View Full Version : My "Precision" Rifle
Just wanted to share pictures, progress, thoughts, ideas, etc. as I go along.
First, here is how it currently looks.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/4a3628016c314c84b6515960d1014c9a.jpg
Some quick details.
Remington 700 AAC-SD in 308. Factory except for some minor fluff and buff type stuff from Red Hawk Rifles in Grand Junction and an oversize bolt knob.
I dropped it in an XLR Industries "Element" chassis. They are based out of Grand Junction as well. It was black and I rattle canned it just because I wanted to. I also replaced the grip that came on it because I just didn't like the way it fit my hand.
I put a Silencerco Specwar Trifecta muzzle brake on it. Probably going to be a while before I can put a suppressor on it. I mostly just wanted a brake for now. I like the Surefire and AAC brakes but this one had three ports instead of two and was half the cost.
Just picked up a Badger Ordinance 20MOA base for it today. My next post or two will show you why I think I need to bed it.
So, picked up a Badger Ordinance base for it today.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/0439139d9eed1bbfb4c72ef356388241.jpg
With the front mount screw sugged down the front of the mount lies flat on the receiver. I tried slipping a .0015" feeler gauge under it with no success.
Then, I moved to the rear of the mount. I couldn't get anything under it on the right side but there is definitely a gap on the left side. A .005" feeler gauge goes completely under it and about half way to the other side.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/4d0ec403b206fda9ed07ca5f1e07499d.jpg
Here's a couple of shots with a piece of paper under it. Might give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/ca6efe858728057debe8597ada4d0f49.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/d1c42c94696ab950f4642466a2079f57.jpg
I'll go into better detail about why I feel this is an issue and what I plan to do about it when I can get to my computer this evening.
Did you decide on glass yet?
Fentonite
01-30-2015, 15:00
Looks really good. I like the paint!
Dont worry about it. If you still have a gap after putting some ass on all the screws, then you have a problem.
The paint does look cool for sure.
Did you decide on glass yet?
No. Probably something from Vortex. If I decide to skip the FFP I will most likely get the Viper HS-T 4-16.
Dont worry about it. If you still have a gap after putting some ass on all the screws, then you have a problem.
The paint does look cool for sure.
I've always valued your opinion when it comes to bad ass firearm type stuff. Afraid I'm going to have to skip your well intentioned advice on this matter though. I'm trying to make this thing as perfect as possible. And my mild case of OCD just wouldn't let me live with a base that I know has a slight twist in it once I torque it down.
Really well done on the paint. Looks good.
Looks really good. I like the paint!
Really well done on the paint. Looks good.
Thanks. I'm looking forward to taking it out on the plains to see how well it blends in out there.
Afraid I'm going to have to skip your well intentioned advice on this matter though. I'm trying to make this thing as perfect as possible. And my mild case of OCD just wouldn't let me live with a base that I know has a slight twist in it once I torque it down.
No problem at all. Let us know how the base bedding part works out.
No problem at all. Let us know how the base bedding part works out.
I'll post up some pictures when I do it. I have a plan. Just need to figure out what kind of compound to use. I have some metal repair stuff at work that is pretty awesome (and expensive). Might see if it will work. Not sure which ones we have but here's a link.
http://www.belzona.com/en/products/purpose/metal-repair.aspx
Looks great Ray. Hope to see you at a match soon!
The barrel is where the money is made.. Any plans for that?
The barrel is where the money is made.. Any plans for that?
Yep. Shoot it as-is so that I can work on the fundamentals and learn all of the basics. By the time I have all of that sorted out hopefully the round count will be high enough I can feel good about a barrel upgrade. Probably switch calibers then too.
XC700116
01-30-2015, 21:15
I'll post up some pictures when I do it. I have a plan. Just need to figure out what kind of compound to use. I have some metal repair stuff at work that is pretty awesome (and expensive). Might see if it will work. Not sure which ones we have but here's a link.
http://www.belzona.com/en/products/purpose/metal-repair.aspx
I've used JB weld to bed 3 of my rifle scope mounts, and plan to do it on number 4 as soon as it's finished being built. It works well, is cheap, and I've pulled the base on one a couple times to check it and it's held up fine in the over 2800 rounds through that rifle. (yes, my OCD compels me to log every round down the barrel)
Yep. Shoot it as-is so that I can work on the fundamentals and learn all of the basics. By the time I have all of that sorted out hopefully the round count will be high enough I can feel good about a barrel upgrade. Probably switch calibers then too.
Your OCD flares up over aluminum scope mounts but it is fine with a shitty barrel?
Your OCD flares up over aluminum scope mounts but it is fine with a shitty barrel?
Lol. Pretty much.
Shitty is is a relative term anyways. I had another one of these rifles once and in the crappy Hogue stock with the factory trigger and a $300 SWFA scope it would shoot .5 to .75 MOA at 100 yards with very little load development.
Since I'm really only planning on shooting from 100 to about 500 yards if it will group around .5 MOA with its favorite load it should serve me well for now.
Remember folks, this is really my first leap into any sort of precision rifle stuff. I'm going to have a lot to learn for a while. I think this will make a decent starter rifle for me until I outgrow it.
Why only 500yrds?
Mostly only 500. And technically the range I most intend to use it on is actually 500 meters. Not yards.
I mostly just want to ring steel on the metallic silhouette range out at CRC. Might take it out on an occasional coyote hunt with some guys from work. Maybe.
TheBelly
01-31-2015, 10:16
If the gun will shoot .5MOA, I don't see a reason to switch the barrels...
What if the barrel is a 1.5 MOA barrel? I would always wonder whether or not it's me or the gun.
I'd hate to spend a lot of time to find out what the gun likes, just to find out that the best it will do is 1.5MOA.
I'm with Hoser: Change it for a barrel of known quality and proven ability.
If the gun will shoot .5MOA, I don't see a reason to switch the barrels...
What if the barrel is a 1.5 MOA barrel? I would always wonder whether or not it's me or the gun.
I'd hate to spend a lot of time to find out what the gun likes, just to find out that the best it will do is 1.5MOA.
I'm with Hoser: Change it for a barrel of known quality and proven ability.
I'd like to at least try it out before I condemn it.
If it is a 1.5 MOA barrel it will be coming off promptly.
TheBelly
01-31-2015, 11:27
I'd like to at least try it out before I condemn it.
If it is a 1.5 MOA barrel it will be coming off promptly.
By not replacing it, how will you know if it's the barrel, the ammo, or the shooter?
I mean that question with no idea of your shooting proficiency, Ray. Please don't think I'm doubting your abilities.
I've been shooting pretty regularly for over 32 years. I can probably tell if it's shooter error. I've been loading my own ammo for over 20 years. I'll try quite a few loads and if none of them show any promise and I'm pretty certain I'm not the problem then I'll lean towards the barrel being an issue.
I had a Savage many years ago that I could consistently shoot groups below 1/2" inch at 100 yards. Most were usually around 3/8". I just never stretched it out past 100 yards.
TheBelly
01-31-2015, 11:44
You re-answered as i was posting....
XC700116
01-31-2015, 12:02
eh, if you aren't planning on shooting specific matches, and therefore have deadlines to deal with, I see no reason not to run the barrel that's on it to at least check it out and get a feel for things. It's not like you can't re-barrel later.
Although if you do end up re-barreling it, I'd strongly recommend a more effective LR cartridge, because honestly, 308 sucks in comparison to the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges in the LR game. And sooner or later, you'll buckle to the peer pressure and get your tail out to some of the matches we're all shooting [Coffee]
eh, if you aren't planning on shooting specific matches, and therefore have deadlines to deal with, I see no reason not to run the barrel that's on it to at least check it out and get a feel for things. It's not like you can't re-barrel later.
Although if you do end up re-barreling it, I'd strongly recommend a more effective LR cartridge, because honestly, 308 sucks in comparison to the 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges in the LR game. And sooner or later, you'll buckle to the peer pressure and get your tail out to some of the matches we're all shooting [Coffee]
Thanks. That's pretty much what I had in mind. Try the factory barrel, hopefully it's good enough for me to learn on, and if it looks like I am really going to get into it then probably swap the barrel for something in 6 or 6.5 mm.
As far as any of the matches, I don't expect to be out at any of them this year. Maybe next year.
[Beer]
TheBelly
01-31-2015, 17:21
Thanks. That's pretty much what I had in mind. Try the factory barrel, hopefully it's good enough for me to learn on, and if it looks like I am really going to get into it then probably swap the barrel for something in 6 or 6.5 mm.
As far as any of the matches, I don't expect to be out at any of them this year. Maybe next year.
[Beer]
Just go.. you know you want to!!
Dinosdeuce
02-01-2015, 16:28
You should really plan shooting some of the local matches. We are there to help, not ridicule, new shooters. There will be a learning curve for sure. You just got to come on out and do it. I think you will be surprised at how well you do.
XC700116
02-01-2015, 16:57
You should really plan shooting some of the local matches. We are there to help, not ridicule, new shooters. There will be a learning curve for sure. You just got to come on out and do it. I think you will be surprised at how well you do.
^^^ This, You'll learn more in a couple of days of shooting with Guys like Dino, Hoser, Timk, etc than you will in a LOT of time behind the rifle by yourself at a range. I know this first hand, the first ever match I shot was Hoser's Prairie dog match in October of 2013. Since then, I've gone full retard and shot nearly every Raton match, nearly every one of Hoser's matches (PD and the new field match) Snipers Hide Cup, Steel Safari, The Thunderbeast team challenge, and am planning on all of them and more this year.
Those guys helped me a TON, and I'd have burned down my first barrel without knowing half what I do now if it wasn't for them. There's been a lot of others along the way that have taught me a lot as well that aren't members here, but needless to say, the LR competitive community are truly a pleasure to be around and very helpful to others.
Hell, I drive right by you on my way to Pueblo and Raton, If you decide you'd like to give it a whirl, PM me and you can ride down there with me if you'd like. (excluding this month in Raton as I'll be on vacation and won't make that match.
Look on the bright side you'll probably outshoot me on your first time out! But you'll have a hell of a lot of fun.
Thanks, gentlemen. [Beer]
Got around to bedding the scope base today.
Had most of the stuff on hand. Just had to pick up the JB Weld and the wax stick thingy that I decided to use as a release agent.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_124227_resized_zps4dfbcb6c.jpg
After degreasing the top of the receiver and the bottom of the scope mount with some of the wife's acetone, I used the wax stick to coat the top of the receiver so the mount wouldn't get stuck.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_125557_resized_zpsaf62ccec.jpg
I coated the screws as well so that they would release.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_125615_resized_zps8718f976.jpg
Since I'm only filling a gap of .005" or less, a thin coat was all that was used.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_130141_resized_zpsc9c01df7.jpg
It still oozed out quite a bit.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_130643_resized_zpscb35aaf8.jpg
Cleaned it up with a little acetone using some q-tips and blue shop towels.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m98/rjs1970/Mobile%20Uploads/20150208_131459_resized_zpsd4dbf7ac.jpg
I torqued the front screw down but the other three were just run in until they barely touched so as not do induce any stress on the mount. I will probably let it sit like this throughout the week and next Friday I will take it apart, do some final cleaning, and install it and torque it down with some loc-tite on the fasteners.
By torquing the front screw down and not the others you will actually cause it to twist and make a larger gap. Just torque them all down to where you want it to let it harden. I would think if you let it cure the way you have it now and then tighten it down you'll crack the bedding base.
By torquing the front screw down and not the others you will actually cause it to twist and make a larger gap. Just torque them all down to where you want it to let it harden. I would think if you let it cure the way you have it now and then tighten it down you'll crack the bedding base.
I'm going to politely disagree with you. But I do appreciate the advice.
Doesn't do any good to bed the base if you torque all the screws down and squeeze all the bedding compound out .
The idea behind bedding the base is you tighten whatever end of the base fits best to the receiver, front or rear doesn't matter . Then just barely snug that end down but not torque it because you want the bedding compound to fill the imperfections . The other end just run the screws in to contact and thats it . Let it all set up and mount as normal .
If you torque both ends you just put the bend in the middle of the base like if you didn't bed it at all .
Doesn't do any good to bed the base if you torque all the screws down and squeeze all the bedding compound out .
The idea behind bedding the base is you tighten whatever end of the base fits best to the receiver, front or rear doesn't matter . Then just barely snug that end down but not torque it because you want the bedding compound to fill the imperfections . The other end just run the screws in to contact and thats it . Let it all set up and mount as normal .
If you torque both ends you just put the bend in the middle of the base like if you didn't bed it at all .
Thanks. I'm not very good at explaining things but that's pretty much exactly what I did.
When I test fit the mount the front laid flat on the receiver. Couldn't see any daylight or get a .0015" feels gauge anywhere under it. But the rear of the mount was sticking up in the rear. Mostly on the left side of the mount. By just torquing it down I would induce a twist and possibly a slight bow in the base.
I figured since it was only going to cost me about $6 and less than an hours worth of my time it was no big deal for me to make it about as right as I could.
TheBelly
02-08-2015, 21:26
after the bedding, I'm interested in seeing how 'true' the base will be with the action.
Seems to me that if there was a gap while torqued, even if you torqued them to spec after bedding it's still going to fill in the gap. I thought anyway.
He'll I don't know! [Beer]
Won't change a thing unless the base screw holes are reworked on a mill to the centerline of the bore . Thats why they oversize the screws not because there stronger .
Bedding the base is to take up the tolerance stacking between the base and the receiver and make sure it runs flat and both rings are on the same plane and not bending the scope tube .
C Ward is going to be my new best friend. He seems to be the only one who understands what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. [Beer]
Ok! Now I can see it! Thanks for dumbing it down fer me..
TheBelly
02-08-2015, 22:22
Doesn't do any good to bed the base if you torque all the screws down and squeeze all the bedding compound out
it shouldn't squeeze out all the compound, it should leave just what's needed to fill in the spaces, right?
it shouldn't squeeze out all the compound, it should leave just what's needed to fill in the spaces, right?
Let me see if my explanation skills are working. I might exaggerate a bit to make the point.
With the front of the base secured there was no gap under the Front of the base but the rear of the base stuck up .005".
I could tighten the rear screws and it would pull the base down tight in the rear. But, in doing so, technically you are flexing or distorting the rail .005" to close that gap.
If the mount was tightened down it would squeeze nearly all of the compound out and would be bedded in with the five thousandths distortion.
By by leaving the rear of the base loose you have not induced the stress in the base. Once the "bedding compound" sets under that .005" gap you no longer have a gap. So, when you tighten it down, since their is no gap there is no distortion to the base.
Won't change a thing unless the base screw holes are reworked on a mill to the centerline of the bore . Thats why they oversize the screws not because there stronger .
Bedding the base is to take up the tolerance stacking between the base and the receiver and make sure it runs flat and both rings are on the same plane and not bending the scope tube .
I thought that's what lapping the rings did?
I'm also curious if the receiver and base were checked for trueness? Perhaps the base is wonky and just torquing it to the receiver makes it straight?
TheBelly
02-09-2015, 05:59
Let me see if my explanation skills are working. I might exaggerate a bit to make the point.
With the front of the base secured there was no gap under the Front of the base but the rear of the base stuck up .005".
I could tighten the rear screws and it would pull the base down tight in the rear. But, in doing so, technically you are flexing or distorting the rail .005" to close that gap.
If the mount was tightened down it would squeeze nearly all of the compound out and would be bedded in with the five thousandths distortion.
By by leaving the rear of the base loose you have not induced the stress in the base. Once the "bedding compound" sets under that .005" gap you no longer have a gap. So, when you tighten it down, since their is no gap there is no distortion to the base.
Understand completely, that's a good explanation. Has a torqued base been a problem for this rifle in the past? Have you had this problem with other rifles in the past?
also, once the compound is set, I assumed you're going to re-thread the holes to alleviate any issues with their perfectly-perpendicular-yet-true-to-the-bore that may or may not now be present......
I'm not doubting any of your skills, Ray. It's really not my intention. Bedding a scope base just seems, to me, like pole-vaulting over a mouse turd.
I've always tested to see if everything tightens up, and if it shoots, then problem solved. I'm pretty nerdy, and this thread only feeds that......my wife doesn't thank you, as now I feel compelled to watch you do this and then consider doing it on my LR bolt gun.
You don't want to apply any torque to the base screws when you bed because then the tolerance stacking you are trying to correct for will be in the finished product once it sets up . On all rifles where the front and rear scope base mounting surfaces are on a different plane no 2 rifles are alike . Remington is especially bad about this because they finish the rear reliever bridge on a belt sander . This is why 2 piece bases have no place on a precision rifle .
Bedding the base also serves to give closer to if not 100% contact between the receiver and the base which makes things less likely to shift around and the mounting screws to shoot loose .
Lapping the rings can correct for very small problems with the scope mounting plane not being straight . In my book if you buy quality rings and bases and mount everything right its a waste of time . Also any of the aluminum rings , there are some very good aluminum rings on the market , you can not lap because it destroys the anodizing and ruins the rings . On all scope rings the dimension of the bore is what sets the clamping force on the scope tube , change that dimension and the clamping force isn't right and the scope moves .
Every one of my rifles without a built in scope rail has the scope base bedded to the receiver .
I'm not doubting any of your skills, Ray. It's really not my intention.
Wouldn't bother me if you were.
I was only making this thread so anyone interested could follow along with my journey.
I totally understand not everyone is going to agree with my methods or my thought process.
I've always kind of marched to my own beat anyways.
The proof is in the pudding as they say. I guess we'll have to see how she shoots when I get it all done. I have high hopes for it but I suppose I could end up disappointed in the end.
TheBelly
02-09-2015, 18:51
Wouldn't bother me if you were.
I was only making this thread so anyone interested could follow along with my journey.
I totally understand not everyone is going to agree with my methods or my thought process.
I've always kind of marched to my own beat anyways.
The proof is in the pudding as they say. I guess we'll have to see how she shoots when I get it all done. I have high hopes for it but I suppose I could end up disappointed in the end.
Its a good a noble journey Ray. I like asking the questions and have the answers up here.
A guy on the old SnipersHide did it with his LMT MWS, and it was a great reference for everyone to call upon. Frankly, the real utility is that most folks don't have the stones to just tear something apart and use their own two hands to make something better.
I say, "Bravo, Ray"
Subscribed for reference as I begin building up my Savage 12 LRP in 6.5CM.
XLR Element chassis is what I plan to use as well.
Delfuego
02-10-2015, 20:26
C Ward knows a lot about long range shooting, he is a valuable resource.
XLR Element chassis is what I plan to use as well.
I like mine so far. Even though I haven't actually shot the thing. It seems very well engineered and made. Also nice to support a business in our state.
C Ward knows a lot about long range shooting, he is a valuable resource.
He seems pretty knowledgeable as far as I'm concerned. I'd definitely give any advice he gives some serious thought.
He seems pretty knowledgeable as far as I'm concerned. I'd definitely give any advice he gives some serious thought.
Oh, he knows his shit. Just look at his scores in Pueblo and Raton. While we haven't properly introduced ourselves, when he's shooting, I know I'm losing [Beer]
Come find me sometime , just look for the big angry old opinionated asshole, mostly true , but I don't bite .
I'm horrible with names so don't feel bad if I don't remember for a while .
Really come ask questions . We all started from the same spot and went through the same issues . The gear choices that we make now are what works reliably and holds up to the abuse of the field style matches .
The learning curve on the LR stuff is steep and can be expensive , asking questions can ease the pain some . Way easier in person , especially Sat in Raton , than typing on the internet .
Agreed, my first Raton match was a great learning experience . In hindsight it cost me a lot of money though. After that match I tore my rifle apart and built a purpose built rifle. I still suck, but It's a ton of fun and super humbling all at the same time .
I will be at the next Raton match. I'll find you and pick your brain for a bit. I've never shown up on Saturday. What happens? Practice? I always show up Sunday tired and full of coffee. I'm sure that don't help.
Sat is set up and the site in range is open for 2 hours . Then dinner and BS time at the hotel .
Walking the terrain for set up is a good tool , you can feel what the wind is doing at the targets and see all the features that funnel and shield it .
The game is all about the wind , getting good data is easy with all the software available now .
I like mine so far. Even though I haven't actually shot the thing. It seems very well engineered and made. Also nice to support a business in our state.
Absolutely. Seems like a better option than spending time and effort getting the original H&S precision stock ready to do something it is not well designed to do.
Grant H.
07-27-2015, 18:06
I have bedded several of my scope mounts, but I only bother when they have a "large" gap.
As has already been said, bedding a scope mount is about relieving stress, the same way bedding an action in a stock is about relieving stress. When you torque something down, if it doesn't have a perfect/near perfect mating surface, you run the risk of it being twisted or bent. In the long range game, consistency is key. If one of the components is stressed, there is the possibility of it moving when the rifle is fired. Even a small movement can result it inconsistency at longer ranges.
I haven't played with any of the chassis options out there, because I have had great success with bedding actions into stocks that I like. I use devcon for any of my centerfire rifles, but I use JB Weld for my rimfire projects. The rimfires have been mostly for fun, but I like to tinker with improving/modifying firearms.
Overall, nice work Ray. Keep updating this thread as you can, it's always fun to see others projects.
Edit to Add:
Wow, sorry for the old post resurrect... I was just browsing through, and didn't realize I had gotten that far back.
TheBelly
08-16-2015, 23:57
XLR Element chassis is what I plan to use as well.
Ive used one of these in PRS matches. It did everything it was asked to do.
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