My quarantine hell.

[bobbyfairbanks]

http://www.dallasnews.com/ebola/headlines/20141025-uta-grad-isolated-at-new-jersey-hospital-as-part-of-ebola-quarantine.ece

I don't know where these medical folks get this idea that they get to go play with Ebola and then there irresponsible asses can just come back to the states and run freely. With have a constitution and they have all the rights as every one else............until they start infringing on others. Well I would say that since they could spread a pandemic with a70% chance of death that they have waived there rights. Don't want a quarantine don't go to Africa. Be responsible. Kinda like dont go to work if your sick. No one wants you there and no one wants ebola here.

[Irving]

Boo Hoo

[theGinsue]

I love this attitude. It's what's going to eventually cause ebola to run rampant across the U.S. if we don't keep enough people in power with the "let's just be extra cautious; shall we?" attitude.

Lemme see. You voluntarily go into a community known to possess one of the deadliest diseases ever - one with a 70+% mortality rate, you work directly with those who are infected, you watch person after person die horribly from this disease & you think you should be able to just waltz back into the U.S. like you've been treating a case of the hiccups?

"But, I'm a medical PROFESSIONAL. I observed every precaution and there is no possible way I could have become infected."

Tombstone reads:

Dr. Ebola Mary
Saved a dozen in Africa
Killed everyone in America

There are many who feel that the quarantine should be in whichever foreign country these people were potentially exposed. Anyone who's been overseas knows the potential for half-assing this sort of thing, or corruption negating it completely. No, if we want to ensure it's done correctly, we have to do it ourselves.

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I love this attitude. It's what's going to eventually cause ebola to run rampant across the U.S. if we don't keep enough people in power with the "let's just be extra cautious; shall we?" attitude.

But, I'm a medical PROFESSIONAL.
I observed every precaution and there is no possible way I could have become infected.

Tombstone reads:

Dr. Ebola Mary
Saved a dozen in Africa
Killed everyone in America



lol.


Good post.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Dr ebola Mary should have been post title.

[spqrzilla]

She works for the CDC, the whole thing is political posturing from Obama admin.

[Great-Kazoo]

Now she knows how some gun owners are SCARED about over reaching .gov laws.

[tim-adams]

yeah, there are reasonable precautions that should be taken for those who have been "in close" to active ebola..

[sellersm]

Not so sure, might want to look a little deeper at the quarantine "law": http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10/24/new-york-new-jersey-set-up-mandatory-quarantine-requirement-amid-ebola-threat/


The woman was not showing any symptoms of Ebola, or illness of any kind, when she landed at Newark, CBS 2’s Jessica Schneider reported. But Friday evening, she developed a fever after being placed in isolation at University Hospital in Newark, according to the New Jersey Department of Health.

And Cuomo and Christie said it no longer matters if someone is showing symptoms or not.

And this view on this situation: http://www.naturalnews.com/047398_government_quarantines_Ebola_outbreak_medic al_isolation.html

I don't want to contract Ebola any more than anyone else, but this kind of thing can get out of hand really fast. How is it any different than any of the other violating laws that are on the books? "But, it's for the children". "But, it's for the safety of the whole nation". "but..."

There's a fine line, and I believe, for the record (since it's posted here) that NY and NJ have officially crossed it.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I guess you missed the part where patients can falsely test negative when they're not showing symptoms yet or the part where the most recent doctor in NY wasn't showing symptoms until after he'd gone bowling and traveled via the subway. In fact, I believe he self-quarantined once he was symptomatic but whether that was sufficient is whether you believe the CDC really knows enough about the disease to say it is not communicable until the patient is symptomatic. Quarantine has been used historically for exactly these kinds of cases to contain potential infections and prevent their spread into a pandemic.

NY and NJ crossed all kinds of lines of stupidity years and years ago; NYC just reinforced that stupidity by electing diBlasio but I don't see an issue with quarantining high risk personnel for 3-6 weeks before they enter the general populace.

[BushMasterBoy]

Ebola in NY is a 100% success!

[theGinsue]

Sellersm, we usually agree on things, but I think we're of differing opinions here.

The only way I'd say a quarantine isn't necessary for anyone who's been in a known ebola area, or had known ebola patient exposure within the last 3 weeks (or whatever a realistic gestation time is) is if we prohibited all persons coming into the U.S. at all who meet this criteria.

Ebola is nothing to be trifled with. Since we know potential carriers can't be trusted to do the right thing to protect others, someone (in this case .gov entities) need to take action. Someone willingly taking the risk to contract ebola (even though they've used "precautions") should not translate to all of the U.S. accepting the risk unknowingly.

One, just one infected person, roaming freely in society can set off a pandemic that can't be controlled without huge infringements on citizens rights & potentially millions of deaths.

[spqrzilla]

Be aware that the power of the state to quarantine those exposed to a dangerous, communicable disease has been long, long established in the US and British common law. This isn't a new idea, its a very old idea.

[sabot_round]

Ginsue, I'm with you on this!!

Something needs to be done about these nincompoops that keep bringing "the gift that keeps on giving", and think that they can roam around "unknowingly" infecting the rest of the community. This is total BS and it needs to be dealt with!! I think that this is one of the few things that the FEDGOV need to deal with, and they are failing at it.

If this was a mass shooting with dozens of people dead, I'm pretty sure that the media and the FEDGOV will be all over it. But right now, I really don't hear the care in their voices!!

SR

[Big E3]

Does any body beside me fear the possibility that Ebola could be carried by a person that shows no symptoms? Much like Typhoid Mary carried but never appeared sick. I could see a scenario where someone comes back from Africa carrying the virus but never having a fever or any other sign that would get them quarantined. This person then proceeds to infect large numbers of people before anybody figures it out and it's to late to get it under control.

[Great-Kazoo]

Does any body beside me fear the possibility that Ebola could be carried by a person that shows no symptoms? Much like Typhoid Mary carried but never appeared sick. I could see a scenario where someone comes back from Africa carrying the virus but never having a fever or any other sign that would get them quarantined. This person then proceeds to infect large numbers of people before anybody figures it out and it's to late to get it under control.

It is happening, while not in large numbers yet, with every medical person who arrives from W.Africa. Duncan was the first non-med person, this character in NY who felt bowling and riding mass transit was the right thing to do. Instead of taking precautions during the kn own incubation period.

[OtterbatHellcat]

I mentioned in another thread....it was only a matter of time.

It's okay though, you can't catch it just 'cause you're in the same car/train/plane/bus/elevator/bank/convenience store/gas station/public restroom/ HOSPITAL////etc.etc.

:)

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

Something needs to be done about these nincompoops that keep bringing "the gift that keeps on giving", and think that they can roam around "unknowingly" infecting the rest of the community. This is total BS and it needs to be dealt with!! I think that this is one of the few things that the FEDGOV need to deal with, and they are failing at it.


Indeed. Read up on what happens if you have tuberculosis. In Denver. In 2014.

[bobbyfairbanks]

Ebola in NY is a 100% success!

bro thats almost most a wet dream.

[Great-Kazoo]

My dr office gave me a form to fill out. Have I ever been to Africa , just returned from w. Africa, running a fever , blood when I cough etc.

[Aloha_Shooter]

My dr office gave me a form to fill out. Have I ever been to Africa , just returned from w. Africa, running a fever , blood when I cough etc.

Hmmm ... mine is going to have fun with me if they have anything similar. I wonder, is Namibia considered south Africa or west Africa? Maybe the fact that I was there 2 flipping years ago might make the point moot?

[Justin]

Does any body beside me fear the possibility that Ebola could be carried by a person that shows no symptoms? Much like Typhoid Mary carried but never appeared sick. I could see a scenario where someone comes back from Africa carrying the virus but never having a fever or any other sign that would get them quarantined. This person then proceeds to infect large numbers of people before anybody figures it out and it's to late to get it under control.

While I suppose it's possible for there to be asymptomatic human carriers of Ebola, it's probably not very likely.

I'd be far more concerned that the disease might get a foot hold in a non-human carrier species like dogs, cats, mice, etc.

If that happens, then it's possible we'd never be rid of it, because there would be a continuous reservoir of the disease out in the wild.

[Aloha_Shooter]

While I suppose it's possible for there to be asymptomatic human carriers of Ebola, it's probably not very likely.

Carriers ala Typhoid Mary? I agree, probably not very likely, however what you're missing is that the people may have the disease and be asymptomatic when tested or allowed to travel then become symptomatic later. Given the severity of the outcome, I'm not so sure I'm willing to trust the CDC's claim that the disease is absolutely not transmissible until the victim is symptomatic and that translates to risk. Biological processes tend not to be binary in nature -- there's no magic switch from non-communicable to communicable.

As we progress into cold-and-flu season, I think quarantine for high risk individuals is both justified and smart -- the fact there's probably a statistical correlation with opposition from the Obama Administration and the wisdom of the policy just adds weight toward quarantine policies IMO.

[hollohas]

This is a hard one for me. On one side this person didn't break any laws and is an American citizen. If she didn't break any laws, the government is infringing on her freedom if they forcibly quarantine her.

On the other side, I believe it is the fedgov responsibility to protect our borders and that includes keeping infectious diseases out.

Non-citizens? I have no problem with the FedGov quarantining any that are potential carriers. They don't get the same rights as citizens.

Is this person stupid? Hell yeah. Selfish? Yup. Criminal? Nope, at least not yet. If this person turns out to be infected and infects others, then yes, that turns criminal. Should the Gov be able to lock her up because her stupidity MIGHT hurt others? I think my opinion is falling on the side of "no" on this one. A little too Minority Report for me... even though I fully agree that it's attitudes like this person's that will be responsible for any possible future outbreak on our soil.

IMO, the proper way to handle this is to shutdown commercial flights. Then we don't have to worry about infringing on the finer points of quarantine vs freedom. If American doctors want to fly to Africa to help...cool. They can charter flights but only after they sign a legal document agreeing to be quarantined on their return.

[sellersm]

This is a hard one for me. On one side this person didn't break any laws and is an American citizen. If she didn't break any laws, the government is infringing on her freedom if they forcibly quarantine her.

On the other side, I believe it is the fedgov responsibility to protect our borders and that includes keeping infectious diseases out.

Non-citizens? I have no problem with the FedGov quarantining any that are potential carriers. They don't get the same rights as citizens.

Is this person stupid? Hell yeah. Selfish? Yup. Criminal? Nope, at least not yet. If this person turns out to be infected and infects others, then yes, that turns criminal. Should the Gov be able to lock her up because her stupidity MIGHT hurt others? I think my opinion is falling on the side of "no" on this one. A little too Minority Report for me... even though I fully agree that it's attitudes like this person's that will be responsible for any possible future outbreak on our soil.

IMO, the proper way to handle this is to shutdown commercial flights. Then we don't have to worry about infringing on the finer points of quarantine vs freedom. If American doctors want to fly to Africa to help...cool. They can charter flights but only after they sign a legal document agreeing to be quarantined on their return.

^This.

[mcantar18c]

This is a hard one for me. On one side this person didn't break any laws and is an American citizen. If she didn't break any laws, the government is infringing on her freedom if they forcibly quarantine her.

Reckless endangerment maybe?

Realistically, there is no way to stop somebody that is intent on getting into the US.

[hollohas]

Reckless endangerment maybe?


Perhaps. May be hard to argue that after the negative test though.





Realistically, there is no way to stop somebody that is intent on getting into the US.

At our present border security level, agreed.

[TFOGGER]

Reckless endangerment maybe?

Realistically, there is no way to stop somebody that is intent on getting into the US.

20 million illegal aliens agree!

[clodhopper]

I would assume these health workers are signing some sort of work agreement before going overseas. Seeing they are going to ebola central to work directly with ebola patients, I am surprised that some sort of quarantine requirement would be a part of the work agreement. In that case, they would have agreed to it before going. Has nothing to do with citizenship.

Now the disclaimer. I have no idea how new age, idealistic, whatever, the organization is that these people are signing up to assist. I thought it was Docs-without-borders, but I don't know much about them either. Maybe no agreement is executed as a part of the work?

[hollohas]

I would assume these health workers are signing some sort of work agreement before going overseas. Seeing they are going to ebola central to work directly with ebola patients, I am surprised that some sort of quarantine requirement would be a part of the work agreement. In that case, they would have agreed to it before going. Has nothing to do with citizenship.



I'm sure they do sign some sort of liability form with their employers, however their employer doesn't have any legal authority to forcibly quarantine them even if they do sign something.

The employer could not allow them to come to work for 21 days. Or require them to get tests before returning to work. Etc. But an employer can not force someone to stay home or in a isolation ward at a hospital in quarantine.

[Aloha_Shooter]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/10/27/constitutional-challenge-to-quarantine-unlikely-to-succeed/


While the Supreme Court has long held quarantines to be constitutional, it has not ruled directly on the scope of permissible quarantines. However, in the famous case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/case.html), the Court did uphold a blanket mandatory vaccination law, under which resisters were put in jail. The principle here is the same as with quarantine – that one’s normal rights to bodily integrity are suspended by a general and serious public need, especially of an epidemiological variety.



One case upholding a quarantine has facts that look strikingly like Hickox’s. In U.S. ex rel Siegel v. Shinnick, 219 F.Supp. 789 (E.D. NY 1963), the plaintiff was confined for 14 days on her return from a “smallpox infected area” abroad, despite a lack of any evidence of direct exposure or symptoms. The court upheld the action, noting:


[ The ] judgment required is that of a public health officer and not of a lawyer used to insist on positive evidence to support action; their task is to measure risk to the public and to seek for what can reassure and, not finding it, to proceed reasonably to make the public health secure. They deal in a terrible context and the consequences of mistaken indulgence can be irretrievably tragic. To supercede their judgment there must be a reliable showing of error.

[hollohas]

I'm aware of past case law and court rulings regarding quarantine and know it's "legal". But most people on this board disagree with at least a couple of the court's "it's constitutional" rulings and this is one I disagree with. IMO, the fundamentals of liberty and freedom do not allow the government to detain citizens that "might" get others sick.

Edited to add...I do believe the fedgov can refuse to let dangerous persons across the border including citizens. This gal should have been refused entry unless she agreed to be quarantined. But allowing her in and then forcing quarantine after the fact? I don't agree...

[sellersm]

I just don't believe that this will end well. When you give the gubment an inch...

[Aloha_Shooter]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As has been said, "the Constitution is not a suicide pact." Someone else's freedom to travel is not absolute, especially when it poses a genuine risk to other citizens' rights to life. The risk that she could be asymptomatic and test negative and still be infected was demonstrated with Dr. Spencer who was asymptomatic when he traveled and then confirmed positive after he had gone bowling and rode the subway.

Quarantine (as opposed to isolation) is a reasonable temporary restriction of liberties on a limited population definable by objective criteria. Stupid bleeding heart redhead does NOT have an absolute right to expose others to a risk she accepted in the face of the current disease parameters. I don't have an issue with the recent solution of having her go home via private transport as long as I'm not having to pay for her stupidity or stubbornness but what Christie and Cuomo were dealing with was trying to prevent pandemic.

ADD:


[ a ] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.

[Irving]

While I suppose it's possible for there to be asymptomatic human carriers of Ebola, it's probably not very likely.

I'd be far more concerned that the disease might get a foot hold in a non-human carrier species like dogs, cats, mice, etc.

If that happens, then it's possible we'd never be rid of it, because there would be a continuous reservoir of the disease out in the wild.

A few of the cases in prior outbreaks were apparently determined to be asymptomatic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ebola_outbreaks

[spqrzilla]

The power of states to quarantine people with communicable disease has been established in US and British common law for centuries. There is no Constitutional Right that is violated by such quarantine.

[tim-adams]

The power of states to quarantine people with communicable disease has been established in US and British common law for centuries. There is no Constitutional Right that is violated by such quarantine.

yeah its been understood for a long time, that quarantine for the good of the public is a government power.

[Irving]

Can the States quarantine soldiers at my home during peace time?

[davsel]

Turns out, she works for the CDC, not docs without borders as reported.
As usual, it's all politics.

Meanwhile, soldiers will all be quarantined after being forced to visit lovely Africa.

[hollohas]

Something I need to get straight because I have read conflicting stories.

Was this nurse forced into quarantine after she was already home or was it upon her arrival that she was ushered into quarantine?

For me this is an important distinction. If they came and picked her up at her home without her showing symptoms, I have a problem with that. But if they sent her into quarantine as a condition of gaining entry back into the states then cool.

[Great-Kazoo]

Turns out, she works for the CDC, not docs without borders as reported.
As usual, it's all politics.

Meanwhile, soldiers will all be quarantined after being forced to visit lovely Africa.

Rumor AND few other boards say she's a D and Prefers same gender.



Something I need to get straight because I have read conflicting stories.

Was this nurse forced into quarantine after she was already home or was it upon her arrival that she was ushered into quarantine?

For me this is an important distinction. If they came and picked her up at her home without her showing symptoms, I have a problem with that. But if they sent her into quarantine as a condition of gaining entry back into the states then cool.

NJSP grabbed her from a gas station as she was refueling. They had a BOLO on her.































JK.
However she was quarantined after returning, not off the plane.

[Irving]

Her article said it started as she was checking in with Customs. I don't believe she went anywhere besides straight from the airport into quarantine.

[tim-adams]

its reasonable...

if you have not read the effects of this plague, its way way bad, a little time to read and check your facebook in order to protect the public.. whatever

[hollohas]

Well, we'd been discussing how the handle people that find their way here and who may have had exposure to ebola, citizen or not.

The WH has been discussing how to actively IMPORT Non-citizens here for treatment. Here the "sensitive" memo that basically says we have an obligation to bring Non-citizens here and treat them...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2014/10/28/state-department-memo-on-ebola-policies/

[mcantar18c]

So what are the legal ramifications of someone with Ebola neglecting to take any precautions and infecting someone else, and it results in their death?

[Aloha_Shooter]

Well, we'd been discussing how the handle people that find their way here and who may have had exposure to ebola, citizen or not.

The WH has been discussing how to actively IMPORT Non-citizens here for treatment. Here the "sensitive" memo that basically says we have an obligation to bring Non-citizens here and treat them...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2014/10/28/state-department-memo-on-ebola-policies/

I wish I could point at that and scream that it's foil hat BS because of the header typo but it reads like something State would write. I understand why the government and government employees can't be sued for just doing their jobs but anyone involved in authoring that memo without flatout protesting it as trash is a freaking traitor in my book. This administration has been nothing short of astounding when it comes to the sheer quantity of political appointees who should be prosecuted for misuse of official powers and out-and-out treason or when it comes to the number and extent of governmental agencies they have corrupted.

Institutions that used to be stalwarts of the American Way have become political extensions of OFA and 1/3 of the voting populace can't or won't see it.

[Bang]

[Irving]

I don't see what the big deal is? Fresh accounts of active stateside Ebola were declining. Something had to be done.

[Great-Kazoo]

So what are the legal ramifications of someone with Ebola neglecting to take any precautions and infecting someone else, and it results in their death?

Same as someone with HIV KNOWINGLY having unprotected sex. IIRC a few "working folk" have been jailed for it, one of them from the metro area.

[tim-adams]

ok so I accept that certain government entities have the right of quarantine (not all)..

they still have a mandate to do it in a manner consistent with upholding our rights as citizens.
not sure I would call a crappy tent in a parking lot surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards meeting that standard..

understand the need, but like all government goat roping.. its all about execution of the quarantine that will get you blasted

[Aloha_Shooter]

ok so I accept that certain government entities have the right of quarantine (not all)..

they still have a mandate to do it in a manner consistent with upholding our rights as citizens.
not sure I would call a crappy tent in a parking lot surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards meeting that standard..

understand the need, but like all government goat roping.. its all about execution of the quarantine that will get you blasted

I don't believe the quarantine was a crappy tent in a parking lot -- that was probably the initial screening point for high risk personnel and it was probably set up that way because 1) it was done fast, 2) the state felt they had to do SOMETHING in light of the administration's unwillingness to embargo commercial travel from the affected areas, 3) it was meant to be temporary for the existing crisis, and 4) they wanted something they could disassemble and disinfect quickly rather than have to clear out and sanitize a whole wing of an airport terminal.

IIRC, she was ensconced in a sanitized quarantined room with access to the amenities for her 2-3 days "in hell".

The only problems I have with the situation are her whinging and that the governors bowed to pressure and let out of quarantine early.

[Great-Kazoo]

I don't believe the quarantine was a crappy tent in a parking lot -- that was probably the initial screening point for high risk personnel and it was probably set up that way because 1) it was done fast, 2) the state felt they had to do SOMETHING in light of the administration's unwillingness to embargo commercial travel from the affected areas, 3) it was meant to be temporary for the existing crisis, and 4) they wanted something they could disassemble and disinfect quickly rather than have to clear out and sanitize a whole wing of an airport terminal.

IIRC, she was ensconced in a sanitized quarantined room with access to the amenities for her 2-3 days "in hell".

The only problems I have with the situation are her whinging and that the governors bowed to POLITICS and let out of quarantine early.

FIFY.
IF we had a CIC who took a position instead of waffling around, I have met with the infected and while sharing beers came up with a plan type shit. Working with CDC before first infected health care was returned back to the states, the governors would not have taken the steps they did. This whole deal while serious, has been kicked around politically like an unwanted kid.

[68Charger]

typical Demoncrat, Create 100's of laws, but they don't pertain to me...

[Great-Kazoo]

BAM BEECHES BE SLAPPED DOWN. Maine governor says negotiations with kaci have broke down and he will enforce the law to it's Full Authority.. Seems she felt it was ok to go bike riding. Oh how the D elite feel they are above everyone else.

Fuk her.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/talks-ebola-nurse-kaci-hickox-fail-governor-full/story?id=26569596

Negotiations with nurse Kaci Hickox (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ebola-america-nurse-maine-health-officials-violate-civil/story?id=26542668), who refuses to be quarantined after treating Ebola patients in West Africa, have "failed" and the governor of Maine will now "exercise the full extent of his authority," according to a statement from the governor's office.

"Maine statutes provide robust authority to the state to use legal measures to address threats to public health," the statement said.


I'm disappointed the alledged RUMOR of her being same geneder friiendly was not true. THE INTERNET LIED TO ME. Who can i sue ?

[Great-Kazoo]

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag16/dvuswaz/imagejpg1_zps3ac170d3.jpg

[68Charger]

Kazoo, did you take a picture of a computer screen with facebook up?

That's now how this works, that's not how any of this works...[Coffee]

[Great-Kazoo]

Kazoo, did you take a picture of a computer screen with facebook up?

That's now how this works, that's not how any of this works...[Coffee]

Nope, gleeped it off another gun sight. SAY NO TO FACEPLANT.