Another sign how CO is failing

[Great-Kazoo]

Not so much the BB gun itself but how the story begins, AND ends.
http://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/local/2014/06/04/bb-gun-scare-puts-hospital-temporary-lockdown/9981477/

Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins was briefly put on lockdown — meaning nobody was allowed in or out — Wednesday afternoon following a report of a man with a gun sitting in his car on the building's east side.

Thank you for informing us what LOCK DOWN means


The lockdown lasted 4 minutes and was lifted just before 4:15 p.m. when 24-year-old Austin M. Devore was arrested on suspicion of felony menacing, criminal mischief, and possession of heroin and drug paraphernalia.

The gun, a black replica of an assault rifle, was determined to be a BB gun.
Witnesses reported to police that Devore allegedly pointed the fake gun in several directions while sitting in a gray Dodge Neon in the hospital parking lot.

Nice to see Drug possession is once again last when mentioning the "suspect" A dodge Neon, how can anyone driving a neon be taken seriously [Sarcasm2] for the serious among us, who have no sense of humor

A man going to the hospital to visit his girlfriend and newborn baby, and confronted by the scene with several police cars, stopped to talk with a police sergeant about the situation. He went inside the hospital minutes after, saying, "With my girlfriend and baby, it's just kind of scary, you know?"


No i don't know. WHY because i choose to protect myself. Ft Collins was lost some time ago. This comment, among other like minded organisms hasn't sunk the ship. It drilled the holes allowing it to sink, willingly

[Rucker61]

It's the Coloradoan, Colorado's favorite high school newspaper. What do you expect?

[Colorado_Outback]

How do they have the authority to detain you?

Edit: Hospital employees/ security I mean. Now any one can be detained by a business or building owner under the guise of public safety?

[ZERO THEORY]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly. So he was pointing the fascimile weapon at people in the parking lot? If so, I don't see the problem with locking down the hospital if you think a guy armed with a carbine is in the lot losing his shit. And if he was just pointing it around indiscriminately at trees or whatever, I'm still not gonna rip them for that. How were they to know that:

A) It wasn't an actual rifle?
B) He's not some certifiably insane man who's hallucinating/trying to decide what to shoot/etc?

Also, I think the man in the last paragraph is saying that it's scary to have the police come swarming in and pulling out a reportedly armed man. Can't really fault him on that, either. Sorry Kazoo but I'm either missing something or in disagreement here. Doesn't help that the article is written like an ESL paper.

[kidicarus13]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly. So he was pointing the fascimile weapon at people in the parking lot? If so, I don't see the problem with locking down the hospital if you think a guy armed with a carbine is in the lot losing his shit. And if he was just pointing it around indiscriminately at trees or whatever, I'm still not gonna rip them for that. How were they to know that:

A) It wasn't an actual rifle?
B) He's not some certifiably insane man who's hallucinating/trying to decide what to shoot/etc?



That's how I see it. The opposite side of the coin goes like this... it is a real gun and 10 minutes after the witness reports the man with a gun, the gunman goes on a shooting spree inside the hospital killing 20 people. Then everyone would be like WTF?! Law enforcement was advised of the situation 10 minutes prior and did nothing? Cops are worthless.

[Whistler]

Ha! I just did that a few weeks ago (not at a hospital). Bought the grandkids another air rifle at Walmart but the wife wanted to stop on the way home at some nail place or something in a strip mall. Was bored sitting in the truck, unpacked the air rifle and was checking it out luckily SWAT didn't descend though that never occurred to me. I can see cops being called, better safe than sorry I guess but the article should have been clear he got the ride for heroin and reportedly shooting at a parked car not play up the "man with gun" angle. Not enough details to express an opinion on "felony menacing" the article only states he was "allegedly pointing the fake gun in several directions".

[Colorado_Outback]

Sorry but if a non-LEO tries to detain me in any way its not going to go well, regardless of any threat may or may not be present.

[crashdown]

Actual article:
Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins was briefly put on lockdown — meaning nobody was allowed in or out — Wednesday afternoon following a report of a man with a gun sitting in his car on the building's east side.

The lockdown lasted 4 minutes and was lifted just before 4:15 p.m. when 24-year-old Austin M. Devore was arrested on suspicion of felony menacing, criminal mischief, and possession of heroin and drug paraphernalia.
The gun, a black replica of an assault rifle, was determined to be a BB gun.
Witnesses reported to police that Devore allegedly pointed the fake gun in several directions while sitting in a gray Dodge Neon in the hospital parking lot. They also said he reportedly shot at and caused damage to a parked car.

Sorry, but locking the doors so a guy with a gun might not be able to get in is going to mean some people might not be able to get out either.
I'm sure no hospital employee wants to stand at a glass door with a key letting people out when there could be a dude with rifle about to shoot his way in.
... and yes, the felony charges should be listed before misdemeanor charges in my opinion.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly. So he was pointing the fascimile weapon at people in the parking lot? If so, I don't see the problem with locking down the hospital if you think a guy armed with a carbine is in the lot losing his shit. And if he was just pointing it around indiscriminately at trees or whatever, I'm still not gonna rip them for that. How were they to know that:

A) It wasn't an actual rifle?
B) He's not some certifiably insane man who's hallucinating/trying to decide what to shoot/etc?

Also, I think the man in the last paragraph is saying that it's scary to have the police come swarming in and pulling out a reportedly armed man. Can't really fault him on that, either. Sorry Kazoo but I'm either missing something or in disagreement here. Doesn't help that the article is written like an ESL paper.

He was saying it's scary someone with a possible gun is in the parking lot. You know. The typical , It's such a quiet neighborhood mentality.

With my girlfriend and baby, it's just kind of scary, you know?"

[ZERO THEORY]

Well, I dunno. I don't really have a frame of reference on this one and the details are few and far between. It's a wash for me. Next up?

[newracer]

This morning at the same hospital the police shot a guy with a knife.

http://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/local/2014/06/05/fort-collins-police-shoot-man-knife/10007971/

[cmailliard]

How do they have the authority to detain you?

Edit: Hospital employees/ security I mean. Now any one can be detained by a business or building owner under the guise of public safety?

They can't and it would be interesting to see an outcome of this. Same issue came up at another hospital during a bomb threat. They let people leave as they please.

[Colorado_Outback]

][/B]
Sorry, but locking the doors so a guy with a gun might not be able to get in is going to mean some people might not be able to get out either.
I'm sure no hospital employee wants to stand at a glass door with a key letting people out when there could be a dude with rifle about to shoot his way in.
... and yes, the felony charges should be listed before misdemeanor charges in my opinion.

Sorry, but that's crap.
Restricting access is one thing, the building owner has the right to do that at his discretion . Telling everyone inside the building they arnt allowed to leave, not so much.

If I find myself in that situation, ill have no problem letting my self out (via the emergency exit).

[kidicarus13]

This morning at the same hospital the police shot a guy with a knife.

http://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/local/2014/06/05/fort-collins-police-shoot-man-knife/10007971/

Hickenlooper's first goon didn't follow through as planned so he had to send in goon #2. [Sarcasm2]

[crashdown]

Sorry, but that's crap.
Restricting access is one thing, the building owner has the right to do that at his discretion . Telling everyone inside the building they arnt allowed to leave, not so much.

If I find myself in that situation, ill have no problem letting my self out (via the emergency exit).

I disagree with your disagree and raise you another argument....[Beer]

4 minutes is hardly enough time to sort things out.
Active shooter in the front parking lot, sure the back emergency exit make sense. But.... that was how the whole Aurora shooting happened was an open (one way) emergency exit. If the hospital had any type of real security, they would be aware that a second shooter could be possibility and that the emergency exits should be secured too. I would hate being detained by any mallcop too, but it might be for the greater good.

[Colorado_Outback]

I disagree with your disagree and raise you another argument....[Beer]

4 minutes is hardly enough time to sort things out.
Active shooter in the front parking lot, sure the back emergency exit make sense. But.... that was how the whole Aurora shooting happened was an open (one way) emergency exit. If the hospital had any type of real security, they would be aware that a second shooter could be possibility and that the emergency exits should be secured too. I would hate being detained by any mallcop too, but it might be for the greater good.

Ohhh I forgot that "the greater good" trumps everyone's rights now a days.

Ill happily bring the lawsuit if put in that position, its illegal. Plain and simple.

[crashdown]

Ohhh I forgot that "the greater good" trumps everyone's rights now a days.

Ill happily bring the lawsuit if put in that position, its illegal. Plain and simple.

I am not sure of the legalities of the hospital trying to prevent people from leaving for a few minutes, but if there was some mass exit out of every available door, the hospital wouldn't be able to prevent someone from coming in either (which you said was the owners right). Even if they had the manpower, and the manpower was equipped to let people out while preventing a shooter from coming in, it would take more than 4 minutes to organize and put in place.
I guess my argument is more one of thinking this out, and not so black and white. If you had a child alone in a hospital room and an active shooter was able to get in because the hospital left the doors open knowing that a shooter was outside, you might think differently.

Looks like they legally can prevent leaving:
In hospitals In US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) guidelines, occasions for preventing entry into a hospital may include: power failure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_failure), earthquake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake), flooding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding), fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire), bomb threat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_threat), hostage crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage_crisis) and active shooter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown#cite_note-cal-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown#cite_note-Iroquois-2) Occasions for preventing both entry and exit from a hospital may include: external contamination, civil disturbance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disturbance) and abduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abduction) of an infant or child.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown#cite_note-cal-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown#cite_note-Iroquois-2)

[newracer]

Guidelines are not laws.

[Colorado_Outback]

What if it was a McDonalds? There is a disgruntled hobo out front, I think I saw him put a gun in his coat.. or maybe it was a bottle of piss. LOCKDOWN!

Mass amount of people leaving? 99% of the sheeple out there would be happy that the hospital is illegally detaining them and their "security force" is keeping them "safe".

I'm not going to start a riot, I'm going to leave.

I'm a single dad, my son was hospitalized multiple times in his first year. I don't feel any differently about my previous statements. I'm responsable for his safety and security 100%. Not the hospital, not the police nobody but me. I don't rely on the police for safety/security when I'm out in public why would I rely on some twatwaffle mall cop when I'm in a private building?

[crashdown]

I guess I won't subtly make my point which is funny because I don't really disagree with you.

So....
Active shooter/ shooters outside (and most shooters want to get inside the theater, school, church, hospital, whatever), everyone go to each exit and swing the doors open to do what you please..... bedridden terminal cancer patients might even thank you.

And on a lighter note.... what if the hospital was told by the police not to let anyone in or out?

[Colorado_Outback]

I guess I won't subtly make my point which is funny because I don't really disagree with you.

So....
Active shooter/ shooters outside (and most shooters want to get inside the theater, school, church, hospital, whatever), everyone go to each exit and swing the doors open to do what you please..... bedridden terminal cancer patients might even thank you.

And on a lighter note.... what if the hospital was told by the police not to let anyone in or out?

Haha, I dont disagree with you either. That's why I would be looking to make my escape instead of hide in a room waiting to be shot. Given the opportunity ill be considerate and pull the door closed behind me.

The more I think about it the legality of it doesn't matter much at all. Attract enough attention to your self in a situation like that and you'll end up getting charged with something.

But seriously though, if I want to exit the building and potentially face an active shooter, or a half asleep heroin addict in his car with a bb gun isn't that my right?

http://anongallery.org/img/6645/im-sorry-i-thought-this-was-america-randy-marsh-south-park.jpg

Haha.

Gotta punch the clock at job #2, ill catch you fellas later.

[Jer]

I tend to side with freedom & liberty on this one. If I want to leave... I'm leaving. There is nothing that says I can't (other than some company rules which I never agreed to) and everything saying I can. If I'm being arrested they can detain me otherwise I'm free to go and this includes a hospital. I also would rather take my chances outside with my firearm and ability to flee than trapped inside with the other sheeple just hoping the big bad man doesn't come in and start mowing everyone down. It seems that keeping large groups trapped inside of buildings against their will is exactly what these gunmen want anyway. The more the better in their minds so we're going to give them exactly what they want? Seems smart.

[fitz19d]

Dude, doors open out always, they are locked from the exterior..... does mean they just wait for someone to come out or piggy back in. Most hospitals do have large panes of glass that make great entries.


Actual article:
Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins was briefly put on lockdown — meaning nobody was allowed in or out — Wednesday afternoon following a report of a man with a gun sitting in his car on the building's east side.

The lockdown lasted 4 minutes and was lifted just before 4:15 p.m. when 24-year-old Austin M. Devore was arrested on suspicion of felony menacing, criminal mischief, and possession of heroin and drug paraphernalia.
The gun, a black replica of an assault rifle, was determined to be a BB gun.
Witnesses reported to police that Devore allegedly pointed the fake gun in several directions while sitting in a gray Dodge Neon in the hospital parking lot. They also said he reportedly shot at and caused damage to a parked car.

Sorry, but locking the doors so a guy with a gun might not be able to get in is going to mean some people might not be able to get out either.
I'm sure no hospital employee wants to stand at a glass door with a key letting people out when there could be a dude with rifle about to shoot his way in.
... and yes, the felony charges should be listed before misdemeanor charges in my opinion.

[fitz19d]

EDIT: Initially thought you meant if you did something getting detained. In terms of letting people out, no they generally dont do that. They would right at the exit this was happening request people to use another exit, but then again the guys at this building of 4 are a special brand of stupid. As far as the lockdown, it usually takes them far too long to get one started, and by the time they started it was likely overidden by house sup/admin/or security themselves because it had already been found to be apparerent it was a dude with a toy.

As far as the other armchair quaterbacking, some unlrealistic expectations even if you had capable people like at my new location. Stop and think about the size of campus, then imagine 4 guys on foot and the number of doors that are manually locked. Reality is aside from fighting the crazy/druggies in the ED, hospital security is all customer service and a token show of safety. Most places the security isn't even armed.

I believe he was arrested by PD. The PVHS now university of CO health security is pretty neutered held in check other than random mall ninjas like I posted about ayear ago with the epic shooting class fail.

However, at my current hospital things are much more aggressive but not retarded. Issue so many trespass noticed for folk acting a fool. If you do something outright criminal directed at the hospital (strike a nurse, go nuts breaking stuff, that kinda thing you bet you are getting restrained and charges filed.) I have court this coming just this week to testify in a criminal case, though that one admittedly was a patient on a hold that got violent trying to leave.

You won't see anyone that wants to keep a job going off property and even usually in the parking lots if not some kind of big threat would be turned over to PD.


How do they have the authority to detain you?

Edit: Hospital employees/ security I mean. Now any one can be detained by a business or building owner under the guise of public safety?

[funkymonkey1111]

what if you needed to get out of the hospital and lay down suppressive fire and you're stymied by this lockdown? ridiculous!

[cmailliard]

There are zero laws that allow a hospital (or any business afaik) to detain a person inside their building. Even a patient (except those on MH holds) can leave AMA (Against Medical Advice). Even in a Code Pink (common code for infant abduction in a hospital) all the facility can do is stop and question people. If LE wants to detain someone that is LE doing it not the facility.

[fitz19d]

You just said stop and question vs can't detain. Which is it?

In code pinks 2 hospitals I've seen 2 policies. One if you have the abductor for sure it was do anything possible to stop them without risking the infant. The other one was a more observe/report details type of situation.

More specific circumstances should be given because otherwise what do you say to loss prevention who detain shoplifters and hold them for police?

MH holds are very easy to be placed, though it is on the person who placed it if they did it unduly. I'll admit i've seen people required to stay who I thought was stupid, and people that shouldnt be allowed out the door set free. Granted i'm not a psychologist but I'm talking ones that 9/10 here would agree if theyd seen. It is very rare for anyone to actually be physically forced to stay, those that do are the ones extremely obvious they arn't going anywhere anyway. (Extremely disturbed or ETOH.)