View Full Version : Eow feedback discussion
Birddog1911
05-27-2009, 10:47
Said he would buy my handgun, I was even willing to drive 40 miles to meet him. Again, said he would take it. The he decided he didn't like my insisting on a bill of sale for my protection.
Said he would buy my handgun, I was even willing to drive 40 miles to meet him. Again, said he would take it. The he decided he didn't like my insisting on a bill of sale for my protection.
I gotta ask if you included this in your ad? I have been pissed at people who pulled this on me before. no mention until I drive to meet the guy and he pulls out a piece of paper. lucky for him it was too good of a deal for me to pass up. If it hadn't been I would have stopped the deal right there.
I still let him know about it.
Since it isn't required, most people don't want it.
I suggest you change the ad and let people know what you are expecting.
Birddog1911
05-27-2009, 11:10
Sniper, it isn't in my add, but I told him in a pm. He didn't bitch about it until I listed him as the buyer in the add, and got mad about that. I thought I was doing the guy a good one, "hey, look at the good guy who bought my gear". So he says I'm requiring too much "paperwork" and backs out.
Perhaps I should list in my thread I want a bill of sale. But it is NOT that uncommon a practice, and I'm just covering my own ass.
There is a huge thread about this. You're not really covering anything by having a bill of sale. You're only narrowing your customer base and opening yourself up to lawsuits in my opinion.
Birddog1911
05-27-2009, 11:18
What possible lawsuits? How is it not protecting me by having a bill of sale saying so-and-so purchased my firearm? He still said he would take it, and then backed out. That is the bottom line here.
I know you are upset about him backing out, I don't blame you for that, but I don't blame him either.
The more paper work you make people fill out, the more you make yourself look like a business. The more you look like a business, the better chance you have of getting sued by some one if they hurt themselves.
It sounds far fetched, I know, but it is something to consider.
A bill of sale isn't that much paper work either, but once people start wanting to have copies of driver's licenses and stuff for their "records," then they start looking like a business. It's a thin line when paper work is involved.
copied this thread here from the feedback forum.
I should just delete the whole thing, but you whiney babies might cry about that.
Feedback forum is just that, feedback.
come here to GD if you want to piss and moan about stuff.
check the Terms and Conditions thread (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11113) if you have issues with what I've done.
I know you are upset about him backing out, I don't blame you for that, but I don't blame him either.
The more paper work you make people fill out, the more you make yourself look like a business. The more you look like a business, the better chance you have of getting sued by some one if they hurt themselves.
It sounds far fetched, I know, but it is something to consider.
A bill of sale isn't that much paper work either, but once people start wanting to have copies of driver's licenses and stuff for their "records," then they start looking like a business. It's a thin line when paper work is involved.
100% agree.
AK545Man
05-27-2009, 15:55
Dr_Fwd I didn't know! lol
You should've said something. [Beer]
Dr_Fwd I didn't know! lol
You should've said something. [Beer]
You see, I can't tell people "you do that/you do this". [Weight]
mightymouse
05-27-2009, 16:01
If what your selling is a good deal, then I'm sure another buyer will step right up. Regardless, these sorts of threads cause me to mentally put the seller into the 'god what a whiner' list and mentally blacklist them from future deals.
Just something to masticate on.
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 16:42
I always make a copy of someone's licence when I sell a gun privatley. Just so I can show the ATF should they ever show up at my house with gun trace data.
Anyone who has a problem with it can fuck themselves. If you've got nothing to hide, then why would that be the back out factor?
Do you also make a copy of your license and give it to the buyer?
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 16:47
Why the hell should I do that? I'm selling the gun, not buying it. I agree with Birddog, it's for my own protection.
I DO give them a bill of sale, stating who they bought it from and for how much. Bottom line, asking for a licence or other form of in state residency ID, is the law. No ID, NO GUN. Period.
And for what it's worth, no person I've ever sold to has even has so much of a smidgen of a problem with me copying their licence.
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 16:56
Ok, thought about it. Sure, if wanted my licence, why the hell not, I mean, it doens't have my SSN on it, and alot of times the buyers come to my house, so they already know where I live.
Wouldn't really be giving out any info, other than what they already know.
That's because people who have a problem with it, won't buy from you. Oh how I'd love to sell a crime gun to a guy, then if the police come sniffing around, conveniently have a copy of his driver's license to send them on their way to him; wouldn't that be nice.
Why should your buyer give you a copy of their license just because they are buying the gun? Do you require a copy of the license when selling a bicycle? The state does NOT require that you keep private information of a buyer, only that you verify the age. All that takes is a look at the license.
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 17:00
ANd if I memorize the info and write it down later?
Last time I checked, you couldn't put bullets in a bike.
And I know that the state doesn't require me to keep the info of a buyer. I DO.
Pancho Villa
05-27-2009, 17:17
I don't really have a problem with it. Guy is the owner of the gun, after all, he can set what terms he wants for its sale.
It may cover your ass. I don't really care. I don't like having guns "traceable" to me, on principle; I don't like our system of not-really-but-sorta gun registration. So I get them privately when I can. I won't ask for or participate in a transaction where someone wants my liscense.
Still, if the ATF ever came to me about a gun used in a crime, the story will be the simple truth: "Sorry dudes, sold that one privately some time ago."
Still, if the ATF ever came to me about a gun used in a crime, the story will be the simple truth: "Sorry dudes, sold that one privately some time ago."
That's the law. It's "still" legal to sell a firearm as a person to person transaction as long as you know that the person is of age, can legally own a firearm to the best of your knowledge, and is not intending to use the firearm in any illegal activities.
From what I was told by an attorney some time ago, a bill of sale written or typed on a piece of paper is just that. A piece of paper with NO legal precedence.
Bottom line, asking for a licence or other form of in state residency ID, is the law. No ID, NO GUN. Period.
Why do you bring up the law, if the law doesn't support your actions? It is your decision to make a copy of a license or not, no one can take that away from you, but don't use the law as your reference if the law doesn't say that you have to.
There are certain things that I require from my customers that are not based on the law, but prior experiences. I will explain to people that our company policy is set this way because we have been burned before, and I don't want the customer to feel like I don't trust them. Most people don't feel slighted by our company policy, because I tell them that we've been taken advantage of before, and they understand because they work in the same industry and know what people are capable of.
If you asked for a copy of my license, and I agreed contingent on me getting a copy of your license, what does that say about you as a seller if you refuse?
AK545Man
05-27-2009, 17:30
Like the guy said earlier, if that's the way the seller wants to do it then that's his prerogative. Just like the one I sold. If it bothered him then he would've said something about it. If you sell and you don't want to, don't. If you sell and you want to, state it. And they buyer will either buy it or not.
I have bought stuff from a friend and he still has a copy of my license. Doesn't bother me. I'm not planning on robbing banks or shooting presidents so I'm not worried about it.
Anyways, keep shooting!!! [M2]
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 18:05
Why do you bring up the law, if the law doesn't support your actions? It is your decision to make a copy of a license or not, no one can take that away from you, but don't use the law as your reference if the law doesn't say that you have to.
There are certain things that I require from my customers that are not based on the law, but prior experiences. I will explain to people that our company policy is set this way because we have been burned before, and I don't want the customer to feel like I don't trust them. Most people don't feel slighted by our company policy, because I tell them that we've been taken advantage of before, and they understand because they work in the same industry and know what people are capable of.
If you asked for a copy of my license, and I agreed contingent on me getting a copy of your license, what does that say about you as a seller if you refuse?
Like I said, I wouldn't refuse that, if you really wanted it.
Was there clear and unambiguous communication between the buyer and seller regarding the bill of sale? I can't tell from the first couple posts.
Some folks just want to glance at a DL or CCW to see if the person is a state resident, that's pretty harmless. Others want all the details, which always results in an enthusiastic multi-page discussion.
GunTroll
05-27-2009, 18:07
I'd laugh and leave. YOU AIN'T GETTIN SHIT FROM ME! Unless its witnessed and signed and a LEGAL contract it is as worthless as TP. Second thought I like my TP.
Pancho Villa
05-27-2009, 18:08
I'd laugh and leave. YOU AIN'T GETTIN SHIT FROM ME! Unless its witnessed and signed and a LEGAL contract it is as worthless as TP. Second thought I like my TP.
There is that as well. Unless its noterized it really doesn't have any bearing in court.
Maybe I would consent to giving a copy of my DL and a bill of sale - on the condition that the seller make it not be a total waste of time and pay for a notary to witness the transaction. Out of his own dime, of course.
Like I said, I wouldn't refuse that, if you really wanted it.
I've spent some time thinking about this, and if the ONLY requirement was a photo copy of my driver's license, it was a good deal, and the seller agreed to give me a copy of their DL, then I think I'd be okay with it as well.
It is true that a bill of sale doesn't mean anything though. I can sell you a car and you can turn around and kill someone with the car. The existence of a bill of sale isn't going to prove who done it though.
Heck, in fact, if all guns get banned, I think I'll print up a bill of sale for each gun and just have a different friend sign each one. That way no one will ever suspect me of still having any guns. ;)
I think the going rate for a notary is like $5 right?
AK545Man
05-27-2009, 18:15
Heck, in fact, if all guns get banned, I think I'll print up a bill of sale for each gun and just have a different friend sign each one. That way no one will ever suspect me of still having any guns. ;)
Nice.
There is that as well. Unless its noterized it really doesn't have any bearing in court.
Maybe I would consent to giving a copy of my DL and a bill of sale - on the condition that the seller make it not be a total waste of time and pay for a notary to witness the transaction. Out of his own dime, of course.
I was also told that it being notarized does not make it a legal document either. Can it hurt to have a 3rd party witness. No. But if your going to go through that kind of hassle then you might as well take your ass to an FFL or retail shop. [Neene2]
I always make a copy of someone's licence when I sell a gun privatley. Just so I can show the ATF should they ever show up at my house with gun trace data.
Anyone who has a problem with it can fuck themselves. If you've got nothing to hide, then why would that be the back out factor?
Because we should have to worry about it in the first place. Its not like you are meeting up with a gang member with a flag out his back pocket looking over his shoulder being sketchy.
The law says you don't need it. You make yourself look like a gun dealer by keeping records. Say you bought a stripped lower 6 months ago for $100, you see it and get a bill of sale showing you sold it for $150. ATF comes to you, says this gun was used in a crime, we realize it was sold, but you sold it at a profit which is dealing without a license. You even have the paperwork to prove it. their case is easy, you pay the fines, possibly do some jail time over it and never get to own firearms again.
On the other hand, no paperwork, say you sold it for what you bought it for, there was no proof of profit, you needed the money for rent..etc and there is nothing to be used against you.
AK545Man
05-27-2009, 18:32
Its not like you are meeting up with a gang member with a flag out his back pocket looking over his shoulder being sketchy.
"Come on cuz! Let me get that 9 milli. Hurry up."
I was also told that it being notarized does not make it a legal document either. Can it hurt to have a 3rd party witness. No. But if your going to go through that kind of hassle then you might as well take your ass to an FFL or retail shop. [Neene2]
trust has to be notarized to be a legal document.
If people are that worried about a bill of sale, why don't you just take the guy to an FFL, have him pay the fee and he can do a background check.
the whole point of a FTF transaction is for it to be simple. no paperwork, no FFL, no CBI, no .gov bullshit, no liberals telling you what to do.
it should be the same as selling a bicycle or a car.
If the guy gives you a weird feeling then don't sell it to him but the law only says legal age and resident and that you do not know him to be a felon. if he is and gets caught with possession, then he will get nailed for it.
show me a story where they have come back to a previous gun owner for selling a gun from his personal collection that was later used in a crime that came down on the previous owner.
GunTroll
05-27-2009, 18:40
Sniper7....I don't know about the profit thing working against you. Thats just the market and you can't get screwed because of it. Collector guns, antiques etc. go up with age. Not a crime to make a profit. Just smart! I would however think they would get you if you looked to be in business like this without the ever powerful FFL.
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 20:37
But the point I was trying to get across is that law does require you be a state resident. You have to at least SHOW your id. Or a utility bill, etc..
I mean, if someone refused, I guess I would still sell to them, if I was getting a good vibe. Just the same as well, even if someone offered to show me ID, if I got a bad vibe from them, I'd go through an FFL.
But the point I was trying to get across is that law does require you be a state resident. You have to at least SHOW your id. Or a utility bill, etc..
I mean, if someone refused, I guess I would still sell to them, if I was getting a good vibe. Just the same as well, even if someone offered to show me ID, if I got a bad vibe from them, I'd go through an FFL.
exactly! it requires you to show you are a resident. you could even look at the guys license plate and see it has colorado tags or have him flash is CO ID. nobody would blink an eye about it since they show their idea all the time. but when you write the persons info down, not required by law.
So apply that. If it isn't required why do you feel you have to go above and beyond.
Do you stop at a stop sign, wait 3 seconds and then decide to wait a couple more just because you feel like you should go above and beyond to protect yourself? NOPE.
Do you fill out a form 4473 at the FFL, then mail them a copy of your drivers license so they can have that on file as well just because you want them to know you really are the one buying the gun? NOPE.
are you preparing yourself for what Brady wants? are you trying to enact their wishes? Then why are you doing it? it is not required by law, people hate the paperwork already out there because there shouldn't be ANY paperwork to begin with.
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not get. people say it all the time, then they do not live by it, and then accept the new laws without blinking and eye and wanting to do more and more. why?
think about that.
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 21:37
Think about this: I just want some sort of record of who I sold a FIREARM to. Not a bike, car, knife, boat or tools. A fucking GUN. I don't want MY ass on the line when cops show up at my door telling me that they found MY GUN at a homicide scene.
All I need to do is walk down to my filing cabinet, and say "Here you go, here's the guy I sold it to" I want to help law enforcement, not hinder them. It goes a long way in cooperating with them. If all they have to go on is "I sold it to some guy from Thronton 3 years ago" Then it's not going to help with the invesitgation very much is it?
What part of that do you not understand? Do you guys hate or distrust law enforcement?
ryanek9freak
05-27-2009, 21:39
ANd for the last god damn time, I know it's not required by law.
and if the car you sold was used in a drug running scheme, or a hit and run accident.
what if the gun has been sold by the guy you sold it to. What happens if they don't care you sold the gun and find you have no alibi and you admitted to owning the gun, say you forged the paperwork and come down on you then.
the piece of paper you hand to them is not a legal document.
If you are that worried about selling a gunto the guy, why would you sell it to him. If you are soo concerned about the person and you want to sell it, why didn't you go through an FFL and have a background check done on him. Did you not realize he was mentally unstable when you sold it to him. Did you check his ID, did you find out what he was going to use the gun for and why he wanted it?
All of those are questions the LEO can ask you and still come down on you for selling the guy a gun. You COULD get nailed for selling to a felon. now your piece of paper really means nothing.
If you are that worried where you want a bill of sale, go to an FFL or don't sell the gun.
and you said you don't want your ass on the line when the cops show up. it already is on the line by you selling the gun to the guy. bill of sale or not. it may prove you didn't do that particular crime, but they might get you for selling to someone who wasn't legally allowed to own a gun. then they will really dig into your personal life.
bill of sale is worthless. go to an FFL if you want paperwork.
ANd for the last god damn time, I know it's not required by law.
Hey Ryan.... Does the law require a DL or copy of said DL?
J/K [Poke]
:D
theGinsue
05-27-2009, 22:52
Well this topic is the proverbial "beating a dead horse with a stick". We've discussed this same topic on this site many times and in the end fellings are hurt because of someones comments but no one has changed their position.
As I see it there are essentially 3 schools of thought on the issue:
School 1. Those who want some form of documentation (Bill of Sale, copy of purchasers DL, etc.).
These folks want this because they feel it offers them some form of protection should the firearm get traced back to them by LEO (In this reference I use this as an encompassing term for local LE, County, State, and Feds).
School 2. Those who do not want any form of documentation of the transaction. These folks don't have any intention of using the firearm for illegal activity, but don't want a paper trail for Big Brother to follow. These folks also say that since it isnt required by law it isn't needed and that it carries no legal weight. There are also those in this group who feel it is an imposition against the 2nd Amendment and prefer FTF sales BECAUSE paperwork isn't required. Then there are those in this group who feel that any form of documentation can be used against, not for, you later.
School 3. These folks don't care either way. You typically do not hear from anyone in these discussions who belong to this school as the conversations get very polarized and the "don't cares" want to stay out of the middle of it.
Again, I have never seen any of these discussions move someone from one school of thought to the other. As you can imagine, I belong to one of these schools. I'll let you determine which one by the way I post a firearm for sale/trade on this site (yeah, like I'd have ever sold one of my guns if I hadn't lost them in that tragic boating accident) and from the items I express an interest in that someone else is selling/trading.
This post was sort of a "green tea moment" to relax this thread a bit. I just hope that, when the dust settles, everyone still gets along and we can sing Kumbaya whilst holding hands around the campfire. (HOLY CRAP that sounds like something a liberal would say...I'll consider editing it later.) [Bang]
It's good to understand folks reasoning for their positions, whether we agree with them or not. As long as everyone, seller and buyer alike, make their intentions known up front then no one should have an issue with the other persons position - it's just how they feel and they won't change.
In the end, the seller is not compelled to sell their wares to anyone and can cancel a pending sale at any time until they receive money for the item(s).... and a potential buyer is not compelled to go through with a purchase until the point that they take possession of an item, or it is shipped out to them. With that said, if either the buyer or seller went out of their way to make the transaction then you'd be wise to compensate them for their time, gas, and any other expenses.
Now, where the heck has EOW been through this entire thread? Perhaps he's playing it smart and just staying out of this conversation as I probably should have done. Then again, it's been a long time since anyone ever accused me of being smart! I'm hungry. I think I'll go make myself a sam-ich.
will you hold my left hand Ginsue? [Flower] Kumbaya!!!!
theGinsue
05-27-2009, 23:38
Aw, shucks sniper... I thought you'd never ask <big wink>
oh, I'm sorry, did I interrupt something here? [LOL]
ChunkyMonkey
05-28-2009, 00:48
I am just sorry. eew!!! as in yucky that is.. not as in mispelled eow. Wait what was the topic of the thread again?
AK545Man
05-28-2009, 01:31
I know I distrust law enforcement. I worked for DHS for two years. Anyone who thinks I'm crazy or unpatriotic can die for all I care. Not fuck off, but seriously die. I know what I know and I've seen what I've seen while working for Uncle Scam. They can put what they want on you. The whole purpose of reporting shit on my family earlier was to see where peoples' minds were at.
It's not to say I don't know any good law enforcement officers. There's plenty. But you would be surprised what can save your ass in a (maritime) court.
And yes if you ask me to I will give you instances. Not officially cited of course. That would be anti-oath. [Coffee]
ryanek9freak
05-28-2009, 05:46
and you said you don't want your ass on the line when the cops show up. it already is on the line by you selling the gun to the guy. bill of sale or not. it may prove you didn't do that particular crime, but they might get you for selling to someone who wasn't legally allowed to own a gun. then they will really dig into your personal life.
bill of sale is worthless. go to an FFL if you want paperwork.
I agree with you Sniper 100%. Even if I could show the cops who bought it from me, there's no guarantee that that person was the one who committed said crime. I mean shit, the gun could have exchanged hands 50 more times. I just want to get the cops out of my house as fast as possible, that's all.
I'm currently in the process of obtaining my FFL, a i've just finished gunsmithing school, and plan to build custom weapons.
Maybe I'm just practicing. lol.
Let's change this up a little bit. What if you are selling a gun that you bought face to face with no paper work? How likely is it that the gun will be traced to you in the first place?
Also, I'm curious about this whole "find my old gun at a crime scene" thought process. I haven't registered any of my guns. If I leave one of my guns on a park bench, how easy is it for them to track me down as the owner? I assume they pull the numbers and see where the manufacturer sent it, then go there and see who the dealer sold the gun to? Is that about how it works?
Also, they can find 10 of my guns at a crime scene, but that doesn't mean they'll have a shred of evidence that I did anything.
Oh yes, since someone brought up looking like an FFL, the whole entire Feedback forum lends itself to making everyone mentioned in it look like a dealer. Why do you care about your reputation for selling guns if you aren't doing it to make money? If you sell a car once every ten years and a deal goes south, it's no skin off your back, because you aren't selling cars every other week. Just something to think about.
Seller has a rights to ask to see or sign stuff. There are nothing wrong with it.
You can ask me to provide strain of DNA sample, drug test, proof of citizenship/birth certificate, Green Card, CO ID, CCW ID, business card, resume, school transcript incl GPA, etc. "If" someone is selling an NIB $10,000 firearm for $100, fine.. I "might" do all that.
If someone is selling $600 firearm for $550, probably would not jump all the hoops that seller requires.
Just that it wont really protect you from anything. I really don't care about doing/not doing the bill of sale.
Worst case, if i do need their info, I already have tons of PM/email showing that I Bought/Sold the firearm. It is my/their firearm now.
AK545Man
05-29-2009, 09:31
I would like to apologize for my crazy rant the other night (a few posts up). I was angry about a lot of stuff and if came off wrong. I hope no one was offended.
And as always, keep shooting! [Beer]
Birddog1911
05-29-2009, 14:23
Was there clear and unambiguous communication between the buyer and seller regarding the bill of sale? I can't tell from the first couple posts.
Some folks just want to glance at a DL or CCW to see if the person is a state resident, that's pretty harmless. Others want all the details, which always results in an enthusiastic multi-page discussion.
I just found this here in the GD. Had no idea it would become such a bitch fest. Yes, I told the buyer in a pm that I required a bill of sale. It took two other pms for him to bitch about it and say he didn't want to buy it then.
Birddog1911
05-29-2009, 14:31
And for the record, I tried to delete this thread before it was moved to the GD. In afterthought I thought it best to just let this end without others seeing how mad I was about the deal. Perhaps EOW is a good guy, but I didn't like the way the sale went with me or being electronically bitched out for listing him as the buyer in the thread. Try to do the guy a good one, and I get pissed on.
I just found this here in the GD. Had no idea it would become such a bitch fest. Yes, I told the buyer in a pm that I required a bill of sale. It took two other pms for him to bitch about it and say he didn't want to buy it then.
You act like he backed out ftf after knowing about the paperwork. I cant count how many deals fell through on things I've tried to sell, no big deal just repost and get over it. I had a pretty smooth deal with eow a few months back, and maybe he found what he was looking for without the bs paperwork I probably would have backed out as well because as a buyer going after the bigger better deal is an option we have. Getting ripped off or asked to drive out for an hour only to be stood up would be a good reason for a thread like this, but telling you he didnt want it after all? c'mon.
Birddog1911
05-30-2009, 04:31
Graves, you fail to understand that his backing out was two fold. I told him in my very first reply that I required a bill of sale. You also failed to read the last post where I said that perhaps I had over reacted slightly, and tried to delete the bad feedback. But when you make a deal, say you will take it, and then back out; that calls for negative feedback. Read the rules; don't make an offer if your not going to stand by it, plain and bloody simple that anyone should understand it.
You also want to be careful saying you did business with him; that is what hacked him off and caused him break the deal.
You act like he backed out ftf after knowing about the paperwork. I cant count how many deals fell through on things I've tried to sell, no big deal just repost and get over it. I had a pretty smooth deal with eow a few months back, and maybe he found what he was looking for without the bs paperwork I probably would have backed out as well because as a buyer going after the bigger better deal is an option we have. Getting ripped off or asked to drive out for an hour only to be stood up would be a good reason for a thread like this, but telling you he didnt want it after all? c'mon.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.