6.5 Grendel?

[two shoes]

Anyone here have experience with the 6.5 grendel? From what I have read, I am ready to drink the cool-aid....

Thoughts? I know the biggest draw back is ammo availability... but I can get much now for my other toys so that is moot.

Thanks!

[Colorado Osprey]

Don't drimk the Cool-Aid!

I'm not sold on the Grendel.

It is a 22PPC necked up to a 6.5mm
It really doesn't fly my kite.
The extractor and locking lugs are a weak link just like all of the 7.62x39 AR's
You can't hog out the bolt that much and expect the little metal that is left to last.

Trying to duplicate factory 6.5 G ammo is impossible. You just can't get those velocities.

The 243wssm outperforms it on all levels for distance, velocity and energy. The proprietary bolt is proven to be stronger and more reliable. Components for reloading as more plentiful and cheaper. The only draw back is the 8 round magazine. But if you are shooting at extreme ranges this is really no importance.

There is also a wilcat version in 6.5WSSM if the 6.5 flotes your boat by Mike Milli aka Dtech.. the co-designer of the WSSM platform in the AR.
www.dtechsuperstore.com

There is also a guy making a 6mmAR that is really just a 6mmPPC, but same problems because of the hogged out bolt face as the 7.62x39


If you are looking for an intermediate AR in a larger chambering, I would strongly consider the 6.8SPC as they are readily available and you are not over paying for the Grendel name.

For a shorter range with more power than the .223 I chose a 6x45 which is just a 223 necked up to a 6mm. Approximately 30% more energy than the 223 and the only part changes to convert from a 223 is just a barrel swap.

There is always the DPMS AR-10 chassis in 260 Remington or the new Olympic Gamestalker 30 OSM (prenounced awesome) that is a 30 cal WSSM (not 30WSM) that will fit in a standard AR-15 chassis and exceeeds 30-06 energy (with even 180 grain bullets) and velocity which make the Remington 30RAR look like a punk as it can't even replicate the 308.

You are going to hear a lot about the 30 OSM in the next couple of months.
Ammo manufacturer's are already starting to ramp up for production ammo as well as it will be seen on some hunting TV shows.

There is also going to be a 7mm version out next year.

[two shoes]

The extractor and locking lugs are a weak link just like all of the 7.62x39 AR's

Trying to duplicate factory 6.5 G ammo is impossible. You just can't get those velocities.

The 243wssm outperforms it on all levels for distance, velocity and energy. The proprietary bolt is proven to be stronger and more reliable. Components for reloading as more plentiful and cheaper. The only draw back is the 8 round magazine. But if you are shooting at extreme ranges this is really no importance.


If you are looking for an intermediate AR in a larger chambering, I would strongly consider the 6.8SPC as they are readily available and you are not over paying for the Grendel name.


Colorado Osprey,

Thank you for your thoughts on this cartridge.

A question I have with the 6.8SPC:
Wouldn't it be the same issues with a weakened bolt and extractor as the 6.5 & 7.62?

I have seen the claims of 2600+ with fatory ammo for the 6.5 G (Wolf Gold 123 gr)

I guess I am looking for the accuracy (drop and drift) better than a .308 without the kick of the 300 win. and will feed reliably.

I am not real interested in wildcats. I could not find much info on the Oly 30 OSM, but haven't looked real hard as of yet.... and would like to stay with the AR-15 platform... for now.

Thank again for your thoughts on this and I will be researching this in depth. I am still pretty open to caliber.

Regards,

-two shoes

[Colorado Osprey]

The 6.5 has as parent case of the PPC from the 220 Russian with a case head diameter of 0.441" The 6.8SPC is based of the 30 Remington with a case head diameter of only 0.421"

That 20 thousands is a big deal and no the 6.8 does not have that bolt problem.


The 30 OSM will be on the AR-15 chassis lower.

The new published data for evergy and velocity fell about 200ft/sec recently on the 6.8SPC.
Original data was for a 24" barrel. Since most AR's chambered in 6.8SPC are 16" they lowered the ammo published velocity.

Realize also that almost all data shown in the Grendel is also for 24" barrels.
Shooting out of just a 20" barrel will drop 123 grain bullets to between 2200-2300ft/sec

Most of the Grendal data is skewed as well in my opinion.

There is data supporting the SPC with 115 grain bullets at 2600ft/sec but that is only available in a tight SPC II or DMR chamber. Most manufacturers are not making the 6.8 with the tight chamber. This velocity was only availabe with the tight chamber and combat full house loads.

These still pale in comparison with the 243WSSM.
Over 3000ft/sec with a high BC 100 grain bullet is easily obtained with factory ammo.... but again you need at least a 20" barrel.
107's can be single loaded. The trade off to a smaller cal like the 6mm is sectional density when compared to the 6.6 and 6.5.

If your goal is only 2600ft/sec, the 6x45, which is simply a 223 necked up to 6mm can shoot a 100 grain bullet at 2600ft/sec with a high BC and about 30% more energy than the 223 with just a barrel swap.

I usually just load up to 80 grains in my 20" 6x45 and shoot just over 2900ft/sec. These really buck the wind... but a long range rifle like my 300 Win Mag it is NOT. It will however shoot out the center of a target out to about 400 yards.

All of these do a better job than the 308 for bullet drop and drift.


Linky on the 30 OSM:
http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9109&highlight=osm

[jh308]

In my 12.5" 6.8, I'm hitting 2950-2975 w/SSA 85gr TSX, 3100-3200 in my 18". 90TNT's w/29.4gr of RE7 hit 2700 in the 12.5" and avg 2911 in the 18". I've shot prarie dogs down in Baca county @ 400+ yrds w/this load. The 6.8 was primarily developed for SBR's, you don't gain much velocity per inch past 16" bbl. My main reasoning for purchasing a 18" was simply the fact that I did not have a 18" anything in my collection. I'm pushing the 110's and 115's past 2700fps w/handloads pretty easily using H335 or RE10x. Those are great velocity #'s, but unfortunately, there isn't really any high BC bullets available in the 6.8 weight range. If you're interested in the 6.8, go to http://68forums.com/forums/index.php. Everything 6.8 is there and the people are very friendly and helpful. As Osprey stated, you must make sure that you are getting a SPC II or DMR chamber however. The SAAMI chamber's lead is too short. The other two have a 0.010" increase in the leade to lower the pressure levels. Think of it like in the 223 chambers you have SAAMI = .233 Win Chamber, SPCII = 5.56 NATO Chamber, and DMR = 223 Wylde chamber. A 1-11 or 1-12 twist is optimal. Stay away from the SAAMI chamber. You will never get velocity w/it. I have never heard of a broken 6.8 bolt yet.

I pondered this same question and finally decided that I would use a larger caliber for longer range work (308, 260, etc.). I went w/the 6.8 for it's ability to give me a hunting rifle w/a range of 300 yrds that only had a barrel length of only 12.5", which was the deciding factor for me. It is also a very accurate caliber. The 12.5" will produce average groups of .8-1.25" regulary. I've gotten the 18" down in the 0.3"'s and it will shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA all day.

ETA: I'm working up some Accubond, Hornandy, and SMK loads w/it on Sunday or Monday, if you're available and near the Longmont/Lyons area, PM me. I'd be happy to let you run some loads down each of them.

[Troublco]

I have a 20" 6.5 set up with a YHM diamond rail, RRA 2 stage match trigger, and Magpul PRS which I got after doing some research on both the Grendel and the 6.8. They're pretty close ballistically out to around 400, but from there out the 6.5 has the edge. Brass is really a non-issue, as you can simply re-form 7.62x39 brass by running new brass through the Grendel dies, loading, and fire forming. I got mine for longer range work like coyote and antelope hunting, and I'm really happy with it.
The point about the thickness of the 7.62x39 bolts, maybe it's valid but I sure haven't heard of a lot of failures. Really, if you're going to stay at or below 400 yards, the 6.5 doesn't have anything on the 6.8. Out past that, the better BC's of the 6.5 bullets come into play. 6.5's are very efficient ballistically.
There's the militant crowd that swears the 6.8 is the best thing since sliced bread, and if it works for them then more power to them. I have nothing against it. Both were designed for different things, and so they have their high points in different areas. IMHO, the Grendel is a bit more versatile and since I have three other 6.5 calibers so it made sense to me to go with the Grendel.

[Colorado Osprey]

Hornady is now putting out factory Grendel ammo with a 123grain A-max
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-A-MAX

Interestingly enough, the bullet drop is worse than a 168 grain 308 at 500 yards(49" at 500 yards)(1261ft/lbs). The 6.5 has 52" at 500 yards.(856ft/lbs)

Don't get me wrong, it is still 10" higher than the 110grain 6.8SPC at 500 yards. 62" at 500 yards.(550ft/lbs)

BTW these are all with a 200 yards zero.

Oh yeah, that 100 grain 243WSSM... only 35" of drop at 500 yards.(971ft/lbs)
Heck, even the weak 6x45 with an 85 grain bullet only has 45" of drop ot 500 yards... just not enough energy left (636ft/lbs)

[DeusExMachina]

That sounds exactly right...were you expecting a necked-down 7.62x39 to outperform 7.62x51?

I've always been a fan of Grendel, on paper. I had a Beowulf and loved the insane power it had. I got out of it due to money and the Beowulf community is a big bunch of whiners, wanting Alexander at their every beckoning call.

[mightymouse]

Here's Colorado Osprey preaching about oddball, limited production, dead end rounds.. again.:rolleyes:

[Hoser]

Here's Colorado Osprey preaching about oddball, limited production, dead end rounds.. again.

Variety is the spice of life.

Just think of all the crap the people using the 223 got from hard core 222 shooters way back when.

Keep it civil.

[Troublco]

Hornady is now putting out factory Grendel ammo with a 123grain A-max
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-A-MAX

Interestingly enough, the bullet drop is worse than a 168 grain 308 at 500 yards(49" at 500 yards)(1261ft/lbs). The 6.5 has 52" at 500 yards.(856ft/lbs)

Don't get me wrong, it is still 10" higher than the 110grain 6.8SPC at 500 yards. 62" at 500 yards.(550ft/lbs)

BTW these are all with a 200 yards zero.

Oh yeah, that 100 grain 243WSSM... only 35" of drop at 500 yards.(971ft/lbs)
Heck, even the weak 6x45 with an 85 grain bullet only has 45" of drop ot 500 yards... just not enough energy left (636ft/lbs)

So there is a 3" difference @ 500 yards between the 6.5 and the .308, while the 6.5 uses less powder to do it and fits in an AR-15 platform. You can reform easily obtained and relatively cheap 7.62x39 brass to get it. It still has over 800 ft/lbs of energy at 500 yards, quite a bit more than the 6.8 or the 6x45. It's still supersonic past 1000, while the .308 is going transsonic around that point depending on load and bullet (I've shot quite a bit of M118 and M118LR at 1000, and out of gas guns to boot). It does this with a 120gr bullet (or 123, depending on who made it and what load it is) AND it isn't a magnum. Hmmmm.

The Grendel uses the 7.62x39 boltface, as was already mentioned. This is about .445. The .243 WSSM, by contrast, has a bolt face size of .535. So why, if the 7.62x39 bolt lugs and extractor are so "weak", would one want to shoot a more powerful cartridge that uses a much larger boltface, and by extension a bolt with a thinner margin, if you're worried about the extractor and bolt lugs on a 6.5 Grendel/7.62x39? And if either one is so weak that folks are worried about it, would manufacturers risk all sorts of product liability selling them?

So it still sounds to me like it depends on what you want, what you like, what you're going to do with it, and what platform you want to use it in.

(And don't get me wrong. I have an urge to get a .338 WSSM wildcat from DTech one of these days!)[Tooth]

[Colorado Osprey]

Here's Colorado Osprey preaching about oddball, limited production, dead end rounds.. again.:rolleyes:

I'm for anybody using the platform for anything.. it help justify that it is a sporting platform.
The more variety we get the greater the potential users.

On a side note...i do have a weakness for the "differrent" cartridges.
If you roll your own they are never dead end rounds.

[Troublco]

I'm for anybody using the platform for anything.. it help justify that it is a sporting platform.
The more variety we get the greater the potential users.

On a side note...i do have a weakness for the "differrent" cartridges.
If you roll your own they are never dead end rounds.

You know, there are those who would say that the hunting of armed men is sporting; making the use of all AR types sporting, no?
[Viking]

[Colorado Osprey]

The ultimate game, huh?
For those that have done it, there is no comparison to wild game.
Nothing like hunting while being hunted.
I will say though I do not consider it a sport....and am glad that I no longer have to do it.

[Troublco]

I'd say that any who have had to, are glad when they don't.