View Full Version : ATF Sig brace updated ruling.
Now trying to say if used shouldered, must have NFA stamp or else!>!>!!
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/robert-farago/atf-dont-use-sig-brace-as-shoulder-stock-without-nfa-stamp/
SideShow Bob
12-26-2014, 12:46
This isn't the same article as this one is it ?
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/141879-End-of-SIG-Brace-for-AR15-Pistol
SuperiorDG
12-26-2014, 13:09
I don't think they are "trying" to say it, they said it. I heard about this a while ago, surprised it took this long to get posted here.
68Charger
12-26-2014, 13:15
This isn't the same article as this one is it ?
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/141879-End-of-SIG-Brace-for-AR15-Pistol
does not appear to be... that was was related to a "ruling" on a PG shotgun...
This appears to be a case of "ask a different bureaucrat, get a different answer"
I am waiting for BATFE to provide an opinion on: How many angels can dance on the end of an AR receiver extension before it becomes a weapon for Mass destruction.
If too many angels are put onto a SIG brace, will the weapon become overly weighted toward the rear or will the enlightened presence of angels actually cause the AR to tip forward.
Come BATFE, the free citizens of the nation depend upon your wisdom for legal compliance with the "common sense" nature of the NFA. [Sarcasm2]
stoner01
12-26-2014, 14:24
SMH
Rooskibar03
12-26-2014, 14:35
Figures I just finally bought one. Might have to just submit for a stamp and be done with it.
Again, what difference does it make how a GUN is designed to be fired or operated? We need to somehow kill he various definitions of a GUN. If a hand GUN can have a barrel less than 16 inches, why not a shoulder fired GUN?
Its not like a shoulder fired GUN is more concealable or dangerous than a hand GUN.
F-ing bureaucrats and their stupid confusing double talk rules that make everyone a criminal if you read them a certain way.
KestrelBike
12-26-2014, 14:37
Figures I just finally bought one. Might have to just submit for a stamp and be done with it.
The only thing that keeps me from going stamp-crazy is that I move all the time. Realllly looking forward to the day when I can finally settle down in one state. Should take about 3 more years : \
(disclaimer: I have the $200 NFA stamp for an SBR and have for many years now)
I have read countless posts on various online gun forums by people that were 'sure the ATF will nip this in the bud' when it comes to the Sig brace. There have been numerous posts by those who have jumped through the NFA hoops to get their SBR stamp that are belittling the Sig brace and essentially hoping that they will be deemed illegal. With friends like those, who needs enemies?!
I cannot help but think the incessant letter writing to the NFA branch of ATF to get yet one more clarification is by people that have their SBR stamp and are miffed that they jumped the hoops but others have seen fit not to.
If this letter had not been issued, I'm quite certain that someone else would see the necessity of writing their letter to ascertain "is it OK if I buy a Sig brace, even though it's OK that my neighbor bought one?".
Maybe we can now focus on the legality of shouldering a Glock 19, if we push it, maybe that can be deemed an NFA item when positioned 'just-so' on the body...
STFU just doesn't work, does it?! [Mad]
hurley842002
12-26-2014, 14:53
(disclaimer: I have the $200 NFA stamp for an SBR and have for many years now)
I have read countless posts on various online gun forums by people that were 'sure the ATF will nip this in the bud' when it comes to the Sig brace. There have been numerous posts by those who have jumped through the NFA hoops to get their SBR stamp that are belittling the Sig brace and essentially hoping that they will be deemed illegal. With friends like those, who needs enemies?!
I cannot help but think the incessant letter writing to the NFA branch of ATF to get yet one more clarification is by people that have their SBR stamp and are miffed that they jumped the hoops but others have seen fit not to.
If this letter had not been issued, I'm quite certain that someone else would see the necessity of writing their letter to ascertain "is it OK if I buy a Sig brace, even though it's OK that my neighbor bought one?".
Maybe we can now focus on the legality of shouldering a Glock 19, if we push it, maybe that can be deemed an NFA item when positioned 'just-so' on the body...
STFU just doesn't work, does it?! [Mad]
I don't have a sig brace or an SBR stamp, but good post!
Great-Kazoo
12-26-2014, 15:14
cool, what we all wanted most for Christmas...1 more thread about the sigbrace.
2, i'm sure before end of the year SOMEONE will post it AGAIN. Probably the same person inquiring about mag kits, AGAIN.
Great-Kazoo
12-26-2014, 15:20
(disclaimer: I have the $200 NFA stamp for an SBR and have for many years now)
I have read countless posts on various online gun forums by people that were 'sure the ATF will nip this in the bud' when it comes to the Sig brace. There have been numerous posts by those who have jumped through the NFA hoops to get their SBR stamp that are belittling the Sig brace and essentially hoping that they will be deemed illegal. With friends like those, who needs enemies?!
I cannot help but think the incessant letter writing to the NFA branch of ATF to get yet one more clarification is by people that have their SBR stamp and are miffed that they jumped the hoops but others have seen fit not to.
If this letter had not been issued, I'm quite certain that someone else would see the necessity of writing their letter to ascertain "is it OK if I buy a Sig brace, even though it's OK that my neighbor bought one?".
Maybe we can now focus on the legality of shouldering a Glock 19, if we push it, maybe that can be deemed an NFA item when positioned 'just-so' on the body...
STFU just doesn't work, does it?! [Mad]
Most definitely . I'm reading a lengthy write up about doing a Form 1 can. Without fail there's 1/2 doz people asking WELL IF SO & SO CAN, WHY CAN'T I ? OR the ass actually posting a pic of their project on their gun saying JUST WAITING ON MY F1 APPROVAL . They are the same ones, who post a pic of their AR pistol WITH the sig brace on the buffer, w/out it being on their arm. [facepalm] While a grey area for some. One less item shown on line is one less item drawing attention.
Fuk why not show pic of your homemade DIAS inquiring if it's legal to build your own. AFTER THE FACT.
What happened to DADT??
Lol. Gotta love anything to do with the government. My condolences to any of you are government employees.
If actual use of an item factors into the equation of how an item is classified, maybe I should write a letter too. Perhaps if I installed an actual stock onto an AR pistol with the sole purpose of adding weight to the rear of the weapon to make it balance better with no intention of using said part to fire it from the shoulder they would send me a letter saying it is OK to do so?
[facepalm]
kidicarus13
12-26-2014, 15:37
. They are the same ones, who post a pic of their AR pistol WITH the sig brace on the buffer, w/out it being on their arm. [facepalm]?
What are you talking about? https://www.ar-15.co/threads/129295-Arm-Braces-amp-Pistols-Legal/page2
Big John
12-26-2014, 18:22
Most definitely . I'm reading a lengthy write up about doing a Form 1 can. Without fail there's 1/2 doz people asking WELL IF SO & SO CAN, WHY CAN'T I ? OR the ass actually posting a pic of their project on their gun saying JUST WAITING ON MY F1 APPROVAL . They are the same ones, who post a pic of their AR pistol WITH the sig brace on the buffer, w/out it being on their arm. [facepalm] While a grey area for some. One less item shown on line is one less item drawing attention.
Fuk why not show pic of your homemade DIAS inquiring if it's legal to build your own. AFTER THE FACT.
What happened to DADT??The thread you speak of is getting to be a real crack up. A few of those guys are so afraid of the ATF that they are asking some really stupid shit.
Some people spend wayyy too much time on the interwebs with images of black SUV's in their head worrying about their Sig Brace slipping off their wrist and landing on their shoulder.
Ahh crap... I just noticed that this thread is in NFA Items. The SB15'd guns I have are now illegal if I hold them the wrong way.[panic]
Tactical Joke
12-29-2014, 17:27
Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.
We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.
The ATF has too much time on its hands.
hurley842002
12-29-2014, 17:44
Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.
We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.
The ATF has too much time on its hands.
Did you not read his disclaimer at the beginning of his comment?
Go to any number of the "other" sights, and you will see the hate for the sig brace from the NFA guys.
Hotchef181818
12-29-2014, 18:22
The title of this thread is very misleading. Please show me the updated "RULING". Please provide some sort of statement from the manufacturer. Anything ??
What you posted is an opinion letter that applies to the person it's addressed to. Furthermore the Atf answered his question correctly in the letter stating that what he wanted to do would in fact be an sbr. "INTENT" was established when his dumbass inked that letter.
Did it occur that it could potentially be fraudulent ? Why did the person hold onto it for almost 2 months, then share?
zimagold
12-29-2014, 18:38
I have been waiting for contradicting letters. This seems to be an expected outcome of events based on the last few years.
I bought a Sig brace a few months back, but returned it and decided to go the stamp route. No hate for the Sig Brace, just not my thing. Will still be keeping a spare pistol lower around for flexibility.
I feel for anyone that cannot go the NFA route. I moved 10 times in the last 10 years and just started collecting stamps this year. I think/hope I wont be moving for a few years.
Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.
We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.
The ATF has too much time on its hands.
Agreed.
Did you not read his disclaimer at the beginning of his comment?
Go to any number of the "other" sights, and you will see the hate for the sig brace from the NFA guys.
My problem with the brace stems from the fact that everyone KNEW they were riding a very thin edge between letter of the law and spirit of the law. To me, this sort of thing generally results in a knee-jerk reaction that ends up costing us more rights in the long run. We're talking about an entity that can seemingly make things illegal with a simple letter so why rattle that cage? Why push it in this way? In the name of all that is holy why in the fuck are people still writing them letters to get clarification on shit? That almost never works out in our favor. I'm of the mindset that this shit should all be legal anyway so unless the ATF states something specifically isn't allowed I operate under the guise that it's legal until stated otherwise. There appears to be an entire other group out there who thinks all of their rights are controlled by the ATF and feel the need to ask for permission in writing which tends to bring attention to something we really don't want attention brought to. Getting these NFA items legalized w/o hoops isn't going to be done with letter writing or pushing the envelope it's going to be done at the voting polls & political establishments. This idea that we're going to enact any positive change by writing letters or trying to gain profit on some legalese is silly. This is my reason for my dislike of the Sig brace. That and it looks like an abortion taped to a rifle. I also dislike 'pistol' AR15's because I think they look silly too so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Why do you assume those of us with SBRs care about the Sig Brace, hatidua? I'm all for it. Some folks live in ban states, or have anti-Constitution CLEOs and I love seeing them able enjoy shorties. Most of us, I'd wager, would love to see the brace continue to make a mockery of the NFA and the ATF, and I'd love even more for my 6 SBR stamps to become completely worthless. Why? Because then I don't have to worry about which upper is on which lower, or making sure I fill out the right paperwork way in advance of any classout of state... All for a weopon that's less lethal than a longer gun, simply because some jackhole politician gets his or her physics education from Hollyweird.
We're divided enough without adding a NFA / Non-NFA division to the mix.
The ATF has too much time on its hands.
Apparently I'm from Boulder and cannot type in a manner that clearly conveys my message to everyone. Some got it, some didn't. That's my mistake, not yours.
My problem with the brace stems from the fact that everyone KNEW they were riding a very thin edge between letter of the law and spirit of the law. To me, this sort of thing generally results in a knee-jerk reaction that ends up costing us more rights in the long run. We're talking about an entity that can seemingly make things illegal with a simple letter so why rattle that cage? Why push it in this way? In the name of all that is holy why in the fuck are people still writing them letters to get clarification on shit? That almost never works out in our favor. I'm of the mindset that this shit should all be legal anyway so unless the ATF states something specifically isn't allowed I operate under the guise that it's legal until stated otherwise. There appears to be an entire other group out there who thinks all of their rights are controlled by the ATF and feel the need to ask for permission in writing which tends to bring attention to something we really don't want attention brought to. Getting these NFA items legalized w/o hoops isn't going to be done with letter writing or pushing the envelope it's going to be done at the voting polls & political establishments. This idea that we're going to enact any positive change by writing letters or trying to gain profit on some legalese is silly. This is my reason for my dislike of the Sig brace. That and it looks like an abortion taped to a rifle. I also dislike 'pistol' AR15's because I think they look silly too so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
This is exactly the stance hatidua already took.
To clear up anything I have typed in this thread so far, I own BOTH a registered SBR as well as a Sig Brace on an AR pistol. I cannot figure why there is so much animosity by those that claim to be 2A supporters for another method of launching lead at a target. This is akin to Purdey shotgun owners not having "any use" for AR-15's because they don't pheasant hunt with them.
Divided, we surely fall.
Why do we have choices? Because it's 'Merica!
Feckless bureaucracy is the enemy of freedom, variety and ingenuity.
I have a dream. That one day the legality of my firearms will not be determined by the position they are held but by their status protected by our Constitution. [Flower]
I cannot figure why there is so much animosity by those that claim to be 2A supporters for another method of launching lead at a target.
Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.
Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.
This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.
And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.
Great-Kazoo
12-30-2014, 00:52
Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.
Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.
This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.
And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.
BRAVO, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
If one changed but a few words in this thread, this could easily be a citizenship debate.
Because humans are strange creatures whose egos sometimes manifest perverse, self-defeating motivations. There are some, having gone through the NFA/SBR process, that seem to develop some sense of ownership in the whole thing. A "If I had to do it, everyone else has to do it" logic. It would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad. To see legions of so called 2A supporters religiously supporting, with their money and compliance, a system designed to eventually strip them of their rights is disheartening. And then to see the venom spewed by them towards other 2A supporters, who look for a different way, is simply unreal. We will fall because of this. Our side is hopelessly divided by infighting over stupid things. Their side is unified with one single goal. And they have the Federal Govt on their side. We do not.
Personally I don't care about the brace itself. As a tool it has limited usefulness, I'd rather have a proper tool, but I did appreciate the symbolism - a spark of legal rebellion against an unconstitutional system. What really should have everyone worried is the ATF's attempt to temporarily reclassify things based on how you use them. That is a vile blueprint for criminal prosecutions of otherwise law abiding gun owners. Use two hands to fire a pistol, you better have a stamp for an intended AOW because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand only. Like to fire your rifle with the stock folded, or from the hip, better have a stamp for the intended misuse because that's not how a rifle is defined. Pull the trigger too fast (by some ATF bureaucrat's arbitrary reasoning) and you obviously intended to build an illegal machine gun regardless of the legal definition of one. It's coming.
This is not about if braces can be shouldered. It's much more that that. It will set a precedent of use-based firearm classification (regardless of legal classification) if there is no resistance. And there will be none - not from the NRA, not the GOA, not from any of us. Hell it seems a good percentage of us gleefully support this precedent because it protects their 'investment' in the system. And at some point in the future, when the conditions are right, this precedent will be expanded to strip us of even more of our 2A rights. It's the latest play towards the final endgame.
And to those who believe the Govt/ATF would leave us alone if we just silently complied with the current rules and quit pushing the limits - wake up. They will keep chipping away and tightening the regulatory noose whether we happily comply or not. Compliance just makes their job easier. I'm sure there were jews who thought they be left alone so long as they silently complied with the Nazis, even as they were being marched to the gas chambers. And no I am not comparing this to The Holocaust. I am simply illustrating that Tyranny is not stemmed with silent compliance. It always ends badly for the compliant.
Well said. Thank you for going to the effort to write that out. MOLON LABE
It appears that BATFE has reversed this ruling.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Barnes-Stabilizing-Brace-Letter-Final-3.21.17.pdf
Or maybe they're just making some clarifications.
Rucker61
04-25-2017, 07:51
Does the SIG arm brace extend and collapse, or do any other arm braces?
Not that I'm aware of. They are secured on the pistol buffer tube by tightening a screw. They can be placed at any point along the tube however.
Rucker61
04-25-2017, 08:17
This part: "If, however, the shooter/possessor takes affirmative steps to configure the device for use as a shoulder-stock – for example, configuring the brace so as to permanently affix it to the end of a buffer tube, (thereby creating a length that has no other purpose than to facilitate its use as a stock), removing the arm-strap or otherwise undermining its ability to be used as a brace – and then in fact shoots the firearm from the shoulder using the accessory as a shoulder stock, that person has objectively “redesigned’ the firearm for the purposes of the NFA. This conclusion is not based up the mere fact that the firearm was fired form the shoulder at some point. Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock – even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder. "
seems to imply that you can shoulder it, occasionally, as long as the arm brace isn't permanently attached in the longest set up, or the arm strap removed, and is still in the original arm brace configuration.
That paragraph is still problematic in its usage of "at the end of the buffer tube". The entire point of an arm brace is leveraging against the wobble of holding it. The only way to effectively do that is to have it as far out as possible -- it's an arm brace, not a wrist brace. Also, most pistol buffer tubes are what... basically as short as a collapsed butt stock on a rifle/carbine, which is not the "firing" position, or shorter.
It's like they have no technological understanding of the things they approve/disapprove from both an ergonomic standpoint and basic science.
Appears they realized they dug themselves into a hole, and are now attempting to dig themselves out.
They won't be able to make any sense until they admit the first letter was stupid and reverse it entirely.
What CavScout said. Permanent attachment is irrelevant as it can always be used as an arm brace, regardless of the position.
Great-Kazoo
04-25-2017, 09:06
That paragraph is still problematic in its usage of "at the end of the buffer tube". The entire point of an arm brace is leveraging against the wobble of holding it. The only way to effectively do that is to have it as far out as possible -- it's an arm brace, not a wrist brace. Also, most pistol buffer tubes are what... basically as short as a collapsed butt stock on a rifle/carbine, which is not the "firing" position, or shorter.
It's like they have no technological understanding of the things they approve/disapprove from both an ergonomic standpoint and basic science.
The major (ok one of the) problems with ATF is there are a few entities withing it.
Technology : comes up with the rulings and decisions based on (yes they still do) letters to them for "Clarification"
Enforcement : The agent on the street.
The problem with the on the street agent is. They have taken it upon them self to "Interpret" the rulings. Recent example is the SDTA Tubes , end caps, what ever, are considered a suppressor. All based on an agents "Interpretation" of what ever law there is.
So sdta shuts down tubes or other related items the feds came down on them for.
Here's the fuster cluck of that. The agents (IMO) had no legal standing to do so. UNLESS there was a recent Tech interpretation / reversal / new directive that has gone public (as with green tip ammo) reviewed it.
Until there is a clear, non reversible ruling, we will never be sure of ones legality when using any firearm. That includes ones state and local LE's. They're the ones who are as unfamiliar with NFA items as anyone. Throw in areas where NFA items (state legal) and any firearm are looked down upon (denver) you have another layer of ignorance.
Not that I'm aware of. They are secured on the pistol buffer tube by tightening a screw. They can be placed at any point along the tube however.
That is the kak shockwave. The sign brace is slip fit
Ive always felt that the $200 tax stamp was worth the piece of mind knowing I wouldn't be subject to "interpretations". I know NFA game still has uninformed LE involved but at least you have paperwork to walk LE through it and show something. Arguing over a braced gun might be a little harder, if the situation ever arose.
Well, then there's the 9 month wait trust or llc maintenance plus paperwork every time you travel across state lines with it or move. Let alone go to states where sbrs are not allowed.
Well, then there's the 9 month wait trust or llc maintenance plus paperwork every time you travel across state lines with it or move. Let alone go to states where sbrs are not allowed.
And I understand the traveling argument. I just dont really travel so that wasn't a concern to me.
Does the SIG arm brace extend and collapse, or do any other arm braces?
The Sig arm brace does not extend or collapse, it is a fixed brace. The KAK is fixed too. I am not aware of any braces that extend or collapse, the only thing I can think of there is the LAW folding adapter.
Gear head tail hook brace is adjustable
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/01/tailhook-pistol-brace-adjustable-lop-folding/amp/
SuperiorDG
04-25-2017, 12:32
Then there is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eol8fvMfENc
The Sig arm brace does not extend or collapse, it is a fixed brace. The KAK is fixed too. I am not aware of any braces that extend or collapse, the only thing I can think of there is the LAW folding adapter.
There are folding brace adaptors the MPX comes to mind.
The thing I don't understand is... why did the ATF approve a device which has some (unnamed) magical length which induces evil status?
Why does it matter what the length of the device is, or even if it goes in an out -- and if it does, why one might choose to leave it extended (particularly when that extended length is at or less than the non-firing position of a standard collapsible stock).
One wonders how competent the ATF really is to determine anything, frankly.
I'd like to see SNL do an ATF skit, where some agent's wife walks in on him with a tranny hooker. The punchline would be, "Honey, I swear I'm not a faggot; her cock wasn't extended!"
(particularly when that extended length is at or less than the non-firing position of a standard collapsible stock).
There's a "non firing position" on a collapsible stock?
Rucker61
04-25-2017, 16:05
There's a "non firing position" on a collapsible stock?
Yours doesn't engage the safety at fully collapsed?
thvigil11
04-25-2017, 16:10
Possible clarification on the issue from TTAG. Of course its still a "I heard it on the internet as far as I'm concerned"
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04/robert-farago/atf-told-sb-tactical-pistol-brace-ryan-cleckner/
(http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04/robert-farago/atf-told-sb-tactical-pistol-brace-ryan-cleckner/)
There's a "non firing position" on a collapsible stock?
It's too short to be used effectively in a collapsed position for me... and I'm short; only when wearing body armor was it ever workable for me. My understanding was always that is its way of collapsing for vehicle storage, etc. Not that it mechanically alters the rifle to not fire when collapsed, but that it's not the standard position due to LOP issues.
Fact of the matter is the ATF doesn't even understand the items it talks about. It makes up things willy-nilly and then reverses itself, as seen here. The FACT is, the shoulder stock is designed to be fired from the shoulder (though presents a LOP problem when doing so in collapsed position) whereas a brace is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. The LOP being longer would actually aid the blade/brace/etc., as it provides more purchase on the arm. That it would then assist people in having a longer LOP if firing from the shoulder doesn't change anything as to design. As far as I'm aware, there is no legally defined length to a pistol buffer tube.
There are folding brace adaptors the MPX comes to mind.
You're right, I was just thinking about AR15s.
Great-Kazoo
04-25-2017, 23:40
As far as I'm aware, there is no legally defined length to a pistol buffer tube.
Another reason to be buying A-2 buffer tubes ;)
The thing I don't understand is...
Why does it matter what the length of the device is, or even if it goes in an out -- and if it does, why one might choose to leave it extended
I'd like to see SNL do an ATF skit
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