John (Jensen Arms) Open letter

[SouthPaw]

Owner of Jensen Arms, regarding last weeks court case.

http://www.jensenarms.net/JOHN-S-OPEN-LETTER.html

[Musashi]

Thanks for the post
Let's hope this starts to turn the tide in Colorado back to our favor

[asmo]

John seems to be under the crazy idea that courts care about logic or impartiality.

He is suffering from something called 'confirmation bias' (the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses). If you asked people supporting the other side they would say that they were definitely going to win -- for all the same reasons.

[clodhopper]

Geez. Was this all supported by the North Colorado businesses only? Sure sounds like it from the letter.

[kawiracer14]

Is this letter available in non 14 year old girl cursive font?

[Ah Pook]

Thanks to Bill and his team! [Beer]

Let's hope fact wins out over emotion. I know, I'm asking a lot.


Just an aside; The font that letter was written in is just plain annoying. Just sayin'.

[merl]

John seems to be under the crazy idea that courts care about logic or impartiality.

He is suffering from something called 'confirmation bias' (the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses). If you asked people supporting the other side they would say that they were definitely going to win -- for all the same reasons.

Courts care about logic but they don't care if the reasons for passing the bill are fallacies. Time for that is when the bill is being debated before passage. Once it reaches the courts it comes down to does the law violate some other higher priority law (like the constitution) not why it was passed.

[davsel]

The last part of his letter concerns "legal ways to insure that customers have access to magazines of greater than 15 rounds" by purchasing them in Wyoming.
Wouldn't this still be technically illegal?

[merl]

The last part of his letter concerns "legal ways to insure that customers have access to magazines of greater than 15 rounds" by purchasing them in Wyoming.
Wouldn't this still be technically illegal?

For the buyer yes, not for the seller. (assuming buyer is a CO resident)

[kidicarus13]

I'd say Liberty Arms is doing a better job of skirting the 15+ round magazine law than Jensen Arms seeing as how I can't legally go to Wyoming to buy 15+ round magazines and then transport them to Colorado. I surprised Jensen's even brought the topic up.

[TFOGGER]

Not for Wyoming residents...

[SouthPaw]

I'd say Liberty Arms is doing a better job of skirting the 15+ round magazine law than Jensen Arms seeing as how I can't legally go to Wyoming to buy 15+ round magazines and then transport them to Colorado. I surprised Jensen's even brought the topic up.

I agree with you. Jensen's has brought it up before on their facebook page saying how Liberty Arms has chosen not to help fight the new laws but yet they sell neutered glocks, AK's and AR's. I chose to do business with both stores because of their business practices past and present.

[Teufelhund]

I don't typically advocate for more laws, but there needs to be a legal deterrent to legislators attempting to blatantly subvert the Constitution. We should pass through a bill that states if a law is ever overturned as unconstitutional, anyone who sponsored or voted in support of that bill is charged with violating their oath of office and must resign within 15 days.

[davsel]

I don't typically advocate for more laws, but there needs to be a legal deterrent to legislators attempting to blatantly subvert the Constitution. We should pass through a bill that states if a law is ever overturned as unconstitutional, anyone who sponsored or voted in support of that bill is charged with violating their oath of office and must resign within 15 days.

Though I like the premise, I'm afraid that would just encourage our Supreme Court to allow more unconstitutional laws to remain.

[HoneyBadger]

Or how about this one: "No bill can even go to committee if it is more than 1 page typed on standard 8.5"x11", Times New Roman, 12pt font." Make it retroactive.

[Zundfolge]

I don't typically advocate for more laws, but there needs to be a legal deterrent to legislators attempting to blatantly subvert the Constitution. We should pass through a bill that states if a law is ever overturned as unconstitutional, anyone who sponsored or voted in support of that bill is charged with violating their oath of office and must resign within 15 days.

When it comes to CLEARLY unconstitutional laws I agree, however there's a lot of laws that land in a gray area and some are declared unconstitutional that probably aren't and there are a lot that are declared constitutional that clearly are (Obamacare for one).

I think a demerit system would work. Every time you get a law you voted for struck down the court would have to assign a severity of the breech of the constitution on a scale of 1-5 with 1 being "borderline/arguably unconstitutional" and 5 being "blatantly unconstitutional" (points are doubled for authors and sponsors of the bill). When you get 5 demerits you're fired (with all benefits and pensions revoked). If you garner 10 demerits you're fired and you have to pay back your salary and benefits and if you garner 15 demerits you're fired, you have to pay back your salary and benefits and you're thrown in prison for a couple years with a felony conviction on your record. More than 20 demerits and you're hanged for treason.

Of course all you end up doing is making the courts even more powerful oligarchs than they already are (go read Mark Levin's "Men in Black").


Or how about this one: "No bill can even go to committee if it is more than 1 page typed on standard 8.5"x11", Times New Roman, 12pt font." Make it retroactive.

That would work (except for the retroactive part ... that's unconstitutional as it's ex post facto ... 5 demerits for HoneyBadger).

I'd also like to see laws against "Omnibus" bills. Every bill needs to be on one subject ... no voting for a bill about sugar subsidies that has lines in it about banking regulations.

[merl]

I'd also like to see laws against "Omnibus" bills. Every bill needs to be on one subject ... no voting for a bill about sugar subsidies that has lines in it about banking regulations.

CO has this do we not? I see some of the crap that gets filed in other states, blank bills to be filled in later and am thinking we have some decent rules here.

I'd add clear accountability of who proposed (and ideally who voted how if there was a vote) for every single amendment to every bill.

[Teufelhund]

When it comes to CLEARLY unconstitutional laws I agree, however there's a lot of laws that land in a gray area and some are declared unconstitutional that probably aren't and there are a lot that are declared constitutional that clearly are (Obamacare for one).

I think a demerit system would work. Every time you get a law you voted for struck down the court would have to assign a severity of the breech of the constitution on a scale of 1-5 with 1 being "borderline/arguably unconstitutional" and 5 being "blatantly unconstitutional" (points are doubled for authors and sponsors of the bill). When you get 5 demerits you're fired (with all benefits and pensions revoked). If you garner 10 demerits you're fired and you have to pay back your salary and benefits and if you garner 15 demerits you're fired, you have to pay back your salary and benefits and you're thrown in prison for a couple years with a felony conviction on your record. More than 20 demerits and you're hanged for treason.

Of course all you end up doing is making the courts even more powerful oligarchs than they already are (go read Mark Levin's "Men in Black").



That would work (except for the retroactive part ... that's unconstitutional as it's ex post facto ... 5 demerits for HoneyBadger).

I'd also like to see laws against "Omnibus" bills. Every bill needs to be on one subject ... no voting for a bill about sugar subsidies that has lines in it about banking regulations.

LMAO. Maybe throw some tarring and feathering in there as well. I especially like the "hanged for treason" punishment; that one should be doled out liberally. The extra-constitutional power of Judicial Review has turned our courts into oligarchs already; this is a power we need to take back. Levin touched on that topic a little in The Liberty Amendments as well.

[Jamnanc]

The point with selling the mags in Wyoming is that the seller is not breaking the law. I wouldn't think the buyer would be unless they brought them to Colorado. There are quite a few lgs tgat are just outright selling packaged mags.

[trlcavscout]

Glad to see the stores working together like the sheriffs. But I don't see these laws getting overturned ever in colorado. Look at all the legally high people with guns.

[Jesus-With-A-.45]

I wish it was true, but not a single mag ban law has ever been struck down & I don't believe this one will be either. Our only hope is representatives that will repeal that piece if crap law.........which also means, it will never happen :(

[spqrzilla]

I'd say Liberty Arms is doing a better job of skirting the 15+ round magazine law than Jensen Arms seeing as how I can't legally go to Wyoming to buy 15+ round magazines and then transport them to Colorado. I surprised Jensen's even brought the topic up.
I don't think that selling "parts kits" is doing a "better job" ... quite the contrary.

[Squeeze]

I wish it was true, but not a single mag ban law has ever been struck down & I don't believe this one will be either. Our only hope is representatives that will repeal that piece if crap law.........which also means, it will never happen :(

You forget that no magazine ban before this one had the push from local LE to get it repealed. All others were just local folks fighting the system. I feel this one has a fighting chance of getting kicked off the books. Try to be optimistic here, this is our fight too. Many of us have donated time & $$$ to this cause.

[Zundfolge]

The 94 AWB wasn't renewed (and the day after it was signed most of us in the gun culture resolved ourselves to its permanence and would have ridiculed anyone that said it would actually sunset ... and I saw this ridicule right up to the sunset).

Need I remind you of the massive expansion of CCW? If you'd have told anyone in the gun culture in the 1980s that by 2013 CCW would be legal in all 50 states (and 5 would have Vermont Style Constitutional Carry) you'd be laughed out of the room.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Rtc2.gif/120px-Rtc2.gif

Several states have passed laws forbidding the enforcement of Federal gun laws.

Hunting with a suppressor is now legal in most of the US.

Across the board support for gun control is at its lowest since the 1780s.

2 Colorado Senators were removed (and one other pussed out) because of their support for these gun laws.


Those of you that know me well, know very well that I am a very cynical and pessimistic bastard and yet even I believe these laws will eventually go away. I'm not convinced we'll win in court, but there's a red wind blowing in Colorado and a lot of (D)s are going home in the next couple election cycles, and the ones that are left are going to learn to fear us enough that they won't put up a full throated fight against repeal of these laws (yes, there will be a few stalwart statists ... but they're quickly being outnumbered).




More and more I'm convinced that America is in the sorry state its in not because of the advances made by leftist, progressives and Democrats, but because conservatives, libertarians and Republicans are the most self defeating bunch of whiny bitches ever to trod the earth and thus ALLOWED those leftist bastards (who really only represent 20% of the populace) to take over.

[Ridge]

I'm surprised that the defense wouldn't bring up the mass shooting that actually WAS stopped by a reload; Jared Loughner in AZ.

[Great-Kazoo]

I don't think that selling "parts kits" is doing a "better job" ... quite the contrary.

They're not selling parts kits, but factory produced magazines.

[HoneyBadger]

More and more I'm convinced that America is in the sorry state its in not because of the advances made by leftist, progressives and Democrats, but because conservatives, libertarians and Republicans are the most self defeating bunch of whiny bitches ever to trod the earth and thus ALLOWED those leftist bastards (who really only represent 20% of the populace) to take over.


Zund, I appreciate your efforts to bring positive information to us. I think you NAILED it with your last paragraph (and I am sometimes guilty of this too). We need to stop assuming that we have already lost and remember that we are not a weak minority in this fight! [Beer]

[hatidua]

They're not selling parts kits, but factory produced magazines.

Extra publicity might not be the prudent approach on this one...

[Zundfolge]

I think you NAILED it with your last paragraph (and I am sometimes guilty of this too).

Yeah and that last paragraph is clearly a call of "Physician, heal thyself" ... I'm probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to pessimism and FUD so I'm not calling anyone names here that don't apply to me every bit as much.