A question or two about grip/stance

[Doc45]

If this isn't the proper place I apologize, mods please move.

In the over 45 years of shooting my own stance and grip have changed when it comes to handguns. A couple of years ago I noticed when it comes to the AR lots of the younger guys had shunned the vertical for grip on the rail and moved the support hand to virtually the end of the forend up to the front sight with the thumb pointing forward.

I've tried this style and frankly my wrist is at such an awkward an unnatural angle to actually be painful. In a confined quarters situation I find it even more difficult to use. I run my fvg at almost the very end of the rail (I have the Knights RAS on my 6920), this allows my support (left) arm to be at almost the same position as when using a two handed grip on my pistols. I feel I'm better able to clear corners, move around obstacles, get great hits on target, etc.

As for stance, I no longer stand straight on with the AR because I'm no longer wearing body armor but more at an angle and can lean into the carbine better for improved control especially during rapid fire.

Am I missing something? I'm very willing to change if it'll improve weapon control and marksmanship. Is it more useful in an open environment?

Thanks for helping this old guy out.

[HoneyBadger]

What I understand is that having your thumb over the top of the handguard allows you to pull the rifle back into your shoulder and control muzzle rise more effectively.

Disclaimer: I haven't been shooting for 45 years. [Coffee]

[Doc45]

Disclaimer: I haven't been shooting for 45 years. [Coffee]

Aw geez, another kid! LOL, thanks that makes some sense though I've never found the recoil on the AR hard to control. I'm more than willing to admit what I don't know, to try new things and to ask for advice. Without disparaging anyone using that form it seems to be more oriented to the competition world but won't use that to discount it's practical use. In many arenas ideas/actions used in competition prove their worth in the non-comp world in short order.

Thanks!

[Bailey Guns]

I've tried it...doesn't work for me and feels awkward. I do just fine the old way.

[Great-Kazoo]

Unfortunately my body doesn't respond to stances, while valid, young guns can do. Hell i put grip tape on the bathroom floor so i don't slip while taking a piss;). Just wait kids, just wait.......

[ray1970]

I've tried it...doesn't work for me and feels awkward. I do just fine the old way.

Ditto.

[Gman]

I shoot the way I learned. I'm not inclined to change based on what works for some in competition today. There's something to consistency.

ETA: If it ain't broke....

[dan512]

The proof is in the pudding. Put yourself on a shot timer and see which grip yields faster follow up shots. It may take a little practice for the new grip to stop feeling super awkward.
Your point about things working differently in competition versus real life is valid. A grip that enables you to burn things down in competition may suck to try to hold all day.

[Great-Kazoo]

The proof is in the pudding. Put yourself on a shot timer and see which grip yields faster follow up shots. It may take a little practice for the new grip to stop feeling super awkward.
Your point about things working differently in competition versus real life is valid. A grip that enables you to burn things down in competition may suck to try to hold all day.

Not everyone is shooting competitively. Not everyone is physically capable of standing, laying prone, of shooting from cover the way you or other shooters do.

[DingleBerns]

I was trained in my rifle class the original way however near the end of the class they mentioned the thumb forward method. Unless I'm prone, I use thumb forward method now because I feel I can control muzzle rise and get follow up shots off faster.

[MrPrena]

I used "mainly" this front grip even before all these carbine dvd/instructor came into the market. At that time, AR15 was ONLY made by COLT.

http://i59.tinypic.com/99gtqq.jpg

[hurley842002]

With the exception of those who said they've tried it, I'm curious as to how many nay sayers have actually tried it... I've been shooting longer than most of the range instructors at work, but one of them showed me the hand over/thumb forward stance, and I shoot surprisingly well using the stance. It is a bit awkward after shooting one way for many years, but I'd urge anyone to try it out, if it works it works, if not no harm.

[davsel]

If it works for Jerry...
http://3gunnation.com/Portals/0/EasyGalleryImages/1/654/Miculek%20Rifle.jpg

Feels odd, but I'm willing to give it a try.

[Zundfolge]

The point is to be able to transition from target to target quicker in a game where milliseconds separate winning and last place.

Whether it would be more effective in combat I don't know, but the 3-Gun guys sure seem to swear by it.

[275RLTW]

The point is to be able to transition from target to target quicker in a game where milliseconds separate winning and last place.

Whether it would be more effective in combat I don't know, but the 3-Gun guys sure seem to swear by it.

Faster target transitions requires a lot more than just off hand grip. Yes, basic physics states that having your arm out further will give you better control than if it is closer to the mag well. However that does not affect speed at all. Speed comes from efficiently using larger muscle groups to transition, ie using your thighs and hips to push your body and not just your lower back.

[Zundfolge]

Faster target transitions requires a lot more than just off hand grip.
Absolutely. But this style of grip is just one tool in a larger tool box ... and that's what the OP was asking about.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Wait, there's recoil on an AR?

[Great-Kazoo]

Wait, there's recoil on an AR?

For some it's a challenge.
I like it when introducing people to firearms. It's ALWAYS the man who says. WOW THAT HAS SOME KICK TO IT. As they're shooting one of the many 22's i bring.
Suppressed it's nothing, remove it and it's a Game Changer for some folks. BUT they'll shoot the ak's and the only comment is WOW That was fun. go figure

[Wulf202]

Two minor points.

Blading your stance also limits the ability to swivel one way.

If you perceive the need to use a rifle like an ak you will find the grip training to be detrimental

[lex137]

Try a different way or not, I think you should do what is comfortable and works for you. Sure it would be good to shave time, faster movement, ect, but if you physically can't do it cause age or body mechanics than it's not worth it. Good luck either way.

[MarkCO]

It depends...

If your ultimate goal is to deliver the most accurate shots as fast as possible, the VFG won't win. The thumb forward or over the HG will be faster. But that is not everyone's goal. Shooting is a fluid, feel, comfort endeavor which, to some degree means that each shooter adjusts their gear and stance to their goals, physique and needs. That does not mean anything goes.

When I instruct, I evaluate the student, put the timer on them and see what they are doing well, what they struggle with and then, make some suggestions to try out based on what I see them do, and what their goals are. I would rather have a confident and comfortable student who can make the hits than an uncomfortable one using the "one perfect way." If a student has a technique that will not let them meet their goals, is unsafe or will prevent them from gaining the fundamentals, sure, I will suggest they switch and put in enough time to undo and re-program suitable technique.

If you have not fired 1000 rounds or so with a "new" stance or hold, frankly you don't have enough information to make an informed choice as to whether it is better or worse. (Physical limitations aside).

[Doc45]

I've fired approx 500 rds through this different grip, I quit because of the discomfort in my wrist. I should mention that I do point my left (support hand) thumb forward along the left side of the rail while using the vertical grip. I've used the M4/AR in my work (prior careers) as well as for fun (current life) so feel pretty comfortable on my use of this platform.

I never consider my self to old to learn new tricks-that's too narrow minded for me. I see a lot of the youngsters using this method so that got me curious. I asked my older son about it, he saw a few of the high speed low drag types use it when in the open but changed when clearing buildings, working their way around corners, etc.

Thanks for all the good responses, be safe.

[trlcavscout]

I don't know about competition but the forward grip like the jerry pic is the way to go in the real world for stability and speed. I guess I never heard anyone say it felt awkward?

[Badger]

Some here will consider me a 'youngster' others and 'old fart' [Coffee] , but for what it's worth I'll describe my techniques: Regardless of position, my thumb is always forward. (I also shoot both right and left hand, right and left eye just to keep options open). Targets on average of 100m -200m I do use a 'hand forward' technique. Thumb isn't quite on top like the Jerry pic above, but hand is certainly far forward on the handguard. In CQC training, stock is collapsed, hand falls close to mag well, remote switch for illumination in place, but thumb always forward. Various other training techniques I could describe that are fun, but the point is, no matter where or which hand, the thumb forward is just my personal preference. Very content with my speed and accuracy. I've used vertical foregrips (a.k.a. broomsticks) of various kinds, I like the angled Magpul on my 6.8, but thumb forward with or without a grip is pretty routine here. Always good to try something new, but the "what works for you" mentality goes a long way for many things, this included.

Badger

[275RLTW]

I agree with the "works for you" philosophy to a point. When you stop trying to get more efficient, then you've become stagnant and will fall behind. Remember, if you're carrying a weapon for defense then you accept that somewhere out there, someone is training to kill you. If you have to face that person, don't count on luck or a complacent mindset if you want to survive.

[Zundfolge]

Just remember kids ... once upon a time they laughed at Jack Weaver.

[Badger]

If you have to face that person, don't count on luck or a complacent mindset if you want to survive.
Whole heartedly agree. I've tried many techniques, in some areas amendments to my routine have changed, other areas I've reverted back to what worked for consistency. Never afraid to try something new, and granted sometimes 'comfort' takes a back seat to maintaining speed and accuracy. If my 'target' has the ability to end me just as quickly if not quicker, I'll gladly go through some pain to keep on breathing. Fortunately continued training has transformed any would-be awkward feeling movements into muscle memory. Probably getting off topic, but great point about complacency.


Badger

[Bailey Guns]

After two surgeries to my left shoulder I can say it doesn't work for me. It's not the "thumb forward" part of it that's problem. It's extending my arm like that. I see many people shooting that way and it does seem to work for them. It doesn't work for me. Not at this stage of the game, anyway.

There are lots of legitimate reasons why someone would want to stick to the "traditional" style. Physical limitations are just one. On the other hand, there are lots of reasons someone might try or adapt new techniques. Performance is just one.

[Doc45]

Some here will consider me a 'youngster' others and 'old fart' [Coffee] , but for what it's worth I'll describe my techniques: Regardless of position, my thumb is always forward. (I also shoot both right and left hand, right and left eye just to keep options open). Targets on average of 100m -200m I do use a 'hand forward' technique. Thumb isn't quite on top like the Jerry pic above, but hand is certainly far forward on the handguard. In CQC training, stock is collapsed, hand falls close to mag well, remote switch for illumination in place, but thumb always forward. Various other training techniques I could describe that are fun, but the point is, no matter where or which hand, the thumb forward is just my personal preference. Very content with my speed and accuracy. I've used vertical foregrips (a.k.a. broomsticks) of various kinds, I like the angled Magpul on my 6.8, but thumb forward with or without a grip is pretty routine here. Always good to try something new, but the "what works for you" mentality goes a long way for many things, this included.

Badger

Your style sounds very similar to mine with the difference being the Magpul v Knights vertical grip. Great post.

I truly appreciate the replies and the insights expressed, once again another reason I like this place. Be safe.