View Full Version : Officers fire 600 rounds into car with hostage inside...
clublights
10-20-2014, 17:19
Six HUNDRED rounds into the the SUV.. talk anotu freakin over kill... 33 officers 600 rounds ... means everyone dumped at least one mag into it...
I get wanting to go home.. I get wanting to live another day .. but what about the innocent hostage they knew was in there?
Jesus.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/33-officers-fire-600-bullets-car-knowing-contained-hostage/
Wow. That's .... mind numbing.....
hghclsswhitetrsh
10-20-2014, 17:34
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
What if we found out that one of the cops was a part time lawyer?
TheBelly
10-20-2014, 17:45
IBTL?
This is my favorite quote.
​The department has defended its officers, saying they were worried the violence would escalate.
Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/33-officers-fire-600-bullets-car-knowing-contained-hostage/#kj8FvJxR5rxLFmi4.99
Had to put a ceiling on the possible level of violence I guess.
OtterbatHellcat
10-20-2014, 17:51
This is my favorite quote.
Had to put a ceiling on the possible level of violence I guess. [/FONT][/COLOR]
Names will be called.
Shut up, you fairy.
JK.
sellersm
10-20-2014, 17:54
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go. Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling. A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher. Someone is going to say IBTL. A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave. Someone will take it over the line. Names will be called. Thread will be locked and/or purged. The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc. On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges./close thread
bobbyfairbanks
10-20-2014, 17:56
[Pop][Pop]
I guess this is another vote for why you never let yourself become a hostage?
wctriumph
10-20-2014, 18:09
Incredible lapse in judgment and command in this incident.
Prayers on the way for the mother that was senselessly killed and for her family.
It really is too bad that we are becoming a police state and that it is going the "Them vs Us" mentality on both sides of the equation.
Prayers for all of us on the way up.
68Charger
10-20-2014, 18:11
I guess this is another vote for why you never let yourself become a hostage?
AND we have a WINNER!!!
I say we close the thread- or just continue on this topic- how to avoid becoming a hostage (besides cyanide pills)
Shoot until the threat is eliminated.
[Pop][Pop]
Hahaha!
[Sofa]
BlasterBob
10-20-2014, 18:18
[shithitsfan]
What if we found out that one of the cops was a part time lawyer?
HEY! I was a part time lawyer while a full time cop. I guess that make me special.
Mike
I am blaming this on HIGH CAPACITY GUN CLIPS!
The criminals only fired 100 rounds during the 55 mile chase. How does anyone besides criminals get 100 or more rounds of ammunition in California?
HEY! I was a part time lawyer while a full time cop. I guess that make me special.
Mike
Self loathing. Everyone knows cops hate lawyers [Coffee]
68Charger
10-20-2014, 18:32
I am blaming this on HIGH CAPACITY GUN CLIPS!
The criminals only fired 100 rounds during the 55 mile chase. How does anyone besides criminals get 100 or more rounds of ammunition in California?
Why not blame the bank- high capacity vaults are the only reason these kinds of crimes are committed in the first place...[Sarcasm2]
Sounds convenient in a way. Kill the hostage and the surviving robber gets charged for it. Makes sense, but also would make people have much greater reckless abandon going in knowing that.
Zombie Steve
10-20-2014, 18:39
Course it took 600 rounds. They were probably firing 9mm and .223.
[Peep]
jerrymrc
10-20-2014, 18:39
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
Only partially true.
You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops,
This part is wrong because we have let many threads go. Here is where we draw the line.
Yea, those cops need to be fired.
Cops are bad
All cops are bad
All cops need to be shot
These are the responses that follow in order that get the thread sent to the basement.
Remember this site was founded by a LEO. just a thought. [Flower]
Sounds convenient in a way. Kill the hostage and the surviving robber gets charged for it. Makes sense, but also would make people have much greater reckless abandon going in knowing that.
That is referred to as a "morale hazard."
Obviously I feel compassion for the victim and her family.
I also feel bad for the crime scene technicians who have to account for and reconstruct the trajectory of all of this ammunition. Where did all of these rounds go and what other damage did they cause? I'm surprised there aren't numerous other people claiming injuries caused by fragmentation and flying debris.
I think there is a little bit of a "Herd Mentality" when you have the good guys and the bad guys all amped up.
You got sirens going, adrenaline rushing. 30-40 cops all yelling and guns drawn.
Then one shot is fired... That's when all the other hammers fall. Fear ensues... "whoah the guy next to me is emptying his Mag. This must be really bad, I better fill the air with lead too."
68Charger
10-20-2014, 18:46
Only partially true.
This part is wrong because we have let many threads go. Here is where we draw the line.
Yea, those cops need to be fired.
Cops are bad
All cops are bad
All cops need to be shot
These are the responses that follow in order that get the thread sent to the basement.
Remember this site was founded by a LEO. just a thought. [Flower]
All good points- what about "where's the riots for Misty?" [dig]
Do you trust the Cato Institute?
Bailey Guns
10-20-2014, 19:03
You'd think 500 rounds would be enough. How in the hell did someone survive that?
buffalobo
10-20-2014, 19:04
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
Isn't all this why we make popcorn and ice pepsi?
For crying out loud, it's the internet, it's why we come here. Like a moth to a flame or a redneck to Talledega. It's the carnage.
Besides, we obviously have nothing better to do. [emoji33] [emoji13]
Great-Kazoo
10-20-2014, 19:09
Do you trust the Cato Institute?
If he was good enough for the Green Lantern, he's good enough for news. Why the hate for asian crime fighters in mask ?
You'd think 500 rounds would be enough. How in the hell did someone survive that?
Some cops were aiming for the leg.
ZERO THEORY
10-20-2014, 19:13
IBTL?
Irritable Bowel Total Loss
If he was good enough for the Green Lantern, he's good enough for news. Why the hate for asian crime fighters in mask ?
Someone deleted their post expressing distrust for the news source. If they are interested, the Cato Institute provides an interesting news clipping database. I read it regularly and although many of the stories are disturbing and tragic, I think it would be a useful read for anyone in the law enforcement profession.
In general, I find even good new sources get the story half right within a week of the incident being reported and they normally only get up to 70% right if they follow the story for more than three months.
Joe Friday was interested in just the facts. Journalists have lots of facts, depending on what they believe and where they want the story to go. The facts that don't get reported are just as important.
TheBelly
10-20-2014, 19:33
Irritable Bowel Total Loss
Only yesterday, Bro.
Aloha_Shooter
10-20-2014, 20:05
Someone deleted their post expressing distrust for the news source.
Specifically, I stated I would like to get information from a less biased source since the website quoted in the OP appears to be devoted toward making police look bad. Shortly after posting that, I found stories from other sources that appear to be less biased which had somewhat similar information. The charge that 33 officers fired over 600 rounds into an SUV of fleeing bank robbers appears to be factual. WHY they fired so many rounds into the SUV wasn't clear to me although there was at least one source talking about the officers taking fire of over 100 rounds from the fleeing robbers. What IS clear to me is that some people will stop at nothing to take the most jaundiced view of police whenever they can.
I would still like more information before I take a knee jerk reaction about the incident. My past experience has been similar to cstone's although I'm not sure I'd give the reporters credit for getting up to 70% right.
SideShow Bob
10-20-2014, 20:14
If he was good enough for the Green Lantern, he's good enough for news. Why the hate for asian crime fighters in mask ?
Um, Masked Hero check, try the Green ​Hornet​.
They only get to 70% if they stay with the story for three months or more. The majority of news sources are tailored to the general public which has the attention span of a gnat.
Oh look, pictures of Kim Kardashian [facepalm]
Winner! [Coffee]
I will make it easy and do all except 4 and 6.
1. Flaw
2. "you don't know what it's like" in real situation!
3. IBTL!!!
4. (Can't do this, because I am not the mod)
5. All you forum mebers! "You guys all sucks!" "You don't have a proper training" "armchair commander!" (over the line)
6. (Can't do this, because I am not the mod)
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
The had just watched the Speed marathon....
"Shoot the hostage"
Let me tell you how this thread is going to go.
Someone is going to point out the flaws in the officers handling.
A current, former or wanna be cop is going to say "you don't know what it's like" possibly labeling the other person a cop basher.
Someone is going to say IBTL.
A mod is going to say they're watching this thread closely and behave.
Someone will take it over the line.
Names will be called.
Thread will be locked and/or purged.
The end. You know cause we can't say anything negative about corrupt cops, only politicians, unions, teachers, janitors, "operators", etc etc.
On a serious note: if these are all facts in the article, 33 people should lose their job and possibly face charges.
I'm only 3 posts in but I'm going to have to agree with you.... even if you were banned somewhere later in this thread for pointing out the obvious. [Coffee]
I'll say this, and I'm no defending or condemning anyone or taking any side...
1- Suspect fires 100 rounds. Decision must be made, do we defend ourselves, or continue to get shot at, in hopes of not getting shot ourselves, and preserve the life of the hostage.
2- Under extreme stress (like in a shootout) fine motor skills deteriorate significantly, making accuracy very poor in most cases. 600 might be what it took to stop the bad guy from shooting back...?
3- The media has, more so lately, been extremely anti-LE, thus the story will exclude some pretty important facts. Just be aware- I wasn't there, you weren't there, and most certainly, the members of the media weren't there. Maybe they were wrong, maybe they were just following survival instinct, or maybe they were abiding by department policy. Who knows? Personally, I think if 33 officers can't stop a suspect before 600 rounds are fired into a vehicle, perhaps Stockton PD might need to schedule a little bit more range time...
Not cool at all. Shouldn't take 33 cops, 600 rounds, hostage shouldn't be hit 10 times, her family will receive a massive payout. Cops will be out on leave, I wonder how many will lose their jobs.
Not cool at all. Shouldn't take 33 cops, 600 rounds, hostage shouldn't be hit 10 times, her family will receive a massive payout. Cops will be out on leave, I wonder how many will lose their jobs.
You're kidding right??? I have several family members and a few friends who are LE and while this has never been an issue with any of them I've seen enough to know that this was "justified". Not bashing but it really seems to me that there is little oversight in these types of situations.
mcantar18c
10-20-2014, 21:08
2- Under extreme stress (like in a shootout) fine motor skills deteriorate significantly, making accuracy very poor in most cases. 600 might be what it took to stop the bad guy from shooting back...?
Bullshit. Maybe for Joe Public with zero training, but not for people who train regularly for such situations. Not once have I ever experienced a loss of motor skills so significant as to allow that much of a deterioration in accuracy or trigger control.
You're kidding right??? I have several family members and a few friends who are LE and while this has never been an issue with any of them I've seen enough to know that this was "justified". Not bashing but it really seems to me that there is little oversight in these types of situations.
Oversight? Each cop shot nearly 20 rounds each at 3 targets. With a variance of at least one horrible shot that hit a hostage 10 times, all the way up to 10 cops shooting a hostage. Please justify that many rounds from that many cops at 3 suspects. I'd love to hear it.
Bullshit. Maybe for Joe Public with zero training, but not for people who train regularly for such situations. Not once have I ever experienced a loss of motor skills so significant as to allow that much of a deterioration in accuracy or trigger control.
Have you been shooting at a target that was shooting back? That's where the difference comes in. And also no where in the article (or in anything I could find in 20 secs of googling the same situation via different outlets) have I seen any mention of distance. That also can play a role. Again, not defending the PD's actions, just offering some insight into possible reasons and explanations as to why so many rounds were fired and why so few hit their target.
Two other hostages managed to get out of the car while it was moving. They survived. I'm not sure what that says about jumping out of a car moving at a high rate of speed, but the results in this specific incident seem to indicate that broken legs and lacerations were the better option.
There has been lots of second guessing on "high speed pursuit" policies around the country. Officers involved never favor having officials not involved in the chase ordering a pursuit being discontinued over the radio. I don't know whether there were air assets available, however, this case may be a good example for dropping back and taking the chance that the suspects get away.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not second guessing. Those involved made their choices and they alone will be called to justify their actions. I hope that this incident, as well as all others similar, can be used to learn and instruct others in how to do things better in the future.
Be safe.
mcantar18c
10-20-2014, 21:34
Have you been shooting at a target that was shooting back? That's where the difference comes in
Yes I have. The difference is their main goal was to actually kill us and if they died in the process then so be it, not to get away so they can enjoy the bounty they just went through the effort of stealing. Also they had an entire lifetime of training from growing up in that environment, not just one or two successful previous runs.
Still no significant degradation in accuracy or trigger control. You just fall back on your training.
And also no where in the article (or in anything I could find in 20 secs of googling the same situation via different outlets) have I seen any mention of distance. That also can play a role. Again, not defending the PD's actions, just offering some insight into possible reasons and explanations as to why so many rounds were fired and why so few hit their target.
If they were close enough to engage safely given the considerations (hostage in vehicle, civilian backdrop, etc.), there's no excuse for missing; if they were too far to safely engage given the considerations, there's no excuse for opening fire.
It's pretty black and white.
And don't try to say they had to keep their heads down and keep them pinned... you don't use suppressive fire on a target where collateral damage is a concern.
I don't know that this is always anti-police, so much as it is being very harsh on what is perceived to be poor decision making in hindsight. Personally, I think the attitude is less "cops are bad" and more of a reaction to years and years of policy makers and the media saying, "YOU can't have guns because mistakes will be made, and we can't afford those kind of mistakes." To me, these threads are more of a way to continuously call into question that misplaced government and media mentality. Again, I'm sure for some people it may be an anti-cop thing, but to me, and I think many others, it isn't.
Anyway, the thing that I always wonder about is the number of police officers actively involved in these situations. Imagine what 33 people surrounding one vehicle even looks like. At what point do officers take a step back and say, "Looks like they've got enough guys on this one." Not to mention the 15 other guys pointing guns more or less at them, with only a vehicle in between. I've personally been in a situation where someone else was handling a situation, and I jumped in to "help" when I was clearly not needed, so I get it. In my case, there was one guy handling a guy. There weren't 32 other guys handling 3 guys. *This was when I was a bouncer by the way, not like jumping in on fist fights.
Aloha_Shooter
10-20-2014, 21:46
I'd like to point something else out. 600+ shots, only 10 rounds hit the hostage. I think I've seen worse at IPSC matches without moving vehicles or the cardboard shooting back.
I'd like to point something else out. 600+ shots, only 10 rounds hit the hostage. I think I've seen worse at IPSC matches without moving vehicles or the cardboard shooting back.
Maybe they were aiming for her to compensate?
SSDD -
EAST CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Investigators will begin today interviewing the 13 Cleveland police officers who fired 137 bullets Thursday at a car, killing a Cleveland man and woman in East Cleveland after a high-speed chase.
Cleveland officials are suspending 63 police officers for their roles in a November car chase that ended in the shooting deaths (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/cleveland_police_chase_and_shooting_scene.html) of an unarmed man and woman.
mcantar18c
10-20-2014, 21:59
I'd like to point something else out. 600+ shots, only 10 rounds hit the hostage. I think I've seen worse at IPSC matches without moving vehicles or the cardboard shooting back.
Really depends on how many actually hit the car.
Reminds me of this "King of the Hill" episode.
I remember my first buck.
Took me six shots to bring him down three more to finish him off.
There was no useable meat left, but what a thrill.
The Hollywood bank robbery really puts it into perspective for me.
Over 300 law enforcement officers from various forces had responded to the city-wide TAC alert.
The two well-armored men had fired approximately 1,100 rounds, while approximately 650 rounds were fired by police.
I'm not going to even try to determine if they should or should not have used that much firepower I was not there. Having said that, I think this story could go a long way toward proving that even for trained LE professionals it takes more than 15 rounds to stop a threat. It looks like it could take as many as 200 rounds to stop each perp and they didn't even kill one of them. Maybe if the ten errant rounds that killed the hostage would have hit the surviving perp he would be dead as well. It also took 33 officers to prove this, so they can't say it was one cop that can't shoot. Now let us have our standard capacity mags.
Don't these bad guys watch movies, aren't you suppose to die after one shot.
How the hell did the sole suspect survive 600 rounds?
How the hell did the sole suspect survive 600 rounds?
http://static.ruvr.ru/2014/06/10/07/bulletproof_blanket02.jpg
clublights
10-20-2014, 22:22
How the hell did the sole suspect survive 600 rounds?
I see that the same as some gun camera footage you see from the sandbox.
apache fires a volley of rounds right at the guy .... still gets back up and runs away ... Luck I guess.. well till they get him with the second volley .. tho I did see one were the guy survived 1 hellfire and 2 volleys of cannon fire, 3rd one blew him to pieces tho.
How the hell did the sole suspect survive 600 rounds?
I still say, everything worth saying has already been said... you just have to find it.
Jules (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000168/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):This was Divine Intervention! You know what "divine intervention" is?Vincent (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000237/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Yeah, I think so. That means God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Jules (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000168/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Yeah, man, that's what it means. That's exactly what it means! God came down from Heaven and stopped the bullets.
Vincent (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000237/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):I think we should be going now.
Jules (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000168/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Don't do that! Don't you fucking do that! Don't blow this shit off! What just happened was a fucking miracle!
Vincent (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000237/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Chill the fuck out, Jules, this shit happens.
Jules (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000168/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Wrong! Wrong, this shit doesn't just happen.
Vincent (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000237/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Do you wanna continue this theological discussion in the car, or at the jailhouse with the cops?
Jules (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000168/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):We should be fuckin' dead now, my friend! We just witnessed a miracle, and I want you to fucking acknowledge it!
Vincent (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000237/?ref_=tt_trv_qu):Okay man, it was a miracle, can we leave now?
Separate but related scene since I couldn't find a short clip of the first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ-y3kDkF6w
Reminds me of this..... http://rt.com/usa/lapd-dorner-shooting-review-738/ Did these guys get transfers? The only ones that win when this happens is the lawyers. And the stucco and siding guys. You though the hail messes up building.
jhood001
10-20-2014, 23:05
I'll say this, and I'm no defending or condemning anyone or taking any side...
1- Suspect fires 100 rounds. Decision must be made, do we defend ourselves, or continue to get shot at, in hopes of not getting shot ourselves, and preserve the life of the hostage.
Who is this 'we' you speak of?
http://www.grunt.com/corps/uploads/blog/marinebulletholes.jpg
I would have ZERO problem with the 600rds fired... if there wasn't a hostage in the same vehicle. Turns out she was a mother who died. Yeah, that's a problem. A BIG problem that is being trivialized so far in this discussion. Unless there's a very important detail being left out then that's my stance and I'm not sure any of us fighting for 2A rights should have a different stance than that... regardless of if it's 33 armed citizens or 33 LEOs.
Ranger353
10-21-2014, 13:10
Tragic, terrible situation. Interesting discussion.
tim-adams
10-21-2014, 13:22
justified but sad..
it appears that there was no sniper placing strategic shots..
This was a large group of LEO using whatever tools they had to stop this from turning into a 20 hostage stand off..
no easy answers, no take backs, no arm chair second guessing.
the officers were well withing policy for using lethal force, sad that they where not a bit more judicious, but I was not there.
I read somewhere that the last scumbag survived by using the hostage as a shield..
sad its Cali, in most of the Midwest that bastard would be guaranteed the death chamber for this.. in Cali he will have three meals and a cot for the rest of his scumbag life.
sad. I approve of the how not to be a hostage part..
first step: DO NOT LIVE IN CALIFORNIA, New York City
second step: use your EDC weapon to neutralize the kidnapper
third step : fake a fainting, go boneless and fall down. (I am a sizable guy, they may shoot me on the ground but I will not be a hostage)
alt Third step: RUN, better to be shot in the back running and get medical help, then die in a field/ditch with no one to help you.
more info
http://fox40.com/2014/08/11/stockton-police-chief-speaks-on-misty-holt-singhs-death/
Ranger353
10-21-2014, 13:57
justified but sad..
it appears that there was no sniper placing strategic shots..
This was a large group of LEO using whatever tools they had to stop this from turning into a 20 hostage stand off..
no easy answers, no take backs, no arm chair second guessing.
the officers were well withing policy for using lethal force, sad that they where not a bit more judicious, but I was not there.
I read somewhere that the last scumbag survived by using the hostage as a shield..
sad its Cali, in most of the Midwest that bastard would be guaranteed the death chamber for this.. in Cali he will have three meals and a cot for the rest of his scumbag life.
sad. I approve of the how not to be a hostage part..
first step: DO NOT LIVE IN CALIFORNIA, New York City
second step: use your EDC weapon to neutralize the kidnapper
third step : fake a fainting, go boneless and fall down. (I am a sizable guy, they may shoot me on the ground but I will not be a hostage)
alt Third step: RUN, better to be shot in the back running and get medical help, then die in a field/ditch with no one to help you.
more info
http://fox40.com/2014/08/11/stockton-police-chief-speaks-on-misty-holt-singhs-death/
+1 for sound advice.
Bailey Guns
10-21-2014, 15:24
Unless there's a very important detail being left out then that's my stance and I'm not sure any of us fighting for 2A rights should have a different stance than that... regardless of if it's 33 armed citizens or 33 LEOs.
I'm not seeing how this is a 2A issue?
I'm not seeing how this is a 2A issue?
I'm not the one who brought it up. Addressing a point someone made earlier about how it helps the 2A cause.
I know when it's not my ammo, I shoot a little more liberally.
There is NO justification. All that did was give real cops a bad name.
ZERO THEORY
10-21-2014, 17:09
http://i.imgur.com/AYM3SGm.gif
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.