View Full Version : Caliber debates about pistols are worthless
Bitter Clinger
05-06-2014, 09:36
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.
Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”
He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.
Expert AnalysisLessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant
By Charles Remsberg
Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:
1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”
2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”
Continue reading Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant (http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/Charles-Remsberg/articles/6199938-Lessons-learned-from-facing-an-invincible-assailant/)
At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.
The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.
An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.
Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.
“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.
He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.
Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.
The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”
With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.
“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.
The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.
“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”
Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.
A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.
The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.
Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.
Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.
Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.
“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”
In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.
But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.
In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.
But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.
The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”
When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.
Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.
The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.
Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.
Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”
Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.
He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.
At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”
Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”
When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.
“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.
At least one alteration was emphatically practical.
Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.
Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.
Paranoia?
Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”
http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.”
Being prepared and hoping it never happens.
Be safe.
Colorado Osprey
05-06-2014, 10:49
I remember when I first was in LE in a small mountain community and my FTO (Field Training Officer) had what I thought of as loaded for war amount of ammo with him.
I asked him about it and he stated that if you get in a fire fight, there is no air drop for more ammo and your back-up isn't gonna get there until it is already over anyway.
Other officers gave him flack over it, but I adopted his philosophy and looked up to him for many reasons over my career.
BTW- he also had a bug-out bag in case he had to leave the vehicle behind.... that was some serious ammo and fire power in that bag! For example there was 300 rounds of 5.56 in mags and over 20 pistol mags... for a 1911! By the time he retired he too had given up on the 1911 for a high cap smaller round pistol.
I too started with a 1911 and changed... At one point had 17 different ones. Now I own none.
I think the 1911 fans are an evolution. Most gun people at one time or another will own one or more because there are so many people saying the 45ACP is this that or the other. I evolved....
Long point-- short. Shoot what you can carry and shoot accurately.. even if that is a 22lr or a 500S&W
Bailey Guns
05-06-2014, 12:49
I've never gotten hung up on caliber but I know it's like religion to some. I'll be very happy when someone makes an IWB holster for my AR. :)
That's quite a story.
Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.
Liberals say this isn't necessary.
Good read! I'm not an leo, but I carry an extra 7rd mag with me and my brother gives me shit all the time! I would rather have it than need it, 9mm so not much additional weight for my edc.
‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............
If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at. If you are not aiming and simply basting in the general vacinity of what your are shooting at you are still going to miss your target more than hitting it. Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation.
Then again I am not a police officer or have any experience in being involved in a fire fight. So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
One reason I carry a .380 with a 15 rd mag, extra in the chamber and am getting a concealed mag pouch so I can carry an extra mag with me. All in hopes that the only time I remove my pistol from my waist is to put it in the box on my nightstand.
http://youtu.be/po4nZTO3ES4
spqrzilla
05-06-2014, 15:31
‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............
If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. .... So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
You didn't read the quoted article did you? He got a lot of good hits. The suspect didn't stop upon getting hit in vital areas.
blacklabel
05-06-2014, 15:36
‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............
If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner. Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at. If you are not aiming and simply basting in the general vacinity of what your are shooting at you are still going to miss your target more than hitting it. Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation.
Then again I am not a police officer or have any experience in being involved in a fire fight. So my thoughts on this are probably pointless.
Or... you have the ammunition to put to use when you do realize that you need to slow down. We generally train for center mass shots, he had 14 of them. He had a far better hit ratio than 95% of the police involved shootings that you read about. I don't fault the guy one bit.
This is why I chose the Fiveseven. Lots of ammo per mag. When I carry 1 round in the chamber, 1 mag in the gun, and 2 spare mags...I have 61 rounds at my disposal.
Then consider that 1 mag is Leo/Military ammo and 1 mag is high power aftermarket stuff...I have 40 rounds that should clear kevlar. If trends continue we will see more and more bad guys wearing kevlar making this more and more what you will need to stop them.
Aloha_Shooter
05-06-2014, 15:45
‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’...............
If he did that at the start the fire fight would have been over a lot sooner.
[fail]
At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.
That's out of 47 rounds to start the fight.
In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.
Anyone remember the old "Reading Is Fundamental" commercials? Reading comprehension FTW.
DocMedic
05-06-2014, 15:58
I can only speak from a military mindset of being shot at. But at least for me I can relate with what was said. It's not as simple as "slow down and aim better" Specially when on the other end is a guy who is doing everything in his power to kill you. Yes we can argue to the ground about training in proper fundamentals in all situation, but natural instinct will always take over first before cognitive thinking. Situation Awareness is the most important in my opinion. Your not going to be able to do much if your hit, and sometimes (from a military standpoint) supressive fire and getting into controlling position is the better option, this will help change the variables into your favor were training / cognitive thinking can take over. From my experience I've seen more soldiers get hit from random acts of fire when there trying to place well aim shots, and I believe this happens for two reason, one they tunnel vision and lose situation awareness. Basically they got rounds skipping inches from their head and they rather take the time to aim rather then take cover. and Two they lost their grasp of their position. Using a wall is great for cover but is it always? when its only a few inches thick and is made of mud?
Basically what he did was just tha,t try to change the variable of the gun fight by making the perp come to him IE look under the vehicle and this was the opportunity he needed to recollect himself to be able to do what he trained for.
I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.
The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.
I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.
The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.
My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.
My daily load out consists of exactly zero rounds. Has for the past forty-three years.
Making smart decisions and having a bit of good luck goes a long way.
Your mileage may vary.
DocMedic
05-06-2014, 17:56
Cha-lee Stop Trolling lol. Next thing you know your gonna tell us to go practice IDPA :D
jhood001
05-06-2014, 17:57
He lived. Bad guy died. He now say's more ammo is better?
I think I'll take his words into great consideration and not do any speculating of my own. I've never had to shoot at something shooting back at me.
I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice.
You must have missed this part: "Gramins fired back through his windshield". He also had this to take into account: "Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop."
<MADDOG>
05-06-2014, 18:56
Thanks for the post OP. Interesting reading.
KestrelBike
05-06-2014, 19:06
My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.
Forget the screaming part, he needs a gang banger advancing on him with gunfire. I guarantee he's going to shoot not aiming for headshots, but going for a general hemisphere. Oh, and first he's gotta have the mental wherewithal to draw his weapon in the first place.
I'm getting 60 yard hail Mary thread flashbacks :D
IDPA and IPSC would be more realistic if it was a two-way match. Rather than targets, they could have competitors beginning on opposite ends of the course and moving toward each other while engaging one another. Winner gets to move on to the next match. [Sarcasm2]
Luck or providence is always present. The best can be beaten by the lucky. It sort of falls under "Life isn't fair."
IDPA and IPSC would be more realistic if it was a two-way match. Rather than targets, they could have competitors beginning on opposite ends of the course and moving toward each other while engaging one another. Winner gets to move on to the next match. [Sarcasm2]
Note to self: don't let cstone run a match or design stages for a match.
[Coffee]
Bailey Guns
05-06-2014, 21:17
I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice.
You forgot the part where the head was moving quickly and shooting back at you. You also forgot the part about the head not having to worry about anything and you having to worry about all sorts of shit.
The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit.
The officer was obviously aiming. That's why he got a total of 17 hits on a moving target that was shooting back at him and, at least for a while, behind good cover and/or concealment. He still managed to make 3 head shots on the guy while looking under a car. I'd say that's pretty impressive. Furthermore, almost every reputable instructor or school will teach shooting for the center of the torso when possible. Why? Because it's easier to hit a bigger target than it is a smaller target. Especially a target that, once again, is moving and shooting back at you. You can see it however you want. Almost the entire shooting community on the entire planet sees it differently.
One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.
Correct. That's why everyone teaches you to initially shoot at the torso when possible. It produces more consistent results.
I think I'll echo jhood's words here and listen to the guy who's been there and done that and survived over the silly musings of a keyboard USPSA commando.
<MADDOG>
05-06-2014, 21:32
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/pperron/hik2iu_zps80229ea7.jpg (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/pperron/media/hik2iu_zps80229ea7.jpg.html)
ZERO THEORY
05-06-2014, 21:46
Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and everything else is just gravy.
If I shoot you in the aortic valve, it won't matter whether I used 9mm or .45. Same can be said for a bullet through the brain stem. Conversely, if I miss and hit you with a flesh wound to the abdomen, there's nothing that the larger .45 is going to do that the 9mm didn't. Apply the bullet to the proper place as many times as is necessary.
Haha, this is funny.
Serious question. Why did he go prone behind the tree? I don't have a ton of experience, but I know I can't shoot for crap laying down. I realize it worked to his advantage in the end, but if you shoot someone 14 times and they are still up running around, I doubt that laying down would cross my mind.
Great-Kazoo
05-06-2014, 22:12
Haha, this is funny.
Serious question. Why did he go prone behind the tree? I don't have a ton of experience, but I know I can't shoot for crap laying down. I realize it worked to his advantage in the end, but if you shoot someone 14 times and they are still up running around, I doubt that laying down would cross my mind.
It's called shooting from cover. Laying prone, in his case enabled steadier shots. Also forcing the perp to offer potential head shot by looking under car, which did happen.
My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.
Your suggested challenge isn't much of a challenge. Sounds like less of a challenge than a single USPSA pistol match stage which I attend pretty much every weekend. I know I can quickly draw and effectively hit a head size target at whatever distance is needed under pressure. I can do this because I practice my ass off so it can be done. Not many gun owners hone their pistol craft skills to this level for whatever weak excuse they can come up with. Its easier to ignore the lack in skill and try to offset the deficit by carrying more ammo. To each their own.
Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent. I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.
For all of the people who doubt or need proof of my claimed pistol shooting skills I welcome you to visit my YouTube page listed below. I have many videos there showing me shooting USPSA Match stages locally and all across the nation.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chimpdaddyllc/videos
Aloha_Shooter
05-06-2014, 23:42
Yeah because a USPSA match stage is like being shot at and having to worry about civilians in the zone. I'm not very experienced with USPSA but have done a few. I don't recall anything in any of the magazines or stages with shooting through a windshield. In USPSA matches, your bullet is stopped by the backstop if you miss the head shot. Whole lot less stress worrying about having people make fun of you for putting a hole in a white target than having a kid on a bike in the area. Oh yeah, and I've seen some damned good pistoleros still manage to score misses or hostage hits in USPSA even without having rounds coming back at them.
I know I'm not Josey Wales and hope to never have to use my guns against a living target but your criticisms are just ... Feinstein-esque.
Correct me if I'm wrong Charlie, but I believe what Charlie is getting at, is that when you practice something enough, you are more likely to do what you are supposed to do, without having to stop and think about it.
On a side note, I bet $12 that Cha-lee could do the drill Ronin posted, but at 12 yards.
Yeah because a USPSA match stage is like being shot at and having to worry about civilians in the zone. I'm not very experienced with USPSA but have done a few. I don't recall anything in any of the magazines or stages with shooting through a windshield. In USPSA matches, your bullet is stopped by the backstop if you miss the head shot. Whole lot less stress worrying about having people make fun of you for putting a hole in a white target than having a kid on a bike in the area. Oh yeah, and I've seen some damned good pistoleros still manage to score misses or hostage hits in USPSA even without having rounds coming back at them.
I know I'm not Josey Wales and hope to never have to use my guns against a living target but your criticisms are just ... Feinstein-esque.
PLEASE enlighten me on another form of pistol training or competition that will hone a shooters gun handling, shooting, moving, and safety BEYOND what a Grand Master USPSA shooter can perform. Is there some super ultra tactical timmy training or competition that the top pistol shooters in the world have all magically over looked? I think not.
Sure Tactics are different between an active shooter situation and a USPSA stage. But the fundamental skills required in getting the firearm on target and breaking a shot as soon as validly possible is no different in either situation. Claiming that training these fundamental shooting skills to the point of subconcious execution in USPSA matches is going to disallow those same skills to not be leveraged in an active shooter scenario is complete ignorance.
For all of the people who doubt or need proof of my claimed pistol shooting skills I welcome you to visit my YouTube page listed below. I have many videos there showing me shooting USPSA Match stages locally and all across the nation.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chimpdaddyllc/videos
Those targets don't seem to be shooting back. Yes you can train muscle memory, a lot... BTDT... still doesn't account for the sudden influx of adrenaline and the psychological effects that happen when you are actually in a life and death situation. Judging by your condescending tone, I'd say the closest you've been to one of those situations is when you choked on food, or maybe nearly lost control of your car. I'll bet Cha-lee has never heard the "VOOOM" of a bullet passing through the air over head coming in your direction. Now have that happen several times, in a short period of time, then while your mind is moving at 1mi/min attempt to hit a target the size of a watermelon- that's moving. Actually smaller, because there have been several cases where headshots have not stopped the attacker. Easy on a range, in practice, when SHTF? I'll believe it when I see it.
Correct me if I'm wrong Charlie, but I believe what Charlie is getting at, is that when you practice something enough, you are more likely to do what you are supposed to do, without having to stop and think about it.
Still, a lot of things go to complete shit when you get a no BS adrenaline dump and the physiological effects of fight/flight come into play. I've heard of the most seasoned veteran LEOs, with expert training, weekly intensive practice, and they said their accuracy wasn't even close to that on the range when they got into a shootout. I don't doubt people have the skills to compete, or even handle themselves in a shoot out, but like an old NCO told me the day before I went to the 'Stan: "A lot of guys are talk, but until they're in the middle of the shit, we'll never really know."
Well Ronin, that's why I never said I could do it.
GilpinGuy
05-07-2014, 02:45
Man, the officer hit the scumbag 14 or 17 times and some actually criticize him for his shot placement? "Shoulda took head shots...." LMFAO at those folks. Frankly, all credibility is lost if you feel this. Oh yeah, IMHO.
And no, I've never had to shoot at a human (thank God). But honestly, I suspect that if I had to that I'd:
1: Shit myself
2: Do my best to stop any threat as best I can while shit ran down my leg
3: Ignore folks who criticize my actions because they weren't there
Bailey Guns
05-07-2014, 02:56
I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.
Did you not read the part where the officer said this?
The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.”
I don't care what you do in USPSA...getting a better than 50% hit ratio on a moving target that's shooting back at you while you're moving as well is pretty impressive. I'd also say his training as a SWAT officer and sniper is at least as rigorous as USPSA training.
blacklabel
05-07-2014, 05:47
Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent.
Says he isn't trolling, proceeds to troll some more.
Can we have you shoot a match while I shoot paintballs at you?
buffalobo
05-07-2014, 06:40
Maybe some of you guys having such a good time flaming CHA-LEE should reread op, paying particular attention to Lesson #2(in bold by the way) presented by Sgt Gramins at the SWAT conference.
Looks to me like Sgt Gramins, after the ordeal, feels more emphasis should be placed on training for head shots.
Lobbed from my electronic ball and chain.
Excellent article that we can all learn from. This should be required reading for anyone that carries a firearm for protection and should be included in CCW curriculum. There are many more OIS reports where assailants absorb multiple rounds and continue the fight. My hats off to Gramins.
For anyone that didn't click through to the rest of the article here are more quotes by Gramins that BuffaloBo is referring to:
"
Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:
1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”
2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”
Related Article:
Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job (http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/)
3.) Get addicted to self-improvement. “I realized very quickly after my incident that I wasn’t as good as I ought to be. You should never consider yourself ‘good enough.’ If you have a chance to get to any school, even on your own dime, study what’s going on out there and how to deal with it. Most of the training entries on my resume came after my shooting. I’m constantly thinking, ‘When is my next one?’ And ‘Will I be as prepared as I need to be?’ ”
4.) Fight for something. “To overcome the evil that wants to defeat you, you have to have something you’re fighting for. What do you care most about? You have to want to win for that more than anything else in the world. It’s going to come down to the strength of motivation: the subject’s determination to kill you versus your determination to stop him. Your turn will come — there’s no doubt in my mind about that any more — and you can’t afford to lose.”
5.) Read for recovery. “After my shooting, I had some hard days, some things in my head that I had to get sorted out and work my way through. There were two books in particular that were tremendously helpful: Deadly Force Encounters: What Cops Need to Know to Mentally and Physically Prepare for and Survive a Gunfight, by Dr. Alexis Artwohl and Loren Christensen, and On Combat, by Lt. Col. David Grossman. They’re mandatory reading if using or receiving deadly force is part of your job description, because they bring clarity to what’s going on in your body and your brain.”
6.) Bonus tips. Wear glasses when you’re on patrol, even if they’re just clear lenses. They’ll help protect your eyes. If you can’t see, you can’t fight.
Shoot at targets that have clothes on them. Hits are sometimes harder to see with clothing than when you’re shooting paper. Knowing that in advance will keep your confidence up in a gunfight.
Seek out force-on-force Simunitions training. Get accustomed to seeing guns pointed at you and fired at you — and firing back to win without hesitation. You’ll be better prepared than officers who experience this for the first time on the street and scramble to comprehend that their life is actually on the line.”"
dirtrulz
05-07-2014, 08:03
I have never been in a fire fight or ever want to be but I dont see how you can say how you will react when faced with death until you are in that situation.. This officer was very well trained, maybe he wasnt a mighty comp shooter but he was no beat cop just out of the academy. Sure you can stand behind a plywood wall and take your time aiming at a steel plate because you know all it will cost you is time, if you miss you just have to fire again and time is lost. Well imagine that the plate is shooting back and you may not want to take as long to aim and that time you missed you could be dead. To me it seems like a good idea to take any shot that may distract him with pain and ruin his concentration enough for me to get to a better spot to be able to take a more calculated shot. Even a guy firing wildly only needs to get lucky once, it could be his first shot, who knows. Just the sound of gunfire is enough to throw most everyone off their game.
Google russian special forces training and watch some of their live fire exercises where they get shot in the chest of their vest and then have to draw and fire at a target inches away from another mans head. I wouldnt want to be either one of those guys.
KestrelBike
05-07-2014, 08:51
Says he isn't trolling, proceeds to troll some more.
Can we have you shoot a match while I shoot SIMUNITIONS at you?
FIFY
Jeffrey Lebowski
05-07-2014, 09:13
I'm disappointed no mention that the 10mm would've brought him down. [Coffee]
In all seriousness, very interesting read. Thanks, OP, for posting it. :)
People ask me regularly what they should carry and why. My reply often is whichever gun they can hammer fire through a mag the fastest and maintain the smallest group. You can train all you want and envision every possible scenario your mind can think of and the reality is that when your life is actually on the line and you get that adrenaline dump that's exactly what you're going to be doing no matter how cool of a cucumber you think you are. Now, if by some miracle you're able to slow down and take your time then that's wonderful and you're not out anything. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
This invariably is 9mm over 40 & 45 for most. You also get higher capacity (more chances at that perfect shot in the same size frame) and another consideration is the cost & availability of ammo.
With advancements in ammo technology the playing field has been leveled. Keep in mind that handgun calibers just poke small holes so I want to poke more holes and have more opportunities to poke holes in the right things to stop the threat.
The idea that .45acp is a better defense round than 9mm has never been more false than it is today.
Train with what you carry and be proficient with whatever it is. Then be aware of your surroundings and avoid potential bad situations as this is these most important things you can do regardless of what caliber you choose.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I tell people the second most important factor to consider aside from what I mentioned at the start of this post is which firearm you shoot the most accurately over your weak-side shoulder while fleeing. If there's an exit strategy available to you this becomes your new primary plan of survival.
Auditech10
05-07-2014, 09:37
Very good read!
Im not going to comment on taking headshots except for the rule of knowing whats beyond your target. Thats all I can think about when I read some of these comments.
Cheers
With a 357 sig, he could have shot through the car. Problem solved. ;)
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 09:47
Real tough shooting non-living targets that don't shoot back, dodge, move randomly, and want to kill you. Wonder how the expert would do if he was tossed suddenly into a real life situation without a video camera recording his daring exploits to be posted on Youtube? Fear, stress, and adrenaline are game changers-no matter how much practice on the range a person never really knows how they will respond/act/move. Thank the gods that the officer survived. Glad they are out there doing a nasty job.
There was a debate 2 yrs ago? here regarding the CCW holder not engaging the shooter across the parking lot.
Cstone did a put up or shut up shhot @ pawnee. The ones who said I could have taken the shot were 90% no shows. Those who did participate , lets say a consistent 65 yd shot with a hand gun was proven to be a bust.
Real tough shooting non-living targets that don't shoot back, dodge, move randomly, and want to kill you. Wonder how the expert would do if he was tossed suddenly into a real life situation without a video camera recording his daring exploits to be posted on Youtube? Fear, stress, and adrenaline are game changers-no matter how much practice on the range a person never really knows how they will respond/act/move. Thank the gods that the officer survived. Glad they are out there doing a nasty job.
So no need to practice all then, is what you're saying?
Wait, didn't the special ops guys choose the .45?
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 10:31
Everything about this thread just makes me think of Gabe Suarez's training. He does force on force simunitions training to the maximum extent possible. I don't like everything about him, but I do like his training and gunfighting tactics and techniques.
CHA: What you lack may be wisdom. The missing piece of the puzzle, as Ego is the downfall of many people. You may be USPSA whatever, (irrelevant) but you need some experience in "dealing with the shit of life" before you start jockeying. The stats on this shooting, if true, are very commendable. You're probably going to come back annoyed or inflamed or whatever, but separate yourself from your ego for a minute. Realize the stark fact that there are a lot of people better than you, as there are, worse than you. Either can try to kill you. Also realize that your mind faults you, and you think better of yourself then what reality actually is - the case with everyone, myself included. As to what level this illusion plays out in the individual definitely varies. Your USPSA blah blah applies basically only to USPSA. It doesn't make you terminator. Doing pushups or exercise is no replacement nor true training. Muscle memory is basically all you develop. Law enforcement officers, just like you, with your firearm quals, go two ways when it actually [shithitsfan]. Either they have this officers success, or they have broad side of barn regardless of their ratings, practice, and skills. Really, you don't know until it happens.
THIS!
It's clear you do like USPSA as well. If it was the clear training simulator you purport it to be, then the various spec ops teams, IDF, metropolitan police forces, etc. would be using it for their firearms training course. USPSA = competition. Being good at it makes you a good competitor. There is some bleed through, granted, but overconfidence is a big flaw for many a man.
And THIS! Want to know what training PDs use that you can try on your own? Barricade shooting, and varying distance shooting... other specialized stuff aside, these are the most common. Oh and good luck getting it except in a class, but also low-light/night shooting. Couldn't tell you what's on an USPSA course.
Its as simple as this.....
No Practice = No Competency
Practice = Competency
More Practice = More Competency
All of the arguments against practicing, or competing in action shooting style shooting sports (USPSA, IPSC, 3Gun, Steel Challenge, ICORE, IDPA, etc) to perfect your pistol craft skills not being "REAL WORLD" skills that can be levered under stress is horse shit. That would be like saying that an MMA fighter is going to magically lose all of his trained fighting skills if he gets involved in a fight on the street. Or a race car driver not being able to leverage his trained driving skills to react to a defensive driving situation while driving home from dinner. Or a competition swimmer not being able to leverage their swimming skills then they get tossed into the water unexpectedly. When the proverbial shit hits the fan everyone reverts to their base level of training or competency with a given skill. If you choose to practice a "Center of mass" competency in shooting accuracy then sure, taking a head shot quickly instead of a center of mass shot may seem like an unreasonable action to perform under stress. If you practice to a point of being able to take a head shot competently, then doing so becomes a valid option to leverage if need be.
I also want to point out the FACT that when police departments or military seek out expert gun craft training they are usually obtaining this from trainers who have extensive experience in the competition shooting sports. The world and national caliber competition shooters are the ones that are usually leveraged for improving police or military gun craft skills.
As for a response to the "You have a false sense of skill or an inflated Ego" comments. If you really knew me, that couldn't be further from the truth. I am a humble guy who chooses to speak out on what I DO know about. I know how to handle and shoot a pistol with an effectiveness that not many other shooters will even be able to fathom is possible much less do. That fact may sound like an egotistical response, but I have earned the right to state that fact because I have put in the time and effort to hone my pistol craft to that level. Anyone can achieve the same level of pistol craft competency if they simply put in the time and effort to do it.
Cha-lee- I didn't hear anyone speaking out or arguing against practice. The point myself and others were making was simply this:
Just because one is good at competitive shooting, doesn't mean he'll do great under a real life shooting situation where his life is on the line.
And actually, there have been studies that boxing/MMA fighters don't fare well all the time in street fights, simple explanation: on the street there are no rules and these fighters are taught to act within the rules. Now that's not saying that they don't do well in bad situations, just like the other examples you gave, they all have their merits, and really can't be compared to competitive shooting versus real life firefight. I've seen it first hand (well kind of)- hardcore, take-no-shit-break-things infantry, super soldiers at the range and MOUT training, expert rifle qualification- go into real combat, with real bullets coming back at them, and they kick up more dirt than a tornado at a construction site. They had the "real world" skills, they just reacted a bit differently when adrenaline and all the physiological symptoms came into play. That's all I'm saying. I'm not doubting your skills as a shooter, you're good, real good, but when bullets come back at you and you are in fear for your life, you might react differently. I've never been in a shootout where I've been in fear for my life, but I know enough that I won't react near-perfect like at the range... I just hope I react well enough to hit the target and come out of it alive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0wYqRX7Gs Race shirt, race gun, race mags, standing square to your target in ideal weather conditions on a flat range shooting head size poppers - pretty much IDEAL conditions, but yet I still count six misses. Yet you have the nerve to critique an officer involved shooting that occurred after a high speed pursuit, in full duty gear, in a dynamic environment and your confused as to why people think you have an ego?? [dig]
Everything about this thread just makes me think of Gabe Suarez's training. He does force on force simunitions training to the maximum extent possible. I don't like everything about him, but I do like his training and gunfighting tactics and techniques.
Fuck that guy! He's a POS idiot.
68Charger
05-07-2014, 11:31
I'll throw one other factor in the equation: legislation and their unintended consequences
If you're limited to 15 round mags, and you can't get your hands on 17+ round 9mm mags, but the same firearm is available in 40S&W with 15 rounds, then many will opt for the caliber with highest power available in the maximum capacity available. The advantage that 9mm has with more capacity has been negated.
if you limit someone to 10 rounds, then 45ACP or 10mm becomes more popular- the mentality (right or wrong) is "if I'm going to be limited to 10 rounds, I want the most powerful 10 rounds I can get"
but Rifle/Shotgun > pistol in every case... As the story pointed out, he now keeps his AR in reach (not in the trunk)
Okay? Care to explain? Do you think that he has never had a good idea?
Yeah, he's the biggest douche bag I've ever come across on an internet forum and that's going back to the 90's so that's a pretty high honor in a sea of DB's. I don't attack people personally often on forums but this guy earned every opinion I have of him. He attacked me personally on another forum years ago and he's one of the most unreasonable and arrogant douche bags I've ever had the misfortune of talking to. I don't give two shits who's ideas he's ripped off and claimed to be his own because he's an insufferable prick and I wish only the worst for him in life because he's a special kind of asshole that deserves nothing but the worst this life has to offer him. Like I said, fuck him!
Bailey Guns
05-07-2014, 11:42
^^ Wait...so, you don't like him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0wYqRX7Gs Race shirt, race gun, race mags, standing square to your target in ideal weather conditions on a flat range shooting head size poppers - pretty much IDEAL conditions, but yet I still count six misses. Yet you have the nerve to critique an officer involved shooting that occurred after a high speed pursuit, in full duty gear, in a dynamic environment and your confused as to why people think you have an ego?? [dig]
Yes, failing is part of learning and competing. Thus why I keep diligent in practicing the things I have challenges with and learning what I have challenges with is best discovered under the pressure involved with competition shooting. If I had an over inflated ego why would I even post a video of me failing for everyone to see? It would be much easier to only post the stage runs where I knocked it out of the park to pump up my ego, but that isn't who I am. I use these videos to observe what skills are failing so I can formulate a training plan to fix them. If I only posted the stage runs where I was executing my skills properly then it wouldnt be a very useful training tool would it?
The stage in question is a plate rack of 6 inch plates set at about 30 yards down range. This is by no means, an "Easy" shooting challenge but it was a fun stage to shoot at the match. The majority of my misses were only about 1 - 2 inches low hitting the frame of the rack just below the plates by the evidence of the dirt being kicked up just below the plate rack. When I got back home after this match, I setup this same shooting challenge in practice and shot it using different points of aim on the plates and different types of trigger presses to figure out what the best solution is for this type of target scenario. The way I see it, this video of me failing to hit the plates was a perfect tool in identifying a weakness in my shooting skills, formulating a training plan to over come the issue, and incorporating the solution into my future practice sessions. I could care less if others choose to leverage it as a "See how much you suck....." point they are trying to make. For the "Haters", I would suggest you setup this exact same shooting challenge the next time you are at the range for practice and see if you can shoot the plates one for one at an aggressive pace. After you give it a try and eat a big slice of humble pie you may want to rethink your judgement of others performance in the shooting challenge in question.
UncleDave
05-07-2014, 11:49
Tell us what you really think Jer! [Beer]
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 11:53
Its as simple as this.....
No Practice = No Competency
Practice = Competency
More Practice = More Competency
You are exactly right! Perfect practice makes for a perfect performance while poor practice makes for a poor performance.
Practicing USPSA will make you better at USPSA. It will not necessarily make you better at shooting through a windshield at a criminal who is shooting at you (essentially ambushing you) with the intent to kill you (while you are trying not to shoot an innocent bystander or cause collateral damage in the neighborhood where you stopped) while he is advancing upon your vehicle that you have no good escape from immediately following an erratic and dangerous high-speed chase.
I don't think I read a single comment in this thread advising people to not practice as much as they can afford to. IDPA, USPSA, 3 Gun, prairie dog matches, etc are all wonderful training tools, but your training can only take you so far.
Yes, failing is part of learning and competing. Thus why I keep diligent in practicing the things I have challenges with and learning what I have challenges with is best discovered under the pressure involved with competition shooting. If I had an over inflated ego why would I even post a video of me failing for everyone to see? It would be much easier to only post the stage runs where I knocked it out of the park to pump up my ego, but that isn't who I am. I use these videos to observe what skills are failing so I can formulate a training plan to fix them. If I only posted the stage runs where I was executing my skills properly then it wouldnt be a very useful training tool would it?
The stage in question is a plate rack of 6 inch plates set at about 30 yards down range. This is by no means, an "Easy" shooting challenge but it was a fun stage to shoot at the match. The majority of my misses were only about 1 - 2 inches low hitting the frame of the rack just below the plates by the evidence of the dirt being kicked up just below the plate rack. When I got back home after this match, I setup this same shooting challenge in practice and shot it using different points of aim on the plates and different types of trigger presses to figure out what the best solution is for this type of target scenario. The way I see it, this video of me failing to hit the plates was a perfect tool in identifying a weakness in my shooting skills, formulating a training plan to over come the issue, and incorporating the solution into my future practice sessions. I could care less if others choose to leverage it as a "See how much you suck....." point they are trying to make. For the "Haters", I would suggest you setup this exact same shooting challenge the next time you are at the range for practice and see if you can shoot the plates one for one at an aggressive pace. After you give it a try and eat a big slice of humble pie you may want to rethink your judgement of others performance in the shooting challenge in question.
I wasn't calling you out on your shooting ability. You're a good shooter, and yes that's a hard stage. I've shot USPSA - it's a fun game.
Your hit percentage on the poppers was 50%, and yet none of those were through a windshield? Weird. Maybe you just needed to slow down, execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation, and get the hits the first time. Oh wait it's a hard stage - I forgot. You getting the point yet???
"Carrying more ammo daily so you can continue to fail in executing the shooting fundamentals is a retarded strategy if you ask me. " Wow
"Carrying more ammo only promotes failure to aim at the thing you are shooting at." Now that is dumb.
"He would be better served with daily carrying a reasonable amount of ammo but instead improving his firearms training and practice to a point where he can execute the fundamentals properly regardless of the situation. " - Based on your tireless weekends at the USPSA match. Awesome.
Plink away partner.
Bailey Guns
05-07-2014, 12:14
He's too busy trying to defend a point no one has argued against.
So in summary, he's an asshole because you think he's an asshole? Okay, Whatever. I think the training style he offers is valuable. If you don't like it then don't give him your money. I said upfront that I don't like everything about him, but SOME of the things he says are valuable.
No he's an asshole because he's an asshole. He knows it and doesn't care. I don't care how good you think his ideas are because he's a douche and I'm sure you can find better ideas for less money anywhere else on earth.
spqrzilla
05-07-2014, 12:17
Wait a minute, this forum allows prejudice against douchebags? Wish you would have told me that ...
More seriously, Gabe Suarez is not an idiot. That's complete nonsense. He is an f'ing douchebag, I grant. [Coffee]
Aloha_Shooter
05-07-2014, 12:18
I'm a big believer of recording yourself to see what you were doing wrong -- it works great for golf, martial arts, batting cages, etc. -- but posting them online is not an act of self-education. The very fact of posting them online says "look at me!"
I believe you're a skilled pistolero but where you fell short of the mark in my book (not that it means or should mean anything to you) was in your off-handed criticism that came off like you were saying the officer should have just gone for the head shot in the first place. I like USPSA as well and it's certainly better than just standing in a booth looking at a circular target but it is also a far cry from actual combat. The tone of your initial criticism (and frankly your subsequent posts) gave many of us the impression of unbridled ego; I don't think anyone would have jumped on you if you had just said, "it pays to practice for smaller targets and head shots as well" rather than "it would have been over sooner if ..." . The officer in question is no slouch either and he drew many lessons from his experience which include packing more ammo and keeping his rifle handier.
thvigil11
05-07-2014, 12:21
Man, Purses are really flying in this thread.
[handbags]
blacklabel
05-07-2014, 12:22
Man, Purses are really flying in this thread.
[handbags]
And for that, I love this thread.
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 12:31
Man, Purses are really flying in this thread.
[handbags]
Gotta keep it interesting, right? ;)
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 12:41
This is what I love about the internet. Everybody is ready to humble the world with their loud and authoritative opinion, but nobody ever wants to be humbled with an opinion different from their own. [facepalm]
spqrzilla
05-07-2014, 12:44
I ain't been humble since I was potty trained.
This is what I love about the internet. Everybody is ready to humble the world with their loud and authoritative opinion, but nobody ever wants to be humbled with an opinion different from their own. [facepalm]
You can go swing from the guy's nut bag all you want, just don't try to convince us all we should too. I'll take my advice and training from real men who are respectful and people to look up to. I guess life is easier when you don't examine the source of your information.
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 12:58
Man, Purses are really flying in this thread.
[handbags]
It's a satchel
thvigil11
05-07-2014, 13:03
It's a satchel
You got the Urban Sombrero too don't you.
This thread needs some James Yeager.
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 13:25
You got the Urban Sombrero too don't you.
https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608030501533451351&pid=15.1
thvigil11
05-07-2014, 13:26
https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608030501533451351&pid=15.1
HAHAHA. I knew it. 100% tactical operator right there.
blacklabel
05-07-2014, 13:58
This thread needs some James Yeager.
This isn't ARFCOM.
hghclsswhitetrsh
05-07-2014, 14:18
This isn't ARFCOM.
Starting to look like it...
thvigil11
05-07-2014, 14:28
Starting to look like it...
No kidding.
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 14:30
This thread needs some James Yeager.
This isn't ARFCOM.
Starting to look like it...
Sorry fellas.
Auditech10
05-07-2014, 14:37
[Coffee]
I'da put a first shot through the windshield ricochet off the ground and through the bad guys eye. Holstered the gun after the first shot cause I'm that confident. Oh yea....I took an advanced class. LOL
HoneyBadger
05-07-2014, 15:35
The officer should have just whipped it out and pissed on the ground like GOT.
Then took a leather sling, stuffed a asphalt pebble in it, swung it around and arced it for a temple hit for the win. I'd have knocked out the perp stone cold in one hit.
Cause he could get a trajectory and go over the car with a sling it's more tactically effective and he would have saved the department and taxpayers two boxes of ammo.
He wouldn't have to ricochet rounds like a ninja, and I mean, why isn't he thinking about saving our tax dollars in the middle of this fight?
What a mall cop! Brits would have just beat him to death with a billy club. I hit a bird once with a slingshot, so I'm an expert in this.
Winner.
/thread
Being a certified Monday morning Operator™, with thousands of hours of arguing useless points on the internet to my credit, I offer the following: Practice the failure drill. There was nothing wrong with the officer's response except for the fact that his adversary didn't cooperate by falling down dead when he was fatally wounded. So the officer recognized the fact, and changed tactics, as he was trained to do. He also changed his primary tactics to adapt to his experiences. Could he have made that tactical assessment earlier? Sure.
TheWeeze
05-07-2014, 15:55
He put something like 17 rounds into the guy in 56 seconds. I think he did a pretty good job the whole time.
Not sure why you are attacking me... Check your PMs and stop being so childish. [Shake]
Telling me what to do and calling me childish in the same breath is a sure fire way to diffuse the situation.
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 16:30
He put something like 17 rounds into the guy in 56 seconds. I think he did a pretty good job the whole time.
BUT he isn't a board member or USPSA shooter.
68Charger
05-07-2014, 17:06
Sgt. Gramin's experience reminded me of an old Alaskan bush pilot saying:
"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one"
armchair all you want- but in the end, he went home (but had to deal with ending a life) and the bad guy didn't. The BG won't be roaming the streets looking for less experienced officers to "bust a cap in" (or is that just a west coast saying?)
I thought it was a great read, and I would aspire to perform as well as Sgt. Gramin if the same thing happened to me.
Could he have done something different? Of course!
would it have had a different outcome? I'm sure some would have, but I don't think there's a better outcome than the actual ending.
I read this looking for something to take away as a learning experience- 'training, persistence, and carry lots of ammo!' is what I come up with. (nothing new, really)
In the end, I'm happy Sgt. Gramin survived, and I hope he has come to terms and forgiven the doctor for questioning his methods. (and even the BG, since he paid the ultimate price already)
BTW trot, loved your last post!
hollohas
05-07-2014, 17:48
There are very few shootouts I have read about that the officer had that high a percentage of accurate hits, especially during a prolonged fight. That guy did great and obviously took his training very seriously. His experience is more than most firearms instructors have. The advice from a man who has won a knockdown, drag-out fight is worth much more to me than one who hasn't.
And loosely addressing the theme of this thread without jumping on the pile, I say do both...train more AND carry more ammo. No reason not to do both. If training and shot placement were the only factors, highly trained/skilled officers would still be carrying revolvers. There's a reason even the best LE shooters chose a handgun with a higher capacity.
osok-308
05-07-2014, 17:54
Fuck that guy! He's a POS idiot.
Tell us how you really feel about him. [Coffee]
I just finished reading through the thread. Man I enjoyed it, thanks for the entertainment! I think you should train as much as you can and carry as much as you want. Never can have enough bullets or training!
^
I just finished reading entire thread.
Time for "Put Up or Shut Up" part 3?
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/59342-quot-Put-Up-or-Shut-Up-quot-Thread?
"Put Up or Shut Up" part 1
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/96859-The-new-put-up-or-shut-up-thread?
"Put Up or Shut Up" part 2
Burpees untill collapse then getting shot at with paintballs while trying to engage a moving head sized target???
Five burpees for me then. Warm paintballs not cold. You buy the ammo. I'll still miss, but we'll both have fun.
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 22:26
Burpees untill collapse then getting shot at with paintballs while trying to engage a moving head sized target???
Five burpees for me then. Warm paintballs not cold. You buy the ammo. I'll still miss, but we'll both have fun.
Screw that, 6 x 6 steel target @ 20 yds. back towards target, turn on command and engage plate. Everyone else count hits. Oh, it will be a timed event. Maybe throw a bowling pin OR, balloon in as threat stopped bonus point[s]
There should be 1 or 2 surprises while engaging target (TBA)
OH yeah forgot. 1st mag is fired from a seat you're buckled in to .
Screw that, 6 x 6 steel target @ 20 yds. back towards target, turn on command and engage plate. Everyone else count hits. Oh it will be a timed event. There should be 1 or 2 surprises while engaging target.
Sign me up. 6x6 at 20 yards is no joke, for me at least.
Sign me up. 6x6 at 20 yards is no joke, for me at least.
True story I bet I well under that cops hit percentage
Great-Kazoo
05-07-2014, 23:18
Sign me up. 6x6 at 20 yards is no joke, for me at least.
Everyone says that, till the flag drops.
On his first day back from vacation, Sgt. Gramin did all of that?
Major respect! I can't imagine what he was going through- especially moments after he was going to purchase his eight-year-old's birthday gift, he's in the firefight of his life.
Some points that stood out from the article:
"Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes."
13 shots through 3 holes, at a moving target, all while trying to maintain cover and make sure no passers-by were struck by errant bullets.
"A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said."
That would be terrifying.
KestrelBike
05-08-2014, 06:52
Here's a better idea for the challenge: Standard size target in full clothes at 25 yards. (true, can't see hits). Up close, a popper that activates a rigged paintball gun (automatic) targeting the competitor. So, you shoot the close popper, and paintballs start flying at you. A small popper in the vital area behind the clothed target disables the paintball gun. Of course, the risk that someone is going to blast their own foot off is probably moderate, so not exactly practical on an "open to the public" type of thing.
Genius! But like you said, Bring your waivers lol.
SuperiorDG
05-08-2014, 07:13
For clarification:
On his first day back from vacation, Sgt. Gramin did all of that?
Major respect! I can't imagine what he was going through- especially moments after he was going to purchase his eight-year-old's birthday gift, he's in the firefight of his life.
Some points that stood out from the article:
"Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes."
13 shots through 3 holes, at a moving target, all while trying to maintain cover and make sure no passers-by were struck by errant bullets.
"A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said."
That would be terrifying.
The three hole were in the windshield and it was not moving.
osok-308
05-08-2014, 07:26
There's been a lot of monday morning quarterbacking done on this thread. Sure, it's easy to say "just shoot him in the head it's not that hard". I seem to remember during the Super Bowl "Just throw touchdowns, it isn't that hard". but in a high stress situation, everything is hard. There are no guarantees in life, in fact, the bad guy was still living after three head shots and 14 to the body. In most cases hits to the body WILL work, and in the rare occurrence that they don't, this officer did the right thing. 17 hits in the 56 minutes mentioned, that's 1 hit every 3 seconds! I don't care if you can hit a "head size target from fifty yards while you rub one out" when adrenaline courses through you, all bets are off. It is true that by training constantly you can increase your skill and overcome some of this, but biology will still win out and adrenaline will be coursing through your body as you try to hold steady, your hands will still shake, it's science. But hey, I'm not an officer, soldier, or SWAT operator. But I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.
I have no experience with ending someone's life, but there is something that strikes me about this scenario. It's not like this officer was surprised, reacted, the guy died at the end, and everything was over before he knew it had started. Like running over a pedestrian for example.
After getting hits through the windshield and the guy not going down, this officer had to completely change his mindset. He was no longer just reacting to a situation. He had to make choices and actively pursue putting this guy down. I imagine that it really has to have a different effect on him emotionally, to have been put into a position where he is actively trying to put someone down with everything he has; as opposed to just reacting with a favorable outcome.
Auditech10
05-08-2014, 10:59
I have no experience with ending someone's life, but there is something that strikes me about this scenario. It's not like this officer was surprised, reacted, the guy died at the end, and everything was over before he knew it had started. Like running over a pedestrian for example.
After getting hits through the windshield and the guy not going down, this officer had to completely change his mindset. He was no longer just reacting to a situation. He had to make choices and actively pursue putting this guy down. I imagine that it really has to have a different effect on him emotionally, to have been put into a position where he is actively trying to put someone down with everything he has; as opposed to just reacting with a favorable outcome.
He did what he was trained to do. He did what he had practiced countless times before. He did what he had to do. And he walked away from it. And I gaurantee he will never forget this day. Ever.
Cheers
For clarification:
The three hole were in the windshield and it was not moving.
Yes, thirteen shots through three holes in the windshield.
I'm impressed with that- I'm still new enough to shooting that I'm absurdly pleased with myself when I can keep my grouping to one quadrant on my target.
I take it by your response that putting 3 shots through 3 holes in a windshield is no big thing? That everyone can do it?
SuperiorDG
05-08-2014, 14:04
Yes, thirteen shots through three holes in the windshield.
I'm impressed with that- I'm still new enough to shooting that I'm absurdly pleased with myself when I can keep my grouping to one quadrant on my target.
I take it by your response that putting 3 shots through 3 holes in a windshield is no big thing? That everyone can do it?
I think the story is kind of sensationalizing this fact. It's really no big deal if you have ever tried it. The reason there were three holes is probably because the target was moving. If it was stationary there would have probably only been one hole. When shooting from inside a car the muzzle is right up against the windshield and usually after the first shot the muzzle it poking through the windshield. Just try sitting in your car and fully extend the gun as you normally would and you will see what I mean. FYI: if you have a Glock with stock sights you may end up without a front sight, thus screwing you for the rest of the gunfight.
Good thing I switched my glock front sights to steel!
Great-Kazoo
05-08-2014, 14:22
So where's the head shot champ and this Put up Shut up gig?
osok-308
05-08-2014, 16:59
So where's the head shot champ and this Put up Shut up gig?
This ^^^^
LMAO! Okay then
I guess I'd better put the training wrist-brace on and get myself a hell of a lot more range time... ;)
To illustrate the situation, I am going to have my entire family members to throw water balloons while I try to hit a 12" size 100yd target within 5 second. I will be using a pistol. [LOL]
(btw, I can't even pull a trigger of a firearm over 7lbs weight due to ra on my index finger from 2mo ago).
Great-Kazoo
05-08-2014, 18:25
To illustrate the situation, I am going to have my entire family members to throw water balloons while I try to hit a 12" size 100yd target within 5 second. I will be using a pistol. [LOL]
(btw, I can't even pull a trigger of a firearm over 7lbs weight due to ra on my index finger from 2mo ago).
You know they will be incoming. Not knowing what the distraction will be is better.
<MADDOG>
05-08-2014, 21:01
This may be a silly question: but was the perp under the influence of any drugs?
I'm lazy and haven't researched the background of the event...
osok-308
05-08-2014, 21:03
This may be a silly question: but was the perp under the influence of any drugs?
I'm lazy and haven't researched the background of the event...
I was surprised at it myself
Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.
<MADDOG>
05-08-2014, 21:14
Thanks osok, I didn't see that.
Skinnys under kat hit with 5.56 did the same thing, but they were doped out.
I ran across this many months ago, but you guys/gals may be interested in watching (skip to about 40 secs)...It's long, but interesting (if you are an a EMT, I'm guessing you might like the ending).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= tku8YI68-JA
My personal opinion: the cop did a fine job with the training he's had (and he's probably had more than 95% of the members of this board, myself included) and under the conditions he was dealt. He acknowledges the need for training and shot placement under a shooter scenario. Very few aside from the elite who do enough training under real conditions, or those with experience of actually engaging bad guys, can critique this instance. Enough said.
So where's the head shot champ and this Put up Shut up gig?
We need a place to host such a thing.
Great-Kazoo
05-08-2014, 22:28
We need a place to host such a thing.
Any public parking lot. I am unable to participate, but more than happy to assist as possible.
Close to 24 hrs w/out Cha-Lee rising to the occasion. Like to see him step up to the plate. The Put up shoot had all the ACQB's as no shows, so there be no surprises here..
<MADDOG>
05-08-2014, 22:45
The question that pops in my mind: who wants to stand against a Cha-Lee in a fire fight?
hghclsswhitetrsh
05-08-2014, 22:59
The question that pops in my mind: who wants to stand against a Cha-Lee in a fire fight?
I don't think anyone wants to stand against anyone in a fire fight.
Great-Kazoo
05-08-2014, 22:59
The question that pops in my mind: who wants to stand against a Cha-Lee in a fire fight?
This isn't about standing against anyone. It's about someone making a statement. Hence Put up or Shut up.
I'm not questioning his pedigree. Having a structured shooting comp is way different than fighting for your life.
So.... as i was saying.... 5.7x28mm round ........
<MADDOG>
05-08-2014, 23:36
I don't think anyone wants to stand against anyone in a fire fight.
By this story: some of the evil mutherfuckers in this world will just do that...
This isn't about standing against anyone. It's about someone making a statement. Hence Put up or Shut up.
I'm not questioning his pedigree. Having a structured shooting comp is way different than fighting for your life.
Great One, I somewhat disagree with you. The original OP was about a po-po standing against a bad guy.. So, IMO, it is not only about one standing against another, but also the tools.
In the same breath; I agree with Cha Lee and disagree at the same time (oxymoron I know).
(Disclosure: all of these are my opinions!)
Do I think Cha Lee can hit a target under stress-yes.
Is it the same stress as a fire fight? Maybe; the human mind is a crazy f'ng thing...
Is he better prepared/trained than most of the jacklegs critiquing his statements? IMO-yes. I know g-damn well if I were to face the normal "gang banger" or skinny/hadji vs a Cha Lee: I'd take the former over Cha any day of the week...:)
But that does mean he has the right to critique those who have been in a fire-fight without being in one himself- Hell no. It comes down to mentality, experience, and training IMO.
My opinion.
jhood001
05-09-2014, 00:09
The question that pops in my mind: who wants to stand against a Cha-Lee in a fire fight?
I don't think that anyone here does. I certainly wouldn't. He is a fantastic marksman. And while I commented early in this thread, my intent was never to discredit a VERY good shooter.
At the end of the day, I know my particular job and I know myself. I TRY to know other people as best as I can. And because of those things I know this:
Working a job or doing anything day in and day out without regular and startling events events encourages and develops complacency.
Stake out? Sit and stare at nothing for hours on end and the details begin to blur.
Hunting? Spend enough time in the woods without a stabbing hunger in your belly and your efforts to get that trophy being to wane.
A sport? Spend enough time without a personal or team challenge and you start to believe that you are king of the hill.
Day to day life? Spend enough time just holding the fort down makes us start to ignore opportunities to get ahead.
My respect for the originally posted story goes to a law enforcement person that did a job day in and day out that was probably mundane 99% of the time. A vast majority of us could do that EXACT SAME JOB really well. The difference in who can do a job and who is great is when that 1% happens. I hope and pray that I am never there. And chances are really, really good that I never, ever will be.
And in the odd chance that I am put there, I can only hope and PRAY that I could do every bit as well Gramin did... And I will not, for a single second, look down my nose and say that someone who did a job day in and day out without event, who was then suddenly faced with the incredible, could have done a single fucking thing better.
He lived. Bad guy died. End of story and criticism.
And a big thank you to Gramin... You fucking STUD.
osok-308
05-09-2014, 05:35
Thanks osok, I didn't see that.
Skinnys under kat hit with 5.56 did the same thing, but they were doped out.
No problem. I think that everyone here needs to remember the title of the thread "caliber debates about pistols are worthless" the cop also mentions that if he had the opportunity, he would have gone for his AR in the trunk... A rifle is what you bring if you know you're going to be in a gunfight... caliber debates about rifles can now begin 7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!
HoneyBadger
05-09-2014, 08:59
caliber debates about rifles can now begin 7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!
6.8 SPCII IS TOTALLY THE BEST FOR EVERYTHING GUYZ FTW!!! [LOL]
After re-reading the story, I only have a few relevant thoughts:
1. Wow, Sgt Gramin got really, REALLY freaking lucky. First, Gramin was basically ambushed with no immediate escape route. Bad guy was shooting at his head though the windshield while only a few yards away, and then from just a few feet away through the side window and somehow didn't hit him? WOW. I can't believe he still had the wherewithal to get out and fight back after that.
2. Wow, he shot the bad guy WAY TOO MANY TIMES. I really can't believe how unlucky Gramin was in this regard. More than a dozen center of mass shots and the guy didn't go down? He just walked back to his vehicle and reloaded before coming back for more? WOW. I couldn't believe he wasn't on PCP or meth or opiates of some sort. Just insane.
3. Wow, I hope and pray that I am never in a situation like this. There is only so much mental and physical preparation one can do, and if I ever find myself in his shoes, I hope I am as lucky and quick on my feet as Sgt Gramin was.
7.62x39 vs 5.56 vs 5.45. Which is the best at everything? GO!
No 308 option :(
I don't think that anyone here does. I certainly wouldn't. He is a fantastic marksman. And while I commented early in this thread, my intent was never to discredit a VERY good shooter.
At the end of the day, I know my particular job and I know myself. I TRY to know other people as best as I can. And because of those things I know this:
Working a job or doing anything day in and day out without regular and startling events events encourages and develops complacency.
Stake out? Sit and stare at nothing for hours on end and the details begin to blur.
Hunting? Spend enough time in the woods without a stabbing hunger in your belly and your efforts to get that trophy being to wane.
A sport? Spend enough time without a personal or team challenge and you start to believe that you are king of the hill.
Day to day life? Spend enough time just holding the fort down makes us start to ignore opportunities to get ahead.
My respect for the originally posted story goes to a law enforcement person that did a job day in and day out that was probably mundane 99% of the time. A vast majority of us could do that EXACT SAME JOB really well. The difference in who can do a job and who is great is when that 1% happens. I hope and pray that I am never there. And chances are really, really good that I never, ever will be.
And in the odd chance that I am put there, I can only hope and PRAY that I could do every bit as well Gramin did... And I will not, for a single second, look down my nose and say that someone who did a job day in and day out without event, who was then suddenly faced with the incredible, could have done a single fucking thing better.
He lived. Bad guy died. End of story and criticism.
And a big thank you to Gramin... You fucking STUD.
/thread.
Well said!
One thing I completely forgot about that no one has mentioned: fine motor skills and gross motor skills. During stress FMS decreases, thus making tasks like "shooting for the head" extremely difficult, regardless of training, it's just what your body does.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Back to the title:
I bet Gramin is thankful he was not carrying a .22 or .380.
Hitting the douche-bag in the vitals may not have stopped him as expected, but it likely slowed him down - as opposed to not being hit.
Shooting through a windshield with a small caliber would have been much less effective.
The Spec Ops guys chose the .45 over the 9mm for a variety of reasons.
Having a choice myself, I'll stick with the .45 for defensive carry.
Just Sayin.
Great-Kazoo
05-09-2014, 10:48
No 308 option :(
22mag up close and personal ;)
osok-308
05-09-2014, 15:02
No 308 option :(
The .308 is obviously the best if you have the money to drop on a semi auto rifle chambered in it
Put up or Shut up challenge..... Really??? How about you guys put in the hard work and dedication to earn a Grand Master Classification in any USPSA division and then we can talk about setting up a Put up or Shut up challenge. Otherwise, why would I waste my time to prove to YOU what I already know I can do???
HoneyBadger
05-09-2014, 19:49
I'm too good to show you guys how good I am.
[LOL]
[LOL]
That's sig material. :D
blacklabel
05-09-2014, 20:20
Put up or Shut up challenge..... Really??? How about you guys put in the hard work and dedication to earn a Grand Master Classification in any USPSA division and then we can talk about setting up a Put up or Shut up challenge. Otherwise, why would I waste my time to prove to YOU what I already know I can do???
Its OK, I'm content with watching your exploits on YouTube Grand Master.
Great-Kazoo
05-09-2014, 20:51
Guys, he's not stepping up to the plate. No reason to harass him. He spoke how good he is , his vids show it. he's well rated in uswhatever. let it lay.
The streets a different world.
Mick-Boy
05-09-2014, 21:01
/thread.
Well said!
One thing I completely forgot about that no one has mentioned: fine motor skills and gross motor skills. During stress FMS decreases, thus making tasks like "shooting for the head" extremely difficult, regardless of training, it's just what your body does.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Please don't perpetuate nonsense. If fine motor skills took a dive every time people were put under stress there'd be no living fighter pilots, helicopter pilots, race car drivers, etc. Training is the key. Fine motor skills can be accessed under stress just fine if you train for it.
Please don't perpetuate nonsense. If fine motor skills took a dive every time people were put under stress there'd be no living fighter pilots, helicopter pilots, race car drivers, etc. Training is the key. Fine motor skills can be accessed under stress just fine if you train for it.
I'm betting mick knows this well. Training under stress is key. It no longer is a motor skill but memory...
It's why people train... Repeatedly
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CHA-LEE https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.ar-15.co/showthread.php?p=1618355#post1618355)
I'm too good to show you guys how good I am.
Now, I've seen it all.
Now, I've seen it all.
Yeah. I like it when people "Quote" one of my posts then edit the text I wrote to state something I never said. That is a bunch of horse shit if you ask me. But you can't keep some monkeys from flinging poo. Keyboard muscles for the win I guess.
RonMexico
05-10-2014, 21:24
If there is a PU/SU count me in. I am not a stud but I am always down to meet new member and sling some lead. PM me if you all come to an agreement(location/time)
blacklabel
05-10-2014, 21:46
Yeah. I like it when people "Quote" one of my posts then edit the text I wrote to state something I never said. That is a bunch of horse shit if you ask me. But you can't keep some monkeys from flinging poo. Keyboard muscles for the win I guess.
It was a pretty solid synopsis.
kidicarus13
05-10-2014, 21:56
PUSU #1 and #2 were a bust, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Mick-Boy
05-10-2014, 22:28
If I'm home I'll play.
I am far from the best shooter on the board, but I am always game to hit the range and either teach or learn. I attempted PUSU volume 2 and there were no takers. It seems to me there are a lot of folks who like talking, but have no interest in doing.
Fentonite
05-10-2014, 23:13
If scheduling works, I'll come. I've been out-shot and humbled by many of you, many times before, and I always learned from it.
GilpinGuy
05-10-2014, 23:22
This shit is still stinking? Thought it would have dried up by now.
RonMexico
05-11-2014, 00:04
PUSU #1 and #2 were a bust, I wouldn't hold my breath.
I went to #1. Roughly 10 dude were there and overall we had a great time. The person being called out didn't show but we did shoot and held a comps.
I would take part in the challenge, let me know. I'm no grandmaster, but I get lucky sometimes,lol. It would be cool to meet more members while having a good time.
Tor Larson
05-11-2014, 09:14
...why would I waste my time to prove to YOU what I already know I can do???
Humble- having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.
HoneyBadger
05-11-2014, 09:46
Humble- having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.
As I said earlier in this thread, the internet can be very humbling... But some people are apparently just too good for that.
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