To all the Gurus on this site, I need some Education on night vision.

[SideShow Bob]

Howdy all,
I am needing some education on night vision binoculars & monoculars.
Specifically the ones in the $400 - $500 range and the 4 - 6X magnification.
Are they worth the the cost, or junk ?

Anyone with hands on experience with specific brands and models please weigh in and edgimecate me.

[Great-Kazoo]

For looking at your backyard they're ok, providing there is some illumination. Anything else, no. I'm doing some research and realize for a quality unit it's $3500 -$ 5K . For the use it would have i cannot justify it at this time. Hell that's about 1/5th of what we owe on the house.

[RYAN50BMG]

Whoever said "You get what you pay for." was talking about night vision. Anything less than Gen 3 is a waste of money.

[APEXgunparts]

Howdy all,
I am needing some education on night vision binoculars & monoculars.
Specifically the ones in the $400 - $500 range and the 4 - 6X magnification.
Are they worth the the cost, or junk ?

Anyone with hands on experience with specific brands and models please weigh in and edgimecate me.

APEX has ATN Night Spirits in stock.
These are ex-SOC contractor 3X viewers that were used overseas.
The Night Spirits are the best selling unit, and myself and the people that work here have had good experiences with them.
They are 2nd Generation viewers.
You are welcome to call my SALES office with any questions about the units we sell.
719-481-2050
Here is a link that will show the night vision devices we have in stock at this time:
https://apexgunparts.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=night+vision&x=0&y=0

We also have one 3rd Generation US Night Vision PVS-14, it is also ex-SOC issue.

Richard

[MarkCO]

I have been fortunate enough to use cutting edge FLIR optics as well as the current Mil issued gear on down to the Bushnell night watchman. It all depends on the purpose.

If you are looking for positive ID, then you either have to be rich, or use white light. Even the $30K thermal and IR systems do not provide enough resolution to be able to tell one man from another at any range past where a light would not work better. Our military has ways of ID built into their gear, but a bad guy or a cop in your backyard does not. Even Gen2 NV is iffy for target ID.

Now, I have hog and predator hunted out to 200 yards with Gen1 Monoculars and an IR laser on the gun. You can get set up for about $400-$500 and there is enough resolution to tell the difference between a deer, a hog and a dog out to about 150 yards. I do prefer that hunting with a good optic and a Laser Genertics laser though. Target ID on people with Gen1 inside is iffy at any distance and I would not suggest it. Gen2 and Gen3 can be used at distance we typically think about for a normal SD encounter, but then again, light is a better solution in most cases. Gen4 works fine for target ID if properly adjusted, out to about 200 yards. Past that, you really need the current mil issue gear.

[Mtn.man]

Govliquidations.

[buckshotbarlow]

i'd do flir over nv anyday...of course, i don't own either...

I saw a gizmo for an iphone 5 5s that will do flir, but you might not want to have any sony info on it...
http://www.wired.com/2014/08/a-review-of-the-iphone-infrared-camera-the-flir-one/

[sniper7]

ATN is junk. Confirmed over and over on arfcom.

i just bought a Zeiss .mil surplus one and it is great quality. Equivalent to today's gen 2 tubes. At 100 yards in starlight I can see the rings and bullseye on a black/green target for sighting in. Had a 1inch 4 shot group with my coyote gun.

i could also differentiate between a buck and a doe deer at ~200 yards.

i also ordered an IR illuminator and just waiting for it to get in. Hoping to see a big difference with that.

ive looked through gen3 tubes. They are still surplus units that have been refurbished. Obviously better, but a whole lot more money.

check out TNVC and check out the M845 MK4. Supposed to be a great scope with lots of good feedback. Still $1900 though and very close to gen3 .but a gen3 pvs4 with run you $2450. Gen 2 PVS-4 is $1500.

[SideShow Bob]

I have been fortunate enough to use cutting edge FLIR optics as well as the current Mil issued gear on down to the Bushnell night watchman. It all depends on the purpose.

If you are looking for positive ID, then you either have to be rich, or use white light. Even the $30K thermal and IR systems do not provide enough resolution to be able to tell one man from another at any range past where a light would not work better. Our military has ways of ID built into their gear, but a bad guy or a cop in your backyard does not. Even Gen2 NV is iffy for target ID.

Now, I have hog and predator hunted out to 200 yards with Gen1 Monoculars and an IR laser on the gun. You can get set up for about $400-$500 and there is enough resolution to tell the difference between a deer, a hog and a dog out to about 150 yards. I do prefer that hunting with a good optic and a Laser Genertics laser though. Target ID on people with Gen1 inside is iffy at any distance and I would not suggest it. Gen2 and Gen3 can be used at distance we typically think about for a normal SD encounter, but then again, light is a better solution in most cases. Gen4 works fine for target ID if properly adjusted, out to about 200 yards. Past that, you really need the current mil issue gear.


The reason I am asking is for a gift to an older gentleman that lives off grid on 20 + acres down in the SW desert in what would be considered a half step above a shanty, using a first generation solar / generator system ( cobbled together ) for what little power needs he has.
His eye sight, especially at night is suffering from age, but his shooting eye is still tin can sharp at 20 yards with a handgun in daylight. And he is needing something to see into the darkness when something sets his dogs to barking. Be it varmints of the four or two legged kind. Something hand held, that is why I was asking about NV binoculars and monoculars, and the price range was the top of what is affordable to the family.

[Great-Kazoo]

ATN is junk. Confirmed over and over on arfcom.

i just bought a Zeiss .mil surplus one and it is great quality. Equivalent to today's gen 2 tubes. At 100 yards in starlight I can see the rings and bullseye on a black/green target for sighting in. Had a 1inch 4 shot group with my coyote gun.

i could also differentiate between a buck and a doe deer at ~200 yards.

i also ordered an IR illuminator and just waiting for it to get in. Hoping to see a big difference with that.

ive looked through gen3 tubes. They are still surplus units that have been refurbished. Obviously better, but a whole lot more money.

check out TNVC and check out the M845 MK4. Supposed to be a great scope with lots of good feedback. Still $1900 though and very close to gen3 .but a gen3 pvs4 with run you $2450. Gen 2 PVS-4 is $1500.

Victor is GTG. Mod Armory down the springs is GTG too. APEX has good product for the price point.

[james_bond_007]

I have worked with some of the suppliers (units and tubes), on the engineering side for NV (not thermal).
One of the suppliers is getting out of the NV business, as they laid off almost all their engineers.
They are keeping a skeleton crew to deal with military contract repairs and to fulfill those existing contracts with equipment.
Basically, they are still building the Gen2,2+,3 stuff, but not doing any R&D on new equipment.

I've been trying to weasel a 'scratch and dent' out of them at a lower cost....no luck so far, as most of my contacts have been let go.

They know I'm looking for something, so the one thing main they emphasized to me is to beware of USED equipment.
Seems the tubes have a life expectancy.
Things like a) lots of use, b) accidentally leaving them on, and c) using them is bright light (for those that are not gated), seem to wear them out.
They also do not have a "run-time" indicator (something they may incorporate in the future). So you never know what kind of 'time' is on the tube when you buy it.
Some places are taking the tubes out of beat-up/heavily used units, and putting them in new 'housings'. These are being called 'refurbished'...as they actually are.
The point is, just because the unit looks new and shiny, it may have a tube with a lot of hours on it inside.
Thus, if you drop some serious cash on a used Gen 2, 2+, or 3 unit, it may reach EOL sooner than expected, and need a tube replacement. (The tube is the most expensive part).

Another thing is to expect the tubes (even from new units) to have a blemish or two on them. Apparently, the 'perfect' ones go to the military and the 'blems' go to the civilian market.
Blems are typically one or more small spots that show up black, as they are areas that are 'broke' and not amplified.

Please don't think I'm saying to NOT buy a used unit...but just be prepared if it fizzles early or be sure to get a descent warranty.
I'm also not knocking used equipment. I'm just suggesting you know what the issues are and weigh the pluses and minus before you make a purchase, rather than finding out afterwards.

In a way, it is like buying a used car. Looks good today, but the tranny MAY die tomorrow...and there are typically no or no significant warranties.
So it is a risk vs reward thing.

Also, some of the IR LED flashlights with good narrow-beam reflectors are nice for longer range illumination.

..that's about all I can add, and it is 2nd hand info, at that. But I trust my sources.

If anyone wants to contradict the above data, be my guest. I won't argue...

[james_bond_007]

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has worked with the monocular adapters.
That is, the adapters that let you mount something like a PVS-14 in front of a scope.

[If this belongs in another thread...let me know, as I don't want to hi-jack this one.]

However, I was not sure if the OP wanted NV or NV w/rifle or both.
Things like the PVS-22 clip-ons mount AFTER the scope (from the viewer's perspective) and are probably a better choice for NV hunting, but can't really be used as just NV, like a monocular.

Since NV ispricey, I've been looking at ways to let me do both NV w/o rifle and NV on a scope, even if neither is optimum.
I'm certainly not going to be able to afford the optimum for BOTH, so I'm 'good' with leaning towards NV w/o a rifle, and 'adapting' it.

[smchop]

I went out with Mod Armory on a NV demo. Best thing and worst thing I ever did. Thermal is fun and has a place, but as said before, doesn't replace NV. We got to use PVS, Fixed power optics, and clip ons in the 5 digit dollar marks. Way cool stuff. I ended up with two, one is a Gen III Omni autogated PVS 14, the other is a fixed 6x magnified optic. I haven't used the PVS a lot, but the fixed optic is a blast, easily engaging targets at 500 meters +. My PVS is flawless and I paid for that, My D760 has a few spots but nothing in zone 1 and I don't even notice them when shooting. This is one spot you have got to pay to play.

[smchop]

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has worked with the monocular adapters.
That is, the adapters that let you mount something like a PVS-14 in front of a scope.

I run one from TNVC on my PVS 14. Running a Comp M4 and a magnifier. All I have to do is remove the magnifier, base stays on the rifle, and lock on my PVS. Its a slick set up and I like it quit a bit.

[sniper7]

As James Bond said, the tubes are going to be used surplus on most PVS-4, zeiss, anything military grade.

from what I have researched, they have about a 1000 hr half life on the tubes. Some better, some worse. the tube will still work, it just isn't as good as brand new. Even then, that would be using your scope for an hour a night every night for 3 years, then the tube would be at half life.

[james_bond_007]

As James Bond said, the tubes are going to be used surplus on most PVS-4, zeiss, anything military grade.

from what I have researched, they have about a 1000 hr half life on the tubes. Some better, some worse. the tube will still work, it just isn't as good as brand new. Even then, that would be using your scope for an hour a night every night for 3 years, then the tube would be at half life.

I agree with that, Sniper7. But I'm not sure if the OP was asking for NV only (as he mentions monoculars and binoculars) or NV for a rifle.
If the latter, I agree with your 1hr/night for 3 years.
If the guy wants to sit on his porch every night for a few hours and look at the wildlife, that 3 years could whittle down to a year or less.
...and both these situations assume a NEW 1000 hr Gen 1 tube.

The military tends to just turn the tube on and leave it, until they are done.
Could be multiple hrs/night, on a regular basis OR the tube could have been used only once for an hour.
THAT, to me, is the tough part of buying used NV.

So we need to know more about the application, before we (either you or I) can speculate on the life.

Also, the different 'gen' tubes have different life expectancies. Something like...
(All times are approx)
Gen 1 - 1000 hrs
Gen 2 - 2000 hrs
Gen 2+ - 2500 hrs
Gen 3 - 10,000+ hrs

I believe the Fero Z-51(just a guess) you likely have is a Gen 1 tube.
...and I'll bet it is a TON of FUN [Beer]

[Guylee]

Get some PVS 31's. They're pretty cheap.

[MarkCO]

And he is needing something to see into the darkness when something sets his dogs to barking. Be it varmints of the four or two legged kind. Something hand held, that is why I was asking about NV binoculars and monoculars, and the price range was the top of what is affordable to the family.

If he is not using it for positive ID and just taking a looksie and then would go to a firearm with a WML for a "final engagement", and given the parameters, I think you would be fine with a Bushnell. I use mine for that same purpose.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?usersearchquery=night+vision&itemsperpage=24&dimensionids=4294846258

I have the 2x Nightwatch and it is workable out to about 150 yards or so. Mounted to an AR with an IR laser, I can hold a 3" group at POA at 100 yards. Not my first choice for anything, but it is a better solution than nothing. The one thing you would want to make sure he knows is that is won't work through glass or screens. They also need to be protected from full light so a little education is in order.

If you want to take a look through one, you are more than welcome to stop by and take a peek through mine. We have dogs, coyotes and rabbits out back.

[APEXgunparts]

The reason I am asking is for a gift to an older gentleman that lives off grid on 20 + acres down in the SW desert in what would be considered a half step above a shanty, using a first generation solar / generator system ( cobbled together ) for what little power needs he has.
His eye sight, especially at night is suffering from age, but his shooting eye is still tin can sharp at 20 yards with a handgun in daylight. And he is needing something to see into the darkness when something sets his dogs to barking. Be it varmints of the four or two legged kind. Something hand held, that is why I was asking about NV binoculars and monoculars, and the price range was the top of what is affordable to the family.

Here is a thread on AR15.Com that covers the used ex-SOC night vision units extensively:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/427794_Bringback_ATN_Gen_2__scopes_and_goggles.htm l

Based on what you are describing as your requirements the Night Spirit 2 looks like a good fit.
It is hand held, 2nd Generation, doesn't weigh 5 pounds (like older surplus units), doesn't emit a high pitch whine (like some older surplus units) has a good image, runs on either AA or SF123 batteries, meets your price point (under $500) and if you are in Colorado Springs call my SALES office and make arrangements to come look at a few.
719-481-2050

I am also running a sale on our NVG-7 units for the Holidays.

https://www.apexgunparts.com/images/Collectibles/09JUL14_NVG7-709877_SMALL02.jpg

https://apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/4528

Richard

[Wulf202]

The only thing in your price range worth a damn is the surplus Zeiss

If you want to test run one pm me

[sellersm]

What about digital NV? I seem to be reading fairly positive comments about them, seems they may fit the bill for the OP's stated purpose...?