SHTF with an EMP with an Aim Point or Eotech even work

[Colorado Osprey]

I had a brief thought about all the couch commandos putting holographic and red-dots on their black rifles.

Then I thought, these are all EMP hardened right? Nope.

I'm guessing if there is a EMP that disrupts society probably caused from a solar flare, does everyone have back up irons?
I know most people train with their optic and some have back up iron sites, but now the trend is plastic back-up irons.
I'm not sure I trust these back-up iron sites as a primary when you really need to depend on them.


Anyone elses thoughts?

Some say that the electronics are too small to be effected.. but there is no definitive proof that they will withstand an EMP

[mtnrider]

I have no idea of the exact makeup of the internal electronics of a aimpoint but I would think they are very basic and would probably be just fine. Has nothing to do with large or small but more the complexity of the circuits. Aimpoints are probably nothing more then a simple led driver circuit.

[ChunkyMonkey]

To test, simply put high voltage into the circuitry. I know my acog wont have any issue with those [Coffee]

[J]

Uhhhh High voltage is not the same as an EMP. Just sayin.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Uhhhh High voltage is not the same as an EMP. Just sayin.

Yep, but voltage surges in EMP what fries circuits.

[J]

Correct, but impulse duration and frequency are things you just can't forget about.

Applying a 48V DC power source to a circuit might not do a damn thing. Between being applied before VRs and being 100% DC, they could be completely benign.

But apply a 25ms 48V impulse to a circuit AFTER the regulators, and additionally across all inductors and capacitors and batteries, as an EMP would, and you will probably have a completely different result.

Your test is not reliable, plain and simple. If you think that applying a high voltage to a circuit is a reliable test for an EMP you are either horribly mistaken, horribly uneducated or just otherwise completely off base.

I probably have an idea of what I'm talking about here.

[Dave]

Should be good as long as your scope isn't grounded. The biggest zaps will come from stuff plugged into the wall as there is a current going through them already. Basically the EMP would affect the high voltage lines and spread through the grid blowing every circuit and transformer along the way. The household lines would still send enough voltage through any devices plugged into them to blow their wiring. Scopes, especially with a metal tube inside a metal box (like a safe) shouldn't be grounded and probably won't be affected by EMP;s. The more coiling in a wire, the greater the bump in voltage an EMP causes, and since all of our main power lines are coiled bundles of coiled wires they provide the paths for surges.

[Jamnanc]

Next thunderstorm run around your neighborhood with your rifle over your head?

[Great-Kazoo]

To test, simply put high voltage into the circuitry. I know my acog wont have any issue with those [Coffee]

Or my MTAC and XTR's either

[Jamnanc]

"you are either horribly mistaken, horribly uneducated or just otherwise completely off base."

im all three. :)

[BPTactical]

Correct, but impulse duration and frequency are things you just can't forget about.

Applying a 48V DC power source to a circuit might not do a damn thing. Between being applied before VRs and being 100% DC, they could be completely benign.

But apply a 25ms 48V impulse to a circuit AFTER the regulators, and additionally across all inductors and capacitors and batteries, as an EMP would, and you will probably have a completely different result.

Your test is not reliable, plain and simple. If you think that applying a high voltage to a circuit is a reliable test for an EMP you are either horribly mistaken, horribly uneducated or just otherwise completely off base.

I probably have an idea of what I'm talking about here.

Oh what do you know?
210,220 whatever it takes[Coffee]




I would listen to J

[StagLefty]

Next thunderstorm run around your neighborhood with your rifle over your head?

[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]

[J]

I would listen to J

That's probably a good idea.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Correct, but impulse duration and frequency are things you just can't forget about.

Applying a 48V DC power source to a circuit might not do a damn thing. Between being applied before VRs and being 100% DC, they could be completely benign.

But apply a 25ms 48V impulse to a circuit AFTER the regulators, and additionally across all inductors and capacitors and batteries, as an EMP would, and you will probably have a completely different result.

Your test is not reliable, plain and simple. If you think that applying a high voltage to a circuit is a reliable test for an EMP you are either horribly mistaken, horribly uneducated or just otherwise completely off base.

I probably have an idea of what I'm talking about here.

Good to know. A Russian engineer once told me they used to over load power line to test how much they can withstand emp.


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[J]

Maybe before the advent of ICs.

There is one valid point to this test... If over loading voltage to the circuit in reasonable parameters kills it... It will never stand up to an EMP.

But I can put really inefficient over voltage protection on a circuit for $0.01. So passing an over voltage test tells you nothing about an EMP. Efficient protection might cost $0.05-$0.10 in hardware. So it isn't often left out of the design.

So if it fails your test it will definitely fail an EMP... But if it passes your test, you really know nothing... Most modern circuits have some simple over voltage protection built in to the input that will never hold up to an EMP.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Maybe before the advent of ICs.

There is one valid point to this test... If over loading voltage to the circuit in reasonable parameters kills it... It will never stand up to an EMP.

But I can put really inefficient over voltage protection on a circuit for $0.01. So passing an over voltage test tells you nothing about an EMP.

So if it fails your test it will definitely fail an EMP... But if it passes your test, you really know nothing... Most modern circuits have some simple over voltage protection built in to the input that will never hold up to an EMP.

Must you be so smart that you have to make my own argument too? You already won! :D


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[J]

Lol

[BPTactical]

"you are either horribly mistaken, horribly uneducated or just otherwise completely off base."

im all three. :)

I LOL'd

[ray1970]

I was never a true believer in the Magpul sights but one day Rob (at Bowers Tactical) took his own personal rifle and smashed the hell out of the front sight against the edge of his work bench. It bent, folded or whatever it did and then just sprung right back up and was good to go. He smacked it pretty hard. I was impressed it didn't just break apart or come off. I now have much more trust that the Magpul sights would hold up adequately under normal use.

[brutal]

Oh what do you know?
220, 221 whatever it takes[Coffee]




I would listen to J

FIFY

[RMAC757]

Must you be so smart that you have to make my own argument too? You already won! :D


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You guys are killing me [ROFL3]

[Colorado Osprey]

I was never a true believer in the Magpul sights but one day Rob (at Bowers Tactical) took his own personal rifle and smashed the hell out of the front sight against the edge of his work bench. It bent, folded or whatever it did and then just sprung right back up and was good to go. He smacked it pretty hard. I was impressed it didn't just break apart or come off. I now have much more trust that the Magpul sights would hold up adequately under normal use.

I was just reading an ammo review where they were testing steel case vs brass case, slow fire for 10k rounds of each type of ammo. The Magpul sight after getting hot and cold distorted cracked and fell off.
Yes they are probably great, until you really need them.... like when your e-sight implodes from an EMP and you are trying to fight for you and your families life.

"Optics used during the high volume shooting portion of the test include the Aimpoint CompM3 in GDI mount as well as the EOTech 552 and XPS 2-0. Backup sights were Magpul MBUS. One MBUS sight cracked and fell off of the carbine to which it was attached due to heating and cooling cycles that negatively affected the polymer material.

Excessive upper receiver heat did cause thermal discoloration of and cosmetic damage to the EOTech sights. Also, one CR123 battery in the XPS 2-0 ruptured – possibly due to heat – but both EOTechs, as well as the Aimpoint, remained functional at the end of the test. The manufacture date of the 552 was April of 2005; prior to the test, its battery spring “grommets” were replaced with a newer design, which markedly improved battery life."

Linky-

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Also the flashlight wouldn't stay in the Magpul MOE handguards during duration testing.

"The use of Magpul MOE furniture enabled the attachment of sling mounting points and flashlight mounts from Impact Weapons Components designed for the MOE stocks and handguards. The sling mounting points and flashlight mounts remained attached to the firearms without issue throughout the entire test; however, flashlights of the correct diameter installed in the mounts in accordance with provided instructions did not stay in the mounts. Excessive tightening of the mounts’ tension screw did not fix the problem, and the flashlights were set aside for the duration of the testing.

There is something to be said for the K.I.S.S. and use carry handle A2's

[Irving]

I imagine that every optic that is plugged into the wall during the EMP will be toast. I personally avoid optics that need to be charged with wall chargers.

[J]

What optic discussed here has a wall charger? And why would one plugged in to the wall be so much worse than a comparable electronic sight?

[Irving]

If I have to explain my facetious remarks I'm just going to not make them.

Obviously the answer is to install a scope faraday cage like so.
http://www.apexxarmaments.com/apexx-home.html

[J]

WOW. Just wow.

Clearly not a Faraday cage, but the ridiculousness is astounding.

[Circuits]

scope roll cage - protection from a different sort of impulse

[J]

scope roll cage - protection from a different sort of impulse

Yep... the impulse to spend your money on something much more worth-while.

[Delfuego]

You guy are worrying about an EMP over Peyton Colorado frying your optics and your backup sight melt off. I am worried if I caught something from that dirty dirty tramp. I guess we all worry about something...

[J]

Wow. That sucks delfuego. What was his name?

[Delfuego]

Wow. That sucks delfuego. What was his name?[oops]well played...

[rustycrusty]

What possible situation can you see where you will have only an AR and enough ammo to expend in order to superheat an upper to the point of burning polymer sights? -other than torture testing...

Scenario requirements:
Started to type it out and it just looked INSANE. Thought I was watching another episode of doomsday preppers- imagined another 1000lb couple planning to defend their trailer with 1 really crappy built AR and $100k worth of LDS canned goods...

if you are really going to go there... Buy two of your damn red dots and be done...
1 for your rifle to help you deal with *more* realistic situations (the kind without zombies and EMP)
the other is for your 'EMP proof' steel ammo can... Fill the rest of the can with batteries for the aimpoint so it can be left on until the next ice age ends.

All arguments against modern optics usually stem from the 'I'm too poor to own' category reaching for excuses.


all anger in post directed at the creepy fat people on that terrible prepped show

[buffalobo]

Dooooommmmmmsssssday situation of course. ;)

sent from my electronic ball and chain

[bellavite1]

Set you IRON irons to 25 yds.
They are good to 300.
Shoot the damn rifle.
Repeat.
Crappy NCStar rear sight, I can take it off the rifle and put it back on all day and get my hits all the way to 300 (100% hits at 200, maybe 90% at 300 with wind).
If I want to get fancy I have an optical scope on QD ADM mounts that I can take off my 308 and returns to zero like a charm (once you know the zero difference between the two rifles).
Write your come ups for the altitude where you will realistically be.
I am just not going to take chances with electronics.
And frankly, chances are that BGs, eventually, are going to get you anyway, it is all about how many you want to take with you.

[jmg8550]

I don't worry about electronics on my AR... It has none. Fixed front sight and carry handle rear sight. Learn to shoot irons effectively and you have nothing to worry about.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure any digital electronics without some sort of emp protection are susceptible. Analog electronics are much less susceptible. Aim point, EOTech, Fastfire, etc are all digital.

[TAR31]

I've seen some vehicles that were made "emp proof" for the gubment, I'm not worried about a OSA event. Also I'm pretty sure any steel gun safe would function as a faraday cage.

[Not_A_Llama]

Man, I really doubt it.

I don't think your transients are going to be significant. Your main factors around transient generation are going to be field size, distance from source, and wire length. 2/3 of the "problem" is moot, and the last isn't an issue.

EMP typically a concern for comms and power transmission, where you have lengthy exposed wire runs. Comms are vulnerable, because antennas are long, and signals processing circuitry is necessarily sensitive. Power transmission is a problem, because of the ridiculous line distances, which act as an antenna, and nicely collect induced current/voltage.

Optics don't have a very long "antenna" length. You have to take your line integral over the wire path. Figure your sum-total non-loop wirepath in a modern electronic optic is well short of 1/4m (I suspect I'm high by an order of magnitude). What kind of flux density do you need to induce any kind of significant voltage in a path that short?

Pragmatically, if you're close enough to an EMF event able to generate that kind of voltage inside of a metal can with minimal exposed wiring, the generating event probably has rendered you inert. Particularly in Colorado, given that we wear "kick me" signs on our backs, in the form of NORAD, Air Force bases, and US Space Command.

[HoneyBadger]

Man, I really doubt it.

I don't think your transients are going to be significant. Your main factors around transient generation are going to be field size, distance from source, and wire length. 2/3 of the "problem" is moot, and the last isn't an issue.

EMP typically a concern for comms and power transmission, where you have lengthy exposed wire runs. Comms are vulnerable, because antennas are long, and signals processing circuitry is necessarily sensitive. Power transmission is a problem, because of the ridiculous line distances, which act as an antenna, and nicely collect induced current/voltage.

Optics don't have a very long "antenna" length. You have to take your line integral over the wire path. Figure your sum-total non-loop wirepath in a modern electronic optic is well short of 1/4m (I suspect I'm high by an order of magnitude). What kind of flux density do you need to induce any kind of significant voltage in a path that short?

Pragmatically, if you're close enough to an EMF event able to generate that kind of voltage inside of a metal can with minimal exposed wiring, the generating event probably has rendered you inert. Particularly in Colorado, given that we wear "kick me" signs on our backs, in the form of NORAD, Air Force bases, and US Space Command.
Good insight, thanks.

Either way, my RM05 is good to go all the time :D

[Marlboro Man]

I use an Aimpoint 4x32, and a Sight Mark holographic., and I'm also going to pick up some flip up irons too. Can't have enough backup. I know Mr. Murphy personally! Lol

[vectorsc]

Wow. That sucks delfuego. What was his name?

An appropriate comeback would have been "J". Still, my big wondering is how much EMP shedding the aimpoint will actually do due the fact that IT is a faraday cage itself with no exposed electronic pickups.

[ColoWyo]

I have a stupid question. What about your safe with a digital combination pad? Would you be able to get in to your safe? Not that I have one. But have been thinking of another safe. It won't have digital combo on it.

[HoneyBadger]

Probably wouldn't open without a manual override (manual dial, key, etc)

[Irving]

I have a stupid question. What about your safe with a digital combination pad? Would you be able to get in to your safe? Not that I have one. But have been thinking of another safe. It won't have digital combo on it.

I recommend one of these.

CZ8WRDVgKrk