New 2 gun Match, NRA Whittington Center

[RiggerJJ]

Two rifle match at the NRA Whittington Center

I have had this new idea in mind for a while, so now is time to try it out. Saturday, October 11, shooters brief at 0830 at the Unknown Distance Range, across from competitors housing at NRAWC. Geared toward longer range shooting with a 223 carbine from 1-300 yards, and a precision rifle (223 to 300WM, max velocity 3200fps) from 50-800 yards. A timed event with stages utilizing both guns. Bring a sling for your precision rifle as you may be shooting the carbine while moving to a precision shooting position. Bring a minimum of 100 rounds for each rifle. A separate division for carbine (223 or 308 or? ) only will be available for those who want to play but don't have a precision rifle, bring a minimum of 200 rounds. Scopes of all varietys, packs, bipods, shooting sticks, rear bags, etc are all allowed and encouraged. I am planning at this time for distances to be known prior to the clock starting, having a good rangefinder may be helpful by not required, borrowing is allowed. We will shoot 4 or 5 stages, depending on how many are interested. I need to know if you are interested in coming to shoot. Send email with questions, etc, and let's shoot some rifles!

rm3gun@yahoo.com

thanks!
jj

[Hoser]

Suppressors welcome or are they shunned to Open?

[Tim K]

Sounds like a fun match. The timing is unfortunate that month with the team challenge the following weekend, but I'd be in another time.

[RiggerJJ]

this ain't 3gun, notice I said bipods, etc ok...supressors ok too...

This was the only time I could get at NRAWC before the snow flying...if things go well we will do some next year too. I know hunting season and the team challenge and all, just couldn't get any other time. for what its worth, it could be a good wringing out for team challenge, and its only on saturday...

jj

[XC700116]

Sounds like a fun match. The timing is unfortunate that month with the team challenge the following weekend, but I'd be in another time.

I'm in this same boat as well. Sounds like a fun idea for sure.

It would probably be a good way to tune up for the team challenge but unfortunately I won't be able to make it that weekend.

[Delfuego]

You've got me interested...

[C Ward]

JJ ,
Only thing that I can see being an issue is 100 + round of precision rifle across 4-5 stages of time Plus scoring . The barrel on your precision rifle is going to get stupid hot . Thats why when Eddie was alternating bolt and semi at the PWSA carbine match the bolt side died and every body went semi . With rebarreling going to run you 500 ish and up its a definite consideration.

[RiggerJJ]

Yea, wasn't sure how many rounds, so starting with a high estimate, 20 rounds max per stage or so, depending on how much you miss and allowing for reengagement...was thinking 5-8 targts per stage for precision, 10 - 15 for the AR with some paper included. I understand the barrel considerations. Just trying to get something out there, will tune as needed between now and the 11th, when I figure out how many are going to attend.
Thanks for the feedback!

[C Ward]

20 rds out of a typical precision rifle at 3 gun pace will get the barrel so hot you wont be able to touch it for prob 20 minutes after . I'd limit the precision stuff to 10 - 12 rds a stage , typically done by only 2 rds max at each target or like SRM with 1 and done .

[MarkCO]

50 rounds over 5 stages is 10 rounds/stage...Agreed Chuck. :)

[RiggerJJ]

Sounds good, thanks for the input!
Just blazing a new trail here, so this is good stuff.

[RiggerJJ]

so hows this sound for a generic stage?;

start w/ carbine low ready loaded, slung PR empty. 5 paper, 5 steel, 5 PR steel, standard time added miss penalties, 2 rounds max per PR target. 5 minute par time. best total time wins stage, converted to 100 match points per stage.

jj

[C Ward]

With it being known distance 5 minutes should be more than enough time depending on movement and the positions available. Depending on the carbine shots I'll suspect people will want to ground the PR while engaging those targets most definatly will want to ground the carbine when driving the long gun .

[DocMedic]

what would be the penality time for missed LR steel? It would be pretty easy to pull a JT on those targets [mop]

[RiggerJJ]

I just wanted to see how the generic stage description was received, but now that we are getting into details...

Chuck; Carbine targets will be offhand or kneeing if the PR is slung. could do a couple carbine targets after unslinging/grounding PR from the PR position off a bipod, then transition to PR. carbine max ~100 off hand, ~200 kneeling, ~300 off a bipod. Not all stages have slung PR.

Curtis (and Mark); agreed on the JT rule...10 seconds per miss, per target, 2 rounds per target. the 5 PR targets are mandatory PR. 10 rounds max from the PR on this stage.

Mark; if using a carbine only, (different division for those without a PR) unlimited rounds on all targets, min 2 rounds each on PR targets. The longer range targets are not required for the carbine. >600 stuff.

once shooter gets to the PR position, he unloads the carbine, shows clear, grounds it pointed downrange, then engages the PR targets.

[DocMedic]

I dont think that 10sec is a high enough penality for PR. I see it as the time I look locate my target, look at my DOPE card, make adjustment on my scope, break the shot, then readjust if you miss the first shot and pull the trigger again your already past 10 secs of actual shooting time where as, if I "Find" my target, do a hold over shot, and call "skip" If I miss instead of re-engage a the target i might be 3sec of shooting with a 10sec penality for that target.

[MarkCO]

I agree Curtis. The top guys are only shooting a round every 15 seconds, or more. I'd think 30 seconds would be the minimum miss per LR target. Otherwise, one shot and if you miss, just jack the second one and move on.

[RiggerJJ]

Curtis and Mark; Maybe I was not clear? 2 rounds MANDITORY per PR target. 10 seconds miss PER shot. thinking we could maybe bump that to 15 if 10 isn't enough...but was thinking 10 just for kiss sake...

[C Ward]

Even offhand I'd want to ground that 4ft long 20 lbs pig kneeling would be even worse . Almost exclusively we all sling our rifles in the front muzzle up to keep the muzzle from smacking dirt and rocks and to keep control of where its pointing .

I absolutely hate abandoning and staging guns and would rather carry all my crap and have to deal with it accordingly .

There may be some merit to you have 10 rds for 5 PR targets use them accordingly , if that is the case then I would make a bonus of some kind for every round left over for the guy that goes 5 for 5 .

[C Ward]

This is a shooting competition after all and the idea is to hit the targets not figure out how to miss them faster than the other guy right .

[DocMedic]

As you said, its a competition so there must be a winner, and everyone else that will lose. If missing targets faster = winning, its going to happen.

I think this was the reason PRS went with a Points per hit system with Par-time instead of a Time Plus scoring format.

[MarkCO]

Anyway, kudos JJ. Just wish it was a weekend more of us could make.

[RiggerJJ]

maybe I don't want "more" at the 1st one... :)
10-12 would probably be perfect...

eta; I can handle more shooters thou... :)

jj

[C Ward]

The whole missing fast enough to win is one of the biggest if not the biggest issue with 3gun as it has evolved in the last 10 years . When 2 anywhere and a hole is a hole came about accuracy became a thing of the past .

The old matches run on SOF rules and RO style with no walk throughs where you didn't move past a position until all the required targets were hit not just " engaged " always made more sense to me . It favored the shooter not the planner .

[spqrzilla]

I'd enjoy this as well, but committed on Oct 11th already.

[RiggerJJ]

I have a couple of ideas for scoring, could do it based on points with par time, or time plus. Both have valid reasons... [panic]Could use both?

anyway, I will need a for-sure-I-am-coming email from shooters to make this happen on the 11th of October, need at least 10, prefer 20 shooters. I will post some written stage descriptions in a day or so.
rm3gun@yahoo.com
jj

[RiggerJJ]

I have 6 shooters as of this evening...

... Mike K and Chuck W are 2 of them! thanks guys!
jj

[RiggerJJ]

I need to know who is coming by email so I can make plans.
Rm3gun@yahoo.com
October 11, NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM.

Will have 2 different types of stages, probably 2 each but could go up to 3 each if the interest is there, a field course of fire and a stationary position course of fire. Trying to keep this easy from set up, to scoring and teardown, so if you see something that may help let me know.

The Field Stages will have movement from a start position with AR loaded at low ready, PR slung, any additional equipment also carried. Engaging AR paper and steel targets (~5 each) while moving to the PR shooting position, no requirement on number of rounds expended. Once at the PR position the AR will be grounded safely and then the shooter will engage 5 long range steel targets, 2 rounds each max. A 1st round hit on each PR target is desired. Normal par time will be 5 minutes, 10 points available for the AR, 10 for the PR with a total of 20 points max per stage.
AR Paper will be 2 scored rounds each, 1/2 point each for A/B, 1/4 point each for C, no score for D.
Each AR steel will be worth 1 point.
Each PR steel will be worth 2 points if hit on 1st round, 1 point if hit on 2nd round.
No point for misses or FTEs.
The Stationary Stages will be from defined shooting positions, maybe 10-20 feet apart, AR at one and PR at the other. Again, unlimited rounds with the AR are allowed at 10 targets, with 2 per max at 5 targets with the PR, 10 points available with each, 20 per stage.
AR and PR targets scored the same, 1 point each for AR, 1 or 2 points each for PR depending on if hit 1st or 2nd attempt. AR's must be .223, PR 30 caliber or smaller. Will have a separate division for those with an AR15 only, but that still want to play!

Just about anything goes, ARs must be 223, PR must be 30 cal or smaller, can be semi auto or manual. No restrictions on bipods, suppressors, tripods, etc. any questions please ask!
Again, I need to know if you are coming! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png
jj

[RiggerJJ]

Got the stages planned out, can put out 4 - 6 depending on participation, 10-12 have said they will be coming.

Let me know...
thanks!
jj

[RiggerJJ]

An AR15 and AR10 is an acceptable combo, or a single AR 15 can also shoot in a seperate division...

[RiggerJJ]

OK, we have 10-12 that say they are coming, so it's on this saturday, 11 October, at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM. If you decide at the last minute to show up, please at least let me know by phone or email before you get there. We will meet on the Unknown Distance Range, the natural terrain range across the road from the Competitor Housing buildings to the north that had the 1400 yard longest shot in 3 gun in 2013. The personnel in the Main Gate can give you directions, tell them you are shooting JJ's rifle match on Unknown Distance Range. Go thru the UKD gate and drive north about 5-600 yards on the road and you will find us. We will meet at 0800 for signup, stage briefs start at 0830, shooting starts by 0900. If you want to sight in, use the sight in range just to the west. $30 to play. Will have 4 stages as described above, which means max of 40 rounds of PR ammo, no limit on amount of AR ammo you can shoot, but I would say a 30 round mag full per stage would be plenty, for about 120 rounds. Please check all bullets with a magnet, you will not be able to shoot magnetic bullets. Please note that we will need help breaking down the stages and putting the targets away after we finish, and I should be able to have scores available then as well.
rm3gun@yahoo.com
jj

[RiggerJJ]

Targets are set up, weather will be nice but cool tomorrow am, so
layering is applicable...
Should be fun! Mike Kolar and Chuck Ward have vetted the stages too!
See yall tmorrow!
jj

[RiggerJJ]

Well, those that choose to show up had a good time! This concept has potential, stay tuned... :)

[RiggerJJ]

Just got the official okey dokey from NRAWC to have another go at this, saturday December 6th. I will keep a close eye on weather and make a weather call on friday.
So put some toys together and come shoot!
jj

[RiggerJJ]

I need to know who is coming on the 6th...IF the weather is nice!


Thanks!
jj

[C Ward]

Barrel on the AR was toasty , had to put the back up upper back together . If I get ammo for it sorted out this weekend I should be there .

[RiggerJJ]

Weather is looking good for Saturday, I need more shooters! [Beer]

Please let me know if you are planning on attending but haven't yet told me, I really want a good head count going into it. If you have told me you are coming or may come but cannot, please also let me know.

More details to follow on round count, courses, etc this evening...
jj

[RiggerJJ]

OK, it’s a go for Saturday’s 2 rifle match, weather looks good, highs in the low 50s. If you haven’t said so yet but are coming please let me know. I have 2 squads set up, and have a couple of slots available on each. We will meet and shoot on the 1000 yard Hi Power Range, can’t use Unknown Distance because hunters will be there. Sign up starts at 0800, stage briefs at 0830, shooting starts at 0900. I will be setting up on Friday, so if you have a notion to help I won’t turn you away! Setting up 60 targets for 4 stages will take a while…
For ammo I would have at least 150 rounds of AR ammo, and max PR shots will be 40 rounds if you miss a lot! 4 stages, 5 minutes max time each, 10 AR targets per stage with unlimited shots, 5 PR targets per stage with 2 rounds max per target. Any accessories you want to use are fine, be aware you will need an elevated stick, bipod, tripod, etc for the PR this time. The sight in range is open for your use.
In the interest of time management during the match, we will not allow any sight pictures or pre-staging of accessories. Start position will be with pack and PR slung, all accessories in or attached to pack or rifles, with AR loaded on safe at port arms.
If you have a stop watch, please bring it for timing other shooters. You will need a pack, the standard collection of rear bags, and a shooting stick (monopod, bipod, tripod) that will work from kneeling to standing. Attached bipods are encouraged for both rifles, suppressors are ok. Expect targets for AR from pistol distance to 400 yards, PR targets out to 900 yards. ARs must be 223/5.56, and PR 30 cal or smaller. Expect helping to tear down the stages and put away steel afterwards for 30 minutes or so.
See ya Saturday!

jj

[Dinosdeuce]

Shot this match yesterday. Weather was good for this time of year. We had a great squad and I really had fun. AS JJ said it is an evolving match. Will shoot it again.

[RiggerJJ]

Here's results posted on our website...thanks to everyone for coming! Congrats to Steve for the smoking perfect scores on 3 stages!

http://home.earthlink.net/~johnson3gun/id15.html

Next match? January is a no-go because the range is closed all month...

I was hearing 2nd weekend from some of this month's shooters, any other suggestions?

jj

(sent out an email Sunday with results, just following up here. If you want to be on our email list, rm3gun@yahoo.com)

[RiggerJJ]

Next match May 10th!
jj

[Dinosdeuce]

Shit I'll be out of town