View Full Version : Arm Braces & Pistols Legal........
Saw this about pistol arm braces floating around online today, thought I share it as it includes a full letter..... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/03/arm-braces-pistols-legal-fired-shoudler/
OK, I'll do it.
[facepalm]
Yes they are legal, and yes buying an AR pistol and having a Sig arm brace put on it is WAY cheaper than buying most SBR AR's and then filing your tax stamp.
I'm aware that the Sigtac arm brace is legal.....was mainly trying to address that the letter was to the Greenwood Police Dept in CO....which I thought was great that Sgt Joe Bradley contacted ATF to clarify the use of AR pistols and arm braces.
osok-308
04-03-2014, 17:22
This looks like a great option if I build an AR pistol.
Nothing new, easy way to save some useless taxation by the Feds.
Great-Kazoo
04-03-2014, 18:12
I'm aware that the Sigtac arm brace is legal.....was mainly trying to address that the letter was to the Greenwood Police Dept in CO....which I thought was great that Sgt Joe Bradley contacted ATF to clarify the use of AR pistols and arm braces.
Bradley contacted ATF hoping the sig brace was not legal, Nothing more
ChunkyMonkey
04-03-2014, 18:13
Slow news day!
crashdown
04-03-2014, 18:45
Use a shotgun with a leg brace myself........ But to each his own I guess.
I guess this is old news so forgive me for not being some nerd who sits behind a computer and hits refresh every 15 mins or less for every firearms related news website......might be old news to some but was new news to me that just came across one of my feeds Today!!
baglock1
04-03-2014, 19:38
Interesting picture they chose to lead the story. If that pistol just has the arm brace and isn't SBR'd, that VFG is a no-no. Even if the can is fake and permanently affixed, it looks shorter than 16" to me. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.
Great-Kazoo
04-03-2014, 19:40
Interesting picture they chose to lead the story. If that pistol just has the arm brace and isn't SBR'd, that VFG is a no-no. Even if the can is fake and permanently affixed, it looks shorter than 16" to me. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.
Correct NO VFG on pistol's. The magpul AFG is GTG.
XXFattyHunterXX
04-03-2014, 19:59
So i'm assuming people are carrying that letter from the atf with them all the time with the brace on?
SideShow Bob
04-03-2014, 20:07
So i'm assuming people are carrying that letter from the atf with them all the time with the brace on?
One in the AR case, and one for the AK rolled up and stuffed in opening at the end and rubber plugged... [Tooth]
I guess this is old news so forgive me for not being some nerd who sits behind a computer and hits refresh every 15 mins or less for every firearms related news website......might be old news to some but was new news to me that just came across one of my feeds Today!!
I found it news worthy. I'm more informed than I was a hour ago, thanks.
baglock1
04-03-2014, 20:41
So i'm assuming people are carrying that letter from the atf with them all the time with the brace on?
I would, but I'd carry an ATF letter for anything that I though might get a LEO feeling a little froggy (a bump fire stock for example). It may not keep you out of jail if the LEO is a clueless douchebag but the letter is better than a thumb up my ass.
I would, but I'd carry an ATF letter for anything that I though might get a LEO feeling a little froggy (a bump fire stock for example). It may not keep you out of jail if the LEO is a clueless douchebag but the letter is better than a thumb up my ass.
Good advice. Rather scary that a lot of LEO's aren't up to speed on current laws. You can bet your ass there are LEO's who don't know that civilians can legally own Class 3 firearms, suppressors, etc.
I found this thread to be educational.
clublights
04-03-2014, 23:41
yeah all legal ....
till the ATF changes it's mind ... on pure whim ... and everyone that has one is now a criminal.
clublights
04-03-2014, 23:43
Interesting picture they chose to lead the story. If that pistol just has the arm brace and isn't SBR'd, that VFG is a no-no. Even if the can is fake and permanently affixed, it looks shorter than 16" to me. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so.
The story says they used an SBR lower to take the pic " just in case" from before they got the letter.
Circuits
04-04-2014, 00:26
The story says they used an SBR lower to take the pic " just in case" from before they got the letter.
And that's their story, and they're stickin' to it!
I was surprised to see where that ATF letter was sent. Why was the Greenwood Village Police Dept wondering if firing an AR pistol from the shoulder would cause the pistol to be reclassified as a SBR?
10mm-man
04-04-2014, 19:55
I was surprised to see where that ATF letter was sent. Why was the Greenwood Village Police Dept wondering if firing an AR pistol from the shoulder would cause the pistol to be reclassified as a SBR?
I heard (rumor)something to the effect; they want to issue to their motorcycle cops without going the SBR hassle route. something to the effect police need to check out, and then check em in each shift if an SBR. This avoids that hassle.
Person who told me seems knowledgeable.
I heard something to the effect; they want to issue to their motorcycle cops without going the SBR hassle route. something to the ffect police need to check out, and then check em in each shift if an SBR. This avoids that hassle.
Person who told me seems knowledgeable.
PD letterheads eliminate the SBR issues. LE does not have NFA stamps for PD owned weapons.
UrbanWolf
04-04-2014, 20:47
I bet the ATF employee who approved the arm brace was fired soon after he approved it.
10mm-man
04-04-2014, 20:50
PD letterheads eliminate the SBR issues. LE does not have NFA stamps for PD owned weapons.
Yea, of course what was I thinking.........(Sarcasm)
Never mind department rules; requiring them to check the (SBR) rifle out/in before shift because it's department owned; not individual owned. Brace eliminates that issue.
Didn't make sense to me either, so tell ya what, instead of me continuing to defend a rumor; call Rob at Bowers. let us know what the "real" deal is. [Beer]
OneGuy67
04-04-2014, 21:49
As a LEO and issued a Colt SBR rifle owned by the agency, I do not have to turn it in every day. It is locked in the trunk of my assigned vehicle.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
10mm-man
04-04-2014, 22:21
As a LEO and issued a Colt SBR rifle owned by the agency, I do not have to turn it in every day. It is locked in the trunk of my assigned vehicle.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Makes sense to me... But how about the motorcycle cops? That is what the comment was in reference to. Guess it could be locked in the saddle bags; no? Gun shop rumor, like I said.
Further; I guess that is why the letter was written to the ATF by Greenwood Village police. I hate repeating rumors, but to late, already started. If I could take it back I would, because I have no idea of the truth in this.
OneGuy67
04-04-2014, 22:23
When I was a patrol officer, we took the rifles home. The same for the motor guys. Since I am very familiar with GV, the cops there can either take them home or lock them in their individual equipment lockers they have.
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10mm-man
04-04-2014, 22:29
When I was a patrol officer, we took the rifles home. The same for the motor guys. Since I am very familiar with GV, the cops there can either take them home or lock them in their individual equipment lockers they have.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
My response was; "why would they use an arm brace, when they could use a butt stock?" That was the response I got. I am no one to argue with it, I have no idea of GV regs.
Rumor redacted- For the record; I didn't start it! [ROFL3][Beer]
Doesn't Greenwood Village outlaw SBRs though? Perhaps they want to know so they can properly handle the situation if the come across someone in their limits with an arm brace.
Great-Kazoo
04-04-2014, 22:47
Doesn't Greenwood Village outlaw SBRs though? Perhaps they want to know so they can properly handle the situation if the come across someone in their limits with an arm brace.
Greenwood Village is in Arapahoe cty. While not signing off they can't outlaw them.
UrbanWolf
04-04-2014, 23:34
Doesn't Greenwood Village outlaw SBRs though? Perhaps they want to know so they can properly handle the situation if the come across someone in their limits with an arm brace.
Not sure if they outlawed it, by GV is by no mean pro gun or freedom.
Isn't there a little city near Denver where Class III stuff is effectively illegal? We just had a thread about it recently.
Ahh, here we go. It WAS Greenwood Village.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/125819-Local-laws-can-prohibit-NFA-items
Not sure if they outlawed it, by GV is by no mean pro gun or freedom.
When I was younger I got pulled over for driving an ugly beat up car. Got let off with a warning. Was told I should get it fixed. I know now it was really because I looked out of place.
Great-Kazoo
04-05-2014, 11:14
When I was younger I got pulled over for driving an ugly beat up car. Got let off with a warning. Was told I should get it fixed. I know now it was really because I looked out of place.
This has what to do with NFA items. ?
UrbanWolf
04-05-2014, 11:37
When I was younger I got pulled over for driving an ugly beat up car. Got let off with a warning. Was told I should get it fixed. I know now it was really because I looked out of place.
Yep, GV is like that. People live there realy dont understand how to let live.
To add insult to injury, I watched a cop two days ago tell someone in a gun shop that without a concealed carry permit, they cannot legally have a pistol inside their car if it's not in plain sight.
I asked a Lakewood cop about that back around 2010ish when I started carrying and what she told me was flat out wrong.
Yep, these are all great examples of how our LEO's are not "up to speed" on current firearms laws that pertain to the general public. Scary, IMO. Not all, but there are a lot of LEO's who are not in favor of our firearm rights. Not trying to cop bash. [Beer]
RonMexico
04-06-2014, 18:47
Does anyone own a 308 sbr? I am pondering the idea of a 10.5" ar10.
btw I am not looking to debate if a 10.5 barrel is a waste for the 308 cartridge... Yes it is, I don't know if it would cycle well but it sounds like a fun idea.
Does anyone own a 308 sbr? I am pondering the idea of a 10.5" ar10.
btw I am not looking to debate if a 10.5 barrel is a waste for the 308 cartridge... Yes it is, I don't know if it would cycle well but it sounds like a fun idea.
Sometimes fun has a hard time functioning. Everything can be made to run it seems. Give it a go, the worst you do is giggle when you use it...
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
Does anyone own a 308 sbr? I am pondering the idea of a 10.5" ar10.
btw I am not looking to debate if a 10.5 barrel is a waste for the 308 cartridge... Yes it is, I don't know if it would cycle well but it sounds like a fun idea.
A guy at a machine gun shoot a few years back had a G3 with an 8 or 9 inch barrel. shot full auto just fine. Didn't stabilize bullets very well, left a ton of keyholes. PTR sold a pistol for awhile too. Never saw a AR 10 style pistol. DO IT .
gta_spec
04-06-2014, 22:14
Kinda like the Sig P716?
68Charger
04-07-2014, 00:07
Does anyone own a 308 sbr? I am pondering the idea of a 10.5" ar10.
btw I am not looking to debate if a 10.5 barrel is a waste for the 308 cartridge... Yes it is, I don't know if it would cycle well but it sounds like a fun idea.
whether or not it would cycle would depend on a number of factors- given a fixed barrel length, factors for the gun itself would include: gas port location and size, BCG weight, buffer weight, chamber dimensions, and overall friction and sealing parameters.
Besides the gun factors, there would be ammo parameters such as: bullet weight, powder charge, powder burning speed, OAL, case volume, etc...
Could it be made to cycle? Absolutely! would it cycle with a variety of ammo? If proper choices were made on the barrel, then it's probably it would cycle between 140-180gr ammo without too much issues- as barrel length decreases, your margin for other parameters shrinks... build it for a particular ammo selection, and you can make it very reliable- how far you want to deviate from that will be the challenge with a pistol build.
Of course, you could just over-gas it, and pound components at one end of the spectrum... but it would cycle (until something breaks)
Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering, everything becomes some level of compromise... [Coffee]
Kinda like the Sig P716?
Specifically, the CQB 12.5"
They also released a 14.5 "Carbine."
RonMexico
04-07-2014, 06:28
Kinda like the Sig P716?
Kinda but without the excessive price tag.
RonMexico
04-07-2014, 06:33
Welcome to the wonderful world of engineering, everything becomes some level of compromise... [Coffee]
Thanks for the write up. I agree that you can make just about anything run. If this pipe dream happens than I would like it to function with low cost surplus or cheap hunting ammo, basically 147-155gr but I will try a few 168s just for kicks
68Charger
04-07-2014, 06:56
Thanks for the write up. I agree that you can make just about anything run. If this pipe dream happens than I would like it to function with low cost surplus or cheap hunting ammo, basically 147-155gr but I will try a few 168s just for kicks
somebody has done it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nid1ne7QWUE
My point is, you can't just cut down a rifle gas-length barrel, it won't have enough gas pressure to cycle- AR pistol barrels have the gas hole further back than carbines.
As I understand it, AR 308 barrels typically don't come with less than mid-length gas port... so carbine length may work for a 10.5" barrel, depending on gas port size. Will probably have to order from a custom barrel shop, unless you can find one undrilled and have it cut and drilled by Bert.
Like I posted on another forum that posted that letter: It would only be news if the letter said it wasn't the ugliest thing ever put onto an AR15.
RonMexico
11-08-2014, 22:39
Fished my ar10 pistol. Overall I am impressed and looking forward to shooting it soon. BTW I used a cmmg 12.5" barrel
ChunkyMonkey
11-09-2014, 00:15
Fished my ar10 pistol. Overall I am impressed and looking forward to shooting it soon. BTW I used a cmmg 12.5" barrel
Finally!! One hand shoot is in order.
Big John
11-09-2014, 06:09
When they first came out, I thought they were ugly and retarded. Now... Function over form. I have a couple of shorty's with them and will never go through all of the NFA pooh just so the gun looks better.
YEah I'm not a fan of the look either but for the benefits it provides I'm definitely willing to overlook that.
Big John
11-09-2014, 07:46
Here's the new one that I guess they are coming out with. I actually like the old one better.
http://shortbarrelshepherd.com/new-sig-sbx-brace-on-the-way/
I saw the new was coming out so ordered the old one. I like the look of it better. Just came in the mail today. First off I wish it was under 80 bucks. Second, It is sweet. A bit ugly but it is nearly a stock and I'm gonna get the dedicated tube that keeps it back a bit. Lots less hassle than a SBR, even though its nearly as expensive.
I tried 3 different buffer tubes, Thordsen Customs stuff, the SB15, and now I'm settled on the SBX on the Phase 5 Hex 2. Seems to be ideal setup for me after countless changes and revisions. I can say it is actually complete.
52233
I love mine. I'm definitely going to SBR it, but until then...this is a great option.
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/KindnessJr_zpsb1d0a996.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/KindnessJr_zpsb1d0a996.jpg.html)
Great-Kazoo
11-13-2014, 00:21
I tried 3 different buffer tubes, Thordsen Customs stuff, the SB15, and now I'm settled on the SBX on the Phase 5 Hex 2. Seems to be ideal setup for me after countless changes and revisions. I can say it is actually complete.
52233
That a 22 w/ side folder ? I'm dropping a 10.5 9mm upper on a soon to be completed 80%. Never been a rifle OR Other ;)
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