Employment discrimination question - is this legal?

[rondog]

Got a tip about a job, went online and looked it up. Says that "applicants are restricted to veterans", or similar wording, gotta submit your DD-214.

Is this legal? Isn't this some kind of discrimination? I'm all for equal hiring rights for vets, but "others need not apply?"

FWIW - this is a Fed Gov job, as a telecom tech for the FAA. Technical skills, not necessarily military skills. I know there's comm techs in the military. But damn.....

It sez....

WHO MAY APPLY: This announcement open only to individuals who are eligible for appointment under the Veteran's Recruitment Appointment (VRA) authority.


KEY REQUIREMENTS
US Citizenship is required.
Selective Service Registration is required for males born after 12/31/1959.
Transcript required if qualifying based on education
You must provide proof for claims of Veteran's Preference (DD214)
Required documents must be submitted at the time of application
Drub and security clearances required prior to appointment.

[DocMedic]

Yes it legal, and yes they can ask for your DD214. "eligible for appointment under the Veteran's Recruitment Appointment (VRA) authority."

Veterans' Recruitment Appointment (VRA) is an excepted authority that allows agencies, to appoint eligible veterans without competition. If you:


are in receipt of a campaign badge for service during a war or in a campaign or expedition; OR
are a disabled veteran, OR
are in receipt of an Armed forces Service Medal for participation in a military operation, OR
are a recently separated veteran (within the last 3 years), AND
separated under honorable conditions (this means an honorable or general discharge), you are VRA eligible.

You can be appointed under this authority at any grade level up to and including a GS-11 or equivalent. This is an excepted service appointment. After successfully completing 2 years, you will be converted to the competitive service. Veterans' preference applies when using the VRA authority.
Agencies can also use VRA to fill temporary (not to exceed 1 year) or term (more than 1 year but not to exceed 4 years) positions. If you are employed in a temporary or term position under VRA, you will not be converted to the competitive service after 2 years.

[Great-Kazoo]

FWIW: A lot of jobs also have VA preference when hiring. It adds another 5 points on the grading scale, when sorting applicants by test score.

[spqrzilla]

Laws forbidding employment discrimination are statutory. So obviously if Congress authorizes discrimination in another statute it is then "legal".

However, I note that there is no law forbidding a private employer from favoring veterans in employment. Indeed, "discrimination" is in general legal. We "discriminate" all the time, usually in favor of people with one or more competencies for a job.

Only very specific "discrimination" is illegal: race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, and religion

[rondog]

So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

[kidicarus13]

So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

Welcome to America post Iraq/Afganistan. It feels good to hire vets. Doesn't it? Right? Huh?

[Hound]

So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

I am sure you will disagree with this but I am all for it. For those that have given service to this country and sacrificed so much.. preferential treatement is justified. While they are in the service, they are under paid, often disrespected, work hours that most civilians can't imagine, many times [when they are 'off'] either have a crappy bed or no bed, are away from home for months with little to no communication in many cases, and generally are working in the ovens, freezers or any other hell holes of this world. These are not even necessarily the guys on the front lines being shot at, blown up, deep under water, flying high on dangerous missions or in some cases are behind enemy lines.

Ya.... Do your time, get out.... You should get head of the line privledges for protecting all of us so there is a job to be worked.

If you served and are reading this..... Simply, Thank you.

If you don't like it... Join up. Nobody is stopping you.

[tmleadr03]

So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

Vets can suck it.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

If the position is open only under VRA, yes, that means you're ineligible to apply for the position. VRA and Vet Preferences are ways the government tries to provide opportunities for those who served -- especially the thousands now getting forced out under the military downsizing after the huge build-up to deal with Afghanistan and Iraq.

What doesn't seem right are tens of thousands being pushed out in the downsizing when we're just going to have to build back up in a few years -- especially since we will lose all that corporate knowledge. I know a guy who got his separation orders while in Iraq, leaving him about 2 weeks after returning to base in Germany to outprocess and find a home and job back stateside -- all of this in December because he had to be out by the end of the calendar year. Nothing wrong with his record, he was just in a bad year group and didn't walk high enough above the water. When we get a Chief Executive who doesn't have his head up his nether regions and ramp back up in 5 years, we're going to be bitching and moaning about how there's a dearth of seasoned people to mentor all the newbs.

[stoner01]

Vets can suck it.

Yeah what that guy said....... Wait wut

[HoneyBadger]

... When we get a Chief Executive who doesn't have his head up his nether regions and ramp back up in 5 years, we're going to be bitching and moaning about how there's a dearth of seasoned people to mentor all the newbs.
Yep.

Vets can suck it.
Yep.

[brutal]

If the position is open only under VRA, yes, that means you're ineligible to apply for the position. VRA and Vet Preferences are ways the government tries to provide opportunities for those who served -- especially the thousands now getting forced out under the military downsizing after the huge build-up to deal with Afghanistan and Iraq.

What doesn't seem right are tens of thousands being pushed out in the downsizing when we're just going to have to build back up in a few years -- especially since we will lose all that corporate knowledge. I know a guy who got his separation orders while in Iraq, leaving him about 2 weeks after returning to base in Germany to outprocess and find a home and job back stateside -- all of this in December because he had to be out by the end of the calendar year. Nothing wrong with his record, he was just in a bad year group and didn't walk high enough above the water. When we get a Chief Executive who doesn't have his head up his nether regions and ramp back up in 5 years, we're going to be bitching and moaning about how there's a dearth of seasoned people to mentor all the newbs.


At the same time they're fighting to allow illegals to enlist as a pathway to citizenship.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/178/928/fuck_that_shit.jpg (http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/178928-fuck-this-shit-fuck-that-shit)
See more on Know Your Meme (http://knowyourmeme.com)

[DocMedic]

Here's the thing, you probably were looking at usajobs.gov for the job announcement I assume. If you do a little more research and look harder, there's a good chance there is the same job opportunity for non vet types under a different announcement #. Also even if u did apply understand that the us government hiring system is the slowest hiring system ever. I applied for jobs in Oct and i am just now hearing about them now, and fortunately was able to finally find employment. As for not being to apply to the job announcement because your not a vet, I'm sorry but your not going to get any support from me. It's rough right now for veterans to get hired in the private sector at the moment, I know it's hard for everyone but it's been proven to be worse for vets (specially those coming out from Iraq and Afghan)

i had had to live with this mess for the past 2 years. Little back story about myself. 6yrs in active did 2 15month deployments. Transitioned to the reserves and had the army pay for college (while still receiving my full time pay) and commissioned as a officer for the reserves. I gratitude from CSU-P have TS-SCI and the past 2yrs I've been un-employed even though I had 2 head hunter companies trying to find me employment. From the get go I was told from the very start I already had 2 strikes against me for the private sector. 1)being a combat veteran of this era. And 2) being in the army reserves still. I had applied to over 40 jobs and only received 10 interviews. And I had my resume changed from "military experience" to "DOA experience" and leaving out the fact I was ever deployed. To be able to get at least 6 more of those interviews. I had it explained to me that a lot of HR's used automated systems to grade your resume before it's ever screen by human eyes. And "certain" words deducted your score. I thought this was all BS but talking to those in my reserve unit and doing some self research, last year Colorado had like a 5 or 6% unemployment rate. Well my era of vet was at 13%!!! In Colorado. It's so bad even nationally that the government is giving companies taxes breaks if they hire a certain % of employees as vets. That's why we've seen all these programs recently about "hiring vets" campaigns, because it's a real epidemic.


edit: maybe hard to read due to being typed on my phone. But you get the general idea.

[Colorado Osprey]

Apparently you haven't seen how hard it is to get any Civil Service job lately.... like impossible.

There are tons listed, and if you aren't already a civil servant you can't apply.

After talking personally to the SBA Western States Manager, the reason is the .gov isn't hiring is due to budget. So, if you need somebody in your .gov job, you have to lure away someone from their current .gov job. That way there in no net gain of Civil Servants. The $$ being offered is almost always a move up; substantially. This mean the .gov is spending more $$ but not adding additional jobs.

Also, if you have a Secret clearance you can get big $$. General Dynamics is hiring a Closed Circuit Security officer at $65k if you have a Secret clearance. The same job without is $18k at other employers.

[10mm-man]

Vets can suck it.


Mostly just you! Da'am Jarheads I tell ya.....[LOL][ROFL1][Coffee]

[10mm-man]

Mostly just you! Da'am Jarheads I tell ya.....[LOL][ROFL1][Coffee]


Apparently you haven't seen how hard it is to get any Civil Service job lately.... like impossible.

There are tons listed, and if you aren't already a civil servant you can't apply.

After talking personally to the SBA Western States Manager, the reason is the .gov isn't hiring is due to budget. So, if you need somebody in your .gov job, you have to lure away someone from their current .gov job. That way there in no net gain of Civil Servants. The $$ being offered is almost always a move up; substantially. This mean the .gov is spending more $$ but not adding additional jobs.

Also, if you have a Secret clearance you can get big $$. General Dynamics is hiring a Closed Circuit Security officer at $65k if you have a Secret clearance. The same job without is $18k at other employers.

So here is a question; I got a Secret clearance in the Corps, does it never go away, and you always have it? Or do I need to do something to maintain it?


So this means I can't even apply for it, because I'm not a veteran? That sucks. Just don't seem right.....

I know a recruiter you can call; do the time in the suck, and you to can apply for those jobs. Of course if you can't get in i could see how that might not seem fair.

Also, I remember getting out of the Corps wishing I had four years experience somewhere else, or a degree in exchange for the years served. Every job i looked for wanted a degree, and/or experience. I quickly found out "LIFE ISN'T FAIR" - Suck it up!

[DocMedic]

I heard great things about GD as a .mil contractor but any time I look at offerings they never have anything in Colorado?

[DocMedic]

SC is only good for 5 Years then u need to renew

[Irving]

My company recently hired a vet. He's been applying for years I believe, at least five times. Like a LOT of the people at my company, he has family already there. He was hired into the lowest position we have as far as I know. I think he is just happy to be working. I hope he moves into a better position asap.

[rondog]

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely NO problem with special jobs programs for vets! I know they've had the shit end of the stick in job hunting for years, and that ain't right. It's about time they got some special consideration. It's just that this is the first time I've encountered a "closed door" when job hunting, that required a special "membership card" to even apply, so to speak. I'd never heard of such a thing before, I was just kinda taken aback.

I've never even considered .gov jobs before, figured I'd have a better chance of seeing Elvis, but this tip came to me so I had a look. I'll have to do a little more poking around and see what the process is for us unwashed non-vets. I damn sure ain't gonna grouse about vets getting .gov jobs, they deserve the chance more than me that's for sure. I have great respect for all vets, there's a big hole in my soul because I was denied the opportunity to become one myself.

And as for joining now? Hah! They wouldn't let me in 35 years ago, and now that I'm 58, have had two back surgeries, two knee surgeries, a missing ACL, waaaay overweight, and a few other issues, they'll only let me in Recruiting Offices if I'm accompanying my grandson. And he has a hardon to join The Marines, I'm proud to say! I hope he does.

That "military downsizing" has always sounded crazy to me, I don't get it. But the drive to make illegals into citizens really pisses me off, that's nothing more than a sack of free shit just to sign up more D voters.

[MrPrena]

It is not just non-vet, but company quietly filters out people by marital status, age, ethnic/nationality, previous work, etc.

why is it not illegal? Let's see some example.

ethnic/nationality-
EXAMPLE (MADE UP)
ba&f, D@imler,B@ayer - "person who can speak German fluently. who can understand slang, and business and engineering terminology"
&@msung- "person who can speak Korean fluently, incl. business and engineering, telecomm terminology"
Ren@ult- same shit
NTT D0c0m0- same
&ant@nder- same

Age-
"Oh, you speak French fluently? How many years did you study French? Your accent sounds like you learned it from France"
After telling the interviewer how many years they live in France as a brag.
"How long have you speak English?"

You just gave out the estimate age


marital status-
Ring, get suckered in by talking about kid from looking at interviewer's family photo with special occasions.


Some companies asks illegal questions directly. Age. One of the most odd question was
"We require our employees to take the clients out to dinner/drinks. What is your tolerance level on drinking?"

[werdo] After I got the job there, I drank so much that I had more than 10 gout attack.....

[jerrymrc]

One more thing for those that may not understand the system. Jobs have to be listed but almost everything that has a short window IE 7 days or less is going to be a promotion and a "Hire by name".

When I got my promotion a few years ago my new job had to be listed and was a VRA but it was a "Hire by name" and was closed a few days after it opened. So although you may see a job listed it may not be available. One needs to be able to read between the lines when it comes to .gov jobs.

[USMC_5-Echo]

So here is a question; I got a Secret clearance in the Corps, does it never go away, and you always have it? Or do I need to do something to maintain it?

Unless you got out of the Corps in the last couple of years it has expired. You have to certify that you are still doing a job that requires the clearance every couple of years. If I remember correctly I believe the TS is every 5 years and a Secret is 10 years, but I've had to renew my Secret several times over the last 6 for my current job.

[Great-Kazoo]

One more thing for those that may not understand the system. Jobs have to be listed but almost everything that has a short window IE 7 days or less is going to be a promotion and a "Hire by name".

When I got my promotion a few years ago my new job had to be listed and was a VRA but it was a "Hire by name" and was closed a few days after it opened. So although you may see a job listed it may not be available. One needs to be able to read between the lines when it comes to .gov jobs.

Correct, job position has been written for a person or persons , that dept would like. They have to do transfer, or open enrollment before they can hire the person already slated to fill that job. Advertising a job is merely a formality to CYA with EEOC, HR and anyone else who has an axe to grind.

[tmleadr03]

Unless you got out of the Corps in the last couple of years it has expired. You have to certify that you are still doing a job that requires the clearance every couple of years. If I remember correctly I believe the TS is every 5 years and a Secret is 10 years, but I've had to renew my Secret several times over the last 6 for my current job.

Yup. At one point I had a Yankee White clearance. No longer. Probably for the best.

[stevelkinevil]

I am completely OK with this, and having not read the whole thread (don't judge I have s**t to do) I can only imagine the OP was being facetious.

[MED]

I run into this a lot with Digital Security/Information Assurance jobs. On one hand I am disappointed, but on the other I respect the sacrifice that vets made so I don't get upset about it.

[Dave_L]

I am sure you will disagree with this but I am all for it. For those that have given service to this country and sacrificed so much.. preferential treatement is justified. While they are in the service, they are under paid, often disrespected, work hours that most civilians can't imagine, many times [when they are 'off'] either have a crappy bed or no bed, are away from home for months with little to no communication in many cases, and generally are working in the ovens, freezers or any other hell holes of this world. These are not even necessarily the guys on the front lines being shot at, blown up, deep under water, flying high on dangerous missions or in some cases are behind enemy lines.

Ya.... Do your time, get out.... You should get head of the line privledges for protecting all of us so there is a job to be worked.

If you served and are reading this..... Simply, Thank you.

If you don't like it... Join up. Nobody is stopping you.

^This. Anyone can go serve and get this "preferential" treatment.

[Ronin13]

Considering that veterans' unemployment rates are usually much higher than everyone else- I have no issues with this.

[kfd82]

^This. Anyone can go serve and get this "preferential" treatment.

Not true.

[tmleadr03]

^This. Anyone can go serve and get this "preferential" treatment.

Not so much.

[Dave_L]

Not so much.

I apologize. My statement may have been too broad. I just don't see why we'd pick on vets getting a little boost.

[rondog]

I apologize. My statement may have been too broad. I just don't see why we'd pick on vets getting a little boost.

I'm not picking on vets, not at all, not even close. I was merely checking into a job lead and ran into something I'd never heard of before. I think jobs programs just for vets is awesome, I'd just never knew there was such a thing. I was merely asking about it, ain't no reason for people to get upset or read something into it that ain't there.

The only reason I asked about "discrimination" is because that EEOC stuff has been beat against our foreheads for how many years now? When I ran into a job posting that stated "only XXX may apply for this", I was taken aback. I asked about it here because I know there's so many vets on this board, and I figured y'all would know what it was about. You sure as hell can't call usajobs.gov and ask them! Kinda sorry now I even brought it up.