View Full Version : Thought Experiment: 4 yr college ed for all
GilpinGuy
01-25-2015, 03:50
PBDSI (Posted before? Didn't see it)
With all of the talk of "free, free, free!!!!" community college to all lately, why not think about this? Seems like the next step.
What if a 4 year college education was guaranteed to every US citizen who wanted it for "free" by the Federal Government (well, the States would be FORCED to kick in at least 25% of the cost, of course). ANY major/minor qualifies - can't discriminate ya know.
What would the consequences be?
Keep it to "what if's" and not "it wouldn't happen because of's" please. (futile, I know...)
Flooding of major and minor college\community college, some ( not all ) may take advantage of the system and waste the fund that another could use to better their careers, tax hike ( maybe ) , but in the end, it would improve our economy and lower the poverty rate, thus increase income, lower crime, etc. I do like the idea of free education.
So, the job market would be flooded with people with college degrees? That would be awesome. There would be so much competition for white collar jobs it would push the wages for those jobs down. Meanwhile, there would be less and less competition in the blue collar market since everyone has a college degree and is pursuing other careers so the lack of competition in those markets would drive wages up. Kind of falls in line with Obama's dream of income equality. No thanks.
Next thing you know nobody would want to go to college and get a degree when they could go work the oil fields and make more money. Oh, wait. That's kind of how things are these days anyways.
I heard a news story a while back that teachers were in pretty high demand in areas with a lot of oil and gas exploration and production. Seems they have all been quitting and going to work in the field because the pay is so much better.
So, the job market would be flooded with people with college degrees? That would be awesome. There would be so much competition for white collar jobs it would push the wages for those jobs down. Meanwhile, there would be less and less competition in the blue collar market since everyone has a college degree and is pursuing other careers so the lack of competition in those markets would drive wages up. Kind of falls in line with Obama's dream of income equality. No thanks.
Next thing you know nobody would want to go to college and get a degree when they could go work the oil fields and make more money. Oh, wait. That's kind of how things are these days anyways.
I heard a news story a while back that teachers were in pretty high demand in areas with a lot of oil and gas exploration and production. Seems they have all been quitting and going to work in the field because the pay is so much better.
Of course, a lot of things in my last two paragraphs might change real soon with oil prices where they are.
Bailey Guns
01-25-2015, 07:43
Flooding of major and minor college\community college, some ( not all ) may take advantage of the system and waste the fund that another could use to better their careers, tax hike ( maybe ) , but in the end, it would improve our economy and lower the poverty rate, thus increase income, lower crime, etc. I do like the idea of free education.
[hahhah-no]
Do you really think there is such a thing as a "free" education from the government? Seriously?
Got to love the government. Free education for everyone. Probably don't even have to be a citizen of our country. But if you're a disabled veteran who needs to see a doctor good luck trying to get an appointment any time in the near future.
Free eduducation indoctrination.
Fixed it for you.
HoneyBadger
01-25-2015, 08:58
It was thoroughly covered in the last "free college" thead, but there are already too many people with worthless college degrees and not enough skilled tradesman.
Nothing in the world is free. The government forcibly takes from one and gives to another. If you or I did this, we'd be thrown in jail. The government calls it "taxes".
I cant imagine how any rational person could be for free...anything from the government at this point. WE have an over 18 trillion dollar national debt. Are people so stupid that they could think that we should double or triple our national debt and that it would some how work out well? This kind of thinking will be the literal end of our country.
Exactly.
I am constantly fighting to stay above the water. Everything has increased since Obamy has entered office.
I can't save, I am taxed to death, regulatory fee's (Gas, electricity) Health Insurance increases has been a huge factor. My wife has no health insurance now, my job wont add her since ACA went into effect. I can add the kids, but spouse no, we cant afford insurance for her even through a health exchange because we are married and we make too much money. My rent since having to sell my home has gone up $300 in 2 1/2 years.
I am sick of hearing "free" this and that from government. I want the government out of money, out of my kids education, and out of my health care. This "free" shit comes from somewhere in the forms of higher taxes on income, products and goods etc.
The Colonist's revolted against the King for a lot less than this.
[Coffee]
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2015, 09:29
You have to want to go to college. Not just be able to go to college. Might as well offer everyone free movie tickets. I had free college courses through work. I'd wager 1/3 of the students there were freeloading, busy texting or didn't show up. Based on my personal observation while attending said classes.
IF the .gov were to offer said opportunity. Who will not be surprised when past students file a class action so they can be dismissed for their student loans.
Which IMO is the end game here.
68Charger
01-25-2015, 09:53
Well said, Jim... I was going to make that point (or very similar)
Something that is not EARNED is not valued... I have seen it time and again where someone is given something only to destroy it or squander it.
Even if someone is given a scholarship, that scholarship has to be earned...
With something like an education (or indoctrination, which is probably why the admin wants more people to attend liberal institutions under the guise of education), there is much more that must be vested- you only get out of it what you put into it.
How about we just get the kids through high school first. Lots and lots that drop out for various reasons. Then we can worry about college.
68Charger
01-25-2015, 10:01
To your point, Danimal- a person could pursue knowledge without going to a college (and having the gov't pay for it)
What we would need to improve the overall education of any society is to raise peoples' desire for knowledge... the rest would follow- they would seek education on their own...
But providing free "education" to people that do not desire it (other than a desire for "free stuff") is just throwing away money, and will have other consequences (as mentioned in other posts)
All the college education isnt going to fix air conditioning. Cars. Production and manufacturing. Plumbers. Electricians. Carpenters.
wctriumph
01-25-2015, 11:53
If it were free, the only teachers would be communists that would work for lower wages mandated by the .gov running the program.
People on welfare with a degree. Having a degree will be devalued if it becomes common. The people that actually work for a living will be further burdened by having even more of what they earn being redistributed to the non-productive. That's what I see from it.
What was actually gained by higher education years ago seems to have been socially engineered out of academia. I'm not surprised that so many of the real creative and productive minds are college dropouts.
KestrelBike
01-25-2015, 12:11
I bet it's kind of like the military draft. The overall force is weakened through unmotivated troops.
The paper requirement to get a job is inflated because now what excuse does a person have not to have a college degree.
The college degree is severely watered down, because everyone has one but not necessarily has the skills that a degree once meant.
As the nation's least-motivated and capable students are failing each college level course they took, the schools must water down both the content and the passing quality so that everyone doesn't flunk out. So everyone will suffer catering to the lowest common denominator.
Just another part of what makes obummer such a worthless F'ing failure.
How about we just get the kids through high school first. Lots and lots that drop out for various reasons. Then we can worry about college.
Amen, brother.
T. B. Turner
01-25-2015, 12:44
Unfortunately I think this clip of Judge Judy exemplifies what free education can tend to pay for. This 21 year old man is like talking to a little boy. Even if he gets his degree, he is not mature enough to get hired anywhere.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDrwskLYCrY
We can tell that this is only a theoretical debate, because if it were a real one, someone would have already tried to eliminate the opinions of those who've already graduated from college. You know, for the children.
I would be for some form of "free" higher education paid for by the government only if they prove hardship. By free I mean money taken from those that produce and given to those that don't so we can run the national debt on our grandchildren even higher. The people getting it free will have to choose a vocation and they would be required to pick something in the blue collar field if we the tax payers are paying. If they want to be upper management in a company creating video games they need to pay for there own education.
I would like to see most higher education fields be held accountable after graduation similar to professional engineering. Once you get a degree you are required to work under the tutelage of a P.E. for at least four years then you can test for the P.E. license. The testing process is administrated by the people in that field, the Professional Engineers. Only when you have demonstrated to your peers a proficiency in your field of endeavor can you proceed to the next level. And you answer to this board if you appear to be veering off coarse during your career.
Zundfolge
01-25-2015, 13:48
When everyone is special, nobody is.
That will be the end result. A college education will be virtually worthless.
That and everyone will of course get more women's and minority studies, more classes in white privilege, more classes on the evils of America and her Constitution and more Marxist indoctrination.
When everyone is special, nobody is.
That will be the end result. A college education will be virtually worthless.
Would you say that right now, a high school diploma is worthless?
boomerhc9
01-25-2015, 14:22
[hahhah-no]
Do you really think there is such a thing as a "free" education from the government? Seriously?
yeah! mandatory re-education. FREE!
HoneyBadger
01-25-2015, 14:30
I bet it's kind of like the military draft. The overall force is weakened through unmotivated troops.
The paper requirement to get a job is inflated because now what excuse does a person have not to have a college degree.
The college degree is severely watered down, because everyone has one but not necessarily has the skills that a degree once meant.
As the nation's least-motivated and capable students are failing each college level course they took, the schools must water down both the content and the passing quality so that everyone doesn't flunk out. So everyone will suffer catering to the lowest common denominator.
Just another part of what makes obummer such a worthless F'ing failure.
Very good points.
HoneyBadger
01-25-2015, 14:39
what is it with FREE and paid for by the government???
its not fucking free. Americans are paying for it. maybe its not you, but somebody is paying for it. Why should anyone give you anything for free? WHY? Many people with no kids are paying already into the system. Thereby giving you a free babysitter for 12 years. How much more FREE shit do you all want? I already pay for a library that is 30 miles away that we will never use, a school system my kids will never be in, a community college that we dont use. BUT, hey more free shit would be great right? As long as its paid for by the government.
I cant believe this many people think that the government just magically makes money. (and I dont mean printing it, because it comes from a private bank) nothing is free.
the government already cant take care of itself, cant run medicaid, cant run welfare programs, cant run the education system, and somehow they can provide more school and get that right?
most of what you pay on your vehicle registration goes to the schools. property taxes go to the schools. Yet, they still cant get it done without asking for more money every year.
http://media0.giphy.com/media/10xZU9b7JBx14s/200.gif
Zundfolge
01-25-2015, 14:54
Would you say that right now, a high school diploma is worthless?
It's getting there. More and more jobs that didn't used to require a college degree now do. I'm a graphic designer with more than 20 years experience and in the last few years I've noticed that most graphic design jobs I see advertised list a degree as a requirement, not just "preferred".
Bailey Guns
01-25-2015, 14:55
what is it with FREE and paid for by the government??? its not fucking free. Americans are paying for it.
Apparently some people need a "free government education" in BASIC economics to understand that. Unbelievable so many otherwise rational people jump on the "free" bandwagon.
It's getting there. More and more jobs that didn't used to require a college degree now do. I'm a graphic designer with more than 20 years experience and in the last few years I've noticed that most graphic design jobs I see advertised list a degree as a requirement, not just "preferred".
So if a high school diploma is worthless, how easy is it to get a job without one?
68Charger
01-25-2015, 16:07
It's getting there. More and more jobs that didn't used to require a college degree now do. I'm a graphic designer with more than 20 years experience and in the last few years I've noticed that most graphic design jobs I see advertised list a degree as a requirement, not just "preferred".
So if a high school diploma is worthless, how easy is it to get a job without one?
This ^^^^^ more jobs requiring a college degree doesn't devalue a high school diploma, since it's a pre-requisite.
It means a college degree is worth more than it used to.
Every one of those jobs that require a college degree also require a high school diploma, right?
what is it with FREE and paid for by the government???
its not fucking free. Americans are paying for it. maybe its not you, but somebody is paying for it. Why should anyone give you anything for free? WHY? Many people with no kids are paying already into the system. Thereby giving you a free babysitter for 12 years. How much more FREE shit do you all want? I already pay for a library that is 30 miles away that we will never use, a school system my kids will never be in, a community college that we dont use. BUT, hey more free shit would be great right? As long as its paid for by the government.
I cant believe this many people think that the government just magically makes money. (and I dont mean printing it, because it comes from a private bank) nothing is free.
the government already cant take care of itself, cant run medicaid, cant run welfare programs, cant run the education system, and somehow they can provide more school and get that right?
most of what you pay on your vehicle registration goes to the schools. property taxes go to the schools. Yet, they still cant get it done without asking for more money every year.
We see eye-to-eye...Bravo man!!!!
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2015, 17:14
So if a high school diploma is worthless, how easy is it to get a job without one?
As long as the O&G industry needs people, very. IMO unless Diploma is specified , a lot of jobs are more interested in an applicant who can pass both Drug & BG check. From info given to me by 3 business owners (yes a paltry amount) the number of people who apply, KNOWING they cannot pass a drug screen is staggering. The applicant acts like the screen is somehow an invasion of their lifestyle that has no bearing on the job applied for. Does it? maybe. One of the business' is for OTR drivers. OOPS that invasion of lifestyle does matter.
Bailey Guns
01-25-2015, 17:58
Trucking companies are desperate for drivers who can pass a drug test & bgc with a good MVR. With just a few years experience a CDL-A holder with a clean background, good MVR and no drug history can get a very good paying job without working over-the-road. I've never had a potential employer for a driving job even axe me about education unless it had to do with driving.
Very little that is "free" is worth more than you pay for it, and most people value such things accordingly. A "free" degree would be of little value to those that receive them, and less value to potential employers.
Eggysrun
01-25-2015, 19:45
Haven't read much of the thread, but I'd much rather see the money spent for college degrees spent on elementry and high schools in our poverished areas of this country. EDUCATION is the key of getting people out of poverty, but it's poverty itself limiting the potential of these kids. When you've got high schools with a high failure/non-graduating % you've set these kids up for failure. It's such a horrible cycle these kids go through and it'll take at least 2-3 generations of really investing into these areas to see some results because of how messed up the areas are.
Poverty level, unemployment, crime....they ALL correlate to the level and success of education.
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2015, 19:57
Haven't read much of the thread, but I'd much rather see the money spent for college degrees spent on elementry and high schools in our poverished areas of this country. EDUCATION is the key of getting people out of poverty, but it's poverty itself limiting the potential of these kids. When you've got high schools with a high failure/non-graduating % you've set these kids up for failure. It's such a horrible cycle these kids go through and it'll take at least 2-3 generations of really investing into these areas to see some results because of how messed up the areas are.
Poverty level, unemployment, crime....they ALL correlate to the level and success of education.
Sorry but that's a false statement. ENTITLEMENTS/ LIBERALS, keep the lower income areas impoverished. NOT the education system. The drop out rate / failure to graduate isn't due to the teachers. it's due to the ghetto mentality handed down since the 60's.
The amount of "children" who get paid $$$ keeping an eye out for LE, moving product from point A - B. Having parent, aunt,. grandmother raise the children while dad?? is in the wind, jail or the morgue. Mom... well she's waiting for Uncle Sam's check to get there so her EBT card can try out that new beverage EVERYONE'S talking about. OR swap some food chits for one last taste of dope, before she gives rehab a try. After all her 10yr old needs a role model, stable household OR the judge will throw the kids ass back in juvie, AGAIN.
Rucker61
01-25-2015, 21:21
Poverty level, unemployment, crime....they ALL correlate to the level and success of education. Sorry but that's a false statement. ENTITLEMENTS/ LIBERALS, keep the lower income areas impoverished. NOT the education system. The drop out rate / failure to graduate isn't due to the teachers. it's due to the ghetto mentality handed down since the 60's.
Correlation does not imply cause and effect, although it's a necessary condition. If the data says two items are correlated, then they are. I believe you make a good point, but I don't necessarily believe it's the only cause. It can't be, not for every single person.
Who said that going to school for four years will result in a degree?
Having a degree is not a guarantee for getting a job.
If someone needs something, they work for it. Consider this a four second education and I'm donating it for free. No tax dollars were expended in providing this education. [Flower]
do people who say we need more money into education realize we spend waaaaaay more on education than any other nation? the real problem is our education system is too soft on people and passes them anyway and parents aren't nearly as involved as they used to be. teachers can only teach so much in class. the kid has to do homework and have it reinforced at home. and if they aren't at grade level they need to stay until they are at grade level. my wife is a teacher and sees third graders with first grade reading levels pass on. its nuts.
hurley842002
01-25-2015, 22:08
That is where the problem come in. The current education system is built around subdivided areas of expertise that do not exist in the real world. Even engineering and high demand fields suffer from a lack of perspective and application to real world employment. I just finished with an embedded systems programming class last semester. There were a ton of smart students in that class, but during the final presentation it struck me how dumb mechanically they were. Just finding materials to make a mechanical system seemed to be beyond their grasp. The programming was top notch given the platform that we were working, but you would never know because the mechanical systems that were used to display their projects were very poor. Not all of them were this way, but quite a few were and it really highlighted the lack of perspective for application.
I don't disagree with you at all, but tell this to the law enforcement field. The very reason I resigned recently from a 10 year career in corrections, so that I can go back to school and make myself more marketable.
You see, it doesn't matter that I know how to communicate with people very well, including the worst most difficult people you can think of. It doesn't matter that I know the stresses of the job, and what it's like to be in the "trenches", folks with zero experience and degrees are getting the jobs.
Many of the jobs I applied for, both in my agency and outside my agency, the bulk of applicants had at least bachelor's degrees, and many had masters. Some of the agencies I applied for work off of a point system, where you get way ahead out of the gate for having a degree, but nothing for experience.
I assume it's the large amount of folks with degrees, who couldn't get jobs in the field they went to school for, due to the economy. When you can make $70k a year after a couple years, what's not to love? The trade off? Employees who never had a desire to work in law enforcement, and don't know the first thing about civil service, and serving THE PEOPLE.
Sorry, veered off track a bit.
HoneyBadger
01-25-2015, 22:11
I think if implemented it will delay the maturity of children as well. E.g. still stay at home and go to free college, it basically makes the system K-16 with kids not even thinking of supporting themselves until they are over 22yo.
Coming from someone who has been to college... I think this statement carries a lot of validity.
I did not read the entire situation about this, but Yahoo fiance said, they want to start TAXING EDU IRA, 528 types of plans.
So, they are taking taxes out of people who sacrifice to save some college fund and distribute it to people who did not save $ for a college?
NO!
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2015, 22:44
I did not read the entire situation about this, but Yahoo fiance said, they want to start TAXING EDU IRA, 528 types of plans.
So, they are taking taxes out of people who sacrifice to save some college fund and distribute it to people who did not save $ for a college?
NO!
One more taking to fund entitlements, AGAIN.
PBDSI (Posted before? Didn't see it)
With all of the talk of "free, free, free!!!!" community college to all lately, why not think about this? Seems like the next step.
What if a 4 year college education was guaranteed to every US citizen who wanted it for "free" by the Federal Government (well, the States would be FORCED to kick in at least 25% of the cost, of course). ANY major/minor qualifies - can't discriminate ya know.
What would the consequences be?
Keep it to "what if's" and not "it wouldn't happen because of's" please. (futile, I know...)
Sorry. I did not read this before my last comment.
What would the consequences be?
In my opinion, there will be another huge increase in Money Supply into the economy. Employer will start filtering out "free college" just like how they are filtering "institutes" and online schools. Supply of labor (qualified or non-qualified graduates) will flood the resume, and it will be harder for HR as well.
As for state level (as original Q), Forcing state to pay 25% would most likely require higher state level taxes. We can probably see higher than 5+%? Sales tax will increase from this as well. This can also make an domino effect to employers on employment taxes.
I understand there are lots of smaller countries which has lower taxes than we do, and offers free education, free health care , and etc, and are successful. Key word is "SMALL" countries. I am tired of some opposite party people who keep comparing us with other top G13 countries who has far less populations (w/ higher density). WE have population of over 300mil? We are comparing it with countries with less than 80mil with much higher population density than we do. We are not Singapore, Monaco, Luxembourg, San Marino, UAE or others.
I did not read the entire situation about this, but Yahoo fiance said, they want to start TAXING EDU IRA, 528 types of plans.
So, they are taking taxes out of people who sacrifice to save some college fund and distribute it to people who did not save $ for a college?
NO!
One more taking to fund entitlements, AGAIN.
What are you trying to say by statement above? Fund entitlements?
All I said was, it is not good to tax the personal edu funds they saved up to pay for other's free edu.
Those personal edu funds are not entitlement. It is sacrifice kids and parents made to save up for college fund.
What are you trying to say by statement above? Fund entitlements?
All I said was, it is not good to tax the personal edu funds they saved up to pay for other's free edu.
Those personal edu funds are not entitlement. It is sacrifice kids and parents made to save up for college fund.
Kazoo is agreeing with you.
Aloha_Shooter
01-25-2015, 23:54
I'm a big believer in education but it just gets worse the more government is involved. 4 year colleges have just become indoctrination centers for Marxist/anti-Western propaganda and the liberal agenda. I'd rather see a return of the apprentice system of the 19th century than this equine fecal matter.
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2015, 23:56
Kazoo is agreeing with you.
This
ACTUALLY what i'm saying is fuck free shit. I had to pay, my wife had to pay, most if not everyone here had to pay. Why now free shit for education? Nothing but trying to find something the American people will remember him by, besides being an Islamist apologist, racist fuck up.
Legacy my ass. Maybe if he does commercials, ALA DEALIN DOUG style, for Subaru
FREE COLLEGE? That like Purple Drank ?
Speaking of community college, I may have to take some Expository writing and/or some Eng Lit reading courses then.....
[oops]
Yahoo Finance Poll
http://i58.tinypic.com/2rp5jfd.jpg
Kazoo is agreeing with you.
This
ACTUALLY what i'm saying is fuck free shit. I had to pay, my wife had to pay, most if not everyone here had to pay. Why now free shit for education? Nothing but trying to find something the American people will remember him by, besides being an Islamist apologist, racist fuck up.
Legacy my ass. Maybe if he does commercials, ALA DEALIN DOUG style, for Subaru
FREE COLLEGE? That like Purple Drank ?
HoneyBadger
01-26-2015, 09:15
http://thefederalistpapers.integratedmarket.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Government_Is_Fiction.jpg
Great-Kazoo
01-26-2015, 09:30
http://thefederalistpapers.integratedmarket.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Government_Is_Fiction.jpg
And this my friends ends the thread.
I'm a veteran who has gone ahead and got an MBA and supervise skilled workers in the medical device industry, but in my business we now can't find individuals with basic skills like math nor can we find engineers. When the baby boomers retire our manufacturing industry is going to be in a lot of trouble. But not a free educationI paid for mine along with my work paid for part of it I had earned the hard way. And it's worth a lot more to me because of that.
Perseverance, truth and loyalty
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