New Stabizing Brace letter / rule

[SAnd]

The ATF issued a letter that rules the use of stabilizers as a stock on a pistol is a Short Barreled Rifle. It over rules any previous letter.

Link to the page listing the link to the letter-
http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry (http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry)

Direct link to the letter-
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces. pdf (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces. pdf)

I think it does anyway.

I didn't find this anywhere else (I hope)

[Zundfolge]

So is this yet another new letter? Or a "letter to end all letters"?

[thvigil11]

I like how its an undated letter that overrules all letters. Nice touch.

[asmo]

If you stand one way your fine.. If you stand another way, you're a terrorist.

[ruthabagah]

So is this yet another new letter? Or a "letter to end all letters"?

seems like The Letter for now.... how enforceable is it is the question. During a recent visit to a local range pretty much all the shooter present were using a SBX...

[mutt]

And now the precedent has been set - reclassification based on use regardless of actual classification or intent. One would hope the likes of the NRA and GOA would sue over this but they won't. Better start practicing your one handed pistol shooting. Using two hands is technically redesigning a pistol. Wonder when they'll decide bump firing is redesigning a semi-auto into an illegal machine gun. Give it time.

[Zundfolge]

And now the precedent has been set - reclassification based on use regardless of actual classification or intent. One would hope the likes of the NRA and GOA would sue over this but they won't. Better start practicing your one handed pistol shooting. Using two hands is technically redesigning a pistol. Wonder when they'll decide bump firing is redesigning a semi-auto into an illegal machine gun. Give it time.

Yep, that's kind of how I interpreted this ... The Weaver or Isosceles stance is now the illegal manufacture of a SBR (or at least an AOW).

At the very least this ruling would seem to me to extend beyond the SIG brace ... AR pistols before this had foam wrapped on the end of the buffer tube, and even without the foam people often shouldered them (since 5.56 doesn't really recoil all that bad).

Seems to me those would also now be illegal under this letter.

[68Charger]

Reminds me of the whole "it depends on what your definition of the word "IS" is..."

so if I pick my nose with a pencil eraser, I've redesigned the pencil?

[ThunderSquirrel]

Who didn't see this coming? Especially with the ATF on such a hot button issue of NFA weapons?
No agency likes to have its rules circumvented on technicality, no matter how awful the original rules are, and they will do whatever they can to close the loophole. Even Backtrack.

[mutt]

Reminds me of the whole "it depends on what your definition of the word "IS" is..."

so if I pick my nose with a pencil eraser, I've redesigned the pencil?

According to the ATF you did. Be glad they don't regulate the use of pencils or you'd pay dearly for that redesign.

[thvigil11]

But if you plug one nostril and blow out a snot rocket, you've created an illegal destructive device.

[68Charger]

But if you plug one nostril and blow out a snot rocket, you've created an illegal destructive device.

Good thing my camera wasn't on.. whew... I dodged a pencil there.

[mutt]

Who didn't see this coming? Especially with the ATF on such a hot button issue of NFA weapons?
No agency likes to have its rules circumvented on technicality, no matter how awful the original rules are, and they will do whatever they can to close the loophole. Even Backtrack.

But it's OK for them to enforce them on a technicality? Sorry, they are making things up now. To say you are redesigning something based on how you use it it going off the deep end. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. How you want to shoot it used to be your business. Not anymore. Like I said before this is about far more than the SIG brace. This is about granting ATF the power to regulate firearms based on use. This has opened the door for a whole new level of gun control.

[thvigil11]

Good thing my camera wasn't on.. whew... I dodged a pencil there.

That sounds like you just admitted to something. Agents have been dispatched. [Jail]

[Irving]

And now the precedent has been set - reclassification based on use regardless of actual classification or intent. One would hope the likes of the NRA and GOA would sue over this but they won't. Better start practicing your one handed pistol shooting. Using two hands is technically redesigning a pistol. Wonder when they'll decide bump firing is redesigning a semi-auto into an illegal machine gun. Give it time.

If you print a copy of the letter, roll it up, then sodomize yourself with it, it's not a violation because it is the same end result as just reading the letter.

[Dave_L]

"The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from the public concerning the proper use of devices recently marketed as “stabilizing braces.”"

Don't poke the bear. This is what happens. Ugh.

[Zundfolge]

[tin foil hat]So they've created this legal conundrum so that they can "solve" the problem by revoking their ruling that the SIG brace is not a rifle stock (even when used as designed ... since it can also easily be used as "not designed") and now everyone with an AR pistol with SIG brace must either surrender it or pay the tax and register it. Now they've set the precedent that "improper use" = "redesign" and they'll do the exact same thing with all handguns claiming that all of them are AOWs because they can be "redesigned" to AOWs by use with two hands.[/tin foil hat]

[ThunderSquirrel]

But it's OK for them to enforce them on a technicality? Sorry, they are making things up now. To say you are redesigning something based on how you use it it going off the deep end. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. How you want to shoot it used to be your business. Not anymore. Like I said before this is about far more than the SIG brace. This is about granting ATF the power to regulate firearms based on use. This has opened the door for a whole new level of gun control.
I agree it's completely absurd. I'm just saying I saw it coming

[thvigil11]

But it's OK for them to enforce them on a technicality? Sorry, they are making things up now. To say you are redesigning something based on how you use it it going off the deep end. A pistol is a pistol is a pistol. How you want to shoot it used to be your business. Not anymore. Like I said before this is about far more than the SIG brace. This is about granting ATF the power to regulate firearms based on use. This has opened the door for a whole new level of gun control.

Agreed, but if the gun community continues to recognize and roll over for the ATF then this will keep happening. Instead of writing letters asking for permission, perhaps we should begin to write letters demanding change. Start with your congressmen and this guy (Max M. Kingery fire_tech@atf.gov or by phone at (304) 616-4300) I just sent an email following his definition of (redesign;to alter the appearance or function of) with that of (Alter; to make different without changing into something else) and (Make; to cause to exist, occur, or appear). I actually sent the full definitions for each and have asked for an explanation as to how usage fits in with the definition of these words. We need to open the floodgates on this.

[thvigil11]

"The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from the public concerning the proper use of devices recently marketed as “stabilizing braces.”"

Don't poke the bear. This is what happens. Ugh.

I'm not attacking you personally, but I am sick of the "Don't poke the bear" comment. WE ARE THE BEAR. But we have allowed ourselves to be cowed down over the years.

[mutt]

Don't poke the bear. This is what happens. Ugh.

Glad our Founding Fathers didn't subscribe to that line of thinking.
Government over-reach and unconstitutional laws should always be challenged.
We The People don't poke the bear near enough.

[Dave_L]

Glad our Founding Fathers didn't subscribe to that line of thinking.
Government over-reach and unconstitutional laws should always be challenged.
We The People don't poke the bear near enough.

That's not what I meant. I meant we had a letter saying it was fine. Don't keep asking for more "clarification". Just leave it as it was.

[Jamnanc]

I'm not attacking you personally, but I am sick of the "Don't poke the bear" comment. WE ARE THE BEAR. But we have allowed ourselves to be cowed down over the years.
"WE ARE THE BEAR" shamelessly stolen to be my new sig.

[mutt]

That's not what I meant. I meant we had a letter saying it was fine. Don't keep asking for more "clarification". Just leave it as it was.

I hear you.

Obviously that letter wasn't worth the paper it was written on. One could argue this letter holds the same weight as those before it - none. Of course it will take a prosecution to find out. No one is going to volunteer to be that poster child so this letter will stand and the 2A gets diminished a little further.

[Great-Kazoo]

This was already discussed here ad nauseum. The letter is clarification to a question asked by an individual, not a ruling for EVERYONE. ANYONE else care to send the ATF a letter asking for clarification about anything else [facepalm]

Here's another discussion about the brace & clarification.
https://www.ar-15.co/threads/129295-Arm-Braces-amp-Pistols-Legal?highlight=sig+brace

[mutt]

Kazoo this isn't the same letter. This one was released today. It wasn't written to an individual but to the industry as a whole and it states it revokes any individual letters written prior.

[Great-Kazoo]

Kazoo this isn't the same letter. This one was released today. It wasn't written to an individual but to the industry as a whole and it states it revokes any individual letters written prior.

Arfcom had 4ish threads going over the same letter Not to mention another thread on another letter. Which the responding tech person gave 2 different answers.
One does need to remember the sig is a BRACE not stock. It also was sold to ATF as a brace that went around the wrist, not As people post pictures on line a butt stock.

IMO if no one knows what one has so much the better. Which is why any style of brace we may or may not have purchased was a cash not CC deal.

[SuperiorDG]

So if I build a SBR but never shoulder it and only fire it with one hand have I magically made it a pistol? Inquiring minds want to know! (Stolen from facebook)

[thvigil11]

That's not what I meant. I meant we had a letter saying it was fine. Don't keep asking for more "clarification". Just leave it as it was.

I see your point as well and agree that too many kept asking mother may I.

[SuperiorDG]

"The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from the public concerning the proper use of devices recently marketed as “stabilizing braces.”"

Don't poke the bear. This is what happens. Ugh.


Damn, I was just writing to the BATF about how to define my new setup.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10915355_848280361881481_1659436790630510954_n.jpg ?oh=3d166a55f6bc29dec75112edb7ff88eb&oe=55655593

[mutt]

So if I build a SBR but never shoulder it and only fire it with one hand have I magically made it a pistol? Inquiring minds want to know! (Stolen from facebook)

Using their "logic" then yes - how one uses something determines its classification at the time of use. Things can magically change classifications multiple times on one range trip! Of course this magic would only apply when it aids in their desire to prosecute you.

[Skully]

The letter "Over rules" all other letters but says the same thing it always has.

What its intent is and if you use it for not its "intent" then it is wrong. Always read that way from the beginning to now.


Someone in Cali has been charged with illegal SBR for having a stabilizing brace.

BREAKING: CA Man Charged with Owning an SBR for Pistol Brace Equipped AR-15 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-ca-man-charged-owning-sbr-pistol-brace-equipped-ar-15/)



Granted it is Cali...............

[mutt]

Damn, I was just writing to the BATF about how to define my new setup.

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10915355_848280361881481_1659436790630510954_n.jpg ?oh=3d166a55f6bc29dec75112edb7ff88eb&oe=55655593

Dude - all that thing needs to be complete is a beer dispenser!

[fitz19d]

Someone in Cali has been charged with illegal SBR for having a stabilizing brace.

BREAKING: CA Man Charged with Owning an SBR for Pistol Brace Equipped AR-15 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-ca-man-charged-owning-sbr-pistol-brace-equipped-ar-15/)

Granted it is Cali...............

Beat me to it


To be fair it was also included in the commission of a crime. Vs someone nabbed at a range.

[Skully]

Beat me to it


To be fair it was also included in the commission of a crime. Vs someone nabbed at a range.

Liked the pic with the money, weed, along with the "Pistol" AR and Sig Brace. The article mentioned they commit burglaries, the pic looks more like drug related.


http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TurlockHomeInvasion.jpg

[thvigil11]

The letter "Over rules" all other letters but says the same thing it always has.

What its intent is and if you use it for not its "intent" then it is wrong. Always read that way from the beginning to now.


Someone in Cali has been charged with illegal SBR for having a stabilizing brace.

BREAKING: CA Man Charged with Owning an SBR for Pistol Brace Equipped AR-15 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-ca-man-charged-owning-sbr-pistol-brace-equipped-ar-15/)



Granted it is Cali...............


Merely a coincidence, move along citizens. I do like how the letter was dropped ten minutes before closing time on a Friday before a long weekend.

[thvigil11]

Sorry, double post.

[275RLTW]

1) don't ask questions you don't want the answer to...
2) use products as intended
3) if you find a loophole, don't wave it in front of the ATF's face and taunt them with it.

[275RLTW]

Merely a coincidence, move along citizens. I do like how the letter was dropped ten minutes before closing time on a Friday before a long weekend.
3 days before SHOT show no less. Wonder how that will affect Sig's booth.

[hurley842002]

1) don't ask questions you don't want the answer to...
2) use products as intended
3) if you find a loophole, don't wave it in front of the ATF's face and taunt them with it.
Pretty much...

[Skully]

1) don't ask questions you don't want the answer to...
2) use products as intended
3) if you find a loophole, don't wave it in front of the ATF's face and taunt them with it.

Yes, exactly.


Looking at the original letter and the new one, int meaning they both essentially say the same thing. Use the Sig brace for its intended purpose as a brace on the arm, using not for its intended purpose, shouldering it is not its intended purpose and is wrong. The only difference is the new letter "spells" it out that it would be considered an illegal SBR.

Let us see how long it takes for people to get in trouble if they do.

[osok-308]

1) don't ask questions you don't want the answer to...
2) use products as intended
3) if you find a loophole, don't wave it in front of the ATF's face and taunt them with it.

Yeah, agencies in the federal government will find out ways to be vindictive. Still want a stabilizing brace, but now only to stabilize my arm while shooting.

[Great-Kazoo]

Yes, exactly.


Looking at the original letter and the new one, int meaning they both essentially say the same thing. Use the Sig brace for its intended purpose as a brace on the arm, using not for its intended purpose, shouldering it is not its intended purpose and is wrong. The only difference is the new letter "spells" it out that it would be considered an illegal SBR.

People should now be very leery in shouldering it at the public range.

They should have also exercised more common sense rather than post pics of their NEW PISTOL on every gun forum out there. However neither common or sense have factored in to the equation, so far.

[Eric P]

Or we just call a gun a gun. End all this non-sense about usage. They all do the same thing.

[hurley842002]

Or we just call a gun a gun. End all this non-sense about usage. They all do the same thing.
Yup, a gun is a gun is a gun. You either use them lawfully or you don't, period.

[Big John]

They should have also exercised more common sense rather than post pics of their NEW PISTOL on every gun forum out there. However neither common or sense have factored in to the equation, so far.There are way too many people that have these to have them be some kind of secret. Whether they are posted on a facebook page, range pics/vid's, or for sale ad's. Hiding it from the powers that be is basically impossible for a commercially sold product.

It's kinda comical to watch the fear mongering followed by the internet freak out on this. At this point, I see it as nothing more than stupid people, asking stupid questions, then getting the well deserved stupid answer.

[brokenscout]

Let the Sig brace panic begin [Coffee] sell "my friends" for $500. Ha, & I'll throw in a box of 22lr

[Skully]

There are way too many people that have these to have them be some kind of secret. Whether they are posted on a facebook page, range pics/vid's, or for sale ad's. Hiding it from the powers that be is basically impossible for a commercially sold product.

It's kinda comical to watch the fear mongering followed by the internet freak out on this. At this point, I see it as nothing more than stupid people, asking stupid questions, then getting the well deserved stupid answer.

Yes exactly, totally!

They have them for things other than an AR Pistol, like UZI, AK, etc.

I wonder if Sig had some warning to all of this and maybe why they came up with the "New" one that looks less like a stock and more of a bondage device?

It will be interesting to see what who or if ANY charges will EVER be placed on the poor mans SBR.





Let the Sig brace panic begin sell "my friends" for $500. Ha, & I'll throw in a box of 22lr

That is only if it there was fear of a banning it and they are no longer available.
[Coffee]

[kwando]

Pick up sig braces for cheap while everyone off loads these illegal devices :)

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l166/kwando90/Forum%20stuff/905DB2A7-912A-45BC-972B-082D8609D67F_zpscc3wqi87.png

[AR_ART]

While I get its too early to "panic" about this, my concern would be for the law abiding individual that would be arrested for possessing a "perceived SBR" given this "new" letter. If the person were to be held till they could post bond, getting an attorney, paying for the attorney, time off of work to defend themselves. Sure it could be a "landmark" ruling but that person who actually goes through this battle what would it do to their life in the interim. And if he/she won, good for all of us, but I don't see how they'd be able to recoup all that money spent not to mention, potentially job loss, home life.. etc...

Which brings me to another question or point. So these AR Pistols have been around long before the SB15. Would removing the SB15 and leaving just the buffer tube exposed pre-SB15 make everything "okay" again? So rather than panic selling the Pistol, just remove the SB15 until a firm ruling is made?

[Great-Kazoo]

There are way too many people that have these to have them be some kind of secret. Whether they are posted on a facebook page, range pics/vid's, or for sale ad's. Hiding it from the powers that be is basically impossible for a commercially sold product.

It's kinda comical to watch the fear mongering followed by the internet freak out on this. At this point, I see it as nothing more than stupid people, asking stupid questions, then getting the well deserved stupid answer.


These people are the same ones asking for clarification on their solvent trap. Some folks don't know when to leave well enough alone. Personally, if they're that unsure or stupid. They have no business owning Anything Firearm related.

[kidicarus13]

While I get its too early to "panic" about this, my concern would be for the law abiding individual that would be arrested for possessing a "perceived SBR" given this "new" letter. If the person were to be held till they could post bond, getting an attorney, paying for the attorney, time off of work to defend themselves. Sure it could be a "landmark" ruling but that person who actually goes through this battle what would it do to their life in the interim. And if he/she won, good for all of us, but I don't see how they'd be able to recoup all that money spent not to mention, potentially job, home life.. etc...

Which brings me to another question or point. So these AR Pistols have been around long before the SB15. Would removing the SB15 and leaving just the buffer tube exposed pre-SB15 make everything "okay" again? So rather than panic selling the Pistol, just remove the SB15 until a firm ruling is made?

...or keep the brace on and just don't shoulder it while shooting. It's perfectly legal to remain attached to your AR pistol, it's just not legal to shoot it from the shoulder now... I guess...

[def90]

"The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from the public concerning the proper use of devices recently marketed as “stabilizing braces.”"

Don't poke the bear. This is what happens. Ugh.
Yep, this all came about because morons just couldn't resist asking for yet another clarification..

[asmo]

Here it comes... I am in a group on Facebook that, among other things, hates the Sig Brace.. I have been saving these for just this moment. Enjoy:

55111

[asmo]

551135511555117

[asmo]

551195512155123

[asmo]

And the winner:

55125

[asmo]

http://tacticalshit.com/another-atf-ruling-pulling-trigger-repeatedly-now-illegal/




The ATF likes to change their mind. So today we have done it again and this time we mean it. Many have asked whether pulling the trigger on a firearm more than once in sequential order is illegal. It in fact is. Using Merriam’s Dictionary we look at the word “Design”. By pulling the trigger more than once in sequential order with a split time of less than 2 seconds, you in fact have “re-designed” the weapon and it would be considered “Fully Automatic” or a “Machine Gun” by definition which would result in an obvious NFA Law Violation. The fact that your finger itself is a “mechanical” addition to the weapon confirms this. You would also be guilty of Manufacturing since you added your finger to the trigger and of course Excise Tax Evasion the moment you hand this newly redesigned and re-manufactured firearm to your friend.

[hurley842002]

And here come all the sub 16" uppers for sale, that were going to be mated to sig braces...

[Irving]

And here come all the sub 16" uppers for sale, that were going to be mated to sig braces...

Hell yeah, bring it on!

[68Charger]

And here come all the sub 16" uppers for sale, that were going to be mated to sig braces...


Hell yeah, bring it on!

no kidding- how many calibers can I collect (.300BLK, .458 SOCOM are especially good in a short barrel)

[mtnrider]

Already seen several people dumping their braces already today.

[Jamnanc]

I can have as many short uppers as I want as long as I have a pistol lower to go with them right?

[Skully]

I can have as many short uppers as I want as long as I have a pistol lower to go with them right?

Write the ATF a letter and ask?






Just being a smart ass.[Coffee]

Dont think you will have a problem.

[mcantar18c]

I don't really see how this "open letter" is much more than someone's opinion. Federal law has not changed.

[Skully]

I don't really see how this "open letter" is much more than someone's opinion. Federal law has not changed.

More precise an "Interpretation" of the Federal Law in relation to the product's intent by the ATF who oversees and enforces the law.

:)

Yes I believe you are correct , nothing has changed, the SIG brace is made and intended as an "Arm Brace" for "Pistols" has been since it hit the shelves.

It is amusing how many people are "dumping" the Sig Brace now.............. Did you get your hands on that one Mason in the for sale thread?

[brutal]

Let me know when an AAC 9" 300BLK barrel shows up somewhere.

[brutal]

And the winner:

55125

Great, now they'll be coming after the rail gun I just finished building.

No doubt, they will someday redefine the "explosion" part of the definition of firearm.

[Hotchef181818]

That open letter that just came out is the same thing as what was given to SIG When they decided to market it. If you are using it as intended you're still fine. The new letter states you can't shoulder it anymore, reversing the previous opinion letters.

There is no "federal law" that allows using the brace in a way other than "intended" by the design.

Not it a chance I'm taking right now.




I don't really see how this "open letter" is much more than someone's opinion. Federal law has not changed.

[mcantar18c]

More precise an "Interpretation" of the Federal Law in relation to the product's intent by the ATF who oversees and enforces the law.

:)

Yes I believe you are correct , nothing has changed, the SIG brace is made and intended as an "Arm Brace" for "Pistols" has been since it hit the shelves.

It is amusing how many people are "dumping" the Sig Brace now.............. Did you get your hands on that one Mason in the for sale thread?
Not that one, but I did get a hold of one today. If people want to unload them for great prices, I'm not complaining.


That open letter that just came out is the same thing as what was given to SIG When they decided to market it. If you are using it as intended you're still fine. The new letter states you can't shoulder it anymore, reversing the previous opinion letters.

There is no "federal law" that allows using the brace in a way other than "intended" by the design.

Not it a chance I'm taking right now.

There's no federal law disallowing it either. Is one on the way? Maybe. But until then, this "open letter" is nothing but an official opinion.

Federal law says that a firearm cannot be classified by it's use. Sticking a 1911 against your shoulder doesn't make it a rifle in the eyes of the law, nor does a shotgun become a pistol when fired with one hand. The ATF can *say* whatever they damn well please... I will keep following the laws on the books, and not concern myself with the changing *opinions* of any person or entity.

[Rooskibar03]

Anyone wanna buy a NIB brace [hahhah-no].

I do wish I knew how easy to was to efile a form 1 before it bought it though.

[brutal]

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL/p/ENHANCED-ARAK-PISTOL-CHEEK-REST-KIT-x3607311.htm

[WETWRKS]

So in the end there are nearly 0 actual pistols in the US. Almost everyone has placed a second hand on their pistol while firing it which makes them an AOW...at least based on this ruling.

[Big John]

While I get its too early to "panic" about this, my concern would be for the law abiding individual that would be arrested for possessing a "perceived SBR" given this "new" letter. If the person were to be held till they could post bond, getting an attorney, paying for the attorney, time off of work to defend themselves. Sure it could be a "landmark" ruling but that person who actually goes through this battle what would it do to their life in the interim. And if he/she won, good for all of us, but I don't see how they'd be able to recoup all that money spent not to mention, potentially job loss, home life.. etc...

Wasn't this already a concern? This is why all the "letter writers" print out the ATF form. If one thinks for one moment that a letter you printed out, without your name on it, is going to stop an overzealous cop for hauling you away, I've got some very bad news for you.

[Big John]

These people are the same ones asking for clarification on their solvent trap. Some folks don't know when to leave well enough alone. Personally, if they're that unsure or stupid. They have no business owning Anything Firearm related.I could not agree with you more Kazoo...

[Big John]

Anyone wanna buy a NIB brace [hahhah-no].

I do wish I knew how easy to was to efile a form 1 before it bought it though.The form 1 is easy. Crossing state lines or carrying locked and loaded not so much.

I'm off to other sites to go lowball letter writers for their brace[LOL][shithitsfan][mlp][panic]

[kidicarus13]

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL/p/ENHANCED-ARAK-PISTOL-CHEEK-REST-KIT-x3607311.htm

Alternate product, same ruling... http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/2675/atf_response_letter_for_ar_pistol_pack.pdf

"...a pistol that has an AR-type buffer tube orsimilar component assembled to it, which consequently allows for the installation of asaddle/cheek enhancement accessory, is not classified as a SBR; nor unlawful to possess.However, if a pistol assembled with an AR-type buffer tube or similar component; whichin tum, redesigns the subject AR-type pistol to be designed or redesigned andconsequently intended to be fired from the shoulder; an NFA weapon as defined in 26U.S.C. $ 5845(a)(3); has been made."

[MED]

This whole things sounds like a trap to me. The ATF gave this thing a thumbs up resulting in a lot of people purchasing the brace, and now they are revoking that approval. I have no doubt that some people won't see the reversal, and continue to (mis)use the device at the range.

[Great-Kazoo]

This whole things sounds like a trap to me. The ATF gave this thing a thumbs up resulting in a lot of people purchasing the brace, and now they are revoking that approval. I have no doubt that some people won't see the reversal, and continue to (mis)use the device at the range.

You go to a fudd range, maybe. Up here in weld and Larimer county, not happening. FWIW the ATF isn't revoking Anything. Merely clarifying AGAIN what the brace was approved as. Nothing more or less

[Wulf202]

If you're that worried just get a cane tip.

Once you get the nod stop asking for permission

[Great-Kazoo]

If you're that worried just get a cane tip.

Once you get the nod stop asking for permission

AGAIN AND AGAIN.............................. Dear ATF Technology Dept. [facepalm]

[cstone]

I skip asking BATFE and just ask permission from The Great Kazoo [Flower]

[Great-Kazoo]

I skip asking BATFE and just ask permission from The Great Kazoo [Flower]

I even signed the letter.

[KestrelBike]

via ENDO blog: A nice little video summary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNBbXAoWRz0

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2015/01/21/atf-and-the-sig-sauer-sb15-brace/

[Circuits]

It's OK. I have a permit.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3a/3a7fe68874a321b711daef95b38f4075814f19e995d5624f8a ed48950f024590.jpg

[kidicarus13]

It's OK. I have a permit.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3a/3a7fe68874a321b711daef95b38f4075814f19e995d5624f8a ed48950f024590.jpg
That's funny

[WETWRKS]

Sig is looking at challenging the change in decision

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-statement-sig-sauer-atf-pistol-brace-ruling/

[zimagold]

Looks like they are starting to get cheap, people unloading them?

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/sig-sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.html

Edit: New, $89.99 for those that don't want to click through.

[Great-Kazoo]

Looks like they are starting to get cheap, people ( with no backbone) unloading them?

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/sig-sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.html

Edit: New, $89.99 for those that don't want to click through.

FIFY. It's a panic sell . Myself i'm NFA heavy, but may buy one at the bargain sale price for a project. Buying off paper is the way to go, when applicable.

[Dave]

Looks like they are starting to get cheap, people unloading them?

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/sig-sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.html

Edit: New, $89.99 for those that don't want to click through.
Wish they had the SB47's for that price.

[Sixgun]

I think the ATF just wants the stamp money. I bet form 1 stamp sales are down. [sheepshagger]

[Great-Kazoo]

I think the ATF just wants the stamp money. I bet form 1 stamp sales are down. [sheepshagger]

You haven't seen my CC statement from last month. I'm thinking of getting one of those new ATF Visa cards. One card, Form 1 ready when you are. WHAT'S IN YOUR TRUST?

[WETWRKS]

So...it may or may not be illegal based on how you use it. Can we apply the same process to unregistered machine guns? If I never fire it in full auto is it now legal to own?

[Brian]

I think the ATF just wants the stamp money. I bet form 1 stamp sales are down. [sheepshagger]


Know you're joking but it was interesting to read that ATF newsletter a couple days ago. They're receiving approx 20k forms per month. They didn't break down the forms by type though.

[Great-Kazoo]

Know you're joking but it was interesting to read that ATF newsletter a couple days ago. They're receiving approx 20k forms per month. They didn't break down the forms by type though.

Considering the turn around time on a F1 is averaging 28 - 35 days, that's damn good. NOW if they'd only get the Form 4 back up and running.

[Aloha_Shooter]

On the one hand, I can see people being upset an an apparently arbitrary change in the "law" (or rather, interpretation of the law).

On the other hand, just what do you expect from so many people poking their fingers in the ATF's eye by talking and showing pictures of how they used their "pistol" as a SBR by putting the brace on? I'm all for pushing to change stupid laws but deliberately breaking said laws and posting pictures as well as discourse of the transgression is beyond stupid. Want to get mad? Get mad of at the dummies posting their accounts and pictures.

I can think of a couple very common items that the ATF isn't going to get bent out of shape over someone buying but a few hundred people posting pictures or videos online of what happens when the two are combined will definitely get their attention -- about like how you could no longer buy a bunch of Sudafed over-the-counter after it became a popular item for making crystal meth. I'm not naming the ingredients solely because the chemical reaction is uncontrolled and VERY fast and I don't want anyone getting hurt.

[crays]

On the one hand, I can see people being upset an an apparently arbitrary change in the "law" (or rather, interpretation of the law).

On the other hand, just what do you expect from so many people poking their fingers in the ATF's eye by talking and showing pictures of how they used their "pistol" as a SBR by putting the brace on? I'm all for pushing to change stupid laws but deliberately breaking said laws and posting pictures as well as discourse of the transgression is beyond stupid. Want to get mad? Get mad of at the dummies posting their accounts and pictures.

I can think of a couple very common items that the ATF isn't going to get bent out of shape over someone buying but a few hundred people posting pictures or videos online of what happens when the two are combined will definitely get their attention -- about like how you could no longer buy a bunch of Sudafed over-the-counter after it became a popular item for making crystal meth. I'm not naming the ingredients solely because the chemical reaction is uncontrolled and VERY fast and I don't want anyone getting hurt.

Babysit those which need babysat. Otherwise, relax. Getting wound up over a situation you do not control, only leads your to being wound up over a situation in which you have no control.

[Dave_L]

Considering the turn around time on a F1 is averaging 28 - 35 days, that's damn good. NOW if they'd only get the Form 4 back up and running.

Longest 28-35 days of my life so far...

[brutal]

Longest 28-35 days of my life so far...

Just get on the 30 day revolving stamp plan.



Sent from my subconscious mind.

[Great-Kazoo]

Just get on the 30 day revolving stamp plan.



Sent from my subconscious mind.

Isn't everyone ?