Transfering a lower to a trust after BGC law?

[cfortune]

I tried searching for this but couldn't come up with anything. Don't frequent this sub forum often (maybe I should) and digging through the long list of "Form 1 question" threads and such grew tiresome. I apologize if this is a repost (it probably is).

I purchased a lower with the intent of building an SBR with a form 1 on a trust. I was filling out the eforms today and got to the point where I need to upload my trust documents. I was going to slap the lower on the schedule A, scan it in, and upload it. Right as the pen was about to hit the paper, it hit me. Is that legal? Can I transfer my lower to my trust due to our "new" laws? Is there a way to facilitate transferring a title 1 firearm to a trust in Colorado?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[ray1970]

Good question. I'd like to know the answer myself.

[Circuits]

The geniuses in Denver never gave a though to anything other than natural persons when writing their steaming turds of gun bills. There is no official guidance, so standard legal terminology apples.

You can of course place assets into trusts, or make them assets of your corporation, or whatever, but under current law, a private transfer BGC would be required. You can speed things up for things like F1 SBRs by having the trust purchase the lower instead of you buying it, then having to pay for a private transfer BGC when you want to put the lower into your trust.


I tried searching for this but couldn't come up with anything. Don't frequent this sub forum often (maybe I should) and digging through the long list of "Form 1 question" threads and such grew tiresome. I apologize if this is a repost (it probably is).

I purchased a lower with the intent of building an SBR with a form 1 on a trust. I was filling out the eforms today and got to the point where I need to upload my trust documents. I was going to slap the lower on the schedule A, scan it in, and upload it. Right as the pen was about to hit the paper, it hit me. Is that legal? Can I transfer my lower to my trust due to our "new" laws? Is there a way to facilitate transferring a title 1 firearm to a trust in Colorado?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[cfortune]

Does a 4473 accommodate the trust purchasing the item? I just tried looking that up and of course the response is "Why would you do that? Just transfer the item to the trust after you buy it". Must be nice living in a free state...

[kidicarus13]

Background check is needed unless you purchased the lower prior to 07/01/13 and then of course the lower was probably transferred from you to trust prior to the law going into effect.

[cfortune]

Just for shits and giggles, I might try and transfer it to my trust tomorrow at Gander. The look on the clerk's face when I say "I need to transfer this receiver to this stack of papers" is probably going to be worth recording.

[Jeff350]

OP, who initially set up your trust? NFATrustGuy did mine and when I asked this same question he provided me a form to fill out and submit when I did the 4473. Basically saying the lower was being purchased by the trust.

When I did the transfer, the shop had never done a transfer for a trust before but didn't give me a hard time. I just gave them the form from NFATrustGuy, signed the 4473 "as trustee", and told them to keep the form with the 4473.

[cfortune]

OP, who initially set up your trust? NFATrustGuy did mine and when I asked this same question he provided me a form to fill out and submit when I did the 4473. Basically saying the lower was being purchased by the trust.

When I did the transfer, the shop had never done a transfer for a trust before but didn't give me a hard time. I just gave them the form from NFATrustGuy, signed the 4473 "as trustee", and told them to keep the form with the 4473.

Good to know. He did my trust and I left him a VM a while ago to see what the options were.

[asmo]

Does a 4473 accommodate the trust purchasing the item? I just tried looking that up and of course the response is "Why would you do that? Just transfer the item to the trust after you buy it". Must be nice living in a free state...

Absolutely it does. Section A, Question 1.

When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership, or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign Section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity and (B) the name and address of that business entity.

I am still a big fan of the NFA trust having its own bank account. Makes things *sooo* much easier and there is never a question about what entity owns what.

[Great-Kazoo]

I tried searching for this but couldn't come up with anything. Don't frequent this sub forum often (maybe I should) and digging through the long list of "Form 1 question" threads and such grew tiresome. I apologize if this is a repost (it probably is).

I purchased a lower with the intent of building an SBR with a form 1 on a trust. I was filling out the eforms today and got to the point where I need to upload my trust documents. I was going to slap the lower on the schedule A, scan it in, and upload it. Right as the pen was about to hit the paper, it hit me. Is that legal? Can I transfer my lower to my trust due to our "new" laws? Is there a way to facilitate transferring a title 1 firearm to a trust in Colorado?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Are you talking about your schedule of assets? If so i don't put anything on there, except the $10 bill serial number, till approved.

[cfortune]

Are you talking about your schedule of assets? If so i don't put anything on there, except the $10 bill serial number, till approved.
I am talking about the revised schedule A. I know you don't have to put it on now but I imagine it will be equally, if not more painful to do after the fact.

[Jeff350]

Are you talking about your schedule of assets? If so i don't put anything on there, except the $10 bill serial number, till approved.

I would think the trust needs to own the lower before submitting the Form 1 to make it an SBR. Otherwise once the Form 1 is approved the trust would be making a SBR out of a firearm it doesn't own.

If it wasn't for our ridiculous laws you would just transfer the stripped lower from yourself to the trust before submitting the Form 1.

That's how I'm doing it, not saying it's right. Hopefully NFATrustGuy can jump in on this one.

[Great-Kazoo]

I am talking about the revised schedule A. I know you don't have to put it on now but I imagine it will be equally, if not more painful to do after the fact.

Since they now do a BGC and charge you the $10 i, would consider it transferred to your trust at that point in time. Ah the legalities and loop holes of a poorly thought out and implemented law.

[Circuits]

I would think the trust needs to own the lower before submitting the Form 1 to make it an SBR. Otherwise once the Form 1 is approved the trust would be making a SBR out of a firearm it doesn't own.
Nope, because it's a making, the SBR could be machined from scratch or whittled out of hickory or made from an existing lower that the trust doesn't own yet and might not have been manufactured yet at the time the Form 1 is submitted.

However, if making from an existing lower it is generally easier to do with one you have in hand already, if only to reuse the serial number.

[brutal]

I am talking about the revised schedule A. I know you don't have to put it on now but I imagine it will be equally, if not more painful to do after the fact.

I'm sure NFATrustGuy will be more specific and clear but here's my understanding.

An existing personal asset (lower) is transferred to the trust using the supplied ASSIGNMENT TO TRUST. Post 7-1-2013 this will require a BGC for all trustee and co-trustees. You then sign and date the Assignment and add it to Schedule A.

A newly purchased item intended for Form4 or Form1 should be purchased by the trust, the BGC completed by any trustee/co-trustee and then added to the Schedule A upon receipt. That means pre-SBR lowers go on right away, Suppressors go on only after you get the Form4 back, complete the BGC, and take possession. After a Form1 stamp is received, the lower listed on the Schedule A is then noted as "SBR"

[NFATrustGuy]

Sorry I've been tardy in responding today. It's been a busy week. I received CFortune's voicemail earlier today. I'll give you a call back tomorrow to make sure you're squared away.

Brutal's post #15 is on the money.

Moving a lower from your personal collection to the Trust is a transfer. The transfer will require a background check. CRS 18-12-112(1)(b) mandates that a background check is required for the Trustee and any co-Trustee named on the Trust. [NOTE: These are the terms that are applicable to MY Trusts. Somebody else might use different terms for Trustees.]

CRS 18-12-112(2)(a thru d) describes how the gun dealer should handle the background check.

Once the lower is safely and legally in the Trust, THEN submit the Form 1 application.

Yes it's a dumb law. Yes, it's silly to do a background check on yourself as Trustee when yourself as yourself already owns the lower. Laws written by liberals make no more sense than the liberals themselves. You shouldn't really be surprised.

For my Trusts, once the background check is approved, you should add the lower to the Revised Schedule A and date it as of the date the background check was approved. The revised Schedule A will include the XX Dollar Bill and the new Lower. You should also use the "Assignment to Trust" form to formally document the transfer. While a written record of the transfer to the Trust isn't absolutely required, it's a great paper trail to show what happened and when (keep reading for more on this concept). When the Form 1 is approved, use a new Revised Schedule A and include the Lower as an SBR. You'll have the XX Dollar Bill and an SBR on your Revised Schedule A. Date the last Revised Schedule A as of the date you received your approved Form 1. Keep all the old Schedule A versions as a historical record of when you did what. The idea is that if you die, somebody will come along and be able to understand exactly what you did and when.

One slightly editorial note:

I spoke to a gun shop earlier this week and was disappointed to hear that they were encouraging people to blow off the requirement of a background check for Trustees. If you blow off the background check, you are breaking the law and should be prepared to suffer the consequences should some bureaucrat decide he/she wants to make an example of you.

[driver]

Since the appointment and resignation of co-trustees is simple would it be allowed to just have them resign and then have a bgc done on yourself and reappoint them the next calendar day?

[Gunner]

I'll need to tag this for later and see how this all works out. I'm wanting to do the same thing

[ray1970]

Almost seems easier to just buy a factory built SBR and call it a day.

[Great-Kazoo]

Almost seems easier to just buy a factory built SBR and call it a day.

Only if it's on the shelf. Anything firearm i buy the trust is the owner, since 7/13.

[Circuits]

Since the appointment and resignation of co-trustees is simple would it be allowed to just have them resign and then have a bgc done on yourself and reappoint them the next calendar day?
This would serve no purpose. Under current law, individual background checks are not required for each trustee, just the one picking it up from the dealer or performing the assignment of the asset to the trust.

[driver]

This would serve no purpose. Under current law, individual background checks are not required for each trustee, just the one picking it up from the dealer or performing the assignment of the asset to the trust.



Moving a lower from your personal collection to the Trust is a transfer. The transfer will require a background check. CRS 18-12-112(1)(b) mandates that a background check is required for the Trustee and any co-Trustee named on the Trust. [NOTE: These are the terms that are applicable to MY Trusts. Somebody else might use different terms for Trustees.

It seems if NFATrustGuy wrote the trust that whether you are transferring an item from your collection or from anywhere else (my inference) into the trust everyone (trustee/co-trustees) must have a bgc. That's why I wondered if you could have them resign temporarily to save the fees and hassle.





.

[NFATrustGuy]

This would serve no purpose. Under current law, individual background checks are not required for each trustee, just the one picking it up from the dealer or performing the assignment of the asset to the trust.

This is not correct. The law states:

If a transferee is not a natural person, then each natural person who is authorized by the transferee to possess the firearm after the transfer shall undergo a background check, as described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (1), before taking possession of the firearm.

In the terms of my Trust, each Trustee and co-Trustee is authorized to possess firearms held in the Trust. As such, each of them need a background check.

The key words in the law are "possess the firearm AFTER the transfer." It does not say "at the time of transfer."

[Circuits]

Right you are. Being a dealer, who hasn't wanted to do any private party transfers, I've never had to deal with any aspect of the private firearms transfer law - just dealer to trust transferees in NFA contexts so far. Way to go, dims!


This is not correct. The law states:

If a transferee is not a natural person, then each natural person who is authorized by the transferee to possess the firearm after the transfer shall undergo a background check, as described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (1), before taking possession of the firearm.

In the terms of my Trust, each Trustee and co-Trustee is authorized to possess firearms held in the Trust. As such, each of them need a background check.

The key words in the law are "possess the firearm AFTER the transfer." It does not say "at the time of transfer."

[Alpha2]

NFAtrustguy, we still need to talk about the episode with the CBI re: co-trustee addition...

[XC700116]

This is not correct. The law states:

If a transferee is not a natural person, then each natural person who is authorized by the transferee to possess the firearm after the transfer shall undergo a background check, as described in paragraph (a) of this subsection (1), before taking possession of the firearm.

In the terms of my Trust, each Trustee and co-Trustee is authorized to possess firearms held in the Trust. As such, each of them need a background check.

The key words in the law are "possess the firearm AFTER the transfer." It does not say "at the time of transfer."

So, in my case, there's only myself listed on my trust, if at some future date I add someone, they then have to have a BGC for all the trust held items????????

[NFATrustGuy]

So, in my case, there's only myself listed on my trust, if at some future date I add someone, they then have to have a BGC for all the trust held items????????

Sorry I missed seeing this until now.

Yes. Anyone added as a Trustee or Co-Trustee would need a background check before they are allowed access to the Trust's firearms. Note that Colorado's definition of "firearm" does not include suppressors.

NOTE: A background check is NOT required on BACKUP Trustees because they don't have any present day right to possess or even have access to the Trust's assets. Their rights and responsibilities are contingent on you dying or becoming disabled.

The Trustee, co-Trustee and Backup Trustee terms I'm using apply to my form of NFA Trust provided to my clients. Other attorneys might use different terms or have different provisions in their Trusts that *do* give other people access to the Trust's assets. For those of you who aren't my clients, please check with the attorney who prepared your Trust for more specific instructions.

[NFATrustGuy]

NFAtrustguy, we still need to talk about the episode with the CBI re: co-trustee addition...

I'll give you a call tomorrow.

[cfortune]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I had some stuff come up over the weekend that didn't allow me to do anything with this. Standard weekday work takes care of the remainder of my time. NFATrustGuy, thanks for chiming in and the VM. I think I'm set on what I need to do now. My fault for not thinking of it prior to purchasing the lower.

I'll respond back once I get the thing transferred over to my trust to let any interested party know how it went.

[cfortune]

Was bored today and called the ATF field office in Colorado. Person on the phone was like "uhhhhh. I don't think I've ever been asked that". Then she looked around for a bit and said she would call me back. I was in a meeting when she called but she left a voicemail (glad I didn't answer) stating all I need to do, even in Colorado, is add the item to my trust like you would prior to the BGC laws.

Give me a minute and I'll try and download the voicemail and upload it to youtube or something.

[cfortune]

HLdZ3h7O83Y

[asmo]

ATF sound bite

That is awesome! We need to push that out to every FFL in Colorado.

Now for fun. Call back next week, get a different person, and see if you get a different answer.

[Alpha2]

Okay, I called CBI today and said I wanted to discuss specific questions addressing the recent lib-conceived/passed/re-affirmed laws...but before they could reply, my phone started to smoke and emit sparks in a most distressing manner, I hung up before an untoward incident occurred.

Or, maybe I dreamed that last night...

[kidicarus13]

HLdZ3h7O83Y
I want to bottle that and save it!

[NFATrustGuy]

Wow.

I guess I really kicked the hornet's next when I pointed out what the law actually says. Did NONE of these people read the law before they passed it? [That was a rhetorical question, btw. I'm sure all the politicians were concerned with was the sound bite and being able to claim that they voted in favor of protecting the children by stomping all over the rights of a bunch of "right wing extremists."]

The lady from the ATF doesn't have the authority to alter the law. It'd be a great exhibit if a person was ever charged with violating the law, but...

The other stuff she says about making sure your estate planning documents mention the Trust and that the firearm is in the Trust is absolutely and completely WRONG!

I'm quickly finding myself in a position where people are yelling and angry with ME because I pointed out what the law says. Keep in mind that (a) I didn't make the law; and (b) I don't agree with the law.

If and when someone is actually prosecuted for violating the law, it will be a life-changing experience for everyone involved. I am not a criminal defense attorney and I am not in a position to provide a free legal defense for anyone charged with a crime. All I can do is point out the black and white of what is required by the law and advise my clients to follow the law.

If the CBI doesn't know what to tell FFL's in regards to following the law, then there's absolutely no way I'll be able to do it, either.

A transfer from individual ownership to ownership by the Trust is a change of ownership because a Trust is a separate and distinct legal entity. If you own your car outright and you want your car held in a Living Trust created for estate planning purposes, you'd have to re-title your car in the name of the Trust. ….Because the Trust is a separate legal entity. When you replace "car" with the word "firearm" the same logic applies. Because it's a transfer of a FIREARM and because Colorado has some really stupid laws, a background check is required.

That's it. Period. Do what you want, but don't blame me if you get in trouble if you choose to ignore my advice.

[kidicarus13]

Do what you want, but don't blame me if you get in trouble if you choose to ignore my advice.

Sound advice. It's not like I'd trust my freedom to an unidentified voice message but I liked hearing it all the same.

[Great-Kazoo]

Wow.

I guess I really kicked the hornet's next when I pointed out what the law actually says. Did NONE of these people read the law before they passed it? [That was a rhetorical question, btw. I'm sure all the politicians were concerned with was the sound bite and being able to claim that they voted in favor of protecting the children by stomping all over the rights of a bunch of "right wing extremists."]

The lady from the ATF doesn't have the authority to alter the law. It'd be a great exhibit if a person was ever charged with violating the law, but...

The other stuff she says about making sure your estate planning documents mention the Trust and that the firearm is in the Trust is absolutely and completely WRONG!

I'm quickly finding myself in a position where people are yelling and angry with ME because I pointed out what the law says. Keep in mind that (a) I didn't make the law; and (b) I don't agree with the law.

If and when someone is actually prosecuted for violating the law, it will be a life-changing experience for everyone involved. I am not a criminal defense attorney and I am not in a position to provide a free legal defense for anyone charged with a crime. All I can do is point out the black and white of what is required by the law and advise my clients to follow the law.

If the CBI doesn't know what to tell FFL's in regards to following the law, then there's absolutely no way I'll be able to do it, either.

A transfer from individual ownership to ownership by the Trust is a change of ownership because a Trust is a separate and distinct legal entity. If you own your car outright and you want your car held in a Living Trust created for estate planning purposes, you'd have to re-title your car in the name of the Trust. ….Because the Trust is a separate legal entity. When you replace "car" with the word "firearm" the same logic applies. Because it's a transfer of a FIREARM and because Colorado has some really stupid laws, a background check is required.

That's it. Period. Do what you want, but don't blame me if you get in trouble if you choose to ignore my advice.

You've already informed board members numerous times how your trust is done and what's required BY LAW, when it comes to transferring from point A to their trust. Getting mad at you for pointing out the Law is uncalled for. Granted the most accessible is usually where one's anger is vented. Sorry to hear this.

[brutal]

Wow.

I guess I really kicked the hornet's next when I pointed out what the law actually says. Did NONE of these people read the law before they passed it? [That was a rhetorical question, btw. I'm sure all the politicians were concerned with was the sound bite and being able to claim that they voted in favor of protecting the children by stomping all over the rights of a bunch of "right wing extremists."]

The lady from the ATF doesn't have the authority to alter the law. It'd be a great exhibit if a person was ever charged with violating the law, but...

The other stuff she says about making sure your estate planning documents mention the Trust and that the firearm is in the Trust is absolutely and completely WRONG!

I'm quickly finding myself in a position where people are yelling and angry with ME because I pointed out what the law says. Keep in mind that (a) I didn't make the law; and (b) I don't agree with the law.

If and when someone is actually prosecuted for violating the law, it will be a life-changing experience for everyone involved. I am not a criminal defense attorney and I am not in a position to provide a free legal defense for anyone charged with a crime. All I can do is point out the black and white of what is required by the law and advise my clients to follow the law.

If the CBI doesn't know what to tell FFL's in regards to following the law, then there's absolutely no way I'll be able to do it, either.

A transfer from individual ownership to ownership by the Trust is a change of ownership because a Trust is a separate and distinct legal entity. If you own your car outright and you want your car held in a Living Trust created for estate planning purposes, you'd have to re-title your car in the name of the Trust. ….Because the Trust is a separate legal entity. When you replace "car" with the word "firearm" the same logic applies. Because it's a transfer of a FIREARM and because Colorado has some really stupid laws, a background check is required.

That's it. Period. Do what you want, but don't blame me if you get in trouble if you choose to ignore my advice.

Keep on keepin' on Rodney. You are the man and I'll always defer to your better judgement.

If it's not on ATF letterhead, it's not worth a damn thing anyway.

[driver]

Thanks Rodney, I paid for your service and advice for a reason and I will follow it.

[cfortune]

Thanks Rodney, I paid for your service and advice for a reason and I will follow it.
Agreed. I posted that clip because I found it funny that was their answer. I definitely don't consider it a green light for adding a firearm and you shouldn't either.

[driver]

Thanks for posting it.It was interesting to hear and for a moment I imagined we lived in a free state again. Hopefully after Tuesday.......

[Rooskibar03]

So let's just say someone hadn't read this thread and applied for a Form 1 on a lower that wasn't part of the trust at the time?

is there is a way to amend the Form 1 app or cancel it a reapply once said lower has been transferred into the trust?

[Great-Kazoo]

So let's just say someone hadn't read this thread and applied for a Form 1 on a lower that wasn't part of the trust at the time?

is there is a way to amend the Form 1 app or cancel it a reapply once said lower has been transferred into the trust?

If you transfer it to something that is a different name than what the Stamp was approved for, pay the $200 again. I have X not on the trust, IMO there's no reason to transfer to the trust and pay the ATF $200 per. If it's a concern what happens to them when you die. A Form 5 is done so next of kin can sell OR keep them w/out the need to pay , Again.
Why pay twice ?

Now if you F1 is still pending you should be able to cancel and reapply as the trust. The refund process takes 60+ days, based on the last refund i received.

[NFATrustGuy]

So let's just say someone hadn't read this thread and applied for a Form 1 on a lower that wasn't part of the trust at the time?

is there is a way to amend the Form 1 app or cancel it a reapply once said lower has been transferred into the trust?

Shoot me a PM with your phone number and I'll give you a call tomorrow. I don't care if you're my client or not (I can never keep everybody's screen names straight). There may be a way we can save this without having you withdraw the application, but I need to discuss the specifics of your situation.

Rod