Shooting at a charging target

[DenverGP]

My last few times at the range, I used the moving target holders to let me practice shooting at a target charging at me. Basically put the target out to 10 yards, then hit the keys to make it come back to zero. Drawing from the holster, get on target, and firing at least 2 shots. Many of my shots seem to be missing low, guessing I'm just not getting a good enough sight picture because the target is moving pretty quick. Possibly yanking the trigger a little too much as well due to trying to rush.

I did a bunch of shots from the holster with the target stationary, and I was pretty close once I reminded myself to actually pay attention to the sights on the target.

But once the target is moving, I'm hitting very low (usually right at the bottom edge of the 12" target). The first shot tends to be the lowest, second shot is usually better, but by the 2nd shot, the target is only 3-4 yards away.

I think I just need to slow things down, and of course practice more. But any suggestions appreciated.

[ZERO THEORY]

If I had to guess, I'd say that you're beginning your strings before the weapon is "flat" in front of you. Since you're in a hurry, you start to engage as soon as you reach an adequate angle of trajectory to the target, rather than pushing the pistol out to a dead perpendicular angle like you would without a time constraint.

[stenz]

Concentrate on really pushing your left thumb forward on your grip (if your right handed), pulling the trigger straight back, and not choking the gun to much.

[Gman]

Is the target continuing to hang vertically, or is it blowing back behind the hanger?

[ray1970]

Any way you could try a bigger target? Maybe an IDPA target or something? 12" is not much bigger than a dinner plate. I'd probably have trouble getting good shots on a charging dinner plate.

Also, with the target at ten yards and closing in, I wouldn't worry about the sights. If your handgun points naturally for you I would just point and shoot.

[DenverGP]

Some good tips, ty.

It's definitely possible that I'm not pressing the gun all the way out, i'll try to concentrate on that more, and maybe have the wife record me on her cellphone to see I can tell what i'm doing.

As for the off-hand thumb, I've really been working on rotating that support hand further forward, and it's really helped with my recoil control. But not positive it's quite right in the rush to get on target quick.

I do have some other targets that are a little taller, maybe 15", I've used those in the past, and still end up near the bottom of them. I'll get some of the full-sized targets next range visit.

The target is on a light cardboard carrier, and the bottom does blow back as the target is moving forward... I didn't put 2 and 2 together, but I did notice that the hits at the bottom of the target were a little oblong, indicating it was at an angle when the shots went thru.

It's a fun drill, definitely feels more useful than just seeing how many magazines I can empty.

[Duman]

A couple of ideas:
1. Staple a dowel rod or other small piece of wood at bottom of target to help reduce target blow back
2. Try the quick-draw-fire on a stationary target first, find initial point of impact
3. If possible, adjust the speed of target slow-to-fast, working up to top-speed

YMMV

[2cents]

[CHA-LEE]

Ask yourself this..... Are you trying to rush or hurry the shooting? Verses being patient and waiting to see the sights on the target then press off a clean shot?

usually when we "try" to shoot fast the fundamentals go out the window and you revert to mashing the crap out of the trigger as you double tap at the target.

having your wife video your drills is a very good idea. You can review the performance and easily identify issues when looking at a third person vantage point of your shooting. If you focus on eliminating wasted movement during the draw it will allow you to get the gun on target sooner. The sooner the sights are on target ther sooner you can start shooting without feeling like you have to rush to achieve the goal.

[275RLTW]

Keep using the sights but slow it down. Don't rush.

[UncleDave]

As Wyatt Earp once said, take your time in a hurry.

[SideShow Bob]

What range allows you to do holster draws and rapid firing ?
I would like to practice the same moving target shooting, all the indoor ranges I have been to have rules against drawing from the holster and rapid firing even a short string of shots.
I have been warned about doing double and triple taps even from raising the pistol from the bench, let alone holster draws.

[DenverGP]

BluCore is the range I go to. You need to demonstrate safe gun handling during the draw to one of their range officers before they let you do holster work. And semi-rapid fire is fine as long as it's controlled/aimed. I'm sure if someone blasts away rapid fire, they'll at least be watching closely to make sure they are being safe.

[Doc45]

Centennial Gun Club also allows holster work with the same policy as BluCore. For close up (7 yards and in) work I've always allowed my pistol to silhouette on a target, and agree with "punching" it out at the target. Able to easily keep my hits in the "center mass" of human sized/shape target.

[boomerhc9]

12" is not much bigger than a dinner plate. I'd probably have trouble getting good shots on a charging dinner plate.
.

dinner plates don't attack me, I attack dinner plates

[Tim K]

Ask yourself this..... Are you trying to rush or hurry the shooting? Verses being patient and waiting to see the sights on the target then press off a clean shot?

usually when we "try" to shoot fast the fundamentals go out the window and you revert to mashing the crap out of the trigger as you double tap at the target.

having your wife video your drills is a very good idea. You can review the performance and easily identify issues when looking at a third person vantage point of your shooting. If you focus on eliminating wasted movement during the draw it will allow you to get the gun on target sooner. The sooner the sights are on target ther sooner you can start shooting without feeling like you have to rush to achieve the goal.

Good advice from a skilled shooter. Pay attention.

[earplug]

Go shoot some USPSA or IDPA, more fun and lots of feed back if you ask for it.

[DenverGP]

Yeah, I've been planning to hit the clear creek IDPA... just haven't gotten my ass up the mountain early enough. And I'm definitely listening close to all the advice here, all is much appreciated.

[O2HeN2]

Keep using the sights but slow it down. Don't rush.
I've done a lot of coaching, and "slow down" is the worst advice you can give to any shooter.

You can only really work on one thing at a time. If "slowing down" is that one thing, you'll make all the same mistakes but slower.

But the advice isn't that far off. You need to figure out what you want to work on to solve your problem -- perhaps a better sight picture, perhaps a better trigger press.

Realize that working on something like that will CAUSE you to slow down. Allow it to happen. Slowing down becomes a side effect of solving the problem, not the goal.

Note the difference -- the object of your exercise is to solve a problem. As a side effect you allow yourself to slow down to solve that problem, versus slowing down being the object of the exercise.

Don't clutter your mind with "slow down". Focus (pun intended) on "better sight picture", "better trigger press", "better follow through" or whatever.

O2

[DenverGP]

Don't clutter your mind with "slow down". Focus (pun intended) on "better sight picture", "better trigger press", "better follow through" or whatever.


I did exactly that when I was practicing shooting from the draw at a stationary target. First few shots were off, and i realized I hadn't actually seen the front sight over the target. So before each draw, I was saying out loud "see the target", and all the rest of the shots were much better, and didn't really seem any slower.

I tried the same thing on the moving target, and still had the issue, so I know I'm seeing the sight on the target, but guessing I'm rushing the trigger pull due to the moving target. Feels like I need to hurry more, even though I know I have plenty of time to get off 2 shots.

[Mazin]

Some very good advice in this thread.

Maybe your pushing outward on your strong hand while pulling the trigger, IE not pulling in enough with your weak hand? That was a hard habit for me to break. I would see the sight and engage the target but unconsciously push forward on follow through of the trigger and give the barrel a slight tip down.

[275RLTW]

I've done a lot of coaching, and "slow down" is the worst advice you can give to any shooter.

You can only really work on one thing at a time. If "slowing down" is that one thing, you'll make all the same mistakes but slower.

But the advice isn't that far off. You need to figure out what you want to work on to solve your problem -- perhaps a better sight picture, perhaps a better trigger press.

Realize that working on something like that will CAUSE you to slow down. Allow it to happen. Slowing down becomes a side effect of solving the problem, not the goal.

Note the difference -- the object of your exercise is to solve a problem. As a side effect you allow yourself to slow down to solve that problem, versus slowing down being the object of the exercise.

Don't clutter your mind with "slow down". Focus (pun intended) on "better sight picture", "better trigger press", "better follow through" or whatever.

O2

I've found from my day or 2 as an instructor that most shooters rush everything when engaging a moving target. Since I cannot see any of his fundamentals, working on slowing everything down is a start for the shooter to see if there are any issues with the fundamentals. The phrase "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" comes into play here as usually fundamentals are usually solid before a shooter attempts moving targets.

[O2HeN2]

I've found from my day or 2 as an instructor that most shooters rush everything when engaging a moving target. Since I cannot see any of his fundamentals, working on slowing everything down is a start for the shooter to see if there are any issues with the fundamentals. The phrase "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" comes into play here as usually fundamentals are usually solid before a shooter attempts moving targets.
Don't disagree with this at all, because you're making the shooter slow down in order to help you diagnose the problem -- you're not using "slow down" as a solution to the problem. That's my point. Never offer "slow down" as a solution, it fixes nothing on its own.

O2

[O2HeN2]

...trigger pull...

Couple points:



Many people benefit from thinking trigger press rather than pull or squeeze.
If you got a friend willing to help, do some ball and dummy drills. You're probably pulling the gun down before the shot in a misguided attempt to recover from the recoil for a faster second shot. Big difference between pre-ignition-push and post-ignition-push. :)
An alternative in this case to ball and dummy is to back off to only one shot, trap the trigger with a very deliberate follow through and see what happens. Perhaps without the pressure of a second shot and not worrying about getting back on target quickly will bring that first shot back up, at which point you know what the problem is (yanking the gun down in an attempt to get back on target quickly).


O2

Ps. Ball and dummy IMHO Is one of the very best drills for determining problems because typically the shooter sees the problem for themselves and the "coach" needs not say anything :)

[DenverGP]

At least on the trigger "pull / press", I'm good to go, just using the wrong word when I describe it. Lots of hours of dry fire, and lots of rounds of practice fire. Of all the possible flaws in my shooting technique, I think the trigger pull /press is one of the areas I'm doing pretty well on.

At least during aimed fire, it's a very smooth press. Possibly losing a little smoothness when rushing, but during my "charging target" shooting, the shots that miss low are perfectly centered, and I think if I was yanking the trigger, I'd be off laterally as well.

I've been working with my wife, who does have a tendency to yank the trigger, and for her, it results in most shots missing left and down. After the first mag worth, I remind her to squeeze the trigger slower/smoother, let the break surprise her, and suddenly the next bunch of mags are right around the bullseye.

[CHA-LEE]

Are you using the sight picture (sights aligned on target) to determine "When" to break the shot? Or do you have a hard focus on the target and put the gun in between your face and target then crank off two rounds hoping that you hit the target? The second example is what is usually called "Point Shooting". Point shooting can be an effective shooting style if your grip, stance, and gun handling mechanics have been trained and practiced to a point of subconscious execution. The easiest way to test your skills in this is to aggressively draw the gun and point it at a target while maintaining a hard target focus the whole time. After the gun is fully mounted move your focus back to the sights to assess the overall position of the gun on target and sight alignment quality. If your sight alignment and overall on target pointing position isn't dead nuts on EVERY TIME you mount the gun on target then you have not trained or practiced these skills enough to rely on it in a point shooting scenario.

There are a lot of pistol shooters who think that point shooting while maintaining a hard target focus is "Faster" than observing the sights and validating the sight picture before breaking the shot. This type of thinking is flawed because shooters think that it takes more time to "See" the sights while shooting. Our eyes can observe and see way faster than performing any mechanical action, such as pulling the trigger. Since we can see and observe things way faster than mechanically commanded actions, there is no reason to NOT observe the sights and sight picture while shooting at any speed. The trick is to not waste time focusing on the wrong things. If you have a hard target focus during the start of the draw, it takes time to refocus back to the sights, especially when you don't start looking for the sights until the gun is fully mounted in front of your face in between your eye and target. If you start looking for the sights DURING the draw stroke, before the mount of the gun its actually completed, you will be able to pick up, assess, and process the sight picture as SOON as the gun and sights are on target. This allows you to break the shot as SOON as the sights are on target. Once you realize this fact then it is blatantly obvious that in order to draw and fire a shot faster, its not really about physically doing it faster, its about doing it more efficiently so you can get the gun on target and observe the sight picture sooner.

Observing the sights and sight picture as the gun fires allows you to call your shot so you instantly KNOW where the round will impact without even needing to look at the target to confirm the location of your hit. This process is called "Calling your shots". The ability to call your shot as the gun fires and the front sight lifts in recoil is a very difficult skill to hone and master. There are not many shooters who effectively learn and master this skill for all given shooting speeds or target types. The advantage of being able to call your shots is that since you instantly know if the shoot is good, marginal, or bad, you can instantly make up the shot if needed or move onto the next shot or activity. Calling your shots enables you to do the next thing as soon as possible because you instantly know if the shot that just broke is good enough for not. Doing the "next" thing could be breaking another shot, transitioning to the next target, performing a reload, or dismounting the gun and moving to the next shooting position.

In the end, the top shooters are "Fast" because they have eliminated as much waste as possible so they can do the next thing as SOON as possible. Observing what is going on by processing the sights and on target sight picture as you shoot is a huge step forward in allowing yourself to do the next thing sooner.

This information is probably well beyond what the average pistol shooter will be able to comprehend so I am not sure how useful it really is. Hopefully its helpful to someone.

[DenverGP]

Are you using the sight picture (sights aligned on target) to determine "When" to break the shot? Or do you have a hard focus on the target

Good stuff, ty for the time and effort.

I have in the past done some practice "point shooting", but for the current dirll, I am attempting to get an actual sight picture.

When I did the same basic drill just using point shooting, I was usually SOMEWHERE on a man-sized target, but not very consistent. In my current attempts to actually aim and fire, I'm more consistent, just that it's often consistently low.

On a stationary target, even with a quick "draw and fire", I do find that I usually know where the hit or miss is before even looking back at the target after the shot. Thats part of why I'm puzzled by my moving target, because on many of the shots, I was sure I had a good sight picture.

[CHA-LEE]

Then you are seeing the sights THEN mashing the crap out of the trigger or punching the gun down as the shot fires. Or a mixture of both. Most shooters mash the living shit out of the trigger when they try to shoot or draw in a hurry. The next time you go to the range, recreate the drawing to a moving target scenario but dry fire the drill instead. When you dry fire the drill, and closely observe the sights, it should be fairly obvious if you are inducing some type of sight displacement by mashing the trigger with excessive force or punching the gun down in anticipation of the shot. Most shooters brain/observation turns off right before the shot breaks because they are in a mode of bracing themselves for the event of the firing of the gun. They basically align the sights on target, decide to pull the trigger, then turn their brain off as they mash the shit out of the trigger to get the event over with. After the BOOM event they start paying attention again and some how think they were paying attention the whole time even though they were not.

Dry fire is a very effective tool in validating the proper execution of the fundamentals. You simply need to stay vigilant in observing what is going on while you are practicing the skills. I have seen the light bulb moment many times with students where they can't shoot a clean tight group slow fire and don't believe or understand that they are mashing the trigger, punching the gun down, or turning their brain/observation off until I have them shoot the same group in dry fire and simply observe the movement in the front sight as they shoot the group. The vast majority of the time they are astonished in how much the front sight is moving around while trying to shoot a group in a dry fire scenario. Then I ask them if they now understand why their live fire group is suffering and the light bulb usually turns on.

[stenz]

I dont know if this has been said but remember.... action is almost always faster then reation. If a bad dude is charging you he will cover WAY more distance then you think. If he's 10 yards out and starts to charge you have a split second do use your OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act), which is marking the threat, drawing your weapon, and engaging the target if needed. By the time you are engaging the target he will be right on top of you.

[O2HeN2]

Though dry fire is never NOT helpful, I don't think it'll be all that helpful in this case. A ball and dummy drill will make the shooter expect the gun to go off, and if it doesn't, any mistakes will be readily apparent.

When you do dry fire, you never expect the gun to go off and all that mashing, flinching and anticipation most often disappears. You need the gun NOT to go off when you expect it will! :)

O2