View Full Version : Cease and desist: AR Buildfest 2014
funkymonkey1111
06-15-2014, 21:50
You shouldn't need a facebook account to see this link:
https://www.facebook.com/ARBuildfest
Highplains CNC was going to have an 80% AR buildfest this weekend and announced the following Friday night:
***ANNOUNCEMENT***
Today at approximately 1:00 PM MT we received a “Cease and Desist” letter from ATF. The letter makes no allegations of illegality on the part of High Plains CNC, LLC, but it advises us not to proceed with our CNC services.
This issue revolves around a grey area in the definition of “manufacturing” according to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch in West Virginia. ATF has invited us to engage with them beginning Monday to work out a way to address their concerns while still providing a way for our customers to complete their ARs.
THEREFORE, Saturday’s ARBuildfest WILL STILL BE HELD, BUT NO CNC OPERATIONS WILL BE AVAILABLE. All of our vendors will be on hand with their supplies and we will still be selling 80% receiver ‘blanks’. Our hope is that in the next few days we can plot a way forward with ATF and quickly resume offering finishing resources to our customers.
We apologize for this inconvenience and we would ask that everyone please help us to circulate this notice widely. We have every expectation that our community of enthusiasts will support us as we work through these issues. In closing, it should be noted that the ATF officials we have been in communication with today have proceeded with the utmost professionalism and cordiality. We ask our community to respect that fact and not to disparage these individuals in any way.
Sincerely,
Bob Berry
Great-Kazoo
06-15-2014, 22:12
What do you expect when you're charging walk-ins to use your equipment, after advertising it all over the web. One more reason why build parties are invite only, if at all.
Plus with vendors on site, selling everything else.
BPTactical
06-16-2014, 05:29
I heard the ads on the radio last week for it.
I thought: "you dummies".
For profit and 80% lower...not a good idea.
Aloha_Shooter
06-16-2014, 07:51
I would say " ... and so it begins ..." except it began years ago when Obama nominated and the Democratic Senate confirmed Eric Holder as Attorney General without a whimper from the GOP minority despite Holder's well-documented anti-2A (hell, just plain unconstitutional) actions under Janet Reno.
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 08:09
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
kidicarus13
06-16-2014, 08:13
Sounds like fun, maybe I'll try to make it.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I don't see it that way. I thank them for pushing the envelope. If we can get the ATF to actually define some things we then know the rules and know what rules to fight against.
The law is clear to me, and it seems that the ATF has allowed things to go too far on this specific issue. If you can build a firearm yourself, sure, the law allows that. When you do not have the ability to do so, to pay someone for their help/expertise/program to manufacture a firearm...how can some of you not grasp that the law does not allow that?
I am not arguing the appropriateness or constitutional issues of the law, but it sure seems clear that if you do it on your own, good. If you pay someone for help, not good.
That may be how things are being enforced but is that actual written code?
The law is clear to me, and it seems that the ATF has allowed things to go too far on this specific issue. If you can build a firearm yourself, sure, the law allows that. When you do not have the ability to do so, to pay someone for their help/expertise/program to manufacture a firearm...how can some of you not grasp that the law does not allow that?
I am not arguing the appropriateness or constitutional issues of the law, but it sure seems clear that if you do it on your own, good. If you pay someone for help, not good.
I agree that in this case, they were treading on the line, but what about the advice forums on the interwebs? Downloading design drawings? Watching YouTube videos to get an idea of how to proceed? What about the guys that sell the fixtures to allow people to machine these 80% lowers without having to be a master machinist? It would be nice to get some solid and consistent rulings from the BATFE, instead of them one day declaring that a shoelace is a machine gun...
"help/expertise/program to manufacture a firearm...how can some of you not grasp that the law does not allow that?"
I'd have no trouble grasping that if it was actually written in the law.
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 09:06
That may be how things are being enforced but is that actual written code?
It will be soon..
We need to stand behind businesses that support our 2nd amendment right not bag on them for trying to supply as many of our fellow coloradoins with firearms as possible
If I borrow a drill press and a jig am I breaking the law?
These crazy reversals of previously okd atf decisions hurt us as firearms enthusiasts
We need to stand behind businesses that support our 2nd amendment right not bag on them for trying to supply as many of our fellow coloradoins with firearms as possible
If I borrow a drill press and a jig am I breaking the law?
These crazy reversals of previously okd atf decisions hurt us as firearms enthusiasts
Are they selling the 80% lowers for $40 and giving you machine time for free? That would likely pass the legal tests, and be helping.
If you borrow a drill press and a jig, but you do the work, not an issue, and there are multiple ATF letters stating so. However, in the legal and engineering fields, computer code for a CNC machine IS part of the design and IS considered to be intellectual property. That is the issue. In fact I see it as the ATF coming in line with the common legal and engineering principles that already have legal precedence.
An engineering design includes so many things that the average person does not consider, and for a while, neither did the ATF.
USMC_5-Echo
06-16-2014, 10:16
We need to stand behind businesses that support our 2nd amendment right not bag on them for trying to supply as many of our fellow coloradoins with firearms as possible
If I borrow a drill press and a jig am I breaking the law?
These crazy reversals of previously okd atf decisions hurt us as firearms enthusiasts
I really don't see it written in the 2nd amendment that we can create our own firearms. "To keep and bear arms" does not say to create and build.
I really don't see it written in the 2nd amendment that we can create our own firearms. "To keep and bear arms" does not say to create and build.
This is sarcasm right?
funkymonkey1111
06-16-2014, 10:30
I really don't see it written in the 2nd amendment that we can create our own firearms. "To keep and bear arms" does not say to create and build.
I missed the part where it said you had to buy a firearm. Could you show that to us, please?
funkymonkey1111
06-16-2014, 10:33
The law is clear to me, and it seems that the ATF has allowed things to go too far on this specific issue. If you can build a firearm yourself, sure, the law allows that. When you do not have the ability to do so, to pay someone for their help/expertise/program to manufacture a firearm...how can some of you not grasp that the law does not allow that?
I am not arguing the appropriateness or constitutional issues of the law, but it sure seems clear that if you do it on your own, good. If you pay someone for help, not good.
What about buying a book to help you understand how to do it?
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 10:45
What about buying a book to help you understand how to do it?
Using that logic you should just buy your own CNC and rip it out right?
Great-Kazoo
06-16-2014, 10:48
I agree that in this case, they were treading on the line, but what about the advice forums on the interwebs? Downloading design drawings? Watching YouTube videos to get an idea of how to proceed? What about the guys that sell the fixtures to allow people to machine these 80% lowers without having to be a master machinist? It would be nice to get some solid and consistent rulings from the BATFE, instead of them one day declaring that a shoelace is a machine gun...
What about buying a book to help you understand how to do it?
How to, Help / FAQ's , assembly jigs are publicly available. to assist a repair or fab need. Providing the person selling the equipment is not doing the work, there's no conflict of interest and or gray area. You can buy tools to assemble an AR just about anywhere, to use as needed. Once you get in to assembling lowers for people, you have gone from hobbyist to manufacture.
Whatis it we say regarding >15 rd mags DADT.
Helping a neighbor build a deck as a favor vs getting paid to help that neighbor build his deck. Once you receive compensation, you're a business. That is how they're looking at this. Did you know your home liability won't cover a liability claim if you were receiving payment for the activity? Since it transitions to a business exposure versus personal once money is exchanged. Same idea here from what I can tell.
Doesn't everyone already get compensated? The blank isn't free, neither is a jig, these are all sold at a profit. How is renting time and a CNC program, also for a profit, any different?
All of you guys who are calling them dummies and lobbing tired old "stupid games" cliches at the CNC shop in question, please point out the actual law that prohibits this activity. Regarding "pay[ing] someone for their help/expertise/program to manufacture a firearm", the law does not prohibit this either.
Seems like some handwringing members of the gun community are just as eager to close the evil Gun Manufacturing Loophole as the ATFE.
I tend to agree that if they set up the CNC programming and charge a fee... this is no longer owner finishing an 80% lower and IMO it's practices like this that actually HURT us in the long run. People saying it will be good for them to actually put it into a law: be VERY careful what you wish for. My guess is if the current administration puts anything into words it will be that 80% lowers are now considered a lower and people are abusing this intentional loophole and they'll change it so that it can only be 50% or less lowers or something like that. Good luck finishing out a 49.9% lower with a drill and a jig. I don't see this as pushing the envelope I see it as poking the sleeping bear with a stick & charging tickets to watch to turn a profit.
Jer if this was completely under the radar I might agree with you but with legislators crying about ghost guns the issue is coming up no matter what.
If you are working with metal what has to remain for 80% AR seems pretty stable.
This is more about help. If you come over to my house and use my jig/tools/CNC am I in trouble? Only if paid you say, can you buy me lunch, owe a favor, bring a 12er of sawtooth?
Great-Kazoo
06-16-2014, 11:46
Jer if this was completely under the radar I might agree with you but with legislators crying about ghost guns the issue is coming up no matter what.
If you are working with metal what has to remain for 80% AR seems pretty stable.
This is more about help. If you come over to my house and use my jig/tools/CNC am I in trouble? Only if paid you say, can you buy me lunch, owe a favor, bring a 12er of sawtooth?
You're doing it to assist not ,
1- advertise, world wide (once it's on line) everybody see's it
2- turn a profit
Jer if this was completely under the radar I might agree with you but with legislators crying about ghost guns the issue is coming up no matter what.
If you are working with metal what has to remain for 80% AR seems pretty stable.
This is more about help. If you come over to my house and use my jig/tools/CNC am I in trouble? Only if paid you say, can you buy me lunch, owe a favor, bring a 12er of sawtooth?
This is different than a machine shop advertising to 'help' you for a free. In other words they're basically now manufacturing and, at least to me, this doesn't seem as vague as your making it seem. Seems pretty cut & dry to me. If a buddy 'helps' me change my spark plugs is he a mechanic? If a buddy has a shop that he charges people to 'help' them change their spark plugs on a daily basis do you think he's now a business and as such required to pay taxes and have licenses and such or is he still just 'helping' a buddy? What we're talking about here (unless I'm mistaken) is a for profit entity charging for a service which happens to be finishing 80% lowers that isn't for themselves... I fail to see how this isn't a blatant violation of the spirit of 80% lowers. Keep in mind that 80% lowers themselves are a bit of a loophole that is supposed to allow YOU as the end user to manufacturer your own firearm for your own personal use. Now you want to test loopholes to loopholes and blatantly wave it around in public via advertising and have it be acceptable to the ATF? That's thin ice in winter and it's 80deg outside.
You're doing it to assist not ,
1- advertise, world wide (once it's on line) everybody see's it
2- turn a profit
Exactly. This is what a manufacturer does not a buddy. If Jim comes over and borrows my jigs and bits or vice versa and then receives 'guidance' along the way but no money changes hands how can this be misinterpreted as a manufacturer? I don't know too many manufacturers giving away all their services for free as a business model.
USMC_5-Echo
06-16-2014, 11:55
I missed the part where it said you had to buy a firearm. Could you show that to us, please?
I missed the part where it said you had to buy a car or a computer or a phone. Could you show that to me please? I don't see people buying circuit board blanks and creating their own phone or computer but firearms are somehow completely different? If you want to build guns so badly I don't see the harm in going out and getting a type 07 manufacturing license and going crazy building until your heart is content. Then you could get creative and build something original.
merl, where the issue in many cases, and this one in particular, lies, is in the CNC program. That pushes you past 80% because YOU did not provide the IP for the program. If you program your own CNC, then you are GTG. Selling time on a CNC with a program constitutes design and experience their "customer" does not have. Since these issues have been in front of the Supreme court as to what constitutes a TDP, IP, design, specifications, etc. it is not "pushing" the envelope. It becomes ignorance of legal precedent and fundamental engineering principles. Sure, I see if from a different perspective having testified in court on such topics, but it is crystal clear to me that this is not a gray area, but an over the line area.
As long as you do not charge someone to do the work, nor charge them for the use of a CNC with a program, it is good. Can you rent someone a tool, sure. But "renting" a tool with embedded specifications that are part of a finished design...no good.
I missed the part where it said you had to buy a car or a computer or a phone. Could you show that to me please? I don't see people buying circuit board blanks and creating their own phone or computer but firearms are somehow completely different?
Legally, if you want to build a car, you still have to get a VIN and pass minimum safety standards. Much stricter that for firearms.
Legally, if you want to build a communications device, you have to abide by FCC rules and regs as well and the cost to test a one-off is prohibitive. Much stricter than for firearms.
USMC_5-Echo
06-16-2014, 12:05
Right but the point is that technically you can but no one complains about having to adhere to the safety standards or FCC rules. My point is that if people have the itch to build it so bad why don't they go get a license and then they can turn a profit instead of complaining about how unfair it is.
Right but the point is that technically you can but no one complains about having to adhere to the safety standards or FCC rules. My point is that if people have the itch to build it so bad why don't they go get a license and then they can turn a profit instead of complaining about how unfair it is.
Agreed. Plus, if people keep pushing this, then the .gov is going to have the traction it feels it need to place firearms under CPSC product safety standards, or worse yet, create a new bureaucracy to do so. The implications of pushing the limits, or outright violating the 80% lower allowance is playing right into the hands of the antis. When the .gov forces their way into safety regulations for firearms, we are all done. If you think the antis don't get that, you would be mistaken.
So where does the ATF draw the line? If I lend someone a jig to finish a lower, but don't show them how to insert the lower in the jig? If I show them how to insert the lower, but then remove it and make them do it themselves? If I insert the lower into the jig, but make them set it up on the mill/drill press? If I point out that they are about to use the wrong drill bit? If they break one of my bits, and pay to replace it, even though I'm not charging for time or expertise? It's not nearly as black and white as it would seem to be on the surface. I get that in this case, they were charging for machine time and allowing the use of their programming, and that seems to be over the gray line, but if 10 guys get together to rent machine time, and one of them happens to be a CNC programmer that writes the program that they all share, who if anyone, is the illegal manufacturer?
kidicarus13
06-16-2014, 12:38
So where does the ATF draw the line? If I lend someone a jig to finish a lower, but don't show them how to insert the lower in the jig? If I show them how to insert the lower, but then remove it and make them do it themselves? If I insert the lower into the jig, but make them set it up on the mill/drill press? If I point out that they are about to use the wrong drill bit? If they break one of my bits, and pay to replace it, even though I'm not charging for time or expertise? It's not nearly as black and white as it would seem to be on the surface. I get that in this case, they were charging for machine time and allowing the use of their programming, and that seems to be over the gray line, but if 10 guys get together to rent machine time, and one of them happens to be a CNC programmer that writes the program that they all share, who if anyone, is the illegal manufacturer?
Whoever BATFE wants to go after they'll justify it. It's great system huh?
USMC_5-Echo
06-16-2014, 12:43
So where does the ATF draw the line? If I lend someone a jig to finish a lower, but don't show them how to insert the lower in the jig? If I show them how to insert the lower, but then remove it and make them do it themselves? If I insert the lower into the jig, but make them set it up on the mill/drill press? If I point out that they are about to use the wrong drill bit? If they break one of my bits, and pay to replace it, even though I'm not charging for time or expertise?
Technically all legal because you're providing information or tools for free. As for breaking the bit and buying you a new one, that's a matter of replacing something and therefore also legal.
but if 10 guys get together to rent machine time, and one of them happens to be a CNC programmer that writes the program that they all share, who if anyone, is the illegal manufacturer?
In this case I would lean towards the 9 guys that don't have the program experience since the program (intellectual property) belongs to the one with programming experience. However since those 9 are not paying the 10th for the program and have received verbal approval to use the program for free and make any modifications to it that they desire then they should be clear too.
HoneyBadger
06-16-2014, 13:22
I really don't see it written in the 2nd amendment that we can create our own firearms. "To keep and bear arms" does not say to create and build.
Are you serious?? The Bill of Rights is NOT a limitation on the citizens, it is a limitation on the government. How hard is that to understand?
Basically, all build parties should be a free community event that the host can hopefully recoup some cost later on through those people returning favors. ;) If compensation is officially received, you could end up in a bad spot.
Why there is even a conversation about this topic going on in this thread, is beyond me.
Here is a picture of an 80% lower that I completed. See those wavy lines and gouge marks where I ran the bit too far on accident? I had no one to point the finger at but myself, because I did the work.
If anyone who went to a build party got a lower back that looked like this, who do you think they are going to point their finger at? Not a damn one of them would say, "Whoops, looks like I pushed the button the wrong way, better luck next time." Everyone would throw a fit because "Your machine" and "Your program" and "I paid for" etc, etc. A build party where you show up and push is button, is just paying someone else to manufacture the gun for you. If the only involvement you have is your wallet and the finger it takes to push the GO button, how is that any different than just a purchase? We don't even need to get into the discussion of whether compensation was given or not.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xnEYTFA9PpA/UoLbtUodjDI/AAAAAAAAFm4/fsyHB23UUr4/w999-h562-no/20131112_185350.jpg
henpecked
06-16-2014, 13:41
You did well for a beginner....
Martinjmpr
06-16-2014, 13:50
I heard about this on the radio and stopped by, only to be told about the C and D order. I think the real problem with their "build party" was that they had vendors who would sell every other part and even help you assemble the parts. IOW, they created a situation where you could walk in with nothing but a fat wallet and walk out with a complete, functioning firearm. I can understand why, to the ATF, that looks an awful lot like a "gun shop" regardless of the disclaimers.
68Charger
06-16-2014, 14:21
Like it or not... Look up KT Ordnance, circa 2006
“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/17142.Edmund_Burke)
Are you serious?? The Bill of Rights is NOT a limitation on the citizens, it is a limitation on the government. How hard is that to understand?
This
Shocked at a lot of the opinions on this thread
As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't even be 80% lowers I should be able to walk into walmart grab a loaf of bread a hammer and a lower off the shelf buy it at the same register and walk out anything else is an infringement on my 2nd amendment RIGHTS
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 15:27
Like it or not it is what it is.
Publicizing a "build fest" did nothing more than bring it to the ATF's attention and force them to make a decision.
Like I said at the beginning play stupid games win stupid prizes. IE if your going to be semi-illegally manufacturing firearms, maybe don't publicize it on the radio, internet and everywhere else.
So.... Arguing theintellectual property bit. If "sold" to the guy with the 80% lower, its illegal, but what if they said to bring a flash drive with a program downloaded for free off their website?
So.... Arguing theintellectual property bit. If "sold" to the guy with the 80% lower, its illegal, but what if they said to bring a flash drive with a program downloaded for free off their website?
It is then not 80%. The whole point is that the final 20% has to be done by the person who owns the "blank". Providing, free or for profit, the IP (CNC program) removes it from being 80%. If you don't know how to program specs into the CNC, then the only way you can finish an 80% lower is with manual operations. Once someone provides you a program, or programs a CNC for you to use, you are not completing the final 20% all by yourself.
If the end result gets screwed up, and you can blame ANYONE IN THE ROOM, but yourself, then it is probably illegal in the eyes of the ATF.
Martinjmpr
06-16-2014, 16:22
I guess everything old is new again. Anybody remember "receiver flats?" Back in the 80's there were companies selling "flats" of some firearms that used stamped receivers (AK and MAC-10 were the ones I remembered) complete with marking on them of where to cut and drill. I'm pretty sure the ATF shut them down, for the same reason.
I guess everything old is new again. Anybody remember "receiver flats?" Back in the 80's there were companies selling "flats" of some firearms that used stamped receivers (AK and MAC-10 were the ones I remembered) complete with marking on them of where to cut and drill. I'm pretty sure the ATF shut them down, for the same reason.
You can still buy flats
blacklabel
06-16-2014, 16:30
And you can buy 80% AK receivers as well, with templates.
http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/AK47-80-Blank-Receiver-16p362.htm
skullybones
06-16-2014, 16:55
My favorite is the picture with a guy in shorts and thong sandals in their shop.
They asked for this to happen with the publicity.
Martinjmpr
06-16-2014, 17:06
I would guess that the ATF has never ruled definitively on whether "renting" time on a CNC machine that is already programmed is considered "manufacturing a firearm" or not. Undoubtedly, though, they will now be exploring exactly this issue which just goes to show you there are some questions you probably shouldn't ask because the answer may not be what you want it to be and once you get an answer, you can no longer plead ignorance.
Martinjmpr
06-16-2014, 17:07
And you can buy 80% AK receivers as well, with templates.
http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/AK47-80-Blank-Receiver-16p362.htm
Doesn't the AK also require something else, a "trunnion" or barrel extension or something that gets welded to the frame?
It is then not 80%. The whole point is that the final 20% has to be done by the person who owns the "blank". Providing, free or for profit, the IP (CNC program) removes it from being 80%. If you don't know how to program specs into the CNC, then the only way you can finish an 80% lower is with manual operations. Once someone provides you a program, or programs a CNC for you to use, you are not completing the final 20% all by yourself.
Its not illegal for me to download the 3d printed lower plans off piratebay and feed it through a makerbot....
skullybones
06-16-2014, 18:18
Its not illegal for me to download the 3d printed lower plans off piratebay and feed it through a makerbot....
You supplied the program.
You supplied the program.
So I can supply the program and still pay to rent a Cnc machine?
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 18:32
So I can supply the program and still pay to rent a Cnc machine?
Do you know what a copy of Mastercam costs to write that program? (Hint: the price has a comma in it)
Not to mention the years it would take the average person to get it done. Programing CNC isn't like ordering a pizza online, it takes years of practice and work to get to where you can write a program like that. Let alone understand the fixturing necessary to get a good part out of your program.
Even longer when you dont have a machine at your disposal to prove programs out.
Fear not citizen, the govt will be along shortly to tell you whats legal and whats not.
skullybones
06-16-2014, 18:33
I am not legally up to speed on all of this, but your program would be a large portion of the 20%. Along with being coached to set work coordinates and tool offsets you would have done all of the machining. Finding someone brave enough to let a stranger do all of that would be rare.
My going joke is that if someone can figure out the start up sequence for my mill, they can then ask about finish machining an 80%. Factoring a new spindle is $3000. Mistakes are costly and trust is not granted readily.
Colorado_Outback
06-16-2014, 18:40
My going joke is that if someone can figure out the start up sequence for my mill, they can then ask about finish machining an 80%.
Sweet, I'm in ;)
USMC_5-Echo
06-16-2014, 18:41
Its not illegal for me to download the 3d printed lower plans off piratebay and feed it through a makerbot....
Hahahaha you said "not illegal" and "piratebay" in the same sentence. Please tell me again how the piratebay has never been sued for their "legal" activities.... Don't forget to skip all of that music, movies, and software while you're there.
Hahahaha you said "not illegal" and "piratebay" in the same sentence. Please tell me again how the piratebay has never been sued for their "legal" activities.... Don't forget to skip all of that music, movies, and software while you're there.
Let's not confuse running afoul of the ATF and running afoul of the RIAA.
Hahahaha you said "not illegal" and "piratebay" in the same sentence. Please tell me again how the piratebay has never been sued for their "legal" activities.... Don't forget to skip all of that music, movies, and software while you're there.
Not everything done on (insert any torrent site here) is illegal.
Not everything done with (insert any AR brand here) is illegal.
Let's not confuse running afoul of the ATF and running afoul of the RIAA.
This. There was a company in TX (I believe) that posted a file, OPEN SOURCE, that was made to print out a polymer pistol. So, unless youre stealing somebodys info, RIAA is a moot point.
skullybones
06-16-2014, 20:05
Relatively speaking, the program for the ops to complete an 80% is pretty simple. With a simple understanding of the g-codes needed it would be possible to write the code in Notepad or Word. A person would also need an understanding of speeds and feeds for the given tooling, and how that interacts with the capabilities of the mill.
But again, I (and most sane folks) would never let a random program into my machine.
I have a hard time understanding the draw to 80% lowers given the cost and complexity that people go to completing them.
Great-Kazoo
06-16-2014, 20:12
I would guess that the ATF has never ruled definitively on whether "renting" time on a CNC machine that is already programmed is considered "manufacturing a firearm" or not. Undoubtedly, though, they will now be exploring exactly this issue which just goes to show you there are some questions you probably shouldn't ask because the answer may not be what you want it to be and once you get an answer, you can no longer plead ignorance.
ONCE again DADT, AND DADA (ADVERTISE)
HoneyBadger
06-16-2014, 20:50
ONCE again DADT, AND DADA (ADVERTISE)
No kidding. How freaking complicated is it?
Great-Kazoo
06-16-2014, 20:55
No kidding. How freaking complicated is it?
For some, very.
ONCE again DADT, AND DADA (ADVERTISE)
Remind me to start a thread whereby I make a profit offering to coach people on how to sell 30rd magazines or private party firearms w/o FFLs. lulz
Great-Kazoo
06-16-2014, 23:41
Remind me to start a thread whereby I make a profit offering to coach people on how to sell 30rd magazines or private party firearms w/o FFLs. lulz
Check your PM's
And if you go the way Danimal has outlined, you really don't even have to buy an 80% lower, just buy a block of aluminum and make yourself a billet lower. I have seen 1911s, AR lowers, Rem 700 actions all built on a similar homemade CNC mill. You won't be zipping out a lower every minute, but you can do it in an afternoon.
OneGuy67
06-17-2014, 18:16
I, for one, will admit that Danimal is far smarter than I if he can get all that stuff to work together to make a CNC machine one such as I could use.
Great-Kazoo
06-17-2014, 21:00
I, for one, will admit that Danimal is far smarter than I if he can get all that stuff to work together to make a CNC machine one such as I could use.
Reading, research, and comprehension of tooling will make it much easier.
Yes anyone can do it.
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608041934780956872&pid=15.1
OneGuy67
06-17-2014, 21:01
Wow...Jim just called me stupider than a caveman!
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Great-Kazoo
06-17-2014, 21:04
Wow...Jim just called me stupider than a caveman!
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I don't see me calling you anything. merely a picture for reference, Thag.
OneGuy67
06-17-2014, 21:06
Ah, I'm just pulling your leg.
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Great-Kazoo
06-17-2014, 21:14
Ah, I'm just pulling your leg.
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That's not my leg.
OneGuy67
06-17-2014, 21:22
Sorry, no rub and tugs from this guy.
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HoneyBadger
06-17-2014, 21:26
That's not my leg.
[ROFL1]
Danimal, thanks for the good write up... Now please stop putting ideas in my head!!! lol
Hey, stop talking about cool things to do with milling machines. I was trying to find someone who had a dusty one in the garage they wanted to get rid of... not get them excited about a CNC conversion. :)
... and just to clarify, "cool things to do with milling machines" has nothing to do with Jim's "leg"
Great-Kazoo
06-17-2014, 22:13
... and just to clarify, "cool things to do with milling machines" has nothing to do with Jim's "leg"
Boring Bar
Boring Bar
If it's that boring, you're not using it right.
cfortune
06-18-2014, 00:03
If the argument is you can't include the CNC code because it's considered part of the product, what percent does that make said lower with the code?
Could you compensate by say leaving the material between the trigger guard and the remainder of the lower?
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If the argument is you can't include the CNC code because it's considered part of the product, what percent does that make said lower with the code?
In Engineering terms, the design is considered to be about 2-10% of the total project and the code itself is considered to be about 5% of the project, both are considered to be IP along with the original conceptualization of the part/project. IMHO, the actual CNC code in this realm is probably on the order of a few percent, but it is also the critical percentage. Based on my conversations with the ATF, I think you would be hard pressed to create a compliant "80% lower with CNC program" that would pass the threshold.
Martinjmpr
06-23-2014, 10:50
UPDATE: For those who are interested...
I called High Plain CNC this morning to find out if they were up and running.
They are not. Said they were hoping to hear something this week WRT using their CNC machine again.
funkymonkey1111
07-15-2014, 14:23
UPDATE: For those who are interested...
I called High Plain CNC this morning to find out if they were up and running.
They are not. Said they were hoping to hear something this week WRT using their CNC machine again.
did you ever hear any more from them?
Great-Kazoo
07-15-2014, 16:15
UPDATE: For those who are interested...
I called High Plain CNC this morning to find out if they were up and running.
They are not. Said they were hoping to hear something this week WRT using their CNC machine again.
I'd give them guys a wide berth . They're already high profile, to suggest one or more alphabet agency may or may not have eyes on them...
The good 'ol BATFE:
http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i445/TangoDownPro/ButthurtEverywhere_zpsdb0d2ce7.png (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/TangoDownPro/media/ButthurtEverywhere_zpsdb0d2ce7.png.html)
kidicarus13
10-12-2014, 08:29
How are these build parties working out for them?
Martinjmpr
10-23-2014, 13:23
How are these build parties working out for them?
Interesting question. After forgetting about this for a couple of months I happened to go back to their web site. You no longer have the ability to walk in with an 80% and walk out with a functional receiver. Instead, you have to first do some work on the receiver yourself. Specifically, before using their CNC machine you have to do the following:
Manually drill selector switch, trigger and hammer pin holes. For more information on how to perform this necessary modification prior to using High Plains CNC services please call us ahead of time and we can direct you to local enthusiasts where you can perform this operation at no charge.
****** THIS STEP MUST BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO STEP 3 ******
After that they'll let you "rent" their CNC to cut the remainder of your receiver. I'm guessing this change was the result of their "come to Jesus" meeting with the ATF back in June.
kidicarus13
01-03-2015, 22:38
Looking forward to the next one! [sarcasm]
Gonna' have to jump in your time machine to go back to 2014.
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