View Full Version : Why is Treason Categorically Bad?
Pancho Villa
06-04-2009, 07:24
Please take this discussion as a purely intellectual exercise. This is not meant to (nor should it be taken to) incite anyone to illegal acts, which are both wrong and futile in the context of this topic. You do not stop a juggernaught by throwing yourself in front of it.
On another topic the topic of treason came up. Is treason categorically wrong?
First, a definition:
Treason
the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
This is the particular definition that I ask be used when referring to "treason" in this thread.
Is it treason to remove a dangerous government?
It's only considered a treasonous even to the government who does not want to be over thrown. If it is the will of the "people" and not the will of the government then is it treason?
To me... no.
Treason? or a Revolutionary?
These two words can have the same meaning,,depending on where you stand.
A treasonous act is spying for a foreign country,,selling information that can be used against your own government.
A Revolutionary,,has determined his country has no intention of change for the better,and takes measures to make the changes.
There have been some traitors,that have become heroes too.
The Founding Fathers of a country called America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcVopcMPfSs&feature=related
By the way Pancho Villa,,,bad choice of names,,
http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1305-francisco-pancho-villa
only later did he see a profit in fighting,,if not just to start a clean slate.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 11:47
Man if I hear one more thing about the founding fathers I'm gonna jump off the bridge. I swear.
Man if I hear one more thing about the founding fathers I'm gonna jump off the bridge. I swear.
Do you think the Founding Fathers threatened to jump off a bridge when times got tough?
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:03
No. I just think they were horrible fucking people man.
No. I just think they were horrible fucking people man.
More posts like this and you will find yourself gone.
More posts like this and you will find yourself gone.
What the fuck?
1) His post was dripping with sarcasm.
2) He has a right to his opinion, just like everyone else. I realize that free speech doesn't apply to privately owned sites and all, but there is no better way to vet out people's opinions on stuff like this then to have someone playing the devils advocate; instead of a bunch of people having a circle jerk all the time about how much they agree with each other.
Circuits
06-04-2009, 12:23
Treason is attempting to overthrow a system of government and failing.
Successful overthrow is properly termed "revolution".
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:23
You tell me if people who are supposed to be great destroy a race damn near and then get rich off of free labor. Those are the roots. The fruit is gonna be tainted. Now that doesn't mean that America is all bad. Those times are gone and in the past. But you'll have to pardon me if I don't agree when people get all gooey-eyed over these men because of the lofty ideas that they put on paper that were never intended for anyone else.
It seems we have a trend on here of threads getting hi-jacked and going off topic. This time it's my fault.
My bad. Please continue.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:27
Thanks Sturtle.
And Circuits I agree with those definitions. I guess the next logical question would be when do you believe you have achieved victory?
After the regime has fallen or after it's replacement has been installed?
I really thought you were being sarcastic, but I guess not. You sound like a butt hurt Native. Not many other invading forces even give the natives a chance to assimilate. Ask the Azteks.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:38
Lol do I? [LOL]
That's cool. So I guess since they gave them a chance to give up what they know and become something else, it's semi-okay?
Well, I can't really get into the argument of whether it is okay. I tend to not think about it though, because it's already done and it can't be changed now. I can't think of any race of people, at any time that haven't committed some wrong or another. I guess I liken it to not buying a BMW because the holocaust occurred. If you live too much in the past, you can never move forward, which is the more important consideration in my opinion.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:49
Well, I can't really get into the argument of whether it is okay. I tend to not think about it though, because it's already done and it can't be changed now. I can't think of any race of people, at any time that haven't committed some wrong or another. I guess I liken it to not buying a BMW because the holocaust occurred. If you live too much in the past, you can never move forward, which is the more important consideration in my opinion.
I couldn't agree more. But basically I'm just tired of the glorifying of those men when they were anything but glorious in my opinion. I'm not sitting here and telling you I can't find a job because of the founding fathers or anything man. lol
What do you think about our current system vs. what we would have if we would've stayed under the king?
Never has an invading army/government NOT made the "natives" bend to their will.
Be it Mayan,Aztec ,Apache,Iroquois ,Sumerian,Roman,British,French,China,Japan,German, Spanish,Moor,,ect ect ect
All forms of Government are oppressive to somebody.
What was set forth in America in 1776 was the best there was then,
.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 12:53
Never has an invading army/government NOT made the "natives" bend to their will.
Be it Mayan,Aztec ,Apache,Iriquois,Sumerian,Roman,British,French,Spa inish,Moor,,ect ect ect
That is true. However, we're not talking about merely bending to someone's will.
I don't think about a vs situation like that, because I feel like a discussion about a "could have been" history is fruitless. I don't think that people are glorifying them in every sense of their personalities or accomplishments, but only in reference to their document. Until we find a better one out there, they will always be remembered for that, and that is totally okay. You can't take away the good that they did, just because it wasn't all good.
Usually, invading armies just kill everyone. Back in those days anyway.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 13:01
Well anyway, let's agree to disagree and get back on topic.
I think the topic was solved when what's his name pointed out the difference between treason and revolution.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 13:09
True. I guess I'm not paying attention today. lol
I think the answer lies in the truth that the winners write the history books.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 13:32
As always. Knowing that little bit makes reading their books more interesting. You get to search for things. lol
had we lost the revolution, most if not all of the founding fathers would have been hung or shot for treason.
they won, and are now celebrated as patriots.
we are on the downward slide. our government in it's current form will continue to ignore, outlaw, abridge, and encroach upon our freedoms until some brave folks akin to the founding fathers stand up and say no more.
if they win they will be patriots, if they lose they will be traitors.
the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were great men. You may not think so, and that's fine. You're free to think what you want.
In my opinion only racists, idiots, and apologists look down upon the founders of this nation.
ryanek9freak
06-04-2009, 16:47
Usually, invading armies just kill everyone. Back in those days anyway.
Exactly what we should have done in Iraq, even though we weren't invading, per se.
AK545Man
06-04-2009, 23:59
In my opinion only racists, idiots, and apologists look down upon the founders of this nation.
And y'all wonder why more people don't care. lol
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