Thoughts on arrow weight vs arrow speed

[Planner]

Fairly new archer, shooting a 2014 Hoyt Faktor Turbo at 70lbs with a 30" draw. That is the max draw length module on the Z5 cams and limbs are bottomed out.

My goal is to archery hunt for elk this fall. I've shot over 1,000 arrows through the bow in the last two months with the goal of 5-6000 by the time the season rolls around. No way will I spend 3-4 days humping around the high country only to miss a shot.

For the last two months, I have been shooting Gold Tip Kinetic XTs in a 300 spine wt. My accuracy is fairly good, enough that I had to start re-fletching my arrows. I knocked out new fletchings and then weighed the Kinetics - 479.5 grains. Specs- 29.5" carbon at 10.5gpi, plus the outsert + 10gr FACT screw in (~ 12% FOC), 100gr field point, arrow wrap cut in half, Blazer 2" vanes and the Accu-tough nock. My target weight was 450grs. Will use fixed blade broad heads when the time comes, probably G5 Montecs or Muzzy Trocars.

I was a bit shocked at how heavy they turned out. I have not chrono'd, but guesstimate upper 290s to low 300 fps, given Hoyt's traditional accuracy in their speed ratings (340 for this bow). I.e. Roughly 90+ ft/lbs of KE.

That got me thinking - a lighter arrow might shoot a tad flatter and help compensate for a jumpy animal or ranging error - but the heavier arrow will carry a lot of KE and may break bone if I hit forward on the shoulder.

I use a three pin CBE TEK Hybrid sight and the pins are fairly close (20-30-40 with 30 being the floater) already. If I went to a lighter arrow, they'd be closer and harder to see through/separate. I kind of liken this to heavy for caliber bullets. Better long range ballistics, but slower speed.

Given that this is not the mid-west where 30yds at a Whitetail is max, I don't think that laser flat arrow is such a necessity, but it am new to this so feel free to weigh in on your thoughts and experiences.

Gratuitous pictures below:

[XC700116]

Elk are actually some of the easier animals to kill with a bow (that's not to say they are easy to hunt with a bow) They have a BIG set of lungs presenting a large target. Your arrow weight sounds about perfect to me, I'm not a gold tip fan (10 years ago I had some not so great results with them for target archery so I've avoided them in general) but if they are shooting well for you, that's all that really matters. People have killed thousands of elk with a long bow, so don't over-think it, You're good to go on the equipment side of things, just shoot it, A LOT, and make your shot count.

[275RLTW]

Keep the heavier arrow. 290-300 fps is still very fast. Getting over 300 is dangerous, especially for newer shooters as you lose forgiveness. Do you plan on using a rangefinder? That should eliminate you yardage estimation problems. I suggest getting out to shoot a few 3D shoots during the year. You'll learn tons about shot placement, yardage estimation, winds, uncomfortable shooting positions, and such. When you start getting wrapped around the axle about speed, remember that buys have been doing this for centuries with recurves very sucessfully. Don't try to fix software issues with new hardware.

[Firehaus]

I ran your rough numbers through the ot-2 software. Says a stiffer spine arrow is required.

Here are the screen shots that also have what prescribing are needed with the 300 spine arrow.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/01/badcfc5223a5186af5988a123afc15b5.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/01/e5493152d11369e809ae9e704d01ca23.jpg

It's a free 10 day trial if you download it.

Sent from my iPhone

[275RLTW]

Archers Advantage and some of the other programs are just basic guidelines and not rules. Some of my best competition setups weren't possible according to those programs.

[BigBear]

If you are in the Springs, go run by Bill Peregrino's Archery Hut... Dude is a genius and can answer/diagnose ANYTHING bow/arrow/human error related.... Did I mention I think highly of him? lol

[275RLTW]

If you are in the Springs, go run by Bill Peregrino's Archery Hut... Dude is a genius and can answer/diagnose ANYTHING bow/arrow/human error related.... Did I mention I think highly of him? lol

Bill Pellegrino is the Rob Latham of the competitive archery world. He's won just about every competition there is over the last 30 years. I've shot with him many times and still learn something new each time.

[ford_muscle1]

I took my bull this past season with bow and despite what the Archery Hut told me about my PSE bow being junk and arrows that they said needed to be heavier that bull damn sure seemed to drop.

In in my experience if that weight of arrow is comfortable for you to shoot then stick with that. I have seen more guys mess up perfect shots because they change one little thing. If you have put that many arrows down range on that bow then stick with what you have.

Also try to find someone to help with your bow that doesn't care if you shoot PSE, Hoyt, Matthews, or any other brand they will give you the most honest opinion. To many so called pro shops just want you to buy their crap and are name whores.

[Firehaus]

Also try to find someone to help with your bow that doesn't care if you shoot PSE, Hoyt, Matthews, or any other brand they will give you the most honest opinion. To many so called pro shops just want you to buy their crap and are name whores.

This +1000.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/01/e28db8422a7fd3020da9d009389b8b37.jpg


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[patrick0685]

I started with Gold Tips as well and have switched to the Easton Axis and thats what I am going to take to Africa. I shoot an Elite Energy 32 28.5 draw 70#'s, my arrows will be 450ish or 425 depending on lighted nocks or not. My FPS is 286 which puts my KE at 77ish way more than enough for any animal in North America they say. My only suggestion would be before you finalize on 1 arrow buy a few and check them out. Also you might be shooting fast enough that your 20 and 30 yard pin could be 1 then you would have a 20/30 - 40 - 50 yard pins.

[Rucker61]

There's always the trick pin method: http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-05-09-42/archery/252-the-qtrick-pinq-system

[Planner]

Elk are actually some of the easier animals to kill with a bow (that's not to say they are easy to hunt with a bow) They have a BIG set of lungs presenting a large target. Your arrow weight sounds about perfect to me, I'm not a gold tip fan (10 years ago I had some not so great results with them for target archery so I've avoided them in general) but if they are shooting well for you, that's all that really matters. People have killed thousands of elk with a long bow, so don't over-think it, You're good to go on the equipment side of things, just shoot it, A LOT, and make your shot count.

Thanks for the feedback. I have not tried any Eastons, but have shot some Carbon Express. To me, the ability to tinker on FOC with the Gold Tip and almost universal availability works for me.

I plan to shoot as much as possible! Right now, shooting about 30 arrows per day, except when it is snowing.

[Planner]

Keep the heavier arrow. 290-300 fps is still very fast. Getting over 300 is dangerous, especially for newer shooters as you lose forgiveness. Do you plan on using a rangefinder? That should eliminate you yardage estimation problems. I suggest getting out to shoot a few 3D shoots during the year. You'll learn tons about shot placement, yardage estimation, winds, uncomfortable shooting positions, and such. When you start getting wrapped around the axle about speed, remember that buys have been doing this for centuries with recurves very sucessfully. Don't try to fix software issues with new hardware.

Yes on the rangefinder. Probably will go with the Nikon archery specific model. 3D is in the plans once I zero in on my hunting configuration. Seems like a good way to practice.

[Planner]

I ran your rough numbers through the ot-2 software. Says a stiffer spine arrow is required.

Here are the screen shots that also have what prescribing are needed with the 300 spine arrow.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/01/badcfc5223a5186af5988a123afc15b5.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/01/e5493152d11369e809ae9e704d01ca23.jpg

It's a free 10 day trial if you download it.

Sent from my iPhone

Thanks, interesting program. 300 is what Bill Peligrino told me to get for that bow. He did not have any in stock or he would have set them up for me.

Given it is on the edge of acceptable for Gold Tip's chart, the Kinetics are still stiffer than a Hunter or Velocity in 300.

I looked at some of the 200 spine arrows, plus the Injexions or FMJs and they were too heavy for where I was targeting the weight.

What sold me on the Kinetics is they group better than the 6575 Carbon Express. A little stiffer and a little heavier.

[Planner]

If you are in the Springs, go run by Bill Peregrino's Archery Hut... Dude is a genius and can answer/diagnose ANYTHING bow/arrow/human error related.... Did I mention I think highly of him? lol

I have spent more than a few dollars there :)

[Firehaus]

I'm in the process of getting the right arrows for my bowtech 360. Given I'm at 28" @ 65lbs with a 125gr, I won't be hitting 360, but I'm close to where you are at with mine.


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[Planner]

I started with Gold Tips as well and have switched to the Easton Axis and thats what I am going to take to Africa. I shoot an Elite Energy 32 28.5 draw 70#'s, my arrows will be 450ish or 425 depending on lighted nocks or not. My FPS is 286 which puts my KE at 77ish way more than enough for any animal in North America they say. My only suggestion would be before you finalize on 1 arrow buy a few and check them out. Also you might be shooting fast enough that your 20 and 30 yard pin could be 1 then you would have a 20/30 - 40 - 50 yard pins.

Nice. I tested the Elite line (E35, Synergy), the Hoyts, G5 Prime and Rival, the Mathews HTR No Cam, plus the whole PSE line from their speed bow to the big Freak SP. I wanted to like the Elite 35 as it was my paper pick going in, but I just did not get along with it as well as the Hoyt or the PSE Freak. I did not get to shoot an Energy 32 though, impressed with the speed you posted.

Axis are the only Easton's I want to try right now, they are the same internal dimensions as the Kinetics. That being said, I have not been able to find a six-pack in the right weight in a store. May have to look at Lancaster Archery online.

My thought on the 20 pin is to actually set it more like a 15yd, so a tick low at 20, a tick high at 10.

With the CBE TEK Hybrid 3-pin, the 30yd is the floater so their site tapes are scaled to a 30 and 60yd zero. I have yet to do the 60 yd site in, but good to go at everything between 10-50.

[Planner]

I'm in the process of getting the right arrows for my bowtech 360. Given I'm at 28" @ 65lbs with a 125gr, I won't be hitting 360, but I'm close to where you are at with mine.


Sent from my iPhone

How do you like that 360? I have not shot any Bowtechs. It looks like a smoking fast setup.

[Firehaus]

I'm liking it a lot. Still trying to determine pin sets. Went over to full rut today and my 10 & 20 pin are the same now. Bullseye on both. I thought my 20 & 30 was going to be the same pin, but I'm kind of liking it like this.

My first foray into speed bows. A 300fps arrow is pretty damn awesome!

I'm currently using a spot Hogg real deal sight while my tek hybrid is being sent in for repair. It's a five pin and I'm thinking about switching to a three pin. Are you liking your 3 pin?


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[Planner]

The three pin was a good choice for me. I wanted the simplicity of a single pin slider with some margin for error, and without the congested sight picture of a five pin. The front facing sight tape is what sealed the deal on the CBE over the other options I considered.

And yes, arrow speed is a drug!

[Planner]

So, with 70+ degree weather today, I headed to Cheyenne Mtn to sight in at 60yds and then explore the walking 3D course.

I really like the way the 10gr FACT weight influenced FOC on the long range trajectory. Winds were gusting so producing a decent group at 70yds was challenging and affected horizontal dispersion. Vertical dispersion was very consistent.

The 3-pin is exactly what I hoped it would be, using the middle pin as the floater, I can set it to 60 and shoot the bottom pin at 70. Pic attached.

Enjoyed the 3D targets as well (30yd grouping pic below). Over all, I think I will stay with this arrow weight/class for the season, maybe exploring the Black Eagle Arrow Renegade which has the same specs as the Kinetic XT. Now that I can fletch and know they don't fly wild at long range, I can just get shafts and save some $.

FWIW, the Kinetics went about 18" into the field target at 60 yards. They definitely carry plenty of KE.

Any thoughts on fixed blade broad heads? On paper, I like the G5 Montec (quality construction, simple and elegant design), QAD Exodus (swept blades over the half-out insert on the Kinetic just makes 'sense' to me) and the chisel tip Muzzy Trocar. I have the G5 Arrow Squaring Device so I will be able to align the broad head with the vanes, if it matters.

[Firehaus]

Nice shooting.

I didn't realize they had an archery range there. How big is the 3D?



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[Planner]

Nice shooting.

I didn't realize they had an archery range there. How big is the 3D?



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The walking 3D side has 14 separate target arrays. Each target sight has both a field target and a 3D animal type target with 4-5 different range markers.

[MileHighOutlaw]

People get wrapped up with heavy weight arrows when hunting elk. I used the same set up for elk as I did for my antelope. Gold Tip Velocity XT's with mechanical broadheads and at 40 yards I put one through both lungs and busted a rib going out theh other side. The elk didn't know what hit it and went roughly 50 yards before expiring. A well placed shot is waht counts.