Why buy Kel-Tec?

[davsel]

I keep seeing "deals" on Kel-Tec weapons, and hear about demand overpowering supply.
I just do not understand why the demand is so high for a company who has only ever had one (1) government contract for a grand total of $3035.
I understand that many people can not afford more expensive weapons, but why stake your life on a weapon created by a company pushing out "unique" weapons that are often knockoffs of quality products produced by companies with hundreds of millions of dollars in government contract awards. Or, are they just meant to be fun guns to blow some cash on?

I just don't get it. What am I missing?

[Wulf202]

They're still worlds better than Taurus

[sniper7]

So because the government buys it makes it better? Serious question


i like their stuff for the innovative designs and affordable prices. Who else has a 30 round 22 mag pistol? A dual tubed 12 guage?

why do we spend money on Russian made guns like saiga? I love my 12. Probably the most enjoyable gun to shoot in my collection. Shooting 20 rounds of 12 guage always puts a smile on my face and doesn't break the bank.

most of the fun guns I don't stake my life on and don't carry every day. They get in the rotation when I go shoot and I have a good time shooting them

[mtnrider]

I think the only weapons they really have a back log on are ones like the Sub-200 and KSG. I have owned a Sub-2000 and it was every bit as reliable is every other firearm in my collection. I have a KSG on my wish list. Not really interested in anything else they produce though.

[TFOGGER]

I like my little P11 9mm. At the time that I bought it(3 years before the Ruger LCP), it was fairly unique in the industry: an inexpensive, light weight pocket pistol in 9mm (not .380). It is smaller and lighter than a PPK in .380(and less than half the price!), and carries 11 rounds of serious defensive ammo. They also offered it in .40 at one time, but discontinued it due to complaints about the recoil. Mine may have the worst trigger of any weapon I've ever owned, but it is reliable and reasonably accurate, holding about 3-4 inch groups at 15yds freestanding. Is it a Glock 26? No, but it is about 60% of the bulk, and conceals nicely in situations where my Glock might be too bulky. It wouldn't be my first choice as a defensive weapon in most situations, but it definitely fills a need for me.

[Bailey Guns]

I own or have owned several Kel-Tec guns. All have been as reliable as any other gun I've owned at a fraction of the price (except for the RFB). And what does having a .gov contract have to do with anything? I frequently carry a PF9 because it's small, light and it works all time. The SU-16 family of rifles are very accurate and lightweight. What's not to like about a rifle that folds up, weighs less than 5 lbs, shoots 5.56 out of AR mags, stores an extra mag or two in butt stock and is reliable?

Have you ever owned a Kel-Tec, OP? Or are you just repeating things you've read online?

And there's a reason they have a tremendous backlog that will take them months, if not a year or more, to fill on certain guns. It's certainly not because they make guns that don't work well.

And what guns do they produce that are unique yet knock-offs of other guns?

Most of their guns may not hold up to extended, heavy-duty use (again, the RFB might be an exception). But they're certainly priced right and they do fill a niche for people who don't have a Sig or Kimber or HK budget.

[Zundfolge]

...a weapon created by a company pushing out "unique" weapons that are often knockoffs of quality products produced by companies with hundreds of millions of dollars in government contract awards...

What does Kel-Tec make that is a "knockoff" of any other company's work?

[bellavite1]

Looks to me like the Ruger LCP is actually a Kel-Tec knock off (or did they just buy the design?).
Not sure about the internals but they do look oddly similar.

As far as staking your life on it, I'll say what nobody apparently wants to say: it worked quite ok for Zimmerman.

Oh, and I don't own any Kel-Tec right now.

[KestrelBike]

If I ever see a glock19-mag sub2000 out in the wild, I'll buy it (provided it's <$550)

[SouthPaw]

If I ever see a glock19-mag sub2000 out in the wild, I'll buy it (provided it's <$550)

Same here. I am waiting to read the OOS thing on KSG so I don't feel like I have to purchase it.

[HBARleatherneck]

why do people buy kia and hyundai when they should obviously not trust their safety or driving pleasure to anything less than a mercedes? Because this is AMERICA and we have the ability to make choices.







and I have never owned a keltec, kia or hyundai.

[crashdown]

A few of their guns, the PMR-30 and P32 (I think) are Grendel designs and were manufactured by Grendel. I think both companies are the same dude though.

[Zundfolge]

A few of their guns, the PMR-30 and P32 (I think) are Grendel designs and were manufactured by Grendel. I think both companies are the same dude though.

Yep, George Kellgren moved to the US and started Kel-Tec but he used to work for Grendel (and designed the P30).

[ChunkyMonkey]

why do people buy kia and hyundai when they should obviously not trust their safety or driving pleasure to anything less than a mercedes? Because this is AMERICA and we have the ability to make choices.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/064/264/america-fuck-yeah1.jpg

[Jamnanc]

I have a little PF nine that stays in my truck and every time I shot it runs just fine. It works reliably and it's cheap enough that I don't care when it gets all scuffed up from bouncing around. I'm not planning on using it in any matches anytime soon. It should be very effective for its use if needed.

[Circuits]

Kel-Tec. cuz.... 'murica!

[asmo]

For those of you with a RMR30...

45935

[Great-Kazoo]

For those of you with a RMR30...

45935

late to the game. I had the predecessor.
https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608035011279782679&pid=15.1

And this unit. Both bbls were 1/2 x 28 threaded. Still have some spare parts laying around.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608015958805512656&pid=15.1

[davsel]

Price / fun gun, I get it.

As for govt contracts: If you are designing and manufacturing a "tactical" rifle/shotgun/pistol, and do not have any level of govt or military interested in any of your products, I will more than likely choose something else.

I would have never purchased a Glock or Tavor if not for their long history of acceptance testing.

I just wish someone would come out with a stainless AR receiver set that I could afford.

IMO, guns should only be made from stainless steel and wood.

[Whistler]

.gov is not known for making the best choices... love my Sub2000, cheesy plastic bits and all.

[jerrymrc]

Lot's of good replies. Never owned one but have shot a few. I think most everyone has there "why" question when it comes to guns.

[MrPrena]

I do not own kel-tec either, but here are my guess.

-demand in ksg
-fairly decent priced pocket carry pistols.
-new 22 mag pistol they came out with while back
-George Zimmer[man] fan boys.

http://i61.tinypic.com/dwbeo6.jpg

[Gman]

I've had my P3AT for years. Never had any issues with reliability or accuracy. There are a couple of mfrs. that are now making knock-offs of that little pocket pistol.

Sent from my electronic leash.

[CareyH]

I have a P32 that I carry daily. Every time I go to the range, I empty the mag in the gun and it always goes bang. I have never had a failure with my P32.

If what the government does is your barometer for the purchases you make.........enjoy obamacare :) hahahahahahaahahahhahahahaha

[Bailey Guns]

A few of their guns, the PMR-30 and P32 (I think) are Grendel designs and were manufactured by Grendel. I think both companies are the same dude though.

But Grendel was not "a weapon created by a company pushing out "unique" weapons that are often knockoffs of quality products produced by companies with hundreds of millions of dollars in government contract awards."

And how long has it been since Grendel was in production?

We still don't have an answer as to what Kel-Tec produces that's a knockoff "of quality products produced by companies with hundreds of millions of dollars in government contract awards."

[davsel]

We still don't have an answer as to what Kel-Tec produces that's a knockoff "of quality products produced by companies with hundreds of millions of dollars in government contract awards."
Kel-Tec KSG - NeoStead 2000

Kel-Tec RDB - IWI Tavor

Kel-Tec PMR-30 - FN Five-SeveN

Kel-Tec PLR-16 - Olympic Arms OA-93

[Bailey Guns]

Kel-Tec KSG - NeoStead 2000 This is a quality gun from a mfg'er with hundreds of millions in gov't contracts???

Kel-Tec RDB - IWI Tavor They may look similar but there are substantial differences between the two guns including ejection, KT has adjustable gas system, long vs short stroke and many differences in other details. I suppose if you want to include foreign gov't contracts IWI would qualify.

Kel-Tec PMR-30 - FN Five-SeveN Similar but I wouldn't call it a knockoff. Completely different cartridge and different frame geometry. Similar in the sense it's a polymer framed pistol.

Kel-Tec PLR-16 - Olympic Arms OA-93 Again, similar but not knockoffs in my opinion. And I'm not aware of hundreds of millions of dollars in gov't contracts awarded to Oly Arms.

[Great-Kazoo]

Kel-Tec KSG - NeoStead 2000

Kel-Tec RDB - IWI Tavor

Kel-Tec PMR-30 - FN Five-SeveN

Kel-Tec PLR-16 - Olympic Arms OA-93

Actually it's an updated version of the Grendel P-30. Which GK was the creator of.

[68Charger]

I have a P11 that has only stovepiped ONCE in >500 rounds when I limp-wristed it doing stress 1-hand drills (but 'll admit my EDC is a M&P40c)
but I would not hesitate to carry the P11... especially as a BUG- it drops in my boot so easy... I also don't buy guns to impress other people... so if you don't like it, so what- period.

I got into the P40 as a novelty... own a P40 upper for my P11 (Kel-tec sold it as a kit), and an original P40... but those are more collector items, since they're discontinued, but there are not many .40S&W handguns that are 14oz [Coffee] I'd like to acquire the rare .357sig barrel for the P40... for the trifecta of wrist damage.
I sometimes enjoy recoil therapy to the point of recoil abuse... also useful for taking macho jerks down a notch... looks just like P11, but kicks like a $%#@%#&*(... I could swap it anytime with someone shooting my P11.

As Zund said- same guy that founded Grendel is behind Kel-Tec.
IMHO, they could really improve upon their line by either greatly upgrading their production capacity, or sub-contract out some functions to do it... (learn from Magpul's business model)
Another direction I'd take the company involve releasing another line (probably under another name) using higher quality components, and make it an "elite" version... with a higher price of course.

Kel-tec has always targeted niche markets... The PMR30 was a re-designed version of the Grendel, The KSG was unique (the Neostead was inspiration, but not the same design) until the UTS-15 came along.
I still like the design of their RFB (a .308 bullpup that's ambidextrous... if it just had higher quality materials, it could be a really nice battle rifle.

The idea that weapons should only be made of Stainless and wood is ridiculous to me, as an engineer- there are many functions that are better served by different alloys... are you suggesting that ammo casings should only be made out of stainless steel? (wood is just silly) Absurd- brass is much better suited to that, based on the characteristics of the metal (and that's just one example)

Just the very suggestion (and your original post) makes me think "hmm, he's just trolling"... but if I thought you were only a troll, I would not respond at all.

There are a variety of reasons why people buy firearms, and not all of them have to do with how accurate, sexy, or even how functional they are... what one person thinks is cool, is just trash to another... I love some firearms that are made from Stainless and wood- but my grandfather has a M1 Carbine that I'll adore when it's passed down to me- but there is no stainless in that design. Mini-14's are available in stainless and wood versions- but for the most part, they can't shoot worth a hoot.

Innovation is also very interesting to me- I've been looking at a SEP (single edge polygonal) AR15 barrel with a Melonite finish, for example...
Bottom line, If I like something, I don't CARE what others think about it... I would never buy a POF or Noveske just to impress somebody- other than myself.

[68Charger]

Kel-Tec KSG - NeoStead 2000

Kel-Tec RDB - IWI Tavor

Kel-Tec PMR-30 - FN Five-SeveN

Kel-Tec PLR-16 - Olympic Arms OA-93
Fail-
I already pointed out Neostead inspired, but is not the same design (maybe similar function, but not the same design) as KSG
Kel-Tec RFB was released before 2009... IWI Tavor didn't come out until what, late 2012, early 2013? RDB was a re-design of the RFB, not the Tavor

PMR-30 fires .22WMR, not the same thing as FN Five-SeveN (no matter how much you capitalize the wrong letters to make it seem KOOL) (besides .22WMR /= 5.7x28, 20 /=30 rnd capacity)

And accusing someone of copying a Oly arms to appear elitist, PLEASE...

[sportbikeco]

Their only redeeming quality is that they *should be* cheap. That is not the case these days due to low production.

I had a PF-9, it was ok, not impressed, it worked though. I actually had a spring pop out and jam up the weapon, i fixed it and it never happened again.

[battle_sight_zero]

Never owned one, however never judge them as junk or cheap and or knockoffs. I admit I am interested in the KSG that is an innovative product in my mind.

[DocMedic]

Kel-Tec KSG - NeoStead 2000

Kel-Tec RDB - IWI Tavor

Kel-Tec PMR-30 - FN Five-SeveN

Kel-Tec PLR-16 - Olympic Arms OA-93

Seriously? lay the crack pipe down. I feel like this is gun racism happening here!

I own a PMR-30. Fun "little" gun. Who else can advertise a gun that when fully loaded ways as much as a fully loaded Pmag!

[davsel]

Guns were once beautifully engineered works of art with deep blued steel and polished wood grained furniture. Then along came aluminum and, once they figured out how to keep parts from cracking, they sold like crazy - usually for a higher price. Then came plastic, and I just had to hang my head - retails for the same as before.

I suppose I'm just a neanderthal who misses the beauty, engineering, and ruggedness that once was.

[Hound]

I have a KSG, absolutely wonderful shotgun. Innovative, light, rugged as hell and a great price for what you get. There is a reason they are hard to find. They are an American company that is leading in new ideas for the gun world. That is unlike 3/4 of the guns you seem to look up to. I also have a Five-Seven........... Seems to me about the only parts on that that are not plastic are the barrel and slide.. BTW they have been having some problems with being fully locked into battery. NeoStead.... I believe that is not a full production gun, it is limited even though coming out 13 years ago. The Tavor is a good gun and I love bullpups but there is room for both. Haters gonna hate but it's sad to hate on something you obviously have no understanding about. None of the guns you bring up are in the class of an old English Shotgun as artwork. Lots of plastic on them too.

[stenz]

I have the P3AT and its a great little weapon.

[HoneyBadger]

Guns were once beautifully engineered works of art with deep blued steel and polished wood grained furniture. Then along came aluminum and, once they figured out how to keep parts from cracking, they sold like crazy - usually for a higher price. Then came plastic, and I just had to hang my head - retails for the same as before.

I suppose I'm just a neanderthal who misses the beauty, engineering, and ruggedness that once was.
So then where's your hate for Glock? Springfield? Magpul?

[Great-Kazoo]

Guns were once beautifully engineered works of art with deep blued steel and polished wood grained furniture. Then along came aluminum and, once they figured out how to keep parts from cracking, they sold like crazy - usually for a higher price. Then came plastic, and I just had to hang my head - retails for the same as before.

I suppose I'm just a neanderthal who misses the beauty, engineering, and ruggedness that once was.

You can thank mass production and the EPA for the loss of Hand Crafted, Deep European Blued guns. OR you can do some research and loacte a gunsmith who builds fine shooting arms.
Of course we'd be burdened by you, complaining how expensive it's become to buy a custom firearm.

[Great-Kazoo]

So then where's your hate for Glock? Springfield? Magpul?

He's a KelTec denier, due to lack of a .gov contract. DON'T tell him the Springfield XD series is a re-stamped Croatian gun [panic]

[ChunkyMonkey]

Tunnel vision


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[davsel]

So then where's your hate for Glock? Springfield? Magpul?

All have mil/LE contracts. Which to me, is a good indicator that they work.

Unattractive and unlikely to be handed down to the grandchildren since all plastic has a half-life.
But they do fill a need as a relatively inexpensive tool. I carry a Glock on the bike - don't mind if it gets wet or dropped.

Same reason I don't buy NC-Star. I'll save up my hard earned cash to purchase something that is proven reliable and hopefully will last at least a couple of generations.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I like high end equipment but equipment snobs annoy me. If it works for you and meets your needs, then great. Excessive complaints should make you wary but Kel-Tec and Taurus have both produced well-engineered products that people shoot regularly without complaint. If it's your choice, just make sure you function test it -- but that applies to any manufacturer of any equipment.

[kidicarus13]

Unattractive and unlikely to be handed down to the grandchildren since all plastic has a half-life.

The gov't will make your polymer guns inoperable LONG BEFORE nature does.

[Chad4000]

I like my little P11 9mm. At the time that I bought it(3 years before the Ruger LCP), it was fairly unique in the industry: an inexpensive, light weight pocket pistol in 9mm (not .380). It is smaller and lighter than a PPK in .380(and less than half the price!), and carries 11 rounds of serious defensive ammo. They also offered it in .40 at one time, but discontinued it due to complaints about the recoil. Mine may have the worst trigger of any weapon I've ever owned, but it is reliable and reasonably accurate, holding about 3-4 inch groups at 15yds freestanding. Is it a Glock 26? No, but it is about 60% of the bulk, and conceals nicely in situations where my Glock might be too bulky. It wouldn't be my first choice as a defensive weapon in most situations, but it definitely fills a need for me.

Totally agree here

[Jer]

Because KSG.

[Ah Pook]

And accusing someone of copying a Oly arms to appear elitist, PLEASE...
I LOLed. [LOL]

[fitz19d]

So only AR's you'll own are for most part are colts? ha.

Yes, apparently you are a caveman, regardless of a persons opinion of keltec guns.

Sure, older guns do have a beauty in their engineering and work. But then again technology progresses and things havnt changed the way they have for no reason.

[HoneyBadger]

Unattractive and unlikely to be handed down to the grandchildren since all plastic has a half-life.



All plastic is going to outlast any wood or steel in storage or in a landfill.

[Great-Kazoo]

So only AR's you'll own are for most part are colts? ha.

Yes, apparently you are a caveman, regardless of a persons opinion of keltec guns.

Sure, older guns do have a beauty in their engineering and work. But then again technology progresses and things havnt changed the way they have for no reason.

Following The OP's logic, he should be driving anything 72 or earlier, you know, sans electronic ignition.

[davsel]

So only AR's you'll own are for most part are colts? ha.

Yes, apparently you are a caveman, regardless of a persons opinion of keltec guns.

Sure, older guns do have a beauty in their engineering and work. But then again technology progresses and things havnt changed the way they have for no reason.

Not sure where you got Colt only from.
If by "technology progresses" you mean profit margin increases, I'll agree.



All plastic is going to outlast any wood or steel in storage or in a landfill.

Seal up a plastic gun any way you like. It will become brittle over time. All plastic gasses - at different rates. Stress, heat, and UV will speed the process, but nothing will stop it. This has been discussed on numerous boards.
Grease up a metal and wood gun, seal it in a dry container, and it will outlast many lifetimes.

[Dave_L]

Following The OP's logic, he should be driving anything 72 or earlier, you know, sans electronic ignition.

I take offense to that as my primary drivers are '72 and older...for the very reason of sans electronics. Lol.

[davsel]

Following The OP's logic, he should be driving anything 72 or earlier, you know, sans electronic ignition.

You will get no argument from me there.
Working on restoring a 1940 Packard 110 convertible now.
Loved my '74 Bronco.
You open the hood, climb in, and fix whatever needs fixin.
They just don't make em like they used to.

[Great-Kazoo]

You will get no argument from me there.
Working on restoring a 1940 Packard 110 convertible now.
Loved my '74 Bronco.
You open the hood, climb in, and fix whatever needs fixin.
They just don't make em like they used to.

Flathead 6, nice. My last 2 flatheads were a 49 Mercury 4 door ($175) and 52 Plymouth Cranbrook ($25.)

[crays]

Seal up a plastic gun any way you like. It will become brittle over time. All plastic gasses - at different rates. Stress, heat, and UV will speed the process, but nothing will stop it. This has been discussed on numerous boards.
Grease up a metal and wood gun, seal it in a dry container, and it will outlast many lifetimes.

Use the proper cleaning and lubrication items on a polymer gun, seal it up in a dry container, and it will also last a very, very long time.

Apples to apples.

Temperature and moisture control are key to both types.

Sent via Mobile Work Avoidance Device

[HoneyBadger]

Not sure where you got Colt only from.
If by "technology progresses" you mean profit margin increases, I'll agree.




Seal up a plastic gun any way you like. It will become brittle over time. All plastic gasses - at different rates. Stress, heat, and UV will speed the process, but nothing will stop it. This has been discussed on numerous boards.
Grease up a metal and wood gun, seal it in a dry container, and it will outlast many lifetimes.
Yeah, all that plastic in landfills will likely disagree with and disprove your hypothesis. It is expected to be there for hundreds of years. This is why we push so hard to recycle plastic... It just doesn't break down easily.

Interesting example: One of the satellites I work on switched from aluminum supports for one of the antennas to plastic because the plastic holds up better in space. IN SPACE. Where it is constantly bombarded by radiation and charged particles from the sun and goes through an incredible temperature change (-80*C to +90*C) every 24 hours. The projected life of the satellite is 20 years but it will likely last 30+. IN SPACE. 22,000 miles away.

[Bailey Guns]

Pffft... The whole high tech satellites and space thing...it's just a fad. Steel and wood baby...that's where it's at.

[HoneyBadger]

Pffft... The whole high tech satellites and space thing...it's just a fad. Steel and wood baby...that's where it's at.
[ROFL1]

[wctriumph]

You should buy a KT and find out for yourself. If you don't try you will never know.

[Scanker19]

I only own wood and steel guns, because the wood is biodegradable.

Think green guys.

[spyder]

This was quite an entertaining thread.... Government contracts mean absolutely dick. Seriously, they mean nothing in the means of standards pretty much. They also don't go out and choose a manufacturer for their new equipment 98% of the time, the manufacturers choose to enter into a little competition to see if they get awarded the contract. Sometimes, the winner of the contest doesn't even get chosen, and it is based on taste. You talk a lot of crap about plastic, but Hk has a ton of your so loved "government contracts". Also, stainless steel is not as good as some of the carbon steels available for making a firearm with, and wood over the polymers on the market today is just plain funny.

Now I can see that what you have posted is based upon opinion, and nothing more, but in the same respect, isn't your question that you posed, which makes arguing pointless?

[ray1970]

If you had a Kel-Tec, a Taurus, and maybe a Hi-point that's some operator level firepower right there.

[HoneyBadger]

If you had a Kel-Tec, a Taurus, and maybe a Hi-point that's some operator level firepower right there.
Sounds like an arsenal to me!

[Sharpienads]

After reading this thread, I went and gently fondled my KSG, told her that there are bad people in this world, but that I'll never let them hurt her, and then carefully put her back in the safe.

[DireWolf]

Ok, for those fortunate enough to have a KSG, did you have to camp out at their plant, sacrifice a goat, pay almost 3x MSRP, etc.?

I have no direct hands on experience with KT and thus can't speak to to the quality of product, but find myself a little jaded against them by the combination of years on end of mass-advertising combined with comically low production, the appearance of which seems similar to the handmade Italian sportcars that only have a few units produced per year - if that's their business model then fine, but why then spend all the cash on advertising and driving demand for non-existent supply, because as much as I would like one, after years of looking for product availability, only to find the occasional unit on GB for $1500-1800, absolutely refuse to pay 2x or more for one...

I will admit that part of the reason this aggravates me is being left-handed the only alternative I'm aware of (being the UTS15) is out....



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[fitz19d]

It's very pricy, but look into the SRM1216 for a similiar high cap amazing wierd shotty. Not sure of legality as it's fed from 4 tubes of 4 but all bundled into one big removable magazine. (Do have to manually index to each tube of 4 though.)

For mine, I did have to go the pay too much route as I never lucked into one at a LGS for retail.

[Hound]

Nope, walked in paid $869 +tax, BGC at the Firing Line (BTW this was during the Gouging times of most gun shops) said have a nice day, shot it soon after. Never had a problem with it, wife was good once she learned to tuck it into her shoulder. The bullpup tends to make people leave a bit of room between the butt of the gun and their shoulder. It will remind you real quick of the error in your ways but once you get that one figured out you are good. I saw them going for as much as $4000 and many times $2500. I love mine but never would have paid that. Now the 'Intel' thread has them for $849... Shipped. That is about right.



Ok, for those fortunate enough to have a KSG, did you have to camp out at their plant, sacrifice a goat, pay almost 3x MSRP, etc.?

I have no direct hands on experience with KT and thus can't speak to to the quality of product, but find myself a little jaded against them by the combination of years on end of mass-advertising combined with comically low production, the appearance of which seems similar to the handmade Italian sportcars that only have a few units produced per year - if that's their business model then fine, but why then spend all the cash on advertising and driving demand for non-existent supply, because as much as I would like one, after years of looking for product availability, only to find the occasional unit on GB for $1500-1800, absolutely refuse to pay 2x or more for one...

I will admit that part of the reason this aggravates me is being left-handed the only alternative I'm aware of (being the UTS15) is out....



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[jerrymrc]

Pffft... The whole high tech satellites and space thing...it's just a fad. Steel and wood baby...that's where it's at.

Yep, one day they may have phones that don't need wires. [LOL]

[Bailey Guns]

Yep, one day they may have phones that don't need wires. [LOL]

Yeah, right... Senile old man.

[spyder]

Yep, one day they may have phones that don't need wires. [LOL]
I just wish something faster than this damn dial up would hurry and come along so I could browse faster...