View Full Version : Hollywood versus Reality: Running with a handgun?
Kraven251
12-31-2014, 17:14
To preface the question, I have done movement drills with rifles, but have not done much beyond engage and holster, move drills with pistols.
I watched a variety of Hollywood fluff and always noticed folks running with pistols drawn. Does anyone really do that?
It was my thought process of muzzle control, trigger discipline, overall control of the firearm goes to crap when you take off running down a street with a handgun...
Just my thoughts, but for those of you with more experience is this a training scenario that happens?
SuperiorDG
12-31-2014, 17:25
Your thread reminds of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w3jldPalz4
I've run at matches before, but not for a city block or anything.
I run with handguns all the time. And scissors too.
Seriously, finger off the trigger and it shouldn't be a problem. I bet officers all across the country chase bad guys with their pistols drawn and in hand.
Sul position... Portuguese for "south".
Depends on the distance to be covered, any obstacles in the way, and whether or not you think about it at the time.
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 20:53
In the matches I shoot, it seems to me like the relative difficulty of the shot that I need to make after running determines if the pistol stays up higher, or if I'm swinging the off hand.
say I have an easy close target aray at 10 yards, a 30 foot path to the next shooting position, with another aray of targets at 10 yards. I'm going to do an easy exit, take my finger off the trigger, and run like hell to about 10 feet before the next shooting position. I'll slow my speed as I bring the gun to eye level, and do an easy entry to shoot at the next aray.
If it's aray 1 finishing on a challenging shot, followed by a sprint, and another hard shot, I'll do a hard exit, sprint, but usualy keep the pistol up higher the whole time (both hands), then a hard entry, witch lets me spend more time aiming while settling in the new spot.
I saw a good demo video of this by the army marksmanship unit just yesterday. I'll post it when I find it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q81kc6ESnEA
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 20:58
To preface the question, I have done movement drills with rifles, but have not done much beyond engage and holster, move drills with pistols.
I watched a variety of Hollywood fluff and always noticed folks running with pistols drawn. Does anyone really do that?
Just my thoughts, but for those of you with more experience is this a training scenario that happens?
just re read that. it's more than just the norm in uspsa. In production division for example, you are limited to 10 rounds per mag. If you're mooving, you better be doing a reload. nothing more wastefull time wise than a flat footed reload.
and as such, you kind of need the pistol out of the holster.
Kraven251
12-31-2014, 21:26
I guess I am more referencing the people that you see hauling ass with their pistols drawn. I am all about the uspca style of moving with a purpose with a weapon drawn, but just always wondered about the folks you see sprinting etc.
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 21:39
In competition anyway, shooting by itself, is only a small percentage of the actual stage. add to it enough targets to require a reload, different shooting positions, and obstacles, and you will see movement is the biggest chunk of time in a match.
here is a cool split screen video I just found, which demonstrates this perfectly. one note however, is I think these guys are shooting limited, or open. also they are a master class shooter and an a class shooter. if you threw a c class shooter in the comparison, he'd be finising the second shooting position while the master would be pretty much done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADgDeLQVTTg
I was going to post a video of me shooting a match. Good thing I waited. :p
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 21:45
I guess I am more referencing the people that you see hauling ass with their pistols drawn. I am all about the uspca style of moving with a purpose with a weapon drawn, but just always wondered about the folks you see sprinting etc.
hell yeah! At some of the bigger matches, there can be quite a distance between shooting positions.
I also shoot steel over the summer, and a few years ago, there was a stage set up like a baseball diamond, and movement was basicaly the entire stage. Trust me, it was a full on sprint.
at an indoor uspsa match last year, I saw a guy slip, and fall face forward he was moving so fast. kept his finger of the trigger the entire time, while still pointed at the target.
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 21:48
I was going to post a video of me shooting a match. Good thing I waited. :p
lol, yes none of the people in those videos are me. usualy the folks videoing get bored after my first reload.
Kraven251
12-31-2014, 21:52
good info, much appreciated, guess I'll have to get some space and work through the logistics
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 21:57
yeah, no problem! Another thought. there is a limited grandmaster I know who lives in parker. His name is cha-lee on here. Maybe he could car pool with you down here, to watch one of the matches? maybe even take the safety class, and come shoot with us?
boomerhc9
12-31-2014, 22:04
here is the forum page for charlie's info:
https://www.ar-15.co/members/1398-CHA-LEE
Good tips and videos for competition, however the footwork for hard and easy exits is a bit off when targets shoot back. Almost everything will be a sprint and you most likely will not slow down when approaching cover or your next shooting position. The immediacy of the threat will dictate a lot, including how you chose to carry your pistol (in addition to the other factors mentioned before). I'm not pre-programed to shoot 2 rounds and then move to another box. I'm shooting until my assessment tells me the threat is gone and then I'm deciding where to move to (if needed). I'm not crossing my feet and possibly tripping and I'm not keeping my muzzle from breaking the 180 that only exists on a static square range. This is not to say that firearms safety rules go out the window, just that I'm not following USPSA rules when 2d place means getting shot.
I had a cop friend tell me a story about chasing someone with gun drawn, where he tripped over something and fired a shot. Could have been a BS story though. It was an outside chase through a field or something.
In 3Gun, running 100+ yards with a gun in the holster, 1 slung and shooting another one happens at some matches. If I "knew" that there was the potential of a gun fight and I had to run, no way I would leave a pistol holstered. Why give away even a second when your life is on the line.
If I "knew" that there was the potential of a gun fight and I had to run, no way I would leave a pistol holstered. Why give away even a second when your life is on the line.
From a CCW standpoint, why would the gun be out unless there is a clear need for it? Either it's needed and being used, or you keep it holstered. The situation either meets the criteria for use of deadly force or it doesn't. Last time I checked, menacing with a weapon is still a felony.
Self defense tactics and gun game tactics can't be compared to one another for obvious reasons. The original poster needs to clarify which use case he is interested in learning more about. Without that information nobody can really give accurate advice.
From a CCW standpoint, why would the gun be out unless there is a clear need for it? Either it's needed and being used, or you keep it holstered. The situation either meets the criteria for use of deadly force or it doesn't. Last time I checked, menacing with a weapon is still a felony.
You should look up the definition of menacing.
HoneyBadger
01-01-2015, 09:00
If you had to draw your CCW, why would you be chasing somebody? I think it would be hard to legally justify a defensive shooting in court if you chased somebody down.
on the other hand, if you are running away from the threat with your gun drawn, do your best with the same firearms safety rules that you use every other day. Makes sense right? I'm sure if you feel your life is threatened, you probably wouldn't be thinking "now, let's remember those firearms safety rules"... You're probably going to be thinking something more like "GTFO of here fast!!!1!!" And "DON'T DIE!!!"
Great-Kazoo
01-01-2015, 09:41
If you had to draw your CCW, why would you be chasing somebody? I think it would be hard to legally justify a defensive shooting in court if you chased somebody down.
on the other hand, if you are running away from the threat with your gun drawn, do your best with the same firearms safety rules that you use every other day. Makes sense right? I'm sure if you feel your life is threatened, you probably wouldn't be thinking "now, let's remember those firearms safety rules"... You're probably going to be thinking something more like "GTFO of here fast!!!1!!" And "DON'T DIE!!!"
They just snatched your kid from the back yard. OR You witness an assault and go towards instead of away from said assault.
C: The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.
I can envision a CCW scenario where running in a direction other than directly away from the threat might be prudent, when moving to cover/concealment, or to clear a field of fire. I'm no expert, though.
Kraven251
01-01-2015, 19:21
Self defense tactics and gun game tactics can't be compared to one another for obvious reasons. The original poster needs to clarify which use case he is interested in learning more about. Without that information nobody can really give accurate advice.
I am talking real world tactics, not competition, but getting to use a environment to test skills and drills under stress without the added bonus of bullets flying in your general direction is always nice.
Too many variables to say one of the other. The situation will dictate as both methods have their place.
Great-Kazoo
01-01-2015, 21:34
what nobody picked up on my TJ Hooker reference?
Who ? ;)
Draw if you believe your life or the life of someone else is in danger.
Don't point it at anything you don't want to shoot.
Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are on target.
If you have the time to holster, do so, but if it is already in your hand and you have other pressing issues, be careful and stay alive.
Find cover and use it. If you need to move and you have already fired, exchange mags before leaving cover.
If you remember all of these things or even half of them while someone is shooting at you or one of your loved ones, you are way ahead of the curve.
Be safe.
boomerhc9
01-02-2015, 02:19
To preface the question, I have done movement drills with rifles, but have not done much beyond engage and holster, move drills with pistols.
I watched a variety of Hollywood fluff and always noticed folks running with pistols drawn. Does anyone really do that?
It was my thought process of muzzle control, trigger discipline, overall control of the firearm goes to crap when you take off running down a street with a handgun...
Just my thoughts, but for those of you with more experience is this a training scenario that happens?
I do, and have seen people running with handguns out of the holsters all the time at matches. I havn't been in a warzone, and don't train by running down tejon street with my gun out.
I guess I am more referencing the people that you see hauling ass with their pistols drawn. I am all about the uspca style of moving with a purpose with a weapon drawn, but just always wondered about the folks you see sprinting etc.
Don't see a lot of folks around here running around with their guns out other than at matches, but this is just shithole colorado springs. Other places may be different.
I am talking real world tactics, not competition, but getting to use a environment to test skills and drills under stress without the added bonus of bullets flying in your general direction is always nice.
I guess I will say this. One poster said something about being programmed to shoot twice, then move. I shoot competitions, but I wouldn't do this. I would attempt to shoot until the threat stopped, I probably wouldn't just stand in place, I'd probably try to make it a little harder for the other person.
If in said gunfight, I had to reload, or was in a bad spot, I'd try to get behind something that would stop a bullet. I don't think however, that I'd shoot, holster, move to cover, unholster and reload, reholster, run to a new place, unholster and shoot, holster.. etc
I'm very confident that in a real life situation I wouldn't remember to do anything and would just stand right where I was and fire from out in the open like a dummy.
rustycrusty
01-02-2015, 06:34
There are some constants between competition shooting and defensive/combative shooting when it comes to movement because the most important goals are the same
1- don't die
2- don't kill anyone you shouldn't
3- win
the third goal is accomplished in very different ways even between shooting sports and will be different every time in defensive/combative situations.
The first two goals are rather unchanging. 1 is pretty easy. Even novice shooters are generally aversive to pointing pistols at themselves. I did say 'generally' and we all know exceptions to this.
The best and most instinctive way to not point a gun at yourself while you are running is to not jerk the gun around a lot. You don't see videos of competitive shooters or combat shooters running wih a full sprinters arm pump. The pistol is always held with less movement than the arm without it.
Second to that, the pistol is held in a manner where is can easily be controlled when falling. this seems to be instinct for many shooters as well. I notice that every champion shooter and combat shooter I watch runs with the pistol floating away from the body and generally in front of the face, or with the pistol held close and controlled by both hands 'sul' position.
Last, I notice that the pistol always points in the direction of travel unless it is held on target. Comp shooters tend to point towards a target of they have one, but when they don't they point forward. It is hardest to manipulate a gun to point at your torso when the gun is pointed directly forward and held there purposefully. I know this from grappling with sim guns. It is much easier to have it torqued into your body if it is pointed across body. Even in sul position, the gun points down, but at midline with energy most easily directed out straight forward into a isosceles stance.
Number 2 is all about trigger control. If if you are to slip the instinct is to shoot hands out to catch you. Getting limbs out while falling would give best probability for missing yourself with an ND. also remember- when falling, you don't have to pull the trigger for the gun to go off. There is plenty of shit around in the real world that can pull a trigger on a gun being pressed into and skidded along the ground or any other surface. Trigger control goes beyond keeping your finger off the trigger. Wrestle with a gun or fall in a bush with a gun and you will understand what I mean. I have had a t shirt pull the trigger while grappling. No solid advice here other than to practice awareness of what's around the trigger.
Sounds corny but I use a replica Airsoft of my XDm to practice in my basement. I do this a lot and it has cut down on my draw time and reload times. Target acquisitions has been a big focus of mine. Making the right call to shoot in a crowded area. Rule #4 which is often plays last on our list of priorities. I've also practiced engaging multiple targets while moving towards cover. It's amazing what just a little practice will do in a non-threat environment. A buddy old me "it ain't worth killing for if it ain't worth dying for". Pretty profound, and sound advice. Coloccw hit the nail on the head. Every situation is gonna be different. I just try to improve the areas I can while maintaining proficiency. The Airsogt gun is just a tool, like a blue gun. I want muscle memory to take over so my brain can focus on task at hand.
That is not corny at all. Dry-fire is a proven skill builder as is airsoft. Anything that increases your weapon familiarity and overall skill is of great benefit. While there are certainly crusty old trainers that put down the action shooting sports, the fact of the matter is that all of the top trainers of Mil and LE are in fact involved in competitive shooting in one form or another. They all agree that the cross-over is not only beneficial, but almost imperative. Spend any amount of time with Seeklander, the AMU, etc. and you will see that the more you know about the use of weapons at speed, shooting on the move, etc, the better your chance of survival will be if you do in fact end up needing to use a firearm.
There are guys that have treadmills in their garage/basement that they use to practice shooting on the move with their airsoft guns.
Are you peeping on me Irving. :)
No, but I sometimes regret getting rid of our treadmill.
HoneyBadger
01-03-2015, 14:26
There are guys that have treadmills in their garage/basement that they use to practice shooting on the move with their airsoft guns.
[facepalm] Hilarious.
Why is that funny? I can't think of a much better way to practice shooting on the move at home.
HoneyBadger
01-03-2015, 14:34
Why is that funny? I can't think of a much better way to practice shooting on the move at home.
You should start a stand-up comedy thread ;)
Great-Kazoo
01-03-2015, 15:18
Why is that funny? I can't think of a much better way to practice shooting on the move at home.
We set up a shoot house scenario where i use to work, using airsoft pistols. Work slowed down, out came the pistols, up went the targets. Even after sweeping & vacuuming the floor, you'd still spot the occasional pellet.
buffalobo
01-03-2015, 15:44
You should start a stand-up comedy thread ;)
Don't encourage him. He is only funny outside the Joke o Day thread.
We set up a shoot house scenario where i use to work, using airsoft pistols. Work slowed down, out came the pistols, up went the targets. Even after sweeping & vacuuming the floor, you'd still spot the occasional pellet.
Those damn pellets are a problem
Why is that funny? I can't think of a much better way to practice shooting on the move at home.
Now it's stuck in my head
Another fun idea I had back in the day, but never got off the ground, was to take reduced sized IDPA targets and have your spouse (or a buddy) set them around your house while you wait outside. Then you go and clear your house not knowing where the targets are hidden. Then you switch and have the other person do it. I made the targets, but I only have a $20 airsoft gun that you have to rack the slide for each shot, so it really isn't as fun. If you use two layers of cardboard taped together, it is enough to catch pellets and you can just dig them out. I'd like to do this with my wife, and tell her she has 2 minutes to clear the house. She'd enjoy that.
HoneyBadger
01-03-2015, 16:14
I had a Glock 19 airsoft gun a while back that used CO2 and had a reciprocating slide. It was pretty awesome. I think I lost it somewhere 2 moves ago.
Great-Kazoo
01-03-2015, 17:37
Another fun idea I had back in the day, but never got off the ground, was to take reduced sized IDPA targets and have your spouse (or a buddy) set them around your house while you wait outside. Then you go and clear your house not knowing where the targets are hidden. Then you switch and have the other person do it. I made the targets, but I only have a $20 airsoft gun that you have to rack the slide for each shot, so it really isn't as fun. If you use two layers of cardboard taped together, i I'd like to do this with my wife, and tell her she has 2 minutes to clear the house. She'd enjoy that.
You tape up your wife and do what again ? Honey kick your friends out and put on that duct tape outfit, yeah you know which one.
If you had to draw your CCW, why would you be chasing somebody? I think it would be hard to legally justify a defensive shooting in court if you chased somebody down.
on the other hand, if you are running away from the threat with your gun drawn, do your best with the same firearms safety rules that you use every other day. Makes sense right? I'm sure if you feel your life is threatened, you probably wouldn't be thinking "now, let's remember those firearms safety rules"... You're probably going to be thinking something more like "GTFO of here fast!!!1!!" And "DON'T DIE!!!"
They just snatched your kid from the back yard. OR You witness an assault and go towards instead of away from said assault.
C: The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.
I was thinking the same.
I am not much of a runner (LOL@myself), but if my family is getting kidnapped, I am going to chase that black van down to the river with everything I got.
Great-Kazoo
01-03-2015, 18:38
I was thinking the same.
I am not much of a runner (LOL@myself), but if my family is getting kidnapped, I am going to chase that black van down to the river with everything I got.
Well within ones legal right no less. Unfortunately a lot of CCW holders are unaware what's legal / within their rights, when it comes to Use of Deadly Force.
boomerhc9
01-04-2015, 23:50
There are guys that have treadmills in their garage/basement that they use to practice shooting on the move with their airsoft guns.
I wonder if that is what Harry Reid was secretly doing when he had his, ahem. accident.[Sarcasm2]
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