Market Observations

[Bailey Guns]

We've had several heated discussions here about "price gougers" in the gun market in the past few years when demand far exceeded the ability of the manufacturers and wholesalers to meet that demand. Prices went up, most items were scarce, tempers flared.

Now were seeing the reverse. Factory fresh AR rifles offered for sale at prices I've personally never seen before. In the last few weeks I've seen new DPMS rifles at sub-$500 prices. Free shipping offers, lowers at $39, complete uppers in the $260 range, Colt 6920 rifles under $900, etc... Yes, ammo is still scarce and even the stuff that's readily available isn't dropping in price as fast as guns. I think that's due to demand still being high and the cost of the materials to make ammo has gone up far more than the materials to make guns. But even ammo is coming down to prices relatively close to what it was pre-panic.

I don't want to start a big pissing match over the issue, but I'm curious what the "price gouger" guys think about the current state of pricing, particularly in regards to AR stuff since that's the focus of the forum. Personally, I think "price gouging" is a myth and I firmly believe pricing is related to a (relatively) free market and is heavily dependent on supply and demand. I believe if a product is offered at a particular price and someone buys it then that's the market at work, regardless of how high the price is.

Frankly I'm really tempted to buy a bunch of AR lowers and other parts that I have absolutely no need for right now simply because the prices are (in my experience) ridiculously low. PSA is making it hard to maintain some financial discipline but I've resisted so far. I may not be able to hold out if prices drop any further.

Just curious what some others think.

[sroz]

I agree with everything you point out. The people who jumped in during the panic have got everything they want with the possible exception of ammunition. In many case they spent their savings or used credit. If they are able to, many are trying to again build up savings. With the economy as it is, a lot of people are now unemployed or have had to take on jobs that pay them significantly less. Many have even had to sell some or all of their guns.

As for price gouging, they take the risk, they reap the rewards (good or bad). I avoid them, but that is my choice.

Your thoughts on buying now with the low prices is right on in my opinion. I don't believe anyone knows where any of the markets (stock, bond, real estate, PM) are heading. Guns & ammo are just as safe a bet if not better. $99 shotguns & sub $500 ARs could soon double in price.

[Great-Kazoo]

It's hard to justify spending when your financial situation is in the shitter. Especially when you still have a lot of early pre-panic priced items. However between the nov mid-term and over zealous use of EO from the CIC, One wonders if Not spending a few $$ now will be a Should Of come 11/14.
It's as fluid as the PM market. Buy now while it's under $20 per on silver or let it go by.

[WillysWagon]

3 lowers I purchased at $40 turned into 2 SBR's and a Dissy due to the fact prices had gone down on parts, like the uppers you mentioned.
Now's a great time to buy !!

[Bailey Guns]

Here's a piston AR for $599 (blem), free shipping, if you're a "Team Bud's" member. Does it get any better than that?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/837/products_id/411554497/Reserve+Order+Guns/Adams+Arms+Base+Piston+Carbine+556NATO+16%22+BLK+6-POS+Blem

[Mtn.man]

As for ammo we found some .223 both 55 grain HP and FMJ for .26 a round

[Great-Kazoo]

Here's a piston AR for $599 (blem), free shipping, if you're a "Team Bud's" member. Does it get any better than that?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/837/products_id/411554497/Reserve+Order+Guns/Adams+Arms+Base+Piston+Carbine+556NATO+16%22+BLK+6-POS+Blem

Team Buds? They toss in a mj gift card?

[TFOGGER]

I bought almost nothing during the panics, seriously contemplating dropping some coin on stuff now that the prices have come down. As far as gouging, caveat emptor, the item is worth whatever you are willing to pay.

[kidicarus13]

As for ammo we found some .223 both 55 grain HP and FMJ for .26 a round

Please do share for other interested forum members.

[XJ]

I've been very responsible lately, paying extra against loans instead of buying lowers, uppers, parts, and ammo. It is very :(

[Irving]

Prices are GREAT right now, but my financial situation hasn't improved and its like the market is rubbing it in my face.

[HoneyBadger]

Always buy low and sell high. I wish I had money to put into guns right now.

[Hound]

Just because you play it smart and don't buy X,Y or Z because you feel the prices are too high due to price gouging does not mean people aren't price gouging. There can be plenty of inventory but because of a panic people get stupid quick. This can happen with anything. That is what a bank run is. That is why the stock market has automated shut off's. The issue with guns and ammo prices is the same. People are free to charge whatever they want and get any price they can get but that does not negate the fact they are praying on a false panic........meaning price gouging.

[Bailey Guns]

So if someone pays the price, and is happy with the price and the product, it's price gouging? I don't think so. Neither do most respected economists.

Now, what about the current situation when the reverse is true? Are the suppliers and manufacturers somehow the victim of low demand? Are they somehow victims of a sort of reverse gouging? After all, it should work both ways, right?

[Bailey Guns]

Excellent video on the subject:


http://youtu.be/h9QEkw6_O6w

[Great-Kazoo]

Just because you play it smart and don't buy X,Y or Z because you feel the prices are too high due to price gouging does not mean people aren't price gouging. There can be plenty of inventory but because of a panic people get stupid quick. This can happen with anything. That is what a bank run is. That is why the stock market has automated shut off's. The issue with guns and ammo prices is the same. People are free to charge whatever they want and get any price they can get but that does not negate the fact they are praying on a false panic........meaning price gouging.


AGAIN?? GET OVER IT.
If you insist on [beatdeadhorse], resurrect one of the other gouging threads.

[Hound]

AGAIN?? GET OVER IT.
If you insist on [beatdeadhorse], resurrect one of the other gouging threads.

Ummmmm.... The thread is about price gouging... Or am I missing that this is the brainwashed capitalism has no flaws BS thread where towing the party line is only accepted???

[Great-Kazoo]

Ummmmm.... The thread is about price gouging... Or am I missing that this is the brainwashed capitalism has no flaws BS thread where towing the party line is only accepted???

Clearly we see profit differently. You feel there's limits, before it becomes " gouging" .Being a man of the world , having travelled through some of it. I feel the sky's the limit. You want to hand me $$ without out complaint, or trying to haggle, . Oh well. .
I've seen items listed here for what I felt was an embarrassing price. However that was the sellers choice and clearly by how fast it SOLD. Not an issue with the multiple interest it generated.

Regarding,towing a brainwashed party line, you don't like increasing your coffers, give it away, Myself, without a rainy day fund, more than once ramen and spam was considered fine dining. I prefer to avoid that path, again..

[Bailey Guns]

Ummmmm.... The thread is about price gouging... Or am I missing that this is the brainwashed capitalism has no flaws BS thread where towing the party line is only accepted???

Well, defend your position. Please explain why you feel those who disagree with you are part of a system of "brainwashed capitalism". And please explain why it seems to work in one direction but not the other.

[Great-Kazoo]

Well, defend your position. Please explain why you feel those who disagree with you are part of a system of "brainwashed capitalism". And please explain why it seems to work in one direction but not the other.

You know why, I know why. It's one of the tenants in some play book

[roberth]

You know why, I know why. It's one of the tenants in some play book

Indeed it is. :) We're watching it destroy this economy in real time.

[Hound]

Unbridaled capitalism gives you robber barons and the great depression. The greatest middle class in American history was created under a 90%+ tax code and the people at the top still did not want for anything. Moderation is the key. Too much regulation stifles creativity and the entrepreneurial spirt, enough spreads the wealth and allows those entrepreneurs the resources to have a chance against an Amazon or Microsoft M$ is a great case in how to squash the entrepreneur with too little regulation while the breaking up of MaBell is a great case of good regulation. Too much Capitalism pools the wealth around a few creating an aristocracy [you know.... The reason we have a Constitution.... an Aristocracy]] that will crush the entrepreneur, lead to greed where one man does not work and wants for nothing while another works himself to death and still has nothing. When a CEO and a man on EOD are paid the same.... Then we can talk. Gouging takes many forms, a monopoly gouges people by falsely manipulating the market through the owning of a market and is the antithesis of Capitalism. The gouging we have seen in guns/ammo is another form, bred more from a false psychology of the fear that there may be a shortage due to something being taken away. Capitalism is neither good nor bad but not taken in moderation (either way) leads to the suffering at first of the common man and eventually by those at the top when the revolution comes (there is another recent thread on here where this exact issue is called out) . History has proven this many times over.

[Great-Kazoo]

Unbridaled capitalism gives you robber barons and the great depression. The greatest middle class in American history was created under a 90%+ tax code and the people at the top still did not want for anything. Moderation is the key. Too much regulation stifles creativity and the entrepreneurial spirt, enough spreads the wealth and allows those entrepreneurs the resources to have a chance against an Amazon or Microsoft M$ is a great case in how to squash the entrepreneur with too little regulation while the breaking up of MaBell is a great case of good regulation. Too much Capitalism pools the wealth around a few creating an aristocracy [you know.... The reason we have a Constitution.... an Aristocracy]] that will crush the entrepreneur, lead to greed where one man does not work and wants for nothing while another works himself to death and still has nothing. When a CEO and a man on EOD are paid the same.... Then we can talk. Gouging takes many forms, a monopoly gouges people by falsely manipulating the market through the owning of a market and is the antithesis of Capitalism. The gouging we have seen in guns/ammo is another form, bred more from a false psychology of the fear that there may be a shortage due to something being taken away. Capitalism is neither good nor bad but not taken in moderation (either way) leads to the suffering at first of the common man and eventually by those at the top when the revolution comes (there is another recent thread on here where this exact issue is called out) . History has proven this many times over.

Actually for those paying bills at the time way before cell phones. The break up of Ma bell in to what was then called The Baby Bells, caused rate increases for use of service. No matter what you read, unless you were there, it wasn't for the better of mankind, after it was said and done. Our monthly phone bill was testament.

Who determines MODERATION, You, the market, buyer seller? personally, between you and a few other members, i am surprised (or not) the "progressive view" touted . You and others may not see , and or vehemently deny it. The same buzz words permeate almost every other post made. Hell you even managed to include Income Redistribution / EQUALITY, in this last post

[Gman]

Collusion and price fixing is bad.

Being able to charge what the market will bear is free enterprise.

[Great-Kazoo]

It's nice to know the free thinkers have a direction for the rest of us. Sorry i'm not feeling, or want to embrace the One People One World mind set.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU1-1d5kTSY

[wctriumph]

Since that is not my vision I guess their plan won't work. I'll take a free market that gives me the choice rather than having the market choose for me, no matter the product.

TEA

III

[Bailey Guns]

Unbridaled capitalism gives you robber barons and the great depression. The greatest middle class in American history was created under a 90%+ tax code and the people at the top still did not want for anything. Moderation is the key. Too much regulation stifles creativity and the entrepreneurial spirt, enough spreads the wealth and allows those entrepreneurs the resources to have a chance against an Amazon or Microsoft M$ is a great case in how to squash the entrepreneur with too little regulation while the breaking up of MaBell is a great case of good regulation. Too much Capitalism pools the wealth around a few creating an aristocracy [you know.... The reason we have a Constitution.... an Aristocracy]] that will crush the entrepreneur, lead to greed where one man does not work and wants for nothing while another works himself to death and still has nothing. When a CEO and a man on EOD are paid the same.... Then we can talk. Gouging takes many forms, a monopoly gouges people by falsely manipulating the market through the owning of a market and is the antithesis of Capitalism. The gouging we have seen in guns/ammo is another form, bred more from a false psychology of the fear that there may be a shortage due to something being taken away. Capitalism is neither good nor bad but not taken in moderation (either way) leads to the suffering at first of the common man and eventually by those at the top when the revolution comes (there is another recent thread on here where this exact issue is called out) . History has proven this many times over.

I have to agree with Kazoo. Your post if full of leftist myths...the largest of which is the 90% tax rate. First of all, virtually no one paid 90%. There were so many deductions that it was nearly impossible. Secondly, tax receipts/revenues in post war America (since 1945 until now) have stayed in the range of 15% to 20% of GDP. Secondly, for many years after the war there was no competition to US businesses because of the destruction from WWII. Another example, in 1944 the highest tax rate was 94%. In reality, the avg tax rate paid for people in that bracket was only 40% due to all of the deductions available. That continued into the 50s in terms of deductions available.

Here's a great article that explains it: http://almostclassical.blogspot.com/2011/03/90-tax-rate-myth.html

The top 10% of income earners in the country already pay 70% of all taxes. That means the remaining 90% pay only 30% of taxes. And don't forget the 47% who pay nothing or nearly nothing in income taxes. It's not about the rich paying their fair share...another liberal myth to appeal to their low-information base. Even CNN, hardly a hotbed of conservatism, agrees with those tax numbers.

It sounds to me like you're a firm believer in equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

And you've gone way beyond the scope of the OP. We're not talking about corporate monopolies and whether or not they're good or bad. There are plenty of monopolies that make products/services less expensive for people...utilities are a prime example. Patents are another example of how a monopoly, encouraged and managed by the federal gov't, provides incentive for invention and innovation. It's true the tradeoff is sometimes higher prices for a product...but that's the incentive to create.

Furthermore, capitalism does not squelch entrepreneurism. I'd venture to say it does just the opposite. And while I am a supporter of the military I'd really like to hear why a CEO (and I'm going to assume you're talking about a CEO of a very large corporation making millions of dollars) responsible for a billion dollar corporation and the thousands of people employed there relates to a military member who volunteered not only to join the military, but also to do a particular job. That's a real stretch that I seriously doubt you can explain rationally. I happen to think many entertainers (sports figures, movie stars, etc...) make WAY too much money but others don't. That's why a football player makes millions and your same EOD guy gets paid on the military wage scale.

Under your "gouging" explanation in the gun/ammo world, explain why it's bad for prices to go up and consumers have to pay more, but it's not bad for prices to come down to the point where suppliers (retailers and manufacturers) make less. It should be apparent that some are struggling to sell inventory...that will likely lead to layoffs or even downsizing if it continues. Who's getting hurt if that happens?

Lastly, if another revolution is imminent, and I have my doubts (I'd go so far as to say it won't happen in my lifetime), it certainly has nothing to do with the fact that gun prices were high while supplies were low. Capitalism is the best economic system yet devised by man that ensures everyone has a shot not only at wealth but the fruits of competition.

[Great-Kazoo]

Since that is not my vision I guess their plan won't work. I'll take a free market that gives me the choice rather than having the market choose for me, no matter the product.

TEA

III


Take your daughetre shooting and stay out of this free market, gouging, price fluctuation crap. No need to ruin your day this early ;)

Don't you know, we're NWO [ROFL3]

[Bailey Guns]

Since that is not my vision I guess their plan won't work. I'll take a free market that gives me the choice rather than having the market choose for me, no matter the product.

TEA

III

Exactly. I get to decide whether a product is priced too high or not. I don't have someone else taking over that aspect of my life. Control over personal freedoms ALWAYS comes at a cost that's far higher than I'm willing to pay. If that means I do without a certain product that leaves me money to spend on something else that offers me greater value.

Make no mistake...the person who believes in "price gouging" believes in relinquishing personal freedom whether they'll admit that's the case or not.

[roberth]

Bailey, Kazoo, wctriumph - you're all on the right track - keep on truckin'

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-25/pocket-guide-understanding-different-schools-economics

[Bailey Guns]

Another point many seem to be missing is this... "Price gouging" is most commonly a term that's used during a time of emergency when someone is charging too much for necessary and essential goods and services. Of course, that's not the only definition, but it's the one most states and local gov'ts use and the one most laws are based on.

Paying a higher price for a LPK or a MagPul magazine probably doesn't really fit the most common definition of "price gouging".

[GilpinGuy]

I once got a stereo receiver from Baily Guns. He wanted a 6 pack of root beer for it. I gave him a case. I guess I gouged myself. [gohome]

[LOL]

[roberth]

Even in time of emergency there is no gouging.

Say there is a flood and gas tripled at the pump because the costs to deliver fuel to the gas station tripled. Is the supplier supposed to eat the costs and lose money for his business, is the retailer, the manufacturer, no, the costs are borne by the consumer who wants that gas.

Supply and demand.

What if the government steps in to subsidize? Well that is wrong too. Why should people who don't live in the affected area be taxed to defray the costs to the people who live in the affected area?

This is where volunteerism and charity step in, not the damn government.

[tmckay2]

people think if the market was controlled and regulated to the point that there was no "price gouging" would get rid of people complaining about price? is this a joke? if some government office controlled it all so that prices could never be artificially inflated, people would still think prices are higher than they should be. then you have issues of corruption within who sets the prices. there is no perfect system.

i don't mind the price gouging honestly. i avoid it because i think its ridiculous, so i won't buy their items and i often keep in mind who spiked the prices and who didn't once it passes. but i am an adult, i can decide for myself what is too high of a price to pay. if others want to pay it, thats fine, and thats fine for the company to sell it at the price it will sell at. if anything it all teaches me to buy when prices go down if possible and then getting through the gouging is even easier. lets be honest here, we are talking about guns and ammo, not food or electricity. this isn't about survival. if you are smart you have a few guns and a bit of ammo that you always have just in case. anything beyond that is for entertainment value and practice, which frankly you can live without. so when we get into gouging sessions, why buy? whats the rush? don't listen to all the panic and the gouging won't bother you one bit.

people that think total price control is the answer are flat out hilarious. there are hundreds of examples across the world that show government control of markets does not mean everyone has more access to goods. that doesn't mean there should be no control and allow complete monopolies either.

[Bailey Guns]

When prices go up it creates opportunity. Some people won't pay the higher price. That creates opportunity for someone else to purchase the item. If you really want something during a time of high demand, and the price is low, most likely the item you want won't be available because someone else will have bought it. There are advantages.

[Bailey Guns]

Even in time of emergency there is no gouging.

Exactly.

[hatidua]

I didn't feel sorry for people caught with no chair when the music stopped last time but I was (generally) polite about it. With prices and availability where they are right now, it's going to be nearly impossible not to laugh out loud at people caught unprepared next time. And there will be a next time.

[roberth]

I didn't feel sorry for people caught with no chair when the music stopped last time but I was (generally) polite about it. With prices and availability where they are right now, it's going to be nearly impossible not to laugh out loud at people caught unprepared next time. And there will be a next time.

Agreed.

I would ask the same question I did last time. What unnecessary items did you buy instead of buying a rifle? Did you buy a big new TV when the old one was fine, lift kit for your truck, a hot tub that you use twice a year, a vacation, a 3rd or 4th car....what did you do with that money instead of buying a couple cases of ammo?

The thing is that the media tells people to buy stuff and the banks via FedRes/FedGov don't encourage savings. As a result when they really NEED or WANT something they're out of cash and credit then they bitch about gouging. It is their own fault, I know because I've been there and done that and it was my fault.

[MrPrena]

I think both side of Gauge or Supply&demand market needs data and metrics, before they seriously want to argue.
Just saying it is "gauging" or "it is just Supply and Demand" on forum is no harm no foul. It is purely their opinion. If you want to prove others wrong, bring the data and metrics to back up what you spit out of your mouth. I assure you the econometrics and math ain't going to be easy. What I know is that I am not going to argue it is gouging or just purely supply and demand. It is just an opinion. Both or neither can be correct. who cares!

EXAMPLES:
Can I buy the entire supply of insulin or flu vaccine and start charging 250% premium? It is supply and demand, isn't it?
Can vendor buy 20% of NA supply of Rhodium (or PM futures) and let the market change the price?It is price gauging , isn't it?

In order to find out they are gauging, they need to gather data and find out the supply and demand curve to find out the elasticity. If it is usually inelastic of "this and that" then it is USUALLY safe to say vendors are gauging. Then they need to find out by region or any dead weight loss. Then, we need to figure out the historical data on those as well base on proportionality based on [geo]political change vs price vs elasticity of Demand and Supply curve. If it is countries which import/export that good or widget, they need to apply some of the international trade model as well.

[spqrzilla]

Unbridaled capitalism gives you robber barons and the great depression. The greatest middle class in American history was created under a 90%+ tax code and the people at the top still did not want for anything.

Complete horse manure. Such "unbridaled" ignorance.

"Robber barons" itself is nonsense on stilts. The Great Depression came about because of government interference with market forces, not capitalism. And it lasted longer in the US than elsewhere in the world because of government policies.

And the "90% tax code" crap is especially ignorant. I get especially pissed off when twits repeat this nonsense. When the US had a "90%" marginal tax rate, there was so much that qualified as deductions against income - including all interest payments - that it was actually a lower effective tax rate than today.

[Gman]

I was reading a fine example of what happens when our government tries to play with business through the disincentives of taxation just yesterday;
Walgreens may be next big firm to 'move' overseas (http://www.sfgate.com/business/bottomline/article/Walgreens-may-be-next-big-firm-to-move-overseas-5587095.php)


Seagate Technology, inventor of 5.25-inch hard disc drive, is a Silicon Valley company, right? Er, no, actually it's Irish.

Jazz Pharmaceuticals, the Palo Alto developer of a host of new drugs, is also an Irish company.


Applied Materials, the 37-year-old semiconductor, equipment and solar company in Santa Clara, is about to turn Japanese.


All three have undergone a "corporate inversion," also known as a "tax inversion," whereby a business acquires an overseas company, switches official tax domicile to the overseas country, and - voila! - no more U.S. taxes on overseas earnings.


"They are, in effect, renouncing their U.S. citizenship to cut their tax bill," noted Max Baucus, former chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, in 2002, just after U.S. companies including Tyco International and Ingersoll-Rand undertook highly publicized inversions in the 1990s.


Now we have Walgreens, about to complete its multibillion-dollar purchase of European drugstore chain Alliance Boots, and perhaps magically become a citizen of Switzerland, as shareholders want. "We're looking at all and everything" in connection with the acquisition, Walgreens CEO Craig Wasson said on an earnings call last week, including "what the structure could do as far as our effective tax rate."

[roberth]

I was reading a fine example of what happens when our government tries to play with business through the disincentives of taxation just yesterday;
Walgreens may be next big firm to 'move' overseas (http://www.sfgate.com/business/bottomline/article/Walgreens-may-be-next-big-firm-to-move-overseas-5587095.php)

Smart moves for businesses, if I had one I'd move it too. There is no longer an advantage to being in the U.S., remember what the king said "no country shall be above any other" and this is the result of the king's bullshit...more globalism and US citizens lose their jobs in the process.

[Gman]

Yup. EPS of an additional 75% is no small matter.

Obamacare is a huge incentive for outsourcing as well.

...but everything if fine.

[roberth]

Yup. EPS of an additional 75% is no small matter.

Obamacare is a huge incentive for outsourcing as well.

...but everything if fine.

I'll hear in October if my company is going to continue to provide insurance or if they're going to dump us into the exchange. WooooHooooo socialism is so wonderful, everything is mediocre, no incentive to be the best when you just get taxed more.

[Great-Kazoo]

So where's the hound? He like others, seem to fade out after FACTS are presented, time and time again.

Wonder if the mods might start another Forum. We can call it I'm in Denial. Or How being a progressive has worked for me.

Even better............................................ ... Boozin Pound Puppies.

Since the free thinkers have cute,puppy names and a thing for the cheese head state.

[SouthPaw]

There is no such thing as price gouging. Ask yourself what it is going to cost you to replace said item.

[roberth]

So where's the hound? He like others, seem to fade out after FACTS are presented, time and time again.

Wonder if the mods might start another Forum. We can call it I'm in Denial. Or How being a progressive has worked for me.

Even better............................................ ... Boozin Pound Puppies.

Since the free thinkers have cute,puppy names and a thing for the cheese head state.

Maybe he is reading Henry Hazlitt's book, Economics in One Lesson.

[Great-Kazoo]

Maybe he is reading Henry Hazlitt's book, Economics in One Lesson.


Abridged or on line version?

[roberth]

Abridged or on line version?

I have the book, I don't know about abridged or online versions.

[Bailey Guns]

That's not really fair. It's Sunday and it's nice out. I didn't stay tied to my computer all day.

But I get tired of hearing people bitch about companies moving overseas also. They blame it on the "corporations" because we all know that's become a dirty word. Of course they move overseas. The environment here is just hateful to business.

[Great-Kazoo]

That's not really fair. It's Sunday and it's nice out. I didn't stay tied to my computer all day.

.


Well that explains it. Here i am believing it's monday[facepalm] No wonder my rep wasn't answering their phone.

[spqrzilla]

But I get tired of hearing people bitch about companies moving overseas also. They blame it on the "corporations" because we all know that's become a dirty word. Of course they move overseas. The environment here is just hateful to business.

The market for capital is global. Some people are entirely too stupid to understand what they means. In 2012, 52% of America demonstrated that level of stupidity.

[Great-Kazoo]

The market for capital is global. Some people are entirely too stupid to understand what they means. In 2012, 52% of America demonstrated that level of stupidity.

Again !

[Hound]

Actually for those paying bills at the time way before cell phones. The break up of Ma bell in to what was then called The Baby Bells, caused rate increases for use of service. No matter what you read, unless you were there, it wasn't for the better of mankind, after it was said and done. Our monthly phone bill was testament.

Actually I was there and remember when even calling out of your area code from say (303) to (720) was considered long distance and could cost you dollars per minute. A call to say San Francisco or New York was serious money that would necessitate keeping the call short or collect. Now we can call anywhere in the US for as long as we want with unlimited plans and even call to other countries for pennies. Ya, I am thinking the breakup of that monopoly was a good thing.


Who determines MODERATION, You, the market, buyer seller? personally, between you and a few other members, i am surprised (or not) the "progressive view" touted . You and others may not see , and or vehemently deny it. The same buzz words permeate almost every other post made. Hell you even managed to include Income Redistribution / EQUALITY, in this last post
The original question was not how to fix it. The original question was if gouging was real or myth. The answer is clear and to deny it is ignorant. Websters defines it as


: to subject to extortion or undue exaction : overcharge (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overcharge)


— goug·ernoun

Where that point is, is not what was being asked and is often hard to define. This is not left or right or even up for debate. It is clearly defined in economics, the dictionary and by the common man when they know/feel they are being taken advantage of.



I have to agree with Kazoo. Your post if full of leftist myths...the largest of which is the 90% tax rate. First of all, virtually no one paid 90%.

So it did exist, meaning not a myth ;)


There were so many deductions that it was nearly impossible. Secondly, tax receipts/revenues in post war America (since 1945 until now) have stayed in the range of 15% to 20% of GDP. Secondly, for many years after the war there was no competition to US businesses because of the destruction from WWII. Another example, in 1944 the highest tax rate was 94%. In reality, the avg tax rate paid for people in that bracket was only 40% due to all of the deductions available. That continued into the 50s in terms of deductions available.

And during the time I was talking. Thank you for the conformation although you are wrong here. Actually this is what Reagan killed when he cut taxes. So no, the tax's were cut, while Social security was raided due to 'surpluses' that 'our children will pay for', which is what is now happening with SSN becoming insolvent. My generation ARE those children.


The top 10% of income earners in the country already pay 70% of all taxes. That means the remaining 90% pay only 30% of taxes. And don't forget the 47% who pay nothing or nearly nothing in income taxes. It's not about the rich paying their fair share...another liberal myth to appeal to their low-information base. Even CNN, hardly a hotbed of conservatism, agrees with those tax numbers.

Numbers can be used by both sides but the reality is that that 47% are at or near poverty and that 10% you conveniently used includes a good portion of the middle class that are nowhere near the top 1%er's that own so much of the wealth yet pay so little comparatively. Good try, but that BS tactic is easy to call out. The Bloombergs and Koch's of the world pay little by percentage…. just ask Mitt, he will tell ya all about it.


It sounds to me like you're a firm believer in equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Did you not read my post? I am not against capitalism, I just believe that there should be limits so there IS opportunity. Do you really think somebody can go toe-to-toe with a Bloomberg or Koch….. or their children? That the mom and pop shops can compete with a WalMart opening up in a small town? I believe in the little guy and giving them a chance. I don't support To-Big-to-Fail…. we already tried that one.[Mad]


And you've gone way beyond the scope of the OP. We're not talking about corporate monopolies and whether or not they're good or bad. There are plenty of monopolies that make products/services less expensive for people...utilities are a prime example. Patents are another example of how a monopoly, encouraged and managed by the federal gov't, provides incentive for invention and innovation. It's true the tradeoff is sometimes higher prices for a product...but that's the incentive to create.

Funny how you keep trying to cry out-of-bounds when if you actually read what I said it is spot on to what the OP started with. Monopoly's are a prime example of the fact that gouging happens. There would not be an 'Apple' if the regulations against monopolies had not kicked in just before they were going to cut up Microsoft they way the did MaBell. I was there during that one too. You can try to re-write history all you want but the facts are again clear.


Furthermore, capitalism does not squelch entrepreneurism. I'd venture to say it does just the opposite. And while I am a supporter of the military I'd really like to hear why a CEO (and I'm going to assume you're talking about a CEO of a very large corporation making millions of dollars) responsible for a billion dollar corporation and the thousands of people employed there relates to a military member who volunteered not only to join the military, but also to do a particular job. That's a real stretch that I seriously doubt you can explain rationally. I happen to think many entertainers (sports figures, movie stars, etc...) make WAY too much money but others don't. That's why a football player makes millions and your same EOD guy gets paid on the military wage scale.

Never said capitalism squelches entrepreneurism, read it again. What I said was unbridled capitalism would, meaning Monopolies. What you and the rest have done is not actually read and understand what was said because you assume talking points that are not there. All of my statements have been toward moderation because absolutes generally lead to the worst of whatever is being debated. But now days nobody seems to be able to find a middle ground to agree on and move down the road. We have to be crabs in a basket pulling each other down in the false belief that one day our side will win at the cost of the 'other side'.


Under your "gouging" explanation in the gun/ammo world, explain why it's bad for prices to go up and consumers have to pay more, but it's not bad for prices to come down to the point where suppliers (retailers and manufacturers) make less. It should be apparent that some are struggling to sell inventory...that will likely lead to layoffs or even downsizing if it continues. Who's getting hurt if that happens?

I thought that was the point of capitalism, to come to the best product at the lowest price for the betterment of the whole. Not just make a few rich off the backs of everybody else.


Lastly, if another revolution is imminent, and I have my doubts (I'd go so far as to say it won't happen in my lifetime), it certainly has nothing to do with the fact that gun prices were high while supplies were low. Capitalism is the best economic system yet devised by man that ensures everyone has a shot not only at wealth but the fruits of competition.
ya…. "that ensures everyone has a shot" if only that were true now. The point of a monopoly is to crush all competition and make sure nobody has a shot. Corporations never buy off either side of the the Gov to further their iron grip and stiffel competition. I guess you like the way the government works now?


So where's the hound? He like others, seem to fade out after FACTS are presented, time and time again.

Actually I was ending up my travels from Europe…. you know…. working??????


Wonder if the mods might start another Forum. We can call it I'm in Denial. Or How being a progressive has worked for me.

Even better............................................ ... Boozin Pound Puppies.Since the free thinkers have cute,puppy names and a thing for the cheese head state.

My name comes from when I was much younger being so persistent and keeping on when others quit. It's not a noun, it is a verb. I guess when your responses are so weak you need to resort to name calling…... You'er a real class act there. Even after I was sticking up for you recently. I still would again if I saw somebody attacking you or another member for no real reason. Bailey, we might not agree on things but that really was a class act, a good/clean debate should be possible without resorting to that level.

In the end I get that most on this forum have a different view on economics, that is fine. I doubt either side will budge much. The original statement was that gouging is a myth. That is patently not true, economic classes or a common dictionary prove this. Where it becomes gouging, what to do about it, etc that is a different discussion. When somebody posts an $8000 Keltec KSG [that should sell for somewhere in the $8-900 dollar range] on Armslist (that gets taken down for gouging) we all know it is gouging. We don't have to stop it, buy/not buy it or even say anything to know what it is and that is not a myth.

[Great-Kazoo]

Actually I was there and remember when even calling out of your area code from say (303) to (720) was considered long distance and could cost you dollars per minute. A call to say San Francisco or New York was serious money that would necessitate keeping the call short or collect. Now we can call anywhere in the US for as long as we want with unlimited plans and even call to other countries for pennies. Ya, I am thinking the breakup of that monopoly was a good thing.

.


Um incorrect. You can call anywhere with unlimited time because COMPETITION forces one to keep up with their business rivals. If you look back X years Verizon was one of the last cell providers to do unlimited talk / text.

You're unicorn logic, IE limits, so there is opportunity is Income Redistribution. Those who have need to be sharing or stepping back so others can become "equals" is pathetic. Why should my successful business step back so a competitor, who runs a shitty business plan. becomes a better income earner than me ?
Your logic says that's "fair" Fuck Fair. There's a reason it's called COMPETITION.

[Hound]

Um incorrect. You can call anywhere with unlimited time because COMPETITION forces one to keep up with their business rivals. If you look back X years Verizon was one of the last cell providers to do unlimited talk / text.

You're unicorn logic, IE limits, so there is opportunity is Income Redistribution. Those who have need to be sharing or stepping back so others can become "equals" is pathetic. Why should my successful business step back so a competitor, who runs a shitty business plan. becomes a better income earner than me ?
Your logic says that's "fair" Fuck Fair. There's a reason it's called COMPETITION.

Do you even read your own posts? We were talking about the breakup of MABELL, which had NO COMPETITION........ Monopoly... Ringing a bell? The courts said they were gouging people.... In a legal decision. The reason there IS a Verizon and competition is because it is a 'Baby Bell'........ The result of the anti-competitive breakup of the monopoly called MABELL. I know you are old enough to remember the break up.... Maybe too old?

[Great-Kazoo]

Sorry hound. This is my last reply in he said , she said.

I read your opinions and all I hear is Pelosi saying, as she embraces those ILLEGALS "This is an Opportunity" really, for what?

[Hound]

Sorry hound. This is my last reply in he said , she said.

I read your opinions and all I hear is Pelosi saying, as she embraces those ILLEGALS "This is an Opportunity" really, for what?

Wow... And I got accused of being off topic?

[jhood001]

Companies move overseas because their shareholders don't give two shits about where their profits come from. There is a disconnect between the every day American's beliefs and where their money can and does come from.

I was a little shocked when I read about Hobby Lobby's alleged investment practices today. While I agree with the ruling in their case, I'll be looking at my own investments in great detail over the next week in order to make a determination as to whether I am or am not supporting companies that don't coincide with my beliefs.

I'll give Hobby Lobby a pass because 'they didn't know' just like I don't know when it comes to some of the funds I have money in. But it will take me about a week to get my investment affairs in order. I would think a corporate entity could make their changes as fast if not faster than I can make my own.

So what is the relevance of my post in this thread? Blind investment empowers all of these companies whether they are good or bad. Whether you agree with them or not.


Reference: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers

In hindsight, I probably should have started a new thread for this. Sorry for the semi-derail.

It's a Mother Jones article, but I have no reason to doubt their investigative journalism at this point.

[MrPrena]

The Stolper-Samuelson and Rybczynski theorem proves what is happening with capital and labor market right now in US.

concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolper%E2%80%93Samuelson_theorem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybczynski_theorem
basic math
http://internationalecon.com/Trade/Tch115/T115-2.php
http://internationalecon.com/Trade/Tch115/T115-3.php

[Sharpienads]

I think what we're forgetting here, and jhood alluded to it, is that the most important part of capitalism IMO is the consumer. The consumer must be responsible. When people pay what I would consider ridiculous prices for something, like $400 for a stripped blemished lower, they are not being responsible. When you give money to a company that doesn't respect your beliefs, you are not being responsible. Of course it's not always avoidable. But you can't have "robber barons" and "monopolies" without consumers. The more free the market, the more responsible we as consumers have to be.

If you don't like being responsible for yourself, then by all means let the government make decisions for you in moderation.



EXAMPLES:
Can I buy the entire supply of insulin or flu vaccine and start charging 250% premium? It is supply and demand, isn't it?



Sure, but what good is that going to do you when nobody can afford it? Not to mention you're gonna have a lot of pissed off people. And then somebody is just going to make it cheaper and put you out of business and now you have a bunch of expired insulin or flu shots.

[spqrzilla]

Hound, there is an amazing amount of stuff that you "know" that just isn't so. As just one example, yes, I actually read the decision of Judge Greene in breaking up the AT&T / Bell monopoly. And in fact, AT&T wasn't "gouging" anyone. What they were doing was subsidizing infrastructure costs by charging high rates for long distance. And the reality is also that AT&T wanted to be broken up, because competitors were offering long distance services to large companies at a high discount.

Unbridled capitalism cannot lead to monopolies, because monopolies can't exist without government intervention. AT&T controlled the local telephone business because of the actions of government public utilities commissions. It was the "unbridled" competition in long distance phone service offerings to business that change the market and broke up AT&T.


... the reality is that that 47% are at or near poverty... Utter horse manure. This is so out of this world ridiculous that I wonder what planet you actually live on.

And your Koch fascination only reinforces the silliness of your rhetoric.

[MED]

Personally, I regulate myself. If something is more then I want to pay for it, I won't buy it. During the panic, I over-paid on mags because I wanted them before the ban. I am not shooting two bricks of 22lr a month anymore because I am not willing to pay more then $25 a brick to shoot it. If people are willing to pay, then the inflated prices will hold steady until it crashes like AR components now. Something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. It is frustrating at times, yes, but what would work better? It is a real pain to find reloading supplies, but that is because nobody wants to get caught with their pants down again. Whether the panic is justified or not, I am pretty sure that things won't get any better on the political front so I guess it is buy what you can while you can and be prepared. If you think an individual or a business is being unreasonable, use your wallet to send a message; that is what I do.

[<MADDOG>]

I always enjoy reading different opinions on these threads, and minus the name calling from the typical players; there are usually good arguments.

That being said, I'll do some reading on the economics of the illegal drug market. Perfect case of a supply and demand market with 100% government intervention, true?

[merl]

Unbridled capitalism cannot lead to monopolies, because monopolies can't exist without government intervention.

Absolutely false (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly)
I don't want to get drawn into the rest of it but couldn't let that stand.

[Hound]

Personally, I regulate myself. If something is more then I want to pay for it, I won't buy it. During the panic, I over-paid on mags because I wanted them before the ban. I am not shooting two bricks of 22lr a month anymore because I am not willing to pay more then $25 a brick to shoot it. If people are willing to pay, then the inflated prices will hold steady until it crashes like AR components now. Something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. It is frustrating at times, yes, but what would work better? It is a real pain to find reloading supplies, but that is because nobody wants to get caught with their pants down again. Whether the panic is justified or not, I am pretty sure that things won't get any better on the political front so I guess it is buy what you can while you can and be prepared. If you think an individual or a business is being unreasonable, use your wallet to send a message; that is what I do.

This is pretty spot on to where I am coming from. Does gouging exist, absolutely but that does not mean I nessasarily have to do anything about it even if I could. We all vote for priceing in how we spend our money, this is where you and 'Sharp' are correct for most situations. If I see what I think is gouging, I may or may not say anything about it. That is free speech. But to me, a spade is a spade. This works for most things in life. There are others, where there is no choice, that are a longer discussion.

[Hound]

Hound, there is an amazing amount of stuff that you "know" that just isn't so. As just one example, yes, I actually read the decision of Judge Greene in breaking up the AT&T / Bell monopoly. And in fact, AT&T wasn't "gouging" anyone. What they were doing was subsidizing infrastructure costs by charging high rates for long distance. And the reality is also that AT&T wanted to be broken up, because competitors were offering long distance services to large companies at a high discount.

Unbridled capitalism cannot lead to monopolies, because monopolies can't exist without government intervention. AT&T controlled the local telephone business because of the actions of government public utilities commissions. It was the "unbridled" competition in long distance phone service offerings to business that change the market and broke up AT&T.

Utter horse manure. This is so out of this world ridiculous that I wonder what planet you actually live on.

And your Koch fascination only reinforces the silliness of your rhetoric.

I 'know' what your 'facts' are full of ;) you mention it yourself. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid!!!

MaBell fought it tooth and nail. If they 'wanted' to break up they would have without being taken to court. What competators, if you read the decision you would know there were none. MaBell owned all the lines.

Next one already called out.

I have always called out both Bloomberg and the Koch's because both use their massive wealth as a hammer on the politics of this country (both left and right), which I don't agree with. I go back to one man one vote priciples, not how much politics can your money buy. That is not rhetoric, the word does not mean what you think it means [but good try on toeing the party line;)]

[WillysWagon]

Just picked up 2 PA Micro Red Dots for $49.95 (free shipping), I'd say that's a great deal.
Might have to get a couple more for future builds !!

Buy while the buying is good. [Beer]

This is also my way of getting the thread back on track in relation to "lower" prices on AR parts and whatnot !!

[merl]

Just picked up 2 PA Micro Red Dots for $49.95 (free shipping), I'd say that's a great deal.
Might have to get a couple more for future builds !!

Buy while the buying is good. [Beer]

This is also my way of getting the thread back on track in relation to "lower" prices on AR parts and whatnot !!

The buying is good right now and probably only going to get better over the next year or so. Here is to powder supplies recovering before 2016.

[Jamnanc]

Hear hear. And 22 ammo.

[roberth]

So prices are lower than they have been, why isn't anyone crying about that.

Just another reason there isn't any such thing as "gouging", because AR parts swing the other way too.

[Sharpienads]

So prices are lower than they have been, why isn't anyone crying about that.

Just another reason there isn't any such thing as "gouging", because AR parts swing the other way too.

Obviously PA is using predatory pricing so that the other red dot companies go out of business and then they'll have a monopoly.

[Great-Kazoo]

Obviously PA is using predatory pricing so that the other red dot companies go out of business and then they'll have a monopoly.

OR like every other firearm parts & acc vendor. They are dumping inventory so they're not paying taxes for items in stock. The supply surpassed the demand months ago. My business doesn't want dust collecting , where fresh capital should be.

[Bailey Guns]

Whispers...it was sarcasm, Jim.

[Great-Kazoo]

Whispers...it was sarcasm, Jim.

My bad. looks i'm destined for some L&P shenanigans. Think coojoe had a relapse, possibly milshooter faded as his second string.

[<MADDOG>]

I don't see taxation on illegal drugs...

Government & money=corrupt system IMO.

The free market, by definition, has no controls on it.

Anyway, while some may "wrong", again look at the drug trade. Hell, look at prostitution for that matter. The market, even the black one, determines prices.

Long story short: the law of supply and demand. Prohibition, the drug war, and to put it into context, firearm prices, confirm it.

My $.02.

[roberth]

Obviously PA is using predatory pricing so that the other red dot companies go out of business and then they'll have a monopoly.

...and then they'll take over the world. [LOL]

[MrPrena]

I think what we're forgetting here, and jhood alluded to it, is that the most important part of capitalism IMO is the consumer. The consumer must be responsible. When people pay what I would consider ridiculous prices for something, like $400 for a stripped blemished lower, they are not being responsible. When you give money to a company that doesn't respect your beliefs, you are not being responsible. Of course it's not always avoidable. But you can't have "robber barons" and "monopolies" without consumers. The more free the market, the more responsible we as consumers have to be.

If you don't like being responsible for yourself, then by all means let the government make decisions for you in moderation.



Sure, but what good is that going to do you when nobody can afford it? Not to mention you're gonna have a lot of pissed off people. And then somebody is just going to make it cheaper and put you out of business and now you have a bunch of expired insulin or flu shots.

I was trying to make an example of elasticity with the insulin and precious metal...........

[MrPrena]

I remember when I was working at global100 company about 11 years ago. one of the company was saying that we were violating Robinson-Patman Act of '36.
We ROFLed at his dumbass without bringing any data nor evidences.

[tmleadr03]

The crux of this thread, at least if you read the OP and talk directly to that, is this: If it is morally wrong to raise prices during an emergency (i.e. price gouging) then is it also morally wrong to take advantage of LOW prices when there isn't an emergency? If they are wrong for charging too much, are you wrong for paying too little?

If you believe in unicorns and price gouging then you should not be paying lower prices because morally you are the same as the people charging too much during the emergency.

[hollohas]

Just picked up 2 PA Micro Red Dots for $49.95 (free shipping), I'd say that's a great deal.
Might have to get a couple more for future builds !!

Buy while the buying is good. [Beer]

This is also my way of getting the thread back on track in relation to "lower" prices on AR parts and whatnot !!
Got an email for this sale yesterday. Went on this morning to buy some...sold out. Damn!

[TFOGGER]

...and then they'll take over the world. [LOL]

http://www.homeschoolmarketplace.com/images/pinkyandbrain3.jpg

[WillysWagon]

Got an email for this sale yesterday. Went on this morning to buy some...sold out. Damn!

PA has them for the same price, just have to pay for shipping.

[Bailey Guns]

Bunch a greedy bastards taking advantage of a downturn in the market...

Nevermind...I gotta see what kind of deals PSA has today.

[roberth]

Bunch a greedy bastards taking advantage of a downturn in the market...

YEAH...what he said!!!! [Beer]

[roberth]

http://www.homeschoolmarketplace.com/images/pinkyandbrain3.jpg

:)