Carte blanche shorty build

[mcantar18c]

I'm building a 11.5-12.5" pistol+brace (to be SBR'd at a later date). I can get pretty much any parts for it that I want, but the cheaper I make it the more cash I get on top of it.
I have a week or 2 to put together this parts list until my buddy gets the back pay from Uncle Sam to fund it, so a small backorder time on a part isn't an issue. I'm looking for suggestions on parts... which to choose and where to find... and I really just need a sounding board for my thoughts.
Prefer 12" even, but a half inch in either direction is acceptable. I know I want a KX3/KX5, a BCM medium charging handle, and obviously the Sig brace. I definitely want a free float keymod handguard, and I want it to be longer than the barrel but not more than 1", preferably less, but that means it has to have an inner diameter large enough to accommodate the KX3/most suppressors. I'd also like the rail to have keymod holes on all 7 sides like BCM's, not just 3, but that's not as important as proper length. I'd strongly prefer a hammer forged barrel, although I can't find any in stock other than an 11.5" on BCM. Blem/demo uppers and lowers are preferable but nobody seems to have any in stock. I really like that HSP light with the slanted back, and I'd like a hand stop that takes up as little space in front as possible (i.e. not Noveske's). I'm also going back and forth between a T1 micro and a dual-illuminated RMR, both have their qualities.

[mcantar18c]

So I've narrowed it down to 3 barrels...

-Daniel Defense 12.5", chromolly steel, CHF, 1:7 twist rate, and includes a lo-pro gas block.
-Noveske 12.5" LGPRLP, unknown barrel material, CHF, 1:7 twist rate, includes lo-pro gas block and gas tube.

-Ranier Arms 12.5", stainless, button rifling (Ratchet Rifling on a Shilen blank), 1:8 twist rate.

All are carbine length. I like what I hear about 1:8, but I've never had a problem with 1:7. I like chromolly over stainless from what I know about it from rock crawling. I'm under the impression that CHF is superior to button cut rifling, but everyone says Shilen is top notch and their ratchet rifling seems like a good idea in theory. They're all within $20 of each other, but having a gas block included is certainly a plus. Thoughts?

[sportbikeco]

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa/psa-chf-12-5-56mm-1-7-a2-profile-upper.html

PSA 12.5" CHF with bolt group $399

[Great-Kazoo]

So I've narrowed it down to 3 barrels...

-Daniel Defense 12.5", chromolly steel, CHF, 1:7 twist rate, and includes a lo-pro gas block.
-Noveske 12.5" LGPRLP, unknown barrel material, CHF, 1:7 twist rate, includes lo-pro gas block and gas tube.

-Ranier Arms 12.5", stainless, button rifling (Ratchet Rifling on a Shilen blank), 1:8 twist rate.

All are carbine length. I like what I hear about 1:8, but I've never had a problem with 1:7. I like chromolly over stainless from what I know about it from rock crawling. I'm under the impression that CHF is superior to button cut rifling, but everyone says Shilen is top notch and their ratchet rifling seems like a good idea in theory. They're all within $20 of each other, but having a gas block included is certainly a plus. Thoughts?

What kind of ammo do you plan om shooting, factory or reloads?
Depending on band for the buck i like the 1:8 Rainer unit.
We run 12.5's on our sbr's. The spouse has a LH stag DI 1:9 chrome lined with a BPtactical bbl cut & thread. Myself, i've had so many bbls on the shelf i know it's a 1:9 chrome lined running an AA piston.

[mcantar18c]

I'll be shooting mostly factory loads for the time being... whatever's cheap and available, really, and that includes the occasional box of steel case. Later on when I get a can I'll be shooting subsonic, and I'd really like to get into reloading at some point.
I'm looking for durability, long service life, etc. over best bang for my buck. If I have to drop some extra cash to get a barrel that will last 30% longer than the competition under the same conditions, that's what I'm going to do.
With that in mind... on one hand I know chromolly is incredibly strong when it comes to axle shafts and other rock crawling parts, so it makes sense that it would do well as a barrel material. On the other hand, Shilen's "ratchet rifling" claims to have an extremely long life (and their reasoning passes the logic test).

[kidicarus13]

PSA 10.5" complete upper with BCG and charging handle $390...
https://www.ar-15.co/showthread.php?t=136443

[mcantar18c]

Yeah I saw that. From everything I've read, the drop from 11.5" to 10.5" brings a significant loss in velocity and energy, and a significant increase in baffle erosion.

[Great-Kazoo]

Yeah I saw that. From everything I've read, the drop from 11.5" to 10.5" brings a significant loss in velocity and energy, and a significant increase in baffle erosion.

How far do you intent to engage targets at ? The 10.5 i had could do steel to 300. A drop of say 300fps isn't going to make much difference in the 25-300yd, on soft targets.

Issues with baffle erosion occur if you use a f/hider instead of a brake. On the 12.5 suppressed i run an AAC brake out.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608023938925002848&pid=15.1&P=0 https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607992302196228210&pid=15.1&P=0here's another one https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607986267773600698&pid=15.1&P=0

While the 18" MVP wears a f/hider

https://sp2.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608037639879131286&pid=15.1&P=0

[mcantar18c]

I'd like absolute certainty of bullet fragmentation in soft targets at 300. A buddy of mine with a 10.5" claims he keyholes at 300 with M855... are you saying this is an exception, not an example to go by?
I just discovered Simplistic Shooting Solutions' brake shield... fits around an AAC Brakeout and accomplishes the same goal as a KX3/5 when unsuppressed

[mcantar18c]

I'm gonna run whatever's cheap. If I find a sale on 62gr that's what I'm buying... If 75 is the only thing in stock I'll grab that too. Most likely 55gr is what I'll feed it most, because of cost.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm gonna run whatever's cheap. If I find a sale on 62gr that's what I'm buying... If 75 is the only thing in stock I'll grab that too. Most likely 55gr is what I'll feed it most, because of cost.

~!@#$ i relpied with my train of thought towards reloading, deleted it. Then saw you replied, my bad. While you're running factory. Keep your eyes out for say 1-2 lbs of powder, primers and bullets. there's always a single stage on CL, or gun forum for sale.

That M855 the steel core stuff, you really feel the need for steel core? While it has it's place. Depending what you read, it seems to be less effective as you get out there. Again YMMV, as i haven't seen the need to buy or shoot it.

My best performing factory round was (no longer around) 55 gr SA FMJ, shit was hot. In today's market buy the privi 55 gr
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=1650&name=Prvi+Partizan+PPU+.223%2f5.56x45+M193+55grn

[mcantar18c]

I'll keep an eye out for sure. Right now I just want to find a tank of a barrel that'll eat whatever I give it

[RonMexico]

Free BCG and one of the best keymod rails on the market; I don't think you will find sweeter deals.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-URG-11-KMR10
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-URG-12-KMR10

[mcantar18c]

That is a pretty good deal. I'll keep it in mind, but it's not quite what I'm looking for. I want the rail to overhang the barrel slightly (dumb, maybe, but I like the look) and the BCM rail won't fit a KX3 (can't find KX5s in stock anywhere).
I really need to contact SSS tomorrow and figure out the OD of that brake shield.
I did get to handle one of those BCM rails today... it definitely won't fit a can inside it, but if they measured that 13" to the ears on the side of the front and not to the top rail itself it could certainly be made to work and look good.

[mcantar18c]

Has anybody found a good km rail/can combo that fits well?
I'm also considering a 13"or so for now to just fit the KX3, and when I get a can I'll get a 15" rail that fits it (and not worry about it til then).

[sportbikeco]

Why so much work to put an expensive and heavy kx3 on there anyway?

I run a linear comp from another manufacturer on my 7.5" and it does the same thing for like 40 bucks.

[Great-Kazoo]

Why so much work to put an expensive and heavy kx3 on there anyway?

I run a linear comp from another manufacturer on my 7.5" and it does the same thing for like 40 bucks.

Some folks have their mind set, others look at all options. I'm not a fan of the KX units, but it's not my build. If you're going short, keeping it light should be a consideration. 10.5" 8lb gun defeats itself.

[mcantar18c]

It's not so much that I have my mind set on a KX specifically, just that a muzzle device that contains and directs the noise and concussion forward seems like a good idea for a short barrel. I hear good things about the KXs and I like the look of them, but I'm open to other ideas. If I can get my hands on one of those Simplistic Shooting Solutions Brake Shields I think that might be the best option... they have a YHM and an AAC version.

Also, I was a 240 gunner... an 8lb rifle is a serious improvement for me.

[Mick-Boy]

The Levang Linear comp (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/compensators/levang-linear-compensator-prod5594.aspx) will get the job done and fit under any rail out there. It's lighter and cheaper than the KX3 to boot.

The best 5.56 round going right now for putting people down is the 70gr barnes (brown tip). It works just fine out of an 8in barrel although that wouldn't be my preference. You can load it with 23gr of H4895 and a Federal GMM small rifle primer. Or you can buy it from someone like ASYM (http://store.chencustom.com/223_SOLID_DEFENSE_X_70_gr_Barnes_Copper_TSX_s/92.htm). Most other 5.56 are just going to be punching little holes so it's more important to put the holes in the right place. You might get fragmentation if you hit the right bone at the right angle. But don't plan on it, no matter what load/barrel combination you're running.

My advice would be to go with the BCM like RonMexico linked to. If you wait a bit I'm sure the BFH barreled 11.5 will be back in stock.

[mcantar18c]

That Levang is pretty well priced... I'll look more into that one.

Mick, you'd go for BCM's CHF barrel (or BFH?) for durability/longevity over the 3 I'm looking at? Also considering that they only offer it in 11.5, not 12.5?
What's your reasoning?

Has anybody heard of this company/product?...
http://www.kineti-tech.com/kineti-tech-muzzle-brake-with-sound-redirect-with-13-16-x-16-threaded-sleeve-2-piece/
They make some really gimmicky shit so I don't know if I trust their product.

[sportbikeco]

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/kies_comp_016.JPG

Here is a pic of what I run next to a levang comp. Its made by Kies , got it from joebob.

[Mick-Boy]

That Levang is pretty well priced... I'll look more into that one.

Mick, you'd go for BCM's CHF barrel (or BFH?) for durability/longevity over the 3 I'm looking at? Also considering that they only offer it in 11.5, not 12.5?
What's your reasoning?

Has anybody heard of this company/product?...
http://www.kineti-tech.com/kineti-tech-muzzle-brake-with-sound-redirect-with-13-16-x-16-threaded-sleeve-2-piece/
They make some really gimmicky shit so I don't know if I trust their product.

I like the company and the people behind it. I tend to vote with my wallet whenever there is an option. I'm know Daniel Defense and Noveske make a good product but I'm partial to BCM.

Also, since I bought my first AR I've only ever legitimately shot out two barrels. One was a basic chrome lined 14.5in (Bushy) and the other was a hammer forged 10.5in (LWRCi). In both cases the upper was past the 20k round mark before I stared seeing a notable decrease in accuracy. In the case of the LWRC, probably half of those rounds were suppressed. Either way you're probably talking about more rounds than most folks will shoot in ten years. So durability might not be as big an issue as it can be made out to be.

[mcantar18c]

I'm not so much concerned with lifespan in terms of number of rounds, but rather longevity with different types of ammo. I recall a test done by DPMS or Bushmaster (was on arfcom) where they put 10k rounds of 3 different ammo types through 3 different barrels... the steel case ammo showed a significant decrease in accuracy at the 4k mark. While I won't be shooting steel case primarily, I won't shy away from it if that's the cheapest thing on the shelf.

Mick, what are your thoughts on 11.5" vs 12.5"?

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm not so much concerned with lifespan in terms of number of rounds, but rather longevity with different types of ammo. I recall a test done by DPMS or Bushmaster (was on arfcom) where they put 10k rounds of 3 different ammo types through 3 different barrels... the steel case ammo showed a significant decrease in accuracy at the 4k mark. While I won't be shooting steel case primarily, I won't shy away from it if that's the cheapest thing on the shelf.

Mick, what are your thoughts on 11.5" vs 12.5"?

Don't know how that happened, it's the bullet not steel case through the bbl. Privi Partisan has decent bullets. The wolf, while not a consistent product, doesn't appear to have bullets of lower quality. MMM looks like i'm going to pull some apart and look at a few bullets.

[sportbikeco]

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

[mcantar18c]

There we go, that's the test I was thinking of. I'm looking for a barrel that will provide the longest service life with mixed ammunition, including some apparently very abrasive stuff.

[Great-Kazoo]

There we go, that's the test I was thinking of. I'm looking for a barrel that will provide the longest service life with mixed ammunition, including some apparently very abrasive stuff.

If you have the coin for 10-20K of ammo. BBL mfg shouldn't matter. A test was done many a year ago for some gun rag, where they shot a colt (model escapes me) until accuracy deteriorated. That was around the 10.5-11K mark, of all day shooting.
The groups opened up to like 4-5 moa at that point The team who put this on said the hardest part was loading mags, over & over, & over. Occasionally they'd let the bbl cool down. Other than that an all day shoot the bbl out test.

[mcantar18c]

I'm aware we're talking large quantities of rounds even on the low end. However there's only a $45 difference between the BCM BFH 11.5" and the Ranier Arms Shilen SS 12.5". The DD and Noveske are slightly more but come with lo-pro gas blocks. With that little of a price difference, to me it's worth the discussion.

[Great-Kazoo]

I'm aware we're talking large quantities of rounds even on the low end. However there's only a $45 difference between the BCM BFH 11.5" and the Ranier Arms Shilen SS 12.5". The DD and Noveske are slightly more but come with lo-pro gas blocks. With that little of a price difference, to me it's worth the discussion.

What will it cost you for the rainier, or BCM with gas block over the DD? Since you will be running what's available, ammo wise, buy the BCM 11.5

[mcantar18c]

What will it cost you for the rainier, or BCM with gas block over the DD? Since you will be running what's available, ammo wise, buy the BCM 11.5
From my notepad where I've been writing down all the parts I like...

BCM BFH (CHF) 11.5" 1:7 11595E (mil-spec steel) $300
+ BCM lo-pro gas block $45
=$345

Noveske CHF 12.5" 1:7 M249 barrel steel (exact material unspecified) $365 (price includes lo-pro gas block)

Daniel Defense CHF 12.5" 1:7 chromolly $290
+ BCM lo-pro gas block $45
=$335
or
$350 with DD lo-pro gas block already pinned

Ranier Arms "ratchet rifling" 12.5" 1.8 stainless Shilen blank $345
+ BCM lo-pro gas block $45
=$390 (probably not going to be what I go with)

[gta_spec]

Steel cased ammo kills barrel life because its usually loaded with bi metal projectiles. These projectiles have a thin steel wrapper around the lead that its copper plated. SEM imaging shows that the rifling usually penetrates the copper plating and the projectile travels down the barrel with steel on steel contact.

[sportbikeco]

Buy that complete PSA 12.5" for $399 shipped with bolt group. Gets you a chf fn made barrel. Add your own rail. Sell the handgaurd stuff you won't use to get back a few bucks.

[mcantar18c]

Let the spending begin!
MUR and RRA BCG are on the way...

[mcantar18c]

As she sits...

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/f2329ca73d8d3669b05603eec61569ad.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/31/55d2f6a466549601ddc1353fb701eaeb.jpg

Need a Sig brace and an optic. Flip flopping between the T1 and the H1.

[Marine24]

So what did the build sheet end up looking like? Plan to start on an AR pistol build as well once my 9mm AR pistol build is complete.