Well this should adequately stir the pot...

[Zombie Steve]

Army wants a harder hitting pistol:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/?intcmp=features (http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/?intcmp=features)



I'm going to go ahead and pray towards Ogden, Utah. Saint JMB protect us!

[Zombie Steve]

...and who shoots like this?

http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/m9pistol%20army.jpg

[cstone]

1911 to 1985 and now 1985 to 2015? So one pistol made it through 70+ years and two world wars while the M9 only made it 30 years.

For all the money the DOD doesn't have, they sure do have lots of people looking to spend more.

Pistol calibers suck when it comes to "hitting hard."

[Zombie Steve]

G20? Darn near disposable...

Course, they'll never consider anything that doesn't have a manual safety.


It's really not hard to find a step up, but then people will complain about recoil, grip size, loss of capacity and everything else. Since they already tell soldiers to love it or leave it...


I really do think the 1911 with ball ammo is about right.

[cstone]

How much tax payer money would the DOD pay to buy 200,000 new 1911s? Will that money make soldiers safer and more effective than they are now with the M9?

I'd upgrade the M9s and use the rest of the money to pay down the debt or at least not increase the debt.

[Zombie Steve]

There you go with the whole reality thing. [facepalm]

[Coffee]


I am wondering why they said .40 wears out guns quicker... operates at the same pressures as 9mm.

[mtnrider]

They'll probably make the switch back to a 45acp. .... Then in a few years come out and say that the female soldiers (and gender confused males) cannot handle the recoil of the 45 and switch back to a 9.

[cysoto]

How much tax payer money would the DOD pay to buy 200,000 new 1911s? Will that money make soldiers safer and more effective than they are now with the M9?

I'd upgrade the M9s and use the rest of the money to pay down the debt or at least not increase the debt.
Truer words of wisdom haven't been spoken! :Two_Thumbs_Up:

[thvigil11]

I vote for a complete change. This is my recommended service pistol. Automag III. Bring back the 30 Carbine.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/MY_AUTOMAG_III.JPG/300px-MY_AUTOMAG_III.JPG

[SuperiorDG]

Funny I just was reading this morning on why the military went from the M1911 to the M9.

When the United States military chose the Beretta Model 92 (http://www.guns.com/2013/04/09/the-beretta-m1951-meet-the-m9s-daddy/) to replace the all-American M1911 as the standard sidearm, people lost their minds. It was as if society forgot about the M16′s failure in Vietnam (http://www.guns.com/2011/05/05/the-us-special-forces-and-their-guns-and-gear-or-at-least-the-stuff-we-know-about/) and all the men who died as a result, did so for nothing. Once again the military bought into some gun company’s marketing hype and ditched a successful design for a smaller-caliber weapon with no perceivable gains.
The M1911 had seen our troops through WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and even earned a reputation for stopping enemies in their tracks. After all that, the brass wanted to ditch the hard-hitting workhorse for some Italian design based off a Nazi pistol that the 1911 clearly outclassed?!
Personally, I’m not happy with the decision, but I understand why they chose to go with it. Regardless, from a soldier’s perspective, the decision to adopt the Beretta M9 and phase out the beloved brainchild of John Moses Browning seemed insane. Why would someone ever downgrade equipment?
When the military terminated the use of the M1911 in 1979, the Cold War showed no signs of ending. Experts believed the next conflict with the Soviets would take place in the forests and plains of Europe, against an adversary that would use its numerical superiority to its full advantage. Military strategists saw the M16′s adoption as a force multiplier — each man could carry more ammo and store 50 percent more ammo in standard magazines.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M9_vs_1911.jpg (http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M9_vs_1911.jpg)The M1911 and its replacement, the M9. (Photo by Jim Grant)

Such a weapon would have been invaluable to troops in Korea facing Chinese human-wave attacks. Military tacticians reasoned that if reducing a weapon’s caliber and increasing its capacity worked for the infantryman’s rifle, the same would work for their sidearm. It’s important to note that this all took place during the dawn of the wonder-nine (http://www.guns.com/2013/07/10/the-ruger-p-guns-the-80s-are-calling-they-want-their-handgun-back/) – the age when police departments ditched their .357 Magnum revolvers (http://www.guns.com/review/2014/06/12/is-the-ruger-gp100-match-champion-better-than-an-smith-wesson-video/) for steel-framed high capacity 9mm semi-automatic pistols. With Beretta releasing the M92 only four years prior, it was a natural choice with its 15-round magazine. Military strategists reasoned that the increased capacity offered each soldier more than double the capacity of the M1911 before reloading, a godsend when overrun.
People who argue stopping-power and round lethality fail to grasp the concept of modern warfare. Modern combat is more about logistics and supply, rather than an individual soldier’s capability. The only time individuals and their gear are crucially important are in special operations. Even in that instance, they are no more ‘important’ than a single guided munition.
For a modern comparison, think of NATO as a fire team of four soldiers going into a small skirmish. Germany has their soldier with his G36 rifle (http://www.guns.com/2013/11/26/heckler-koch-prepping-semi-auto-g36-commercial-market/), England has their bloke with an SA80 (http://www.guns.com/2013/05/08/the-l85-british-bullpup-the-last-enfield/), the Frenchman carries a FAMAS (http://www.guns.com/2014/03/26/famas-bullpup-assault-rifles-le-bugle-video/) and the U.S. infantryman possesses an M4A3 carbine (http://www.guns.com/2011/10/10/sig-has-finally-made-a-stock-ar-15-carbine/). While some of these rifles can swap magazines, all can exchange ammunition. It would not be pertinent for a U.S. soldier to carry a special M4 chambered in .270 Winchester when they are going into a firefight, because finding ammunition in a pinch would be a logistical nightmare.
Combat theory aside, choosing a 9mm handgun for the plains of Europe makes more sense given the ubiquity of 9mm ammo in both Germany and NATO-aligned countries and the flatter-shooting nature of the higher-velocity 9mm.
http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M9_226_1911.jpg (http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M9_226_1911.jpg)The M9, 1911 and the pistol I think should have replaced the 1911, the P226 (Photo by Jim Grant)

Furthermore, sidearms are a last-ditch weapon, often given to non-frontline individuals with little to no combat experience as a means of self-defense. In the hands of a cook (Steven Seagal (http://www.guns.com/2013/06/04/russian-manufactures-rebrand-get-kalashnikov-seagal-branding/) notwithstanding), a gun with less recoil and more rounds is a more appropriate tool than a gun with less rounds even if the rounds are more potent.
While I love the M1911, its shortcomings in open warfare are fairly apparent. On the other hands, the M9 is not the ideal replacement. I would have preferred the U.S. build a new, double-stack 1911, sadly NATO logistics would prevent it. While the forces of NATO prepared for a global war against the Soviet Union, it made sense to standardize munitions for the sake of interchangeability.
The M1911 in its military configuration has minuscule sights and limited capacity. Improvements to the design made by competitive shooters were only just becoming widely known and wouldn’t be commonplace for another decade. Given the technical limitations of the time and the predicted opponent, abandoning the M1911 as the standard military sidearm of the U.S. military made sense, even if the soldiers didn’t agree with it.


http://www.guns.com/2014/07/02/why-the-u-s-military-made-the-right-decision-ditching-the-m1911/

[Robb]

Just read this, it was news to me.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/?intcmp=features

The U.S. Army is moving forward to replace the Cold War-era M9 9mm pistol with a more powerful handgun that also meets the needs of the other services.

As the lead agent for small arms, the Army will hold an industry day July 29 to talk to gun makers about the joint, Modular Handgun System or MHS.

The MHS would replace the Army's inventory of more than 200,000 outdated M9 pistols and several thousand M11 9mm pistols with one that has greater accuracy, lethality, reliability and durability, according to Daryl Easlick, a project officer with the Army's Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia.

"It's a total system replacement -- new gun, new ammo, new holster, everything," Easlick said.

'It's a total system replacement -- new gun, new ammo, new holster, everything.'

- Daryl Easlick, project officer with the Army's Maneuver Center of Excellence

The Army began working with the small arms industry on MHS in early 2013, but the effort has been in the works for more than five years. If successful, it would result in the Defense Department buying more than 400,000 new pistols during a period of significant defense-spending reductions.

Army weapons officials maintain that combat troops need a more effective pistol and ammunition. But experts from the law-enforcement and competitive shooting worlds argue that tactical pistol ammunition -- no matter the caliber -- is incapable of stopping a determined adversary without multiple shots in most cases.

One of the major goals of the MHS effort is to adopt a pistol chambered for a more potent round than the current 9mm, weapons officials said. The U.S. military replaced the .45 caliber 1911 pistol with the M9 in 1985 and began using the 9mm NATO round at that time.

Soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan have complained that the 9mm round is not powerful enough to be effective in combat.

"The 9mm doesn't score high with soldier feedback," said Easlick, explaining that the Army, and the other services, want a round that will have better terminal effects -- or cause more damage -- when it hits enemy combatants. "We have to do better than our current 9mm."

The MHS will be an open-caliber competition that will evaluate larger rounds such as .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.

The FBI and several major police departments recently decided to return to using the 9mm round after finding that .40 caliber ammunition was causing excessive wear on its service pistols. The heavier bullet and greater recoil over time resulted in frame damage to well respected makes such as Glock and Beretta, according to Ernest Langdon, a shooting instructor and respected competitive pistol shooter who has worked for gun makers such as Beretta, Smith & Wesson, and Sig Sauer.

"Most of the guns in .40 caliber on the market right now were actually designed to be 9mm originally and then turned into .40 calibers later," Langdon told Military.com.

Langdon served 12 years in the Marine Corps where he was the chief instructor of the Second Marine Division Scout Sniper School and the High Risk Personnel Course. He's been a competitive pistol shooter for 15 years where he has won competitions in the International Defensive Pistol Association and two World Speed Shooting titles.

Larger calibers, such as .40 S&W, have significantly more recoil than the 9mm making them much harder for the average shooter to shoot accurately, he said.

"I don't think anybody would argue that shot placement is the most important for terminal ballistics," Langdon said. "Even though you say a .45 is better than a 9mm, it's still a pistol caliber. Chances are if it is a determined adversary, they are going to have to be shot multiple times regardless of the caliber."

Many law-enforcement shooting incidents have shown this to be reality, he said.

"I talked to a Chicago cop that shot a guy eight times with a .45 to kill him and that was a 230 grain Hydra-Shok," Langdon said. "And that guy now carries a 9mm …he realized that handgun bullets suck. "You have to shoot people a lot with a handgun."

Langdon has trained numerous personnel from all branches of the U.S. military, FBI, Secret Service and other federal agencies as well as state and local law enforcement.

As part of the joint requirement process for MHS, Army weapons officials did a "very thorough cost-benefit analysis" that showed supported the effort, Easlick said.

"We have got an old fleet of M9s right now; it's costing us more to replace and repair M9s than it would cost to go get a new handgun," he said.

The Army spent years on an effort to search for a replacement for its M4 carbine, but ended up adopting the improved M4A1 version used by special operations forces.

Beretta officials maintain that the company has offered to upgrade M9 many times.

"We have submitted numerous changes or product improvements that really address a lot of the shortcomings that are either perceived or real," said Gabe Bailey, Business development manager for Beretta's military division.

The Marine Corps adopted the M9A1 in 2006 that features a rail for attaching lights or lasers, checkering on the front and back of the grip and a beveled magazine well for smoother magazine changes.

Some of the improvements Beretta offered included an enhanced sight system, changing the angle of the slide-mounted safety to avoid inadvertent safety activation and a threaded barrel, Bailey said.

Army officials, however, say the M9 does not meet the MHS requirement.

"The M9 doesn't meet it for a multitude of reasons," Easlick said. "It's got reliability issues; the open slide design allows contaminates in. The slide-mounted safety doesn't do well when you are trying to clear a stoppage -- you inadvertently de-cock and safe the weapon system."

[SouthPaw]

Already being discussed here (https://www.ar-15.co/threads/134569-Well-this-should-adequately-stir-the-pot)

To be fair, his title wasn't as descriptive as yours.

[Robb]

Aw crap.

[Hound]

I wonder if they have/will look at the 5.7x28? 30Rds, light, can be armor piercing, technically a rifle round, easy to deal with, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

[Zundfolge]

Wasn't the point of the FN P90 to replace handguns for soldiers that couldn't pack a bulky rifle?

The thing is handguns suck. Period. 9mm, .40. .45 ... doesn't matter which one you pick they're all in about the same range of power. Want super power go 10mm or .357mag or even .44mag and then most soldiers won't be able to shoot it well and you'll need a real bulky handgun.

If a 9mm handgun isn't "good enough" then the military needs to develop a PDW type weapon and just stop issuing handguns.

Can you imagine a 10mm PDW similar to the Magpul PDR?

[merl]

I wonder if they have/will look at the 5.7x28? 30Rds, light, can be armor piercing, technically a rifle round, easy to deal with, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

I was wondering that as well but if the complaints really are "harder hitting" that is not the right round. Finding a handgun that is good with ball ammo is a stretch, perhaps we need to revisit hollowpoints.

[KestrelBike]

I think this will go as well as the Individual Carbine Competition and the efficiency of selecting uniforms for the different branches, in particular the army ACU :D

[ZERO THEORY]

Sig P226, please.

[Hound]

zundfolge beat me to it but

I wonder if they have/will look at the 5.7x28? 30Rds, light, can be armor piercing, technically a rifle round, easy to deal with, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

[mtnrider]

I wonder if they have/will look at the 5.7x28? 30Rds, light, can be armor piercing, technically a rifle round, easy to deal with, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

That would be nice. Would love to see this round gain a little more popularity and drive the ammo cost down and availability up. That's the main reason I don't own one yet.

With that said, I think that is a little too far "out of the box" for them to think about. It's going to be 9, 40, or 45.

[Gman]

A harder hitting pistol is called a RIFLE.

[Omicron]

Betcha they go back to a .45 ACP. Compared to a rifle any handgun round is going to suck, but a .45 sucks somewhat less. I could see 10mm, .357 Sig, or .40 as possibilities too.

[MED]

Wasn't the HK45 designed for this purpose, but the program to replace the M9 cancelled?

Would a change from 9x19 be a NATO thing or would we go it alone? ...good idea?

[Omicron]

LOL. Awesome.

[Bailey Guns]

A harder hitting pistol is called a RIFLE.

Thank you.

[Kraven251]

Not that one part of the government would look at the research of another part of the government, but the FBI already released a study that handguns as a whole are horribly inefficient at delivering effect on target.

Not getting into the caliber debate but on the whole their research proved that 9mm-.45ACP was largely the same. A pistol round is a pistol round. Really makes me wonder who Sig pissed off at the Pentagon, since the m9 was already being phased out for the m11.

[Zombie Steve]

I say give 'em the horsepower they want...


http://www.gungrove.com/files/6913/8196/9677/Ruger_Super_Blackhawk_0811.jpg

At $450 apiece and no mags to buy, it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.



[Abused]

[ray1970]

I say give 'em the horsepower they want...


http://www.gungrove.com/files/6913/8196/9677/Ruger_Super_Blackhawk_0811.jpg

At $450 apiece and no mags to buy, it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.



[Abused]

Those fancy adjustable sights are probably too complex for soldiers to figure out. Might have to dumb it down a bit for them. But I like your logic. [Awesom]

http://www.ruger.com/products/vaqueroStainless/images/5108.jpg

[Graves]

Nobody but the author went on record to say the caliber isn't cutting it...just sayin'.

[cstone]

I say give 'em the horsepower they want...

At $450 apiece and no mags to buy, it's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. [Abused]

Sorry. No manual safety. That thing is too dangerous for soldiers. [gohome]

[hatidua]

Somebody paid somebody, who paid somebody else, who bought a country club membership for a guy who has the ear of someone who can suggest new government hardware contracts.

It'd be interesting to reverse-engineer the decision making process. I'm far too old to believe in coincidences or apolitical choices anymore - follow the money.

(<--- no, I don't own a Beretta, 1911, or Sig M11, I'm simply a skeptic when it comes to how these choices are made)

[bobbyfairbanks]

That's because dbags don't change out springs enough.



There you go with the whole reality thing. [facepalm]

[Coffee]


I am wondering why they said .40 wears out guns quicker... operates at the same pressures as 9mm.

[BlasterBob]

How about a nice Model 1911A1 in .45ACP. Worked OK in the past.[blaster]

[hatidua]

How about a nice Model 1911A1 in .45ACP. Worked OK in the past.[blaster]

1911's fit too many hands and their triggers are too nice.

[asmo]

"Most of the guns in .40 caliber on the market right now were actually designed to be 9mm originally and then turned into .40 calibers later," Langdon told Military.com.

That right there made me laugh at the whole article. This isn't 1998 anymore, move on.

[asmo]

"Most of the guns in .40 caliber on the market right now were actually designed to be 9mm originally and then turned into .40 calibers later," Langdon told Military.com.

As I said in the other thread - that quote there is enough to tank the whole article.

[Gman]

How about a nice Model 1911A1 in .45ACP. Worked OK in the past.[blaster]
I believe that's what the Marines are moving to.

[asmo]

Oh, and I will lay money down now that the pistol selected will be 'multi caliber capable' - 'allowing the operator to quickly and easily change barrels and magazines to fit changing mission dynamics' or some other such marketing hype.

[KestrelBike]

Oh, and I will lay money down now that the pistol selected will be 'multi caliber capable' - 'allowing the operator to quickly and easily change barrels and magazines to fit changing mission dynamics' or some other such marketing hype.

I'm laying more money down that the pistol change won't actually happen. It's simply crony-capitalism time and Beretta's been sent the reminder to pay the right bribes.

[brutal]

You guys are dead right with the P226. Didn't they get down to the M9 vs the P226 30 years ago?

If they really want a .45ACP then the Sig P227 is the answer.

.45ACP double stack. Reliability and accuracy out the wazoo. Problem solved.

[bryjcom]

http://cdn.bearingarms.com/uploads/2014/07/mtx.png

This site is saying its going to be Detonics MTX that they adopt.

Got to say I probably want to get one

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

[KevDen2005]

Maybe try different type of ammunition than the stuff the military uses now.

[Gman]

The Hague Convention of 1907 has us limited to non-expanding projectiles when fighting national armies that also signed. When fighting militants that are not members of national forces that agreed to those same conventions, we can go to something more lethal, like the Talon.

Personally, I like the idea of going back to .45 ACP. I find it more shooter friendly than something like a .40 S&W or .357 Sig and I'm also a fan of momentum when it comes to defining ballistic capabilities.

[jerrymrc]

Just some comments in general. Back when the swap took place I was a Unit Armorer. The supposed reasons were more capacity and being a heavy gun shooting 9mm much easier for the Solider to put rounds on target. I never saw the M9 as being a Medical unit with only 25 or so pistols we got ours after I did my last arms room in 87.

Knowing a Solider that earned his BS/V using his M9 with like 13 shots on target running at a Bradley when the door opened I am not sure that any pistol round will stop someone before they can move 20yards and detonate a bomb vest under the conditions. Just my thoughts.

[Dave]

The better solution is to allow pistols to use expanding ammo. The M9 would have more stopping power with some golden saber HP's than the stupid ball ammo. I like the M9 as a pistol, it's a smooth shot for almost any shooter and easy to get rounds on target. I still think about scraping the money together to send one of mine off to Wilson Combat to get some extras put on it and some trigger and slide work done to it.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Meh, I hated the M9. As an engineer, I appreciated the design but as a shooter, I thought the pistol sucked. Trigger was stiff and the big grip didn't fit my smaller hand as well as the 1911A1. I never had problems putting rounds on target with the 1911A1 even as a college student who'd only shot pistols a few times before using a government issue (not custom made or tweaked) piece. I'll take my Mar 1943 Remington Rand over my 2001 Beretta M9 any day of the week. I won't argue about the effectiveness of modern hollowpoint bullets but if you are stuck using ball ammo, I'd rather have .45 than 9 mm at hand.

Adopting the 9x19mm because our NATO allies were using it was just stupid IMO. It's interesting we had to learn the same lesson over 100 years after we first decided to go to .45 ACP and for largely the same reasons we adopted the 1911A1 in the first place.

[Hound]

I liked the M9 when I was in but I do have large hands. That is why I bought one when I got out.

On the expanding ammo.. Pretty sure that is against the Geneva Convention, which is why there is so much ball ammo in all armies.

[roberth]

You guys are dead right with the P226. Didn't they get down to the M9 vs the P226 30 years ago?

If they really want a .45ACP then the Sig P227 is the answer.

.45ACP double stack. Reliability and accuracy out the wazoo. Problem solved.

One of the reasons they Beretta was chosen because Beretta could build a factory here pronto.

The P227 would be a great choice, I can see the list now - Glock 21, CZ 97, P227, 1911, STI 2011, Hi Point, Glock 41, P220...

Wait, this is the government, they'll pick the Coogan 1911 in 357 Magnum, a 1911 shooting a revolver cartridge, best of both worlds...or a nerf gun b/c war isn't supposed to hurt anymore.

[68Charger]

‹
I liked the M9 when I was in but I do have large hands. That is why I bought one when I got out.

On the expanding ammo.. Pretty sure that is against the Hague Convention, which is why there is so much ball ammo in all armies.

FIFY... Common mistake

[vossman]

The Army's pissed that the Marines got a new pistol so they want one. This is gonna be another huge waste of $$ and time.

[boomerhc9]

If they are wanting a harder hitting pistol, they will go with a larger round. Then people will complain about capacity.

If they went with 38 super comp, they would have a very hard hitting pistol round in just a slightly larger 9 mm cartridge.

Or they could jump to 10mm, but the problem with both is the slightly larger frame size needed, and tooling for producing the ammo.

[sniper7]

.500 s&w. Anything else is for pussies

[waxthis]

.500 s&w. Anything else is for pussies

We have a winner!

[earplug]

Many of the targets are wearing chest mounted rifle magazine pouches. A FMJ in 9MM has better penetration.

[Bailey Guns]

On the expanding ammo.. Pretty sure that is against the Geneva Convention, which is why there is so much ball ammo in all armies.

The Hague Convention of 1907 only prohibits "arms, projectiles or material which is calculated to cause unnecessary suffering."

The US Army has a history of using hollowpoint ammo since at least the mid 80s in counter-terror operations. SOCOM even contracted for Black Talons for use in the HK M23 for a period of time.

I had heard the myth about hollowpoints and the military for a long time. It was something that I'd heard so often I just assumed it was true. Then I found some Sierra Match King ammo in the armory at Buckley ANGB with some M14 rifles that had come back from Kuwait. That encouraged me to investigate a little bit.

[BlasterBob]

.45ACP with hollow point projectiles. Geneva Convention rules? I seriously doubt if any of our enemies pay any attention to those rules. Some of our current enemies resemble damn rabid animals (not meaning to disrespect the animal kingdom) so blast the bastards with something that will do some real damage and stop them in their tracks.............[blaster]
Sorry but I can't accept nomination for POTUS.[LOL]

[Dave]

.500 s&w. Anything else is for pussies

And you're footing the bill for the Army's range days? [Coffee]

[DOC]

.44 magnum Desert Eagle. That should be good enough to get you back to your rifle.

[osok-308]

The Army's pissed that the Marines got a new pistol so they want one. This is gonna be another huge waste of $$ and time.

THIS. Look, I like .45s but since the pistol is supposed to be a last ditch weapon, this should be a non-issue. Focus on harder hitting rifle calibers instead.

[sniper7]

And you're footing the bill for the Army's range days? [Coffee]

Already do!

[Hound]

‹

FIFY... Common mistake

I looked it up and stand corrected. Thanks.

[brutal]

One of the reasons they Beretta was chosen because Beretta could build a factory here pronto.

The P227 would be a great choice, I can see the list now - Glock 21, CZ 97, P227, 1911, STI 2011, Hi Point, Glock 41, P220...

Wait, this is the government, they'll pick the Coogan 1911 in 357 Magnum, a 1911 shooting a revolver cartridge, best of both worlds...or a nerf gun b/c war isn't supposed to hurt anymore.

Except the girls and girlie-men will not be able to handle a double stack .45ACP grip...

[Big E3]

I'm thinking NATO wants them to stay with the 9mm and they'll go with 357 Sig in an attempt to appease them. But, good chance it's the 40 because of the number of guns made in that caliber. I don't see them going back to the 45 diameter case with it's reduced capacity or bigger grip frame. Also betting it is a non American manufacture.

[Aloha_Shooter]

The Hague Convention of 1907 only prohibits "arms, projectiles or material which is calculated to cause unnecessary suffering."

The US Army has a history of using hollowpoint ammo since at least the mid 80s in counter-terror operations. SOCOM even contracted for Black Talons for use in the HK M23 for a period of time.

I had heard the myth about hollowpoints and the military for a long time. It was something that I'd heard so often I just assumed it was true. Then I found some Sierra Match King ammo in the armory at Buckley ANGB with some M14 rifles that had come back from Kuwait. That encouraged me to investigate a little bit.

I would very rarely ever disagree with Bailey but it's not a myth. According to graybeards on the CMP boards, the Sierra Match King used in 7.62x51 NATO M118 LR does have a (very small) hollow point but its use was justified for ballistic purposes, not for wound generation. My own 20+ years of Law of Armed Conflict training emphasized we can NOT use ammunition or weapons purposely designed to create wounds that are harder to treat. Note this restriction does not apply to illegal combatants like terrorists, only to those who are party to the Hague Convention.

[Bailey Guns]

You're right, Aloha. I should've mentioned the Match King HP bullet was designed and used for accuracy...not wounding enhancement. Thanks for the clarification.

ETA: Interesting reading HERE (http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html) and HERE.

(http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html)
In observance of this, for many years U.S. Military snipers went afield with M118 ammo, a 7.62 X 51mm 173-grain solid-tipped boat tail round manufactured to much closer tolerances than M80 "ball."

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored3 by W. Hays Parks4, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major General Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:
"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."
(http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html)

[Gman]

This thread is downright educational.

[duke_39a]

It's going to be 9mm, no way we are going away from something NATO standard like .40. I highly doubt .45 because the only guys running 45 ACP are the MARSOC guys, not all of the USMC and some "Special" units. I would bet something polymer, built in the US, with a thumb safety, light rail, and a higher reliability rate that fits in current OCIE. I think the Army is the lead for small arms for the DoD so this will influence all services pistols. Big hurdle will be whether or not the Army can actually acquire a new small arm. They've fucked up the pistol and rifle acquisition attempts so many times in the last 15 years. And in fall 2012 the Army gave Beretta another contract for up to 100,000 more guns so I'd be surprised if they actually followed through on it. It

[Irving]

What is the point of stating they want a harder hitting weapon, then just staying with 9mm? I guess they could just start loading 124g or 147g +P ammo; assuming they are shooting 115g standard pressure now.

[kidicarus13]

What is the point of stating they want a harder hitting weapon, then just staying with 9mm? I guess they could just start loading 124g or 147g +P ammo; assuming they are shooting 115g standard pressure now.

NATO spec is 124gr

[hatidua]

Except the girls and girlie-men will not be able to handle a double stack .45ACP grip...

I'm a girlie-man, there's no way I could wrap my hand around a double-stack .45, a 92FS is fat enough as it is and I sold that the moment some thinner grip designs came along.

[osok-308]

Maybe they'll start carrying AR pistols? That would be harder hitting!

[275RLTW]

What is the point of stating they want a harder hitting weapon, then just staying with 9mm? I guess they could just start loading 124g or 147g +P ammo; assuming they are shooting 115g standard pressure now.
M882 is the issue 9 mm ammo. 124 gr +P FMJ (much higher pressures than most other 9mm)

[jerrymrc]

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State." And all ammo for asscrackastan should have been XTP's or like for pistols and a mix of SP/varmint for the M4. Close up/urban any ballistic tip would not have just passed through an arm or shoulder. Longer range patrols just load them up with SP's.

Having seen some of the videos a good varmint round and its affects close in on soft targets might have made a difference in the engagements. Would have went from "Oh, he has a hole in his arm" to "Half the arm being misted". Just a thought.

[Bailey Guns]

Yep...can't disagree with that. That's one advantage to being a civilian puke...I can choose any ammo I want.

[a98kdoc]

...and who shoots like this? <Hi name is WiLL WiLL shoots like that

http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/m9pistol%20army.jpg

[jerrymrc]

Hope ya don't mind but I merged the two.

[blacklabel]

Maybe they'll start carrying AR pistols? That would be harder hitting!

Ohh! Then they could put SB15s on them, to stabilize them of course.

[T0pher]

The only soldiers wanting a bigger caliber are the ones who can't use the m9 effectively. I have, and it works fine. 7SFG is using Glock 19s. Same caliber. Shoot better = problem solved. Caliber debates are for people who can't shoot. Personally, I carry a 5.7, but I'm more likely to come into contact with armor here, than I was in Iraq,not to mention price/availability in a NATO area of operation. 9mm worked damn well there, I can promise you that.


Go Army! Beat Navy!

[Irving]

Caliber debates are for people who can't shoot.

I've found that the better I get at shooting, the less I care about caliber.

[sroz]

Go Army! Beat Navy!

Does anyone remember the last time that happened?

[T0pher]

Haha keep the faith brother. Keep the faith.


Go Army! Beat Navy!

[osok-308]

Caliber debates are for people who can't shoot.

This! When I first got into shooting I worried about handgun caliber a lot! I started with .40 and then convinced myself that .40 wasn't adequate and went with a .45 for a while. After a while I realized how dumb that notion was. I now have a 9mm for primary defense! Don't get me wrong, I still have handguns in other calibers, but I don't stress out the way I used to. To sound like the old boring firearm instructors, shot placement is everything! Handguns are weak compared to rifles and if you keep in mind what handguns are for, you won't need to find a more powerful one (unless maybe hunting with a handgun in which case the law requires certain energies to be obtained).

[Zombie Steve]

Caliber debates are for people who can't shoot.

Go Army! Beat Navy!

Sure is fun gettin' under people's skin... [Tooth]

[Omicron]

This! When I first got into shooting I worried about handgun caliber a lot! I started with .40 and then convinced myself that .40 wasn't adequate and went with a .45 for a while. After a while I realized how dumb that notion was. I now have a 9mm for primary defense! Don't get me wrong, I still have handguns in other calibers, but I don't stress out the way I used to. To sound like the old boring firearm instructors, shot placement is everything! Handguns are weak compared to rifles and if you keep in mind what handguns are for, you won't need to find a more powerful one (unless maybe hunting with a handgun in which case the law requires certain energies to be obtained).Right there with ya brotha.

Where's the "Like" button when you need it?

[cstone]

If I had a laser target designator and some spiffy zoomy at 20k with a EGBU-27, I wouldn't be thinking too hard about which type of handgun I have in my holster. Sometimes, bigger is better [Flower]

[osok-308]

This entire paper also puts the handgun caliber debates down to a science.

http://stevereichert.com/srs-handgun-caliber-choice-and-why/