Gun Law "Unconstitutional": US 6th Circuit

[Bailey Guns]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/19/us-appeals-court-deems-gun-law-unconstitutional/

Interesting read. I can hear the antis now...

[blm28]

I'm guessing this will go to the supreme court.

[Hound]

It seems like a good example. Everyone has "moments". Divorce, death, job loss, etc can put stress on people to an extreme. If he did not act on it, it was years ago and he has been cleared....... This is a good call.

[KestrelBike]

I'm guessing this will go to the supreme court.

^^^ my first thought as well. In the case of the guy who was committed for a month some 40 years ago, if he's had no recurrences of mental disorder (if he even truly had such, to begin with) then why should he be banned for life? But then whats the difference between him and someone else who is committed for a month, then wants to be certified 6mo later? There's no fool-proof way to determine mental competence.

[Great-Kazoo]

^^^ my first thought as well. In the case of the guy who was committed for a month some 40 years ago, if he's had no recurrences of mental disorder (if he even truly had such, to begin with) then why should he be banned for life? But then whats the difference between him and someone else who is committed for a month, then wants to be certified 6mo later? There's no fool-proof way to determine mental competence.

it doesn't play with an anti-gun train of thought.
NOW if it was a FELON who'd been incarcerated for sexual assault, or murder. They'd be screaming on the SC steps, EVERYONE DESERVES A SECOND CHANCE, complete with full color posters

[Dave_L]

it doesn't play with an anti-gun train of thought.
NOW if it was a FELON who'd been incarcerated for sexual assault, or murder. They'd be screaming on the SC steps, EVERYONE DESERVES A SECOND CHANCE, complete with full color posters

Kind of like this?

http://kdvr.com/2014/12/19/james-holmes-parents-speak-out-say-son-is-not-a-monster-should-not-be-executed/

[Great-Kazoo]

Kind of like this?

http://kdvr.com/2014/12/19/james-holmes-parents-speak-out-say-son-is-not-a-monster-should-not-be-executed/

Only one of many, only one. He goes in to a medical facility if Judged insane, like John Hinckley. His parents and many fans will push to have daytime release in to public. [facepalm]

[rondog]

Kind of like this?

http://kdvr.com/2014/12/19/james-holmes-parents-speak-out-say-son-is-not-a-monster-should-not-be-executed/
Wahhh. My heart pumps purple piss for their poor, ill son. Too goddamn bad that someone in that theater didn't counterattack him that night and either break his neck or splatter his brains all over the screen. Only truth in their statement is "there shouldn't be a trial". Yep, only a long-overdue funeral for the turd.

[tim-adams]

I liked what Marcus Weaver said in the article.. What message do we send if the price for this behavior is not death?

your right Kazoo, in 20 years when the rage and pain have abated, they will say he's a changed man, he deserves a second chance...
I FUCKING DON"T CARE!!!
He stopped 12 hearts plus a unborn baby from ever having a chance.
execution is the only justice

[tim-adams]

On the topic of the judges ruling:

yes I agree with it, yes it will got the SCOTUS for ruling
the state of NY has started seizing weapons from people who are on a list they say are mentally unwell. (they have NOT shared how they formed this list with anyone) expect a court challenge very soon

my wife and I discuss 2nd amendment and gun rights, this specific part of gun rights is very difficult, and we have not come to a resalable solution either.

Should people battling mental health issues have firearms.. NO, in most cases they lack the judgement/ability to use them justly and within the confines of the law.
but
where does the impaired line lay?
who has permission to declare a person is over that line?
what justification/evidence is required?
how do you dispose/ transfer those firearms (simple conversion is stealing and with firearms it could range into the 10's of thousands of dollars)
where is the line that someone can again own firearms?
who decides on that?
what is a reasonable time for deciding this (because I know in some states they will just string this out for years and years, because they can)

someone is depressed because of a divorce or loss of job?? are you going to bar them forever? that's not just..
someone has chronic issues with schizophrenia, and bipolar, and refuses to take their medication and have been institutionalized for years, I don't think them owning a firearm serves the public safety at this point.

writing laws to handle this far away exceeds most peoples ability to look into the future and develop a just system.. they have made them, mental health professionals just don't use them, for fear it will brand their patient as crazy in a data base somewhere in DC that will never EVER go away..

this is not an easy problem.

[SuperiorDG]

I would bet this guy is GTG with having a gun. The reason it is in the courts is because of the precedent it may set. Do we judge this case based on the man or precedent?

[Hound]

Well summed up......


On the topic of the judges ruling:

yes I agree with it, yes it will got the SCOTUS for ruling
the state of NY has started seizing weapons from people who are on a list they say are mentally unwell. (they have NOT shared how they formed this list with anyone) expect a court challenge very soon

my wife and I discuss 2nd amendment and gun rights, this specific part of gun rights is very difficult, and we have not come to a resalable solution either.

Should people battling mental health issues have firearms.. NO, in most cases they lack the judgement/ability to use them justly and within the confines of the law.
but
where does the impaired line lay?
who has permission to declare a person is over that line?
what justification/evidence is required?
how do you dispose/ transfer those firearms (simple conversion is stealing and with firearms it could range into the 10's of thousands of dollars)
where is the line that someone can again own firearms?
who decides on that?
what is a reasonable time for deciding this (because I know in some states they will just string this out for years and years, because they can)

someone is depressed because of a divorce or loss of job?? are you going to bar them forever? that's not just..
someone has chronic issues with schizophrenia, and bipolar, and refuses to take their medication and have been institutionalized for years, I don't think them owning a firearm serves the public safety at this point.

writing laws to handle this far away exceeds most peoples ability to look into the future and develop a just system.. they have made them, mental health professionals just don't use them, for fear it will brand their patient as crazy in a data base somewhere in DC that will never EVER go away..

this is not an easy problem.

[Great-Kazoo]

Well summed up......

I agree. but don't tell anyone ;)

[Dave_L]

So here's another thought...if someone is deemed unsafe to own a firearm, do we bar them from buying alcohol, driving a car, operating heavy machinery, having a set of kitchen knives? All of those items in the hands of someone "unstable" can be just as dangerous. Just put them in a straight jacket and tuck them away, right?

It's a VERY hard situation we have on our hands.

[tim-adams]

So here's another thought...if someone is deemed unsafe to own a firearm, do we bar them from buying alcohol, driving a car, operating heavy machinery, having a set of kitchen knives? All of those items in the hands of someone "unstable" can be just as dangerous. Just put them in a straight jacket and tuck them away, right?

It's a VERY hard situation we have on our hands.
bingo!!!

who decides?
what is the line?
what is rights are removed?
when are they returned?

in a nation that cherishes our liberty's and freedoms, this is a hard pill to swallow, but I must agree people in the depths of mental illness should be managed better.
that said, I also know that some left leaning shit bag would love to say ok everyone who loves guns are crazy, so you are not fit to own them..

no easy questions, but i will say that alcoholism is a mental illness and it kills more people every year than guns or violent crime

[Duman]

Don't confuse 'justice' with the 'law', or the implentation thereof.

[Eric P]

So here's another thought...if someone is deemed unsafe to own a firearm, do we bar them from buying alcohol, driving a car, operating heavy machinery, having a set of kitchen knives? All of those items in the hands of someone "unstable" can be just as dangerous. Just put them in a straight jacket and tuck them away, right?

It's a VERY hard situation we have on our hands.

Some will say a "well regulated blah blah blah..." allows the government to restrict who can bear arms. I would love to see the US S. C. to strip that power away from the governments, because I see no where in the constitution that rights can be restricted to any citizen. Released felons should have the same right as any other person.

[ZERO THEORY]

I really hope this is a landmark decision. I think of two people: the average Joe who goes through a death in the family/divorce/gets sober/whatever who is struggling and decides to get inpatient help for a while. I also think of the soldier who is buried by his survivor's guilt and shellshock. And both of these individuals avoid seeking help because they're afraid that their rights are going to be stripped away for the rest of their lives. So instead they DO end up killing themselves or losing control of their lives because getting help was a scarier proposition than trying to endure their suffering.

We all get knocked down in life. How is it at all right to keep someone down? I'm all for keeping firearms out of the hands of paranoid schizophrenics, the manic depressive, etc. But I literally don't think I know anyone who hasn't either gone through a depressive spell or had to overcome some sort of anxiety.

[ben4372]

So here's another thought...if someone is deemed unsafe to own a firearm, do we bar them from buying alcohol, driving a car, operating heavy machinery, having a set of kitchen knives? All of those items in the hands of someone "unstable" can be just as dangerous. Just put them in a straight jacket and tuck them away, right?

It's a VERY hard situation we have on our hands. You nailed it. You could also add children to the mix. I'd venture to say nearly everyone could be excluded from owning guns if investigated by the right people.

[FirstShotSteel]

I think the ultimate question is "what's the cost?" The cost of liberty as it relates to these particular possibilities. We all know that we can't bullet proof society... there will always be instance's of individuals who loose contact with sanity, but to believe that we can deny someone their god given right to self perseveration based on an "experts" opinion of sanity is a slippery slope that I don't think we should embrace. What if some day the political winds dictate that anyone who believes in an invisible God is certifiable insane. Giving the power of life and liberty to some authority or expert that can be corrupted by others flies in the face of the founding of this nation. The total number of American citizens who loose their life from gun violence pales in comparison to individuals who loose their life from other causes that most would consider acceptable. I think the "cost" in this case is unacceptable. Thomas Sewell said back in the 80's that he can defeat any liberal argument with three questions... "as compared to what?...."what's the cost?.. and Can you give me any hard data to support your assertion?..
I think this "insane" line doesn't survive these three questions....

[Great-Kazoo]

Some will say a "well regulated blah blah blah..." allows the government to restrict who can bear arms. I would love to see the US S. C. to strip that power away from the governments, because I see no where in the constitution that rights can be restricted to any citizen. Released felons should have the same right as any other person.

I'm going to go with non-violent felons. There's some folks get out of the greybar hotel, who worked the system for freedom. I personally know 1 or 5 on the streets, have no business being on them. Let alone breathing our air. I worked with. He'll of a nice guy (aren't they all) spare time he liked cutting folks up, just because.

[Big John]

I think the ultimate question is "what's the cost?" The cost of liberty as it relates to these particular possibilities. We all know that we can't bullet proof society... there will always be instance's of individuals who loose contact with sanity, but to believe that we can deny someone their god given right to self perseveration based on an "experts" opinion of sanity is a slippery slope that I don't think we should embrace. What if some day the political winds dictate that anyone who believes in an invisible God is certifiable insane. Giving the power of life and liberty to some authority or expert that can be corrupted by others flies in the face of the founding of this nation. The total number of American citizens who loose their life from gun violence pales in comparison to individuals who loose their life from other causes that most would consider acceptable. I think the "cost" in this case is unacceptable. Thomas Sewell said back in the 80's that he can defeat any liberal argument with three questions... "as compared to what?...."what's the cost?.. and Can you give me any hard data to support your assertion?..
I think this "insane" line doesn't survive these three questions....^Yup!^ We're at the same point as the people being scrutinized. If we walk the slippery slope in hope of doing what many perceive as "right", I have no doubt that in our current political climate it will bite us in the ass.

[BREATHER]

Mental illness's huh... How many guys or women on this site that own AR's smoke weed ???? There is ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY DISORDER, it is in the DSM (Diagnostic Statistical Manual) and it is a Mental Illness. What if someone puts that on you. Alcoholics fall under the same diagnosis, again, what if that happens to you.