Massad Ayoob "Lethal Force Aftermath" interview and reloads for self defense in a trial [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

GilpinGuy

01-28-2015, 21:57

I thought about posting this in the reloading forum, but thought it might get a little more exposure here.

I just listened to an interview with Massad Ayoob about "Lethal Force Aftermath" from 2013. As usual, he was insightful.

One thing that he stated really surprised me regarding the use of hand loaded ammo for self defense, and GSR evidence in particular, during a trial if you defend yourself and go to trial because of it.

He stated that "Historically, the courts have not accepted the gun owners word for what ammunition was...exactly what load was in the gun. The Prosecutor could say, 'Well, ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, he literally manufactured the evidence. How do we know he didn't make his one special death bullet with it's own unique characteristics that was designed to throw the detectives off the trail of truth?' And I have yet to see a case where the courts have accepted, for gun shot residue testing purposes, the word or the records of the citizen who used it."

Interesting stuff and something to consider if you reload. Hear the interview here (http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/episode-1094-massad-ayoob-on-lethal-force-aftermath#podPressPlayerSpace_1) and skip ahead to about 57:20 to the relevant part. The entire interview is worth listening to though.

Great-Kazoo

01-28-2015, 22:29

He's been saying this forever. The consensus is not in favor one way , or the other. If i'm on the way home from range or a competition. Need to defend myself, by using letal force. the last thing on my mind is, what will the jury think about the ammo used. IF (key word) IF the DA decides to take a "self defense" shooting to court. There's other things happening besides what ammo you used.

GilpinGuy

01-28-2015, 23:53

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

Great-Kazoo

01-29-2015, 00:23

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

Which one? We use factory test proven rounds, the spouse insist on factory for pd guns in home and on the town. That's her comfort level, i make her happy.
Not that it should be of any concern to anyone else. Like i said, IF it goes to trial , you have other issues. Now the civil suite guaranteed to follow. That's where it may make a difference.

It may factor in based on which state, county, city you reside. There's an anti-gun DA. The political climate is also anti-gun. Wouldn't matter if the now deceased perp had slashed your kids throat, when you dropped him / them. You're fuked.

Either way you're in to an atty for an easy $30 - 40K up front.

Irving

01-29-2015, 00:26

Yes, but what about your bedside gun?

Depends on how easily the prosecutor can convince the jury that you loaded up a special round designed to murder people, and planned on going on a killing spree in your bedroom. I guess that the overall context of the entire event will weigh more heavily toward the conclusion than the fact that something was reloaded.

boomerhc9

01-29-2015, 03:08

interesting stuff

HoneyBadger

01-29-2015, 08:38

Even if you think his course of argument is invalid, I think his conclusion is relevant. Walking around town with handloads for self defense is just begging for a civil suit.

Hoser

01-29-2015, 08:43

If Ayoob told me the sky was blue, I would go check.

Great-Kazoo

01-29-2015, 10:09

Even if you think his course of argument is invalid, I think his conclusion is relevant. Walking around town with handloads for self defense is just begging for a civil suit.

You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.
One item i forgot to touch on regarding reloads, not sure about everyone else. EVERYTHING i load is to factory / mfg specs. PLUS they are at the low - medium end of data. There's nothing hot rod, death dealing in any of the manuals OR mfg on line loads. Sue me, sue them, which they will in today's litigious society.

Slightly OT regarding lawsuits. Talking with an ins rep for coverage on someones business. They said the manufacturer is just a small portion of a lawsuit. They opposing team will go after the insured, the mfg of tooling, parts / individual components of said finished product. Going for the throat of the deepest pockets.

DHC

01-29-2015, 11:19

You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.
One item i forgot to touch on regarding reloads, not sure about everyone else. EVERYTHING i load is to factory / mfg specs. PLUS they are at the low - medium end of data. There's nothing hot rod, death dealing in any of the manuals OR mfg on line loads. Sue me, sue them, which they will in today's litigious society.

Slightly OT regarding lawsuits. Talking with an ins rep for coverage on someones business. They said the manufacturer is just a small portion of a lawsuit. They opposing team will go after the insured, the mfg of tooling, parts / individual components of said finished product. Going for the throat of the deepest pockets.

>>You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.<<

Perhaps, BUT, the Colorado statute also includes immunity from civil action - ref C.R.S. 18-1-704.5 (4):

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

FYI

Wulf202

01-29-2015, 12:31

Somewhere I have the list of cases where the prosecution used handloads against the defense. It goes back to the 70's

sellersm

01-29-2015, 12:39

If Ayoob told me the sky was blue, I would go check.

^This. From what I've read, he was only involved in 1 case where this GSR from handloads was an issue, and it wasn't in the context in which you'd think... I'm not concerned about it, bigger fish to fry in this day and age.

HoneyBadger

01-29-2015, 12:43

>>You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.<<

Perhaps, BUT, the Colorado statute also includes immunity from civil action - ref C.R.S. 18-1-704.5 (4):

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

FYI
Thanks for sharing that

Somewhere I have the list of cases where the prosecution used handloads against the defense. It goes back to the 70's

I would be really interested to see some actual court cases so I can stop spouting useless speculation. If you could post this list, that would be great.

Great-Kazoo

01-29-2015, 16:10

>>You're going to be sued in civil court, no matter what.<<

Perhaps, BUT, the Colorado statute also includes immunity from civil action - ref C.R.S. 18-1-704.5 (4):

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.

FYI

I was replying to HB's post. You are protected where the use of force was in a home / dwelling. HB was referring to out in public. Something not covered under
C.R.S. 18-1-704.5 (4)

Duman

01-29-2015, 18:24

Well, this is the first I've ever heard of him NOT called, "Massage A-Boob".

Learn sumpin' new everyday....

tim-adams

01-29-2015, 21:01

I have been taught from my first personal defense with a firearm course, on your defense firearm use these key points to minimize your exposure and liability..

do not modify the trigger
shoot factory ammo recommended to you from a reliable source.

because if the shooting is called into question, having a custom 3.5lb trigger on your weapon, will cause eyebrows to raise, and using hand loads could possible make the DA frothy..
this of course does depend on the state, CA/NY/IL I would be worried, they start frothy.. CO/KS/NE/WY/OK/TX not so much..

as for the ammo I use in my pistol for defense, its the same stuff that Aurora PD uses (critical defense), it was recommended by an officer during a class as a good solid round..
(I did not chose the most deadly round, I followed guidance from a subject mater expert)

I was also told by the a for mentioned member of the PD, if your in a shooting, don't make a lot of statements..
PD will not talk to the shoot investigator until there is an attorney, and union rep in the room with them..
its prudent to lawyer up, in the event of any shooting.

so my carry gun is stock, with a light.

GilpinGuy

01-30-2015, 00:00

Huh, the replies here are interesting. I don't know much about Mas, but I thought he was generally thought of in rather high regard in the firearms community. Like someone else wrote, learn something new every day.

His made up example in this interview re: GSR was something like this:
Scumbag attacks you and you shoot him at close range - it doesn't have to be in your home where the statutes above might not apply. Say it's in a parking garage at a mall. In court the scumbag claims that he was actually running away and you went after him. GSR could be used to prove how close he really was. But the defense says that "he made his own evidence....it cannot be considered!" garbage and the GSR evidence can't be used because who knows what load you actually used? They can't just take your word for it. A factory load can more easily be identified and the range, etc. that you shot him more provable.

And I realize that you may wind up in civil court no matter what. I just thought that this was yet one more thing us law abiding gun owners should keep in mind to avoid having our asses land in jail for defending ourselves. One less thing for the scumbags to use against us.

mcjhr

01-30-2015, 00:52

Wonder which state will mandate chp holders will need a camera too......

mcantar18c

01-30-2015, 07:48

It's good to know the possibilities of what the legal bullshit you'll encounter after an incident so you won't be caught off guard.
That said, don't let it cripple you. Don't let the fear of a court mess dictate how effectively you'll allow yourself to defend you and yours.
Mossad Ayoob is an idiot for this. I think he's on top of things on the legal side, but that he lets it become more than it should. I generally roll my eyes when I see/hear/read anything from him.

HoneyBadger

01-30-2015, 09:20

Wonder which state will mandate chp holders will need a camera too......
This might actually make the legal situation a lot simpler. You could say: "You want to see how it went down and why I feared for my life? Okay, take a look from my perspective!"

earplug

01-30-2015, 10:52

Wild Bill used reloads

Great-Kazoo

01-30-2015, 10:55

This might actually make the legal situation a lot simpler. You could say: "You want to see how it went down and why I feared for my life? Okay, take a look from my perspective!"

NOT AT ALL. The prosecutor could say You were looking for trouble and wanted to film your assault with deadly consequences. I don't try and second guess the Law. Nor do i try and put myself in a position where what i do is called in to question.
Then again, it's what happens after use of deadly Force that matters.

DAL357

01-30-2015, 10:58

I've seen MA disparaged on other forums, but can someone please tell me why he's so polarizing? It's fine, of course, to question and challenge "authorities" on any subject; I'm just trying to understand the vitriol he attracts. Should he be dismissed completely, or just on given points concerning guns, ammo, shooting, etc? Thanks.

O2HeN2

01-30-2015, 10:59

My suggestion about ammo has always been to determine what ammo your local police or sheriff's department uses and use that. If a prosecutor tries to make your ammo an issue, you can subpoena their buddy the Chief of Police or Sheriff to explain why they chose that round.

O2

Zundfolge

01-30-2015, 11:02

Ayoob has a history of conflating theoretical legal threats with real legal threats. So I tend to take what he says with a grain of salt and look at it as more of an interesting discussion of the theoretical and hypothetical instead of taking what he says as gospel advice.

That said, he does have experience in the courtroom in many of the ungodly rare cases where the theoretical legal threats actually materialized. (just keep in mind that he lives in anti-gun New England and he's an expert called in to testify on the outlier, extreme cases thus he sees more of them than most people will and I think this causes him to think the outliers are more common than they are)

In most self defense shootings I doubt that your ammo or gun is going to be looked at other than to catalog the make, model, caliber and serial number (especially for most Coloradoans who live in areas where their DA isn't an anti-gun activist).

Frankly I'd be more concerned about the reliability of hand loads over the potential legal repercussions.

kidicarus13

01-30-2015, 13:30

Great-Kazoo

01-30-2015, 13:58

You can't defer an explanation of your decision to a third party.

With the right attorney, You can do almost anything.

TFOGGER

01-30-2015, 15:38

You can't defer an explanation of your decision to a third party.

" I chose the ammunition based on research as to what the law enforcement professionals in my area chose, since they have more resources for determining the reliability and effectiveness of ammunition for defensive purposes than I do. Perhaps we can get them to elaborate on the criteria on which they based their choice. "

HoneyBadger

01-30-2015, 16:11

NOT AT ALL. The prosecutor could say You were looking for trouble and wanted to film your assault with deadly consequences. I don't try and second guess the Law. Nor do i try and put myself in a position where what i do is called in to question.
Then again, it's what happens after use of deadly Force that matters.

Ha! very good point. There are a hundred ways to argue ANYTHING you do. Bottom line: try not to ever be involved in a shooting.

kidicarus13

01-30-2015, 18:48

" I chose the ammunition based on research as to what the law enforcement professionals in my area chose, since they have more resources for determining the reliability and effectiveness of ammunition for defensive purposes than I do. Perhaps we can get them to elaborate on the criteria on which they based their choice. "
Now that would work [emoji1]

O2HeN2

01-30-2015, 21:43

You can't defer an explanation of your decision to a third party.
Sure you can, if you state "As in individual I didn't have the resources to determine a good defensive round, so I looked to my local police department for information."

Now they have to put the police department on the stand if they want to pursue it further.

O2

Added on edit: Should have read the responses before replying. You got it. :)

tim-adams

01-30-2015, 22:25

NOT AT ALL. The prosecutor could say You were looking for trouble and wanted to film your assault with deadly consequences. I don't try and second guess the Law. Nor do i try and put myself in a position where what i do is called in to question.
Then again, it's what happens after use of deadly Force that matters.

situational awareness 4TW

Edit: I have two of MA's books, they are pretty decent, keep in mine people he lives in NY.. they are frothy anti gun crazys, when the cops are this worried about prosecution.

Great-Kazoo

01-30-2015, 22:45

situational awareness 4TW

Edit: I have two of MA's books, they are pretty decent, keep in mine people he lives in NY.. they are frothy anti gun crazys, when the cops are this worried about prosecution.

I'm aware, attended 1 of his classes.

GilpinGuy

01-30-2015, 23:03

...just keep in mind that he lives in anti-gun New England....

...he lives in NY...

Which is it? My guess is one, then the other (I'm a genius[LOL]). Order unknown.
Guys, the point of my OP was: just be aware that this MIGHT be a problem in court if you plug some scumbag, that's all. We're all on the same team here. [Beer]