Malaysian Flight Down Over Ukraine?

[thvigil11]

Saw this just now. WTF?

http://rt.com/news/173616-malaysian-crash-ukraine-border/

Searching the Webs now. Will see if there is more info.

[thvigil11]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/489495/Malaysia-passenger-plane-MH17-crashes

http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysian-plane-crash-russia-border-2014-7

[roberth]

This ought to be interesting.

[thvigil11]

All over Drudge now. Everyone seems to have caught on. Sad day. Let the finger pointing begin.

[SuperiorDG]

Say it was shot down, how does this happen?

[Monky]

Say it was shot down, how does this happen?

Meesul, or bulleets...

In all seriousness.. those poor souls on board and their families :(

[Aloha_Shooter]

Say it was shot down, how does this happen?

Ever hear of KAL 007?

[KS63]

Boeing needs to equip their aircraft with missle counter measures.

[kidicarus13]

Malaysia seems to be a dangerous place to fly from. The Russia/Ukraine region seems to be a dangerous place to fly over.

[gos]

The rebels originally tweeted they had shot down an AN-26 military transport.

Upon realizing they shot down a civilian airliner, all those tweets/posts were apparently deleted.

Why anyone thinks routing civilian aircraft within 100 miles of an active military conflict is beyond me.

[SuperiorDG]

The rebels originally tweeted they had shot down an AN-26 military transport.

Upon realizing they shot down a civilian airliner, all those tweets/posts were apparently deleted.

Why anyone thinks routing civilian aircraft within 100 miles of an active military conflict is beyond me.

I can't believe they fly over these pleases as well.

[disciple1977]

I'm not trying to sound like I have a foil hat on but itspretty freaky that the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 that went missingback in March and was never found is the same type boeing 777 Malaysia Airlinesthat was just shot down

[sellersm]

Cuz it's always a good idea to fly over a war zone... Lots of 'weirdness' with this one... Keep yer eyes open!

[BPTactical]

I'm not trying to sound like I have a foil hat on but itspretty freaky that the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 that went missingback in March and was never found is the same type boeing 777 Malaysia Airlinesthat was just shot down



Not tinfoil at all. I have always thought that aircraft would reappear someday.

[mtnrider]

I'm not trying to sound like I have a foil hat on but itspretty freaky that the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 that went missingback in March and was never found is the same type boeing 777 Malaysia Airlinesthat was just shot down


They have 14 777's in their inventory. .....Well they "had" 14 anyway.

[drew890]

Relax everyone, Obama has the Ukraine crisis under control. We're gonna stop importing AK's into the US, that will fix everything...

[Ridge]

I'm not trying to sound like I have a foil hat on but itspretty freaky that the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 that went missingback in March and was never found is the same type boeing 777 Malaysia Airlinesthat was just shot down


Over 1200 Boeing 777s have been built since they were introduced in June 1995. Malaysian Airlines bought 17 of them. I guess now they're down to 15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_777_operators

[RCCrawler]

Hmm... could it have been an assassination attempt?

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

[Ridge]

Hmm... could it have been an assassination attempt?

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

RT is literally owned and operated by the Kremlin.

[Ridge]

causes the Cold War, ferments revolution all over the planet (free AKs for everyone)

Takes two to tango. And the US did the same.

[Ridge]

It's fucking awful, but god, MH's twitter feed...

http://i.imgur.com/PVHS4Pv.png

[Ridge]

Nope. Contain the aggressor (Russia) yes, but can't see us promoting worldwide chaos and revolution.

We kinda did that all over the Middle East, Asia and South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_and_aftermath

[Great-Kazoo]

http://news.yahoo.com/maylasian-plane-crash-ukraine-russia-153426322.html

U.S. official confirms Flight MH17 shot down, but origin of missile unknown; Obama says White House is working to determine if any Americans were aboard


And if they were. Then what?

[Ridge]

And if they were. Then what?

We've already banned Russian ammo and firearms. What else can they ban over this? Vodka! The US will ban all imported alcohol from Russia!

[thvigil11]

Please start another post if you wish to fight about historic involvement in proxy wars. Lets keep this one about the current situation. Thanks.

[Aloha_Shooter]

We kinda did that all over the Middle East, Asia and South America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_and_aftermath

Big difference between responding to ComIntern adventurism and fomenting said adventurism ... but of course facts hardly enter into the matter when Wikipedia is called on to defend global socialism.

[Ridge]

but of course facts hardly enter into the matter when Wikipedia is called on to defend global socialism.

Unlike almost all forum posts, their sources are cited at the bottom of the page.

[Gman]

And if they were. Then what?
Then he will offer his condolences.

...and then head off for his 16 day vacation in Martha's Vinyard.

[Gman]

Unlike almost all forum posts, their sources are cited at the bottom of the page.
...often with dead links if you try and refer to the sourcing. Wikipedia may be a starting place for information, but it's not the destination.

The whole world seems to be escalating tensions, including here at home...but what does that have to do with MH-17?

[davsel]

Bwahahahahahahaha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWb8BGiIyoA

[Ronin13]

Bwahahahahahahaha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWb8BGiIyoA
[ROFL1]
"Blast of wind from Howard Stern's ass" wow, that's pretty powerful! LOL

[blacklabel]

[ROFL1]
"Blast of wind from Howard Stern's ass" wow, that's pretty powerful! LOL

"Can you tell us more about the HSA missile system? Ya know, based on your military career?"

[sniper7]

Bwahahahahahahaha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWb8BGiIyoA


Hahahahahaha

[hollohas]

I heard on the radio news some US intelligence official said the US is sure it was a missile and is sure it didn't come from the Ukrainians based on radar information and heat signatures we have...

[SRG720]

Not the first time this has happened in Ukraine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

First denial, then admission

[Great-Kazoo]

I heard on the radio news some US intelligence official said the US is sure it was a missile and is sure it didn't come from the Ukrainians based on radar information and heat signatures we have...

Nor did the consulate in Libya ask for assistance. Keeping in mind the spur of the moment attack was due to some top shelf video.

[roberth]

I heard on the radio news some US intelligence official said the US is sure it was a missile and is sure it didn't come from the Ukrainians based on radar information and heat signatures we have...


Nor did the consulate in Libya ask for assistance. Keeping in mind the spur of the moment attack was due to some top shelf video.

Nerve gas attack in Syria...US blames Assad, later it was found to be al queda who did the gas attack....al queda is supported by the US against Assad.

If the US government says it didn't come from Ukraine....that means it did come from Ukraine.

[Bailey Guns]

The dreaded HSA Missle System. Punked big time.

[Ridge]

Very VERY graphic video of the crash site. Bodies everywhere

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0e5_1405626203

[Gman]

Hopefully they were all quickly incapacitated with a rapid decompression at 33k feet.

[sniper7]

Yep, definitely graphic. Very sad, hopefully they find the cause very soon

[KAPA]

Boeing needs to equip their aircraft with missle counter measures.
They do. El Al and FedEx has been using them for years. Passengers need to choose an airline that isnt the cheapest ticket.

[Great-Kazoo]

They do. El Al and FedEx has been using them for years. Passengers need to choose an airline that isnt the cheapest ticket.

Or, avoid high risk flight paths.
Unfortunately finding the truth could be an exercise in futility.

[Ridge]

Or, avoid high risk flight paths.
Unfortunately finding the truth could be an exercise in futility.

There had been a NOTAM (Notice to airmen) published several hours beforehand to avoid the flight path this flight was on because of it being over a conflict zone and aircraft being shot down in the region already.

[Gman]

Thanks for staying classy, Obama...

'It looks like it may be a terrible tragedy': Obama goes AWOL again with just 40-second mention of Malaysian plane crash feared to have killed Americans before his jokey 16-minute transport speech (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html)

[Great-Kazoo]

Thanks for staying classy, Obama...

'It looks like it may be a terrible tragedy': Obama goes AWOL again with just 40-second mention of Malaysian plane crash feared to have killed Americans before his jokey 16-minute transport speech (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696366/It-looks-like-terrible-tragedy-Obama-briefly-addresses-Malaysian-plane-crash-emerges-23-U-S-passengers-board.html)




As long as he wasn't in a classroom reading to kids, at the time. WHAT DOES IT MATTER [facepalm]

[Gman]

He was briefed before he arrived in Delaware...but he didn't let that get in the way of politics as usual. I mean, you have to have priorities, right? Benghazi didn't bother him, so why should this?

[Irving]

What exactly is a missile defense system? What does it do?

[blackford76]

What exactly is a missile defense system? What does it do?

Most commonly it is a flare (for heat seeking) and chaff (shredded aluminium foil, for radar seeking) launchers near the rear of the plane to confuse the missile being fired at the aircraft.

[sniper7]

What exactly is a missile defense system? What does it do?

It is also self defense the mother and father missiles teach to the younger missiles. If they are bullied they are taught to use these tactics to remain control, defeat the threat but not self destruct. There are no Muslim versions, as they always self destruct.

[BPTactical]

It is also self defense the mother and father missiles teach to the younger missiles. If they are bullied they are taught to use these tactics to remain control, defeat the threat but not self destruct. There are no Muslim versions, as they always self destruct.

LULZ

[Bailey Guns]

Intercepted phone calls pretty much prove this was done by Russian separatists. My guess would be they got the technology for something like this from the Russian government. There will be all sorts of bitching and posturing and blame passing and then it will be over and nothing will come of it. Isn't the first time it's happened, won't be the last. Sadly.

[thvigil11]

They need to declare the skies a "Missile Free Zone", that and ban high capacity missiles.

[SRG720]

Haha, "intercepted phone calls". Yeah, reliable info those calls are considering they're being 'intercepted' by the Ukrainian govt. The same govt that denies having sam systems in the area capable of shooting down an airliner. But you see.. It was the 'terrorists' that did it!!!

They've already made a claim that a Russian AF plane shot down one of their su25s. Lots of claims, accusations, intercepted phone calls and mouth foaming flying around. But so far no evidence to substantiate any of it.

Even if the Ukrainian govt gets caught with their pants down on this they'll still spin the narrative to point the finger at Russia regardless.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Haha, "intercepted phone calls". Yeah, reliable info those calls are considering they're being 'intercepted' by the Ukrainian govt. The same govt that denies having sam systems in the area capable of shooting down an airliner. But you see.. It was the 'terrorists' that did it!!!

Did you even listen to the calls? The intercepts are pretty good. IIRC, the airliner in question was operating at normal flight altitudes for an intercontinental flight -- the SAMs in question are much more capable than MANPADS that expect to hit a helicopter or CAS/TAS aircraft at less than 10,000 ft.

[SRG720]

Do you speak Russian?

[SRG720]

Apart from Ukrainian mouth foaming and claims is it even known that the rebels have these systems??

[Ridge]

What exactly is a missile defense system? What does it do?

http://e-group.uk.net/gallery/data/500/PA128112b_resize_2.jpg

[Ridge]

Intercepted phone calls pretty much prove this was done by Russian separatists. My guess would be they got the technology for something like this from the Russian government. There will be all sorts of bitching and posturing and blame passing and then it will be over and nothing will come of it. Isn't the first time it's happened, won't be the last. Sadly.

They actually snagged an AA battery from a Ukrainian military base about 3 weeks ago.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

[SRG720]

I mean holy crap I can sit down, call some friends and make some 'intercepts' myself

[Ridge]

Do you speak Russian?

This guy on another forum I'm on does...


I tried my best to translate this transcript. I'm neither Russian, nor Ukrainian so excuse any mistakes if you are. The gist of it should be mostly correct. The audio sounds genuine, but then again who knows.

Bes: Group <Miner> just downed a plane over the village of Enakievo
Geranin: Where are the pilots? (I assume he means group Miner)
Bes: They went to look for and photograph the wreckage. It's smoking.
Geranin: When did this happen?
Bes: Around half an hour ago.
---------
Greek: Yes, Major.
Major: So, it was the Chernohinkie group that did it. Those Cossacks there at their post. The plane disintegrated in mid-air in the area of the Petropavlovka Mine. They've found the 200th corpse. Civilian.
Greek: So, what do you have there?
Major: We're certain it was civilians only.
Greek: Are there a lot of people there?
Major: Fuck.. The debris was falling in people's yards.
Greek: What kind of plane?
Major: I still don't know - I still haven't reached the main crashsite, only where the first bodies have fallen. There are remains of seats and people there.
Greek: Ok, any weapons?
Major: Not at all. Civilian items - medical supplies, towels, toilet paper.
Greek: Any documents?
Major: Yes. There's one of an Indonesian Student from the Thompson University.
---------
Kozitzin: The plane that was shot down in the Snezhogo - Tozera. It turned out it was a passenger plane. It fell in the Grabovo area - there's a sea of corpses there, women and children. Right now the Cossacks are looking it over.
Soldier: They said it was an An-26 on the TV - Ukrainian, transport, but they say it had "Malaysian Airlines" written on it! What was it doing over Ukraine?
Kozitzin: So they were bringing in spies. (They talk over each other). There is a war going on!

[SRG720]

Yeah? Its on the interwebs so it must be true, right? Pretty sophisticated hardware for a bunch of ragtag plumbers and car mechanics.

Why isn't anyone asking about all the missile systems the ukr army has in the area?

[SRG720]

Ridge, what's the source of these intercepts? Who provided them? Who stands to gain?

[SRG720]

I mean shit both the ukr govt and John McCain have already said Ukraine doesn't have those capabilities. Strange that they did have the capabilities in 2001 shooting down flight 1812...

[Aloha_Shooter]

Why are you so intent on deflecting blame from the Russophiles and Russian Army controllers in-country?

I would be highly surprised if you could put together an intercept with voice tracks matching the self-declared separatist Minister of Defense and a Russian Army officer. To be fair, I haven't seen voice print analysis on them but it would be sheer stupidity to provide the actual voice tracks (as the Ukrainians did) rather than just transcripts if simple analysis could show they were faked.

[SRG720]

John McCain of all people knows about Russian sam systems and can talk of them without a chip on his shoulder

[SRG720]

Yeah please. Its coming from Ukraine so it must be legit.

Their defense minister relays orders to his subordinates via Facebook and twitter for crying out loud

[Ridge]

Yeah? Its on the interwebs so it must be true, right? Pretty sophisticated hardware for a bunch of ragtag plumbers and car mechanics.

Why isn't anyone asking about all the missile systems the ukr army has in the area?

Again, they captured Ukrainian AA systems last month

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

[SRG720]

Deflecting blame?

Has blame already been established beyond a reasonable doubt?

[ChunkyMonkey]

^ what proof do you have to contradict what's presented so far. Mp net posts show some pictures of rebels buk system being rushed out of the area after the crash. Furthermore, rebels self claimed leader proudly posted that they shot down an aircraft assuming it's another Ukrainian an26, only to delete his post later on.

Just curious ... as many evidence point to Russia backed rebels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SRG720]

That info is unverified. But let's assume they did capture that hardware.. Does it mean they shot mh17 down? Presumed captured and they already know how to use it?

[SRG720]

Yeah, rebel leaders sitting around making fb posts and tweets. Those accounts are owned by rebel sympathizers, not the actual people.

[DHC]

Deflecting blame?

Has blame already been established beyond a reasonable doubt?

Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard for conviction. At this early juncture, the objective is to identify likeliest culprit so that evidence can be gathered to support the reasonable doubt standard. Occam's Razor engages which points pretty clearly at the rebels with support of Russia.

YMMV

[Ronin13]

There are reports that a Buk missile system shot down the flight. For the record, both Ukraine and the Russian Federation have them, so there ya go.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So far, I see nothing but obfuscation and quibbling from you. What I've seen thus far is pretty good based on my past experience -- which you can question and quibble about all you want; as the old saying goes, on the Internet no one knows you're a dog.

[Ridge]

Deflecting blame?

Has blame already been established beyond a reasonable doubt?

What could Ukraine possibly benefit from by shooting down a civilian airliner inside their own borders? And after it traveled 90% of the way across their country, just to do so in literally the last 10 minutes of it being there?

[SRG720]

Black boxes yet to be analyzed. No objective investigation even begun yet but already blame is placed and intercepts are flying around... Wow

[SRG720]

Ridge if you don't know what Ukraine gains from this incident then I'm sorry I can't explain it to you..

Over and out

[Hoser]

Black boxes yet to be analyzed. No objective investigation even begun yet but already blame is placed and intercepts are flying around... Wow

You would be amazed at the technology that is out there on tracking missle launch info.

Lots of data on this launch/shoot down is already out there.

Looking at the black boxes (voice and data) will not tell much of anything other than if the crew was alive up until impact and if the SAM blew off an engine or not.

Any way you spin it, it isnt good and almost 300 people are dead.

[Ridge]

Black boxes yet to be analyzed. No objective investigation even begun yet but already blame is placed and intercepts are flying around... Wow

Black boxes don't mean shit in this case. We already know what happened to the plane. It was shot down. Passenger jets don't have AWS systems, so there would be no notification in the cockpit of lock on or missile incoming. All we'd know from that is that it was cruising along, there was an explosion, and the plane broke up and crashed.

Here, have a video of the rebels taking an AA battery away with 2 missiles already fired from it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0

[DHC]

Ridge if you don't know what Ukraine gains from this incident then I'm sorry I can't explain it to you..

Over and out

That seems a stretch of logic to me. Consider the risk v benefit analysis that Ukrainian leaders would have processed. Shoot a foreign airliner down filled with innocents and risk possible discovery of unthinkable treachery vs the possibility of engendering some amount of international sympathy. Contrary to the West's characterization, the leadership of Ukraine are intelligent enough to recognize the fallacy of such a foolish choice.

As mentioned earlier, Occam's Razor engages and it leads to a pretty clear conclusion (conspiracy theorists notwithstanding).

[Ronin13]

So SRG's emotion-filled rants aside (no offense), the general consensus is that Russia (or agents from) downed the aircraft in order to place blame on Ukraine? Or was this a really horrible case of mistaken identity and someone (RUS or UKR) shot it down thinking it was an opposing aircraft? Either way, my question still remains: WTF is Malaysian Airlines doing flying over an active combat zone? The only non-military flights that ever flew over where I was in Afghanistan were flights going into and out of either Kabul or BAF.

[Jer]

Boeing needs to equip their aircraft with missle counter measures.
Only if the tax payer gets to foot the bill.

[DHC]

So SRG's emotion-filled rants aside (no offense), the general consensus is that Russia (or agents from) downed the aircraft in order to place blame on Ukraine? Or was this a really horrible case of mistaken identity and someone (RUS or UKR) shot it down thinking it was an opposing aircraft? Either way, my question still remains: WTF is Malaysian Airlines doing flying over an active combat zone? The only non-military flights that ever flew over where I was in Afghanistan were flights going into and out of either Kabul or BAF.

Airlines fly over regions with active ground-fighting all the time. I haven't checked, but I'd be willing to bet there were a number of other airlines flying over that region (within range of the SAM's) earlier that same day.

[Ridge]

Airlines fly over regions with active ground-fighting all the time. I haven't checked, but I'd be willing to bet there were a number of other airlines flying over that region (within range of the SAM's) earlier that same day.

Well, a Ukrainian cargo plane was shot down 2 days before, and an Su-25 attack jet a few hours after this flight.

[sniper7]

Airlines fly over regions with active ground-fighting all the time. I haven't checked, but I'd be willing to bet there were a number of other airlines flying over that region (within range of the SAM's) earlier that same day.

Virgin Atlantic, lufthansa, Singapore, KLM, air France and I'm sure several others have flown over that same area.

[Aloha_Shooter]

So SRG's emotion-filled rants aside (no offense), the general consensus is that Russia (or agents from) downed the aircraft in order to place blame on Ukraine? Or was this a really horrible case of mistaken identity and someone (RUS or UKR) shot it down thinking it was an opposing aircraft? Either way, my question still remains: WTF is Malaysian Airlines doing flying over an active combat zone? The only non-military flights that ever flew over where I was in Afghanistan were flights going into and out of either Kabul or BAF.

Not quite. I think overeager separatists downed it thinking they were going after Ukrainian Army reinforcements. Not sure if they were using Russian-provided equipment or equipment stolen from the Ukrainian Army (using Russian-provided equipment in their raids). One of the problems with proxy-wars is that there is often minimal quality control (or any kind of control) over the proxies.

If you look at the flight path, it was a normal route to Kuala Lumpur, deviations would have incurred significant fuel costs and they had no reason to think anyone would target a well-established commercial route. I saw a report they were advised the Ukrainian separatists had SAMs but didn't know the SAMs would have the range to hit commercial aircraft at over 30,000 ft. I don't know how much credence to give to it as I heard it just in passing.

[Bailey Guns]

Apparently srg's speculation is far more valuable than anyone else's speculation.

[sniper7]

Apparently srg's speculation is far more valuable than anyone else's speculation.

For now. Im still speculating my speculation.

[Graves]

Apparently srg's speculation is far more valuable than anyone else's speculation.

Reminds me of a truck buying thread.

[HoneyBadger]

It was a missile. Intent or origin unknown/unavailable at this time.

[thvigil11]

What some arguments sound like:

[Sarcasm2]

"It's a conspiracy created by all those old jews that didn't die in the holocaust. Orange you going to ask questions? Think about it, orange is the opposite of blue. And blue rhymes with jew. See? So the jews blue it away. TO TAKE OVER SPARTA. Are your logical arguments are irrelevant because you don't have real, indisputable proof. All that photographs and videos and audios must be fakz! Heard of photoshop? All those witnesses are androids working for pixar! Until you take me back in time, and let me push the launch button and shoot it down myself, I refuse to believe logic. I know what REALLY happened b. cosby I always know what REALLY happened."

[Bang]

That's what some of the quality arguments sound like. There are legitimate conspiracy's, then there are those that invent conspiracies to fill in missing parts of their psyche. In this case, it's pretty easy to see what happened.

What's next, a AlexJ headline: "GEORGE BUSH RESPONSIBLE, THERMITE FOUND ON AIRFRAME". Why do people take idiot shit like that at face value without evidence, but everything to the contrary is "fake!!!"

I love reading conspiracy forums for this exact reason. Pure, 100%, entertainment. If I didn't know better, I'd say you actually copied this directly from a wacko forum rant.

[Gman]

It's tragic and shouldn't have happened...but it did. I'm sure the picture of what happened will get clearer after day 1.

[Ridge]

I love reading conspiracy forums for this exact reason. Pure, 100%, entertainment. If I didn't know better, I'd say you actually copied this directly from a wacko forum rant.

I used to. But this place just made me angry.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy

[Ronin13]

It was a missile. Intent or origin unknown/unavailable at this time.
/thread.

[ChunkyMonkey]

/thread.

Not til Obama apologizes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ronin13]

Not til Obama apologizes
Don't hold your breathe on that one... [mop]

[Gman]

Obama condemns Russia after airliner downed in Ukraine (http://news.msn.com/world/obama-condemns-russia-after-airliner-downed-in-ukraine)



At least one American was among the almost 300 killed, he said, a revelation that raises the stakes in a pivotal incident in deteriorating relations between Russia and the West.


Photos: Malaysia Airlines passenger jet brought down in Ukraine


Related: Obama says one American was aboard downed plane in Ukraine


Related: Indiana University doctoral student among Malaysia Air dead


Calling it "an outrage of unspeakable proportions", Obama stopped short of directly blaming Russia for the incident but warned that he was prepared to tighten economic sanctions. He echoed international calls for a rapid and credible investigation and ruling out U.S. military intervention.


But, noting the global impact of the crash, with victims from 11 countries across four continents, he said the stakes were high for Europe, a clear call for it to follow the more robust sanctions on Russia already imposed by Washington.


Russia, whom Obama said was letting the rebels bring in weapons, has expressed anger at implications it was to blame, saying people should not prejudge the outcome of the inquiry.
Oh, so now he's "outraged"...

Send that man to acting school. He needs a lot of work to convince anyone of anything.

[sellersm]

"Flight 17: The 21st Century Lusitania?", "push us toward WW3", Ukraine is a key player/place on the world's stage, New Silk Road, etc... Lots of reasons this could've happened. Will we ever get the truth? Not from the existing system, no.

I tend to agree with Doug Hagmann's view here: http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/10912#more-10912

[O2HeN2]

Everyone appears to think this is some unprecedented event. For those of you not born before, say 1970, First world countries can shoot down commercial aircraft with almost 300 civilians too... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

O2

[Bailey Guns]

No...not "everyone" thinks this is unprecedented:


Ever hear of KAL 007?


Not the first time this has happened in Ukraine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

First denial, then admission


Intercepted phone calls pretty much prove this was done by Russian separatists. My guess would be they got the technology for something like this from the Russian government. There will be all sorts of bitching and posturing and blame passing and then it will be over and nothing will come of it. Isn't the first time it's happened, won't be the last. Sadly.

[Ridge]

I don't think anyone is acting like it's unprecedented. A lot of people are just angry that it happened, and that those apparently responsible aren't showing any sorrow over it.

[BushMasterBoy]

If you see missiles launched from silos in Northern Colorado, it is probably the end of this forum.

[Ridge]

If you see missiles launched from silos in Northern Colorado, it is probably the end of this forum.

Eh, the last post would be blaming Obama for not doing enough.

[PSS]

Eh, the last post would be blaming Obama for not doing enough.

Nice to know you think he's doing such a great job.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Eh, the last post would be blaming Obama for not doing enough.
... and it would probably be right ...

[hurley842002]

Nice to know you think he's doing such a great job.

Where have you been? Everyone knows Ridge is all over Obama's junk....

[crays]

If you see missiles launched from silos in Northern Colorado, it is probably the end of this forum.


Eh, the last post would be blaming Obama for not doing enough.

Where did that even come from?

[theGinsue]

WTF is Malaysian Airlines doing flying over an active combat zone?
We wouldn't want a little thing like some trivial country's civil war/war with an encroaching super power to disturb anyones vacation, now would we? Think about it, it's like a Disney ride from 33k ft..."If you look out the windows to the left you'll see 2 countries locked in fierce combat. And if you look out of the windows to the right you'll see the 7 Dwarfs working in their mine..."

Not til Obama blames Bush then apologizes
FIFY

[Ronin13]

There are reports now that among the dead on the plane are some 108 experts in HIV/AIDS research that were en route to a convention in Malaysia. Not putting on any tin foil yet, but that is kinda odd...

[drew890]

There are reports now that among the dead on the plane are some 108 experts in HIV/AIDS research that were en route to a convention in Malaysia. Not putting on any tin foil yet, but that is kinda odd...
Not trying to pick an argument or anything, but what is odd about a bunch of European medical researchers traveling together to an international medical convention?

[theGinsue]

For the record, it's critical for at least one of the passengers to have been an American (I'm sorry, how many U.S. Citizens were officially on this plane?). This gives the U.S. a leg to stand on when we insist in being involved in the investigation.

I heard the AIDS/HIV thing yesterday. Interesting. LOTS of knowledge & experience lost.

[crays]

Not trying to pick an argument or anything, but what is odd about a bunch of European medical researchers traveling together to an international medical convention?

Maybe the fact that the commercial airliner that they were travelling on was blown out of the sky with a deliberate, targeted missile strike?

Could very well be random happenstance, bizarre coincedence, or pure bad luck, but who knows. Human nature is to analyze and find reason (real or imagined). [Dunno]

[BushMasterBoy]

Yeah all the worlds top virologists killed in one fell swoop. Now lets sit back and embrace the Zombie Apocalypse!

[Ridge]

Russia's taking their anti-gay crusade to the next level, it seems...

[Bailey Guns]

Looking more and more like Russia is behind all this. It appears a former/retired Russian commander has been in Ukraine organizing the separatist movement and may have been involved in the shoot down.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/19/western-officials-believe-russian-commander-linked-to-missile-strike-on/

[SRG720]

The only ones behind all 'this' is the puppet govt in Kiev and their neocon backers in Washington. Nearly 600+ civilians (ukrainian citizens) already killed by US backed Kiev govt in east Ukraine and the media is silent(???). But an international flight goes down and the media machine cranks into high gear. Boo hoo hoo big bad Russia and it's facebook operatives are being made the bad guys.. again

Gimme a break, there arent boots big enough to wade through shit this deep

[Bailey Guns]

Obviously a Russian apologist. You go, comrade.

So since you apparently know far more than the rest of us idiots, how about enlightening us to what REALLY happened?

[BushMasterBoy]

Lemme guess, Russian emigre?

[SRG720]

Yeah and youre someone that gets his news from foxnews.. Way to go dude.

Destroyed Ukrainian battery near Krasnodon(like the many used to kill their own citizens in towns across east ukraine)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSmHr7scA8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSmHr7scA8)

skip tp 0:53 to see who's providing the meals for their little adventure

[SRG720]

boo hoo russian apologist. Can someone please tell me why the US gov is involved in all this. Right on russias doorstep? Hmmm?

[SRG720]

Yeah the same type of news sources that used pics of road warrior Cossacks to 'prove' there were rzn special forces in East Ukraine back 2 months ago.

[Gman]

The only ones behind all 'this' is the puppet govt in Kiev and their neocon backers in Washington.
Yo, SRG720, so what do the jews have to do with this?

[Ridge]

boo hoo russian apologist. Can someone please tell me why the US gov is involved in all this. Right on russias doorstep? Hmmm?

Aside from economic sanctions, how has the US gotten involved in this at all?

[SRG720]

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

How convenient.. Mccain doing his rounds with his anti-Russian minions now in power in Kiev

[SRG720]

Yo Ridge, maybe you know why CIA director Brennan was in Kiev?

[SRG720]

Gman, I said nothing about jews at all. Oleh Tyahnybok is a major anti-semite OTOH.

[Gman]

You said "neocon", which is often used to mean "jew".

[Ridge]

Yo Ridge, maybe you know why CIA director Brennan was in Kiev?

You have an amazing ability to type with your head so far up your own ass.

[SRG720]

Yeah? And you post youtube clips you found online and proclaim it to be the actual factual, so who's got their head up their ass?

[SRG720]

For the record, as far as MH17 is concerned, im not placing blame on anyone until the investigation is complete. It's possible the rebels did it but it's also possible the Ukro military did it. 298 completely meaningless deaths regardless on top of the many hundreds of others already killed by 'this'

Here, my head is so far up my ass:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/john-brennan-ukraine_n_5147869.html

[ChunkyMonkey]

Yeah and youre someone that gets his news from foxnews.. Way to go dude.

Destroyed Ukrainian battery near Krasnodon(like the many used to kill their own citizens in towns across east ukraine)

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSmHr7scA8)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSmHr7scA8

skip tp 0:53 to see who's providing the meals for their little adventure

Oh come on... one can say you only watch RT news too then?

It's well known that the Ukrainian requested for many essential items from the US and they were provided. Putin is still denying that Russia is arming the rebels with weaponary. Plenty of examples of those out in news outlet.
I am curious.. do you not believe that the rebels' grads, tanks, heavy anti aircraft units come from the Russia?

Do you not believe the rebels themselves claimed that they shot down AN26 (mistaken the Malaysian flight)?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian-ukrainian-rebel-leader-claims-shoot-down-of-malaysia-airlines-jet/

http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-crash-ukraine-did-separatists-claim-responsibility-crash-they-knew-it-was-civilian-1631924

[Ridge]

For the record, as far as MH17 is concerned, im not placing blame on anyone until the investigation is complete. It's possible the rebels did it but it's also possible the Ukro military did it. 298 completely meaningless deaths regardless on top of the many hundreds of others already killed by 'this'

Here, my head is so far up my ass:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/john-brennan-ukraine_n_5147869.html

Yeah, why the hell would the head of an intelligence agency visit an area in the midst of a civil war in which the rebels are possibly being outfitted/supported by another country??

[SRG720]

I mean if we follow the chain of events these last 6 months.. all these people would still be alive had there not been a revolution in Ukraine. If this is where we are now.. where is all this headed????

[BushMasterBoy]

Deportation of you by DHS?

[sniper7]

I mean if we follow the chain of events these last 6 months.. all these people would still be alive had there not been a revolution in Ukraine. If this is where we are now.. where is all this headed????


I dont know but there are some great and funny cat videos on YouTube. Excuse me, I'm back to see what's going on with all 500 of my friends on Facebook.

[Gman]

What's a Facebook?

[SRG720]

Yeah, why the hell would the head of an intelligence agency visit an area in the midst of a civil war in which the rebels are possibly being outfitted/supported by another country??

Oh im sure Brennan was there just for coffee and chicken Kiev ridge. Except that the active phase of the so called 'ATO' (anti-terrorist operation) began AFTER his visit..

[SRG720]

Deportation of you by DHS?

No I cant leave yet, i have my orders from Moscow!

[SRG720]

He who controls the media controls everything. Controlling the media is apparently enough to overthrow governments on a whim and cause revolutions

[Mazin]

Ok the direct insults will stop now. The next direct insult will get the op a 30 day vacation. Keep the discussion reasonable and on topic or it will be closed.

[Bailey Guns]

For the record, as far as MH17 is concerned, im not placing blame on anyone until the investigation is complete. It's possible the rebels did it but it's also possible the Ukro military did it. 298 completely meaningless deaths regardless on top of the many hundreds of others already killed by 'this'

Here, my head is so far up my ass:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/14/john-brennan-ukraine_n_5147869.html

Seriously? You have a stiffy for people who use Fox News as a source and you come up with something from HuffPo? That'll do wonders for your cred.

[SRG720]

Well, if foxnews claims 'Strelkov' has a facebook, twitter etc as factual info without verifying it then yeah I have to call foxnews into question

I mean because we all know that media sources never make mistakes or misreport information, right??

Here, from WSJ:

http://stream.wsj.com/story/deadly-clashes-in-ukraine/SS-2-457850/SS-2-507805/

[BushMasterBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2JUvZP5cfA

[SRG720]

And what are we seeing here?

[SRG720]

Look at all these SAM systems that Ukraine DOESNT have:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=btdg8e0NfWk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwghTVUtYbo

[SRG720]

So what we see is an unidentified SAM system transported down the road.. and????

[SRG720]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35WSyEpPX0s

'...in the most stringent fashion and give ukrainians real weapons to defend themselves.."

aka 298 dead in an instant but lets kill another 3-4 billion by potentially starting a nuclear war!!!

[jerrymrc]

And that is enough.