According to Obama, if you're an American, or Christian, you're just like ISIS [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

roberth

02-06-2015, 12:42

Thanks Bert.

When Obama compares Christianity to Islam he conveniently ignores the fact the Christianity has changed over the centuries were Islam has not.

Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Tao, Buddhism and nearly all other religions are celebrations of life, Islam is the celebration of death. When a Christain seeks to convert someone they do it through volunteerism, when a Muslim seeks to convert someone he does it by force.

Furthermore Islam is NOT a religion, it is an entire system, financial, executive, legislative, judicial, the religion of Islam is a component of the greater system of Islam. That is why Islam is incompatible with The Constitution of These United States, Islam seeks to replace our constitution with it's own.

CO Hugh

02-06-2015, 13:47

A good article. Plust maybe

Still More of President Obama’s Moral Equivalence

http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8193

This is banal.

The problem with all such high-horse declarations by Obama is his continual omission of historical context and, in this case, his conflation of the frequent with the rare. The Crusades began in 1095, almost a millennium ago; the Inquisition in 1478, now over 500 years past. When the president says “people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ,” he should remember that all religions at the time committed terrible deeds that shock the modern sense of morality — given the savage wars between Christendom and Islam, and the religious purifications and civil discord common to all the religious factional strife that played out, violently, in accord with the ethos of the times.

Here are a couple more links regarding the satanic death cult:

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2005/05/jihad_begot_the_crusades_1.html

BPTactical

02-06-2015, 15:39

The REALLY silly thing?
That ALL of the bloodshed in the name of Christ, Mudhamhead,Sheba, Buddha etc has all been done over what?
The "word" and "message of a "Supreme Being", an unproven deity??

In reality, a Fairy Tale of sorts.

Disclaimer: I know that statement will arouse the ire of some, that is not it's intent.
Billions BELIEVE, none KNOW.

ZERO THEORY

02-06-2015, 17:43

Your thread title is quite the over reach Ronin.

I don't like the current president any more than the next guy on this forum, so I am certainly not defending him, and I just so happen to be a Christian, but his statement (a reminder of atrocities committed in the name of Christ - which is historically factual) was not saying that if you're an American or Christian, you're just like ISIS. At best, Christians during the Crusades were what he was comparing to ISIS.

Glad I'm not the only one. I do not support "our" president in the least. But I won't misconstrue his statements; he's said and done enough stupid things that I don't need to take anything out of context.

hatidua

02-06-2015, 19:22

The REALLY silly thing?
That ALL of the bloodshed in the name of Christ, Mudhamhead,Sheba, Buddha etc has all been done over what?
The "word" and "message of a "Supreme Being", an unproven deity??

In reality, a Fairy Tale of sorts.

"My imaginary friend is the real deal, your imaginary friend is a hoax". -it's amusing to watch from the sidelines though.

Humans once worshipped the sun, stone 'gods', thunder, etc. We are currently amongst those who are convinced some bearded dude from the middle east is bestowed with supernatural powers and his distant 9th cousin has a pretty good following as well...most of them think some town called Mecca is the center of all that is good. Meanwhile, some carved stone fat guy in Asia has a lot of followers here in Boulder and a vegetarian that thought highly of cows has most of India in his back pocket.

I feel strongly about thunder, but mainly because it accompanies lightning and that makes swinging a fly rod a rather risky endeavor when that god comes out to play.

asmo

02-06-2015, 19:30

cstone

02-06-2015, 19:41

Gun guys as theologians [ROFL3]

Everyone has opinions. Just don't use force and violence to win an argument.

Be safe.

Great-Kazoo

02-06-2015, 19:46

The OP has no validity since he put Mr. in front of Obama.

How ever he phrased or meant to imply the current oratory slew. He has / had an agenda since day 1. That agenda is not in alignment with anything we / us believe in. Although some of the board members are still fellating his image.

mb504

02-06-2015, 20:02

I know I'm invoking Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) with this statement, but....

So is Obama invoking blood libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel) upon all Christians in the the world TODAY for the Crusades, while referencing actions of people today?

Yes, I thought so. You are not guilty of the sins of your father, or his father, or his father... you are responsible for your sins... IRIS is doing it now, let's follow Jordan's lead and remove the ones that are causing the problem.

Irving

02-06-2015, 20:09

IRIS is doing it now, let's follow Jordan's lead and remove the ones that are causing the problem.

I have to say that this is possibly the first time in my life that I've ever been interested in Air Jordans. Bomb those suckers!

BPTactical

02-06-2015, 20:21

I have to say that this is possibly the first time in my life that I've ever been interested in Air Jordans. Bomb those suckers!

I see what you did there[Peep]

Skully

02-06-2015, 20:24

I have to say that this is possibly the first time in my life that I've ever been interested in Air Jordans. Bomb those suckers!

Niiiiiice! You are very puny sir Stu. [Beer]

Duman

02-06-2015, 20:31

Hey, asmo, who's the babe in the burka? [Coffee]

hollohas

02-06-2015, 21:23

If you think this is better/different

55999

Than this:
56001

Then you are fundamentally part of the problem.

This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while.

Bailey Guns

02-06-2015, 21:31

This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while.

Thank you. Those are the words I really couldn't find after reading that post.

tmckay2

02-06-2015, 21:31

I'm weird, but i prefer people not cut off people's heads in order to convert. but thats just me. i guess when christians en masse start beheading people because they won't convert, then i will agree, they are no different. until that time i see them as slightly, teensy weensy bit different.

If you think this is better/different

55999

Than this:
56001

Then you are fundamentally part of the problem. That said, all the really mean parts of the Bible that people don't like to talk about - have been marginalized due to increased social pressure. That has never happened in Islam. They went the other way. While western countries *eventually* said "Uhh.. Fuck, most of, that crazy shit"; the middle east said "Oh yeah. This is fucking great! Gimme more!".

There is fundamentally no difference between the Inquisition and what ISIS/ISIL is doing right now. The issue is that there has been a couple of hundred years of progress in one of the groups socio/political landscape.

Firehaus

02-06-2015, 22:34

If you think this is better/different

55999

Than this:
56001

One needs a tax stamp and the other doesn't?

Sent from my iPhone

asmo

02-06-2015, 23:09

This is the dumbest thing I have read in a while.

Still waiting for the intellectual rebuttal to the argument I made.

ZERO THEORY

02-06-2015, 23:23

If you think this is better/different

55999

Than this:
56001

Then you are fundamentally part of the problem. That said, all the really mean parts of the Bible that people don't like to talk about - have been marginalized due to increased social pressure. That has never happened in Islam. They went the other way. While western countries *eventually* said "Uhh.. Fuck, most of, that crazy shit"; the middle east said "Oh yeah. This is fucking great! Gimme more!".

There is fundamentally no difference between the Inquisition and what ISIS/ISIL is doing right now. The issue is that there has been a couple of hundred years of progress in one of the groups socio/political landscape.

The difference being that the American girl has almost certainly never seen combat, nor will she likely resort to violence against her statesman to punish him for heresy. She's professing her willingness to defend herself and her country, but not go on the offensive. She will respect, or at least leave alone, believers of different faiths. The same in all likelihood cannot be said for the latter.

Also, the American girl should probably upgrade from the old 30 star flag.

I'm weird, but i prefer people not cut off people's heads in order to convert. but thats just me. i guess when christians en masse start beheading people because they won't convert, then i will agree, they are no different. until that time i see them as slightly, teensy weensy bit different.

To be fair, Christian/Catholic extremists did more than their fair share of decapitating, scalping, and all other sorts of friendly conversion practices.

Honey Badger282.8

02-07-2015, 06:34

bellavite1

02-07-2015, 07:39

I'll just sit this one out...[Pop]

BPTactical

02-07-2015, 07:47

I'll just sit this one out...[Pop]

Awww shucks

roberth

02-07-2015, 08:04

I'll just sit this one out...[Pop]

Why? Your belief system is as relevant as Christianity or Judaism or any of the others. Present tense, the only system I see committing wholesale murder is Islam.

All this comparison of the Crusades to what Islam did is just avoiding a confrontation with Islam (in addition to the gross ignorance), it is cowardly and has no purpose in the present. Humans need this confrontation so the good guys (everyone against Islam in this case) can win. Then we can go back to bickering about Protestant vs Catholic or whatever.

Bailey Guns

02-07-2015, 08:09

Those pictures are only comparable if you view them in a vacuum paying no regard to the person in the picture or current events.

The error here is liberals trying to compare a woman showing support for Constitutional rights while not harming anyone to a women who uses religion to justify the killing of those different than her.

Exactly. The photo of the American girl is a display of:

Patriotism
Patriotism based on the founding documents that state all are equal and free
She's not threatening anyone with death if they don't convert to Christianity
She's not professing love and support for a religious/political/legal system that degrades women and infidels and believes they should be put to death if they don't "believe" or conform
I'm doubtful she teaches her children to hate others because that probably runs contrary to her faith
She most likely doesn't attend church where the message is hate and death to non-believers
She most likely attends church where the message is love and tolerance to others...even the woman in the other photo

The Muslim woman in the other photo believes in just the opposite.

Comparing modern, radical Islam with Christian practices of several hundred to a thousand years ago is ridiculous. Christian churches of today no longer follow the practices of the inquisition. The Muslim faith is just as barbaric as it's ever been as practiced and preached by radicals. Time has stood still for those people.

roberth

02-07-2015, 08:13

Exactly. The photo of the American girl is a display of:

Patriotism
Patriotism based on the founding documents that state all are equal and free
She's not threatening anyone with death if they don't convert to Christianity
She's not professing love and support for a religious/political/legal system that degrades women and infidels and believes they should be put to death if they don't "believe" or conform
I'm doubtful she teaches her children to hate others because that probably runs contrary to her faith
She most likely doesn't attend church where the message is hate and death to non-believers
She most likely attends church where the message is love and tolerance to others...even the woman in the other photo

The Muslim woman in the other photo believes in just the opposite.

Comparing modern, radical Islam with Christian practices of several hundred to a thousand years ago is ridiculous. Christian churches of today no longer follow the practices of the inquisition. The Muslim faith is just as barbaric as it's ever been as practiced and preached by radicals. Time has stood still for those people.

Well said.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/02/obama-quietly-reveals-that-he-met-with-muslim-leaders-with-ties-to-hamas-and-the-muslim-brotherhood?utm_source=Jihad+Watch+Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=d5ac6b9baa-Daily_Digest&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ffcbf57bbb-d5ac6b9baa-123519309

The White House has finally divulged the names of American Muslim leaders who met with President Obama this week, including Imam Mohamed Magid, who has advised the administration on formulating responses to incidents that Islamists consider offensive.
After stonewalling journalists for two days about the names of the participants at the meeting Wednesday, the White House quietly attached the list of attendees to the end of its daily press briefing transcript Thursday evening.
The guest list identified Imam Magid as a representative of the Adams Center, a large mosque in Sterling, Virginia. He has also served as president of the Islamic Society of North America, according to the group’s website.

Is anyone still wondering why Obama supports Islam versus the Constitution of These United States?

HoneyBadger

02-07-2015, 09:47

Still waiting for the intellectual rebuttal to the argument I made.
Still waiting for the original intellectual argument...

tmckay2

02-07-2015, 09:56

Still waiting for the intellectual rebuttal to the argument I made.

when i see some form of intellectual argument i will rebut with an intellectual answer.

i might as well post a picture of a chocolate donut and a car tire and say they are the same thing, then wait for an intellectual rebuttal.

Rucker61

02-07-2015, 10:26

Still waiting for the intellectual rebuttal to the argument I made.

There is no difference in either woman posing for a picture. I don't, however, see very many reports of Southern Christian rednecks cutting off people's heads, ,burning them alive or blowing them up.

TFOGGER

02-07-2015, 10:58

There is no difference in either woman posing for a picture. I don't, however, see very many reports of Southern Christian rednecks cutting off people's heads, ,burning them alive or blowing them up.

They aren't big on beheadings, but the case can be made that hey have shot, burned,hanged, and blown up people for their beliefs, in our lifetime. Not in the name of religion, but in the pursuit of "racial purity". Willfullly ignorant idiots have committed acts of barbarism for as long as mankind has been living in groups. Wahabi Islam is unique in that it glorifies such behavior.

HoneyBadger

02-07-2015, 12:10

http://i.imgur.com/Qp4uU66.jpg

Bailey Guns

02-07-2015, 13:18

They aren't big on beheadings, but the case can be made that hey have shot, burned,hanged, and blown up people for their beliefs, in our lifetime. Not in the name of religion, but in the pursuit of "racial purity". Willfullly ignorant idiots have committed acts of barbarism for as long as mankind has been living in groups. Wahabi Islam is unique in that it glorifies such behavior.

I would agree with that. I'd add further it isn't limited to only one race...all have been guilty of it here in this country. I'd also add that in the western world it's almost immediately and universally condemned by society as a whole and by governments. These same societies go to great lengths to bring the guilty to justice as quickly as possible.

That doesn't always happen in Muslim countries...though in the case of the Jordanian pilot that seems to have changed.

BPTactical

02-07-2015, 14:38

FBHO

wctriumph

02-07-2015, 16:42

The REALLY silly thing?
That ALL of the bloodshed in the name of Christ, Mudhamhead,Sheba, Buddha etc has all been done over what?
The "word" and "message of a "Supreme Being", an unproven deity??

In reality, a Fairy Tale of sorts.

Disclaimer: I know that statement will arouse the ire of some, that is not it's intent.
Billions BELIEVE, none KNOW.

Bert, I KNOW. And if we ever meet and it is appropriate, I will be happy to explain (testify) it to you. Open invitation for a personal discussion.
Peace.

TEA

III

bellavite1

02-07-2015, 19:00

Awww shucks

R u trolling on me? [Coffee]

TFOGGER

02-07-2015, 19:09

I would agree with that. I'd add further it isn't limited to only one race...all have been guilty of it here in this country. I'd also add that in the western world it's almost immediately and universally condemned by society as a whole and by governments. These same societies go to great lengths to bring the guilty to justice as quickly as possible.

That doesn't always happen in Muslim countries...though in the case of the Jordanian pilot that seems to have changed.

Yeah, the Jordanians seem to be rather irked with ISIL. A quote has King Abdullah saying they would attack "until we run out of fuel and bombs"...and we are supplying them with bombs.

bellavite1

02-07-2015, 19:15

Why? Your belief system is as relevant as Christianity or Judaism or any of the others. Present tense, the only system I see committing wholesale murder is Islam.

All this comparison of the Crusades to what Islam did is just avoiding a confrontation with Islam (in addition to the gross ignorance), it is cowardly and has no purpose in the present. Humans need this confrontation so the good guys (everyone against Islam in this case) can win. Then we can go back to bickering about Protestant vs Catholic or whatever.

I am sitting this one out because i am essentially an atheist.
I don't believe in supernatural beings of any kind.
My life is what i make of it and i will not blame my mistakes on anyone or anything but myself.
Religion, all religions, are dogmatic and as such, in my view, evil and harmful to society.
"My god is the only true god and if you don't convert you will burn in hell/be decapitated/drowned/set on fire".
Not good: all the holy texts have something like that in them.
Just because some more evolved societies choose to read them " selectively" does not make the actual message more civilized.
If the only thing keeping people from killing each other and raping babies is the fear of a godly punishment, they don't need religion, they need morals.
There, you guys asked for it. [Beer]

BPTactical

02-07-2015, 19:31

Bert, I KNOW. And if we ever meet and it is appropriate, I will be happy to explain (testify) it to you. Open invitation for a personal discussion.
Peace.

TEA

III

We're sorry, your software is not compatible with our operating system. Please select a different hard drive and attempt installation again.

cstone

02-07-2015, 19:37

HoneyBadger

02-07-2015, 20:13

I am happy we live in a nation where we are free to choose what we believe and not face persecution from the government for our choices.

While I may not agree with the choices of others, I am capable of respecting their choices.
Agreed. I'm glad this thread hasn't consisted of a bunch of religious insults and bickering. Good job guys. [Beer]

theGinsue

02-07-2015, 20:37

I am happy we live in a nation where we are free to choose what we believe and not face persecution from the government for our choices.

While I may not agree with the choices of others, I am capable of respecting their choices so long as they don't intrude upon my choices.

With that slight edit, this is my belief as well.

Duman

02-07-2015, 22:32

Honey Badger282.8

02-08-2015, 07:57

Who's 'da babe in 'da burka? [Sarcasm2]

I was land based for my last deployment in the Navy for six months, there was this really nice and upscale mall that we'd go to on our off time and you wouldn't believe how beautiful some of the women are over there. We got pretty good at being able to see through the Niqabs as well.

Bailey Guns

02-09-2015, 17:38

“We will be happy to keep an eye out for runaway Christians, but it would be nice if he would face the reality of the situation today. The Medieval Christian threat is under control Mr. President. Please deal with the Radical Islamic threat today.” - Gov Bobby Jindal

Sawin

02-09-2015, 18:07

Bert, I KNOW. And if we ever meet and it is appropriate, I will be happy to explain (testify) it to you. Open invitation for a personal discussion.
Peace.

TEA

III

I'd love to hear your testimony if you'd be willing to share it. If so, shoot me a PM.

Ah Pook

02-09-2015, 18:08

https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by cstone https://www.ar-15.co/images/tf_ideal/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.ar-15.co/showthread.php?p=1840955#post1840955)
I am happy we live in a nation where we are free to choose what we believe and not face persecution from the government for our choices.

While I may not agree with the choices of others, I am capable of respecting their choices so long as they don't intrude upon my choices.

With that slight edit, this is my belief as well.
+2

ZERO THEORY

02-09-2015, 20:05

Bert, I KNOW. And if we ever meet and it is appropriate, I will be happy to explain (testify) it to you. Open invitation for a personal discussion.

I'd be interested to hear any objective account of an event with binary truth value. In other words, no "visions", no "conversations with X", no divine intervention anecdotes, or any other personal interpretations or accounts that are subject to the illegitimacy of hallucination, interpretation, or subjective belief.

Thus far, we have had literally zero such accounts in history. If you know for sure, please regale us as this is without doubt the most significant event in the history of mankind. Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely interested in what you've got because if nothing else, the idea of omnipotence is awesome.

cstone

02-09-2015, 20:42

I believe we were all created to believe in something as the most important thing in the universe. Most people choose their self as that thing.

Belief with proof is not faith and God requires faith to believe.

When I consider the lives and deaths of the men who walked, talked, and ate with Jesus, I am struck by how they were either insane to die violent deaths for a lie or they were wholly convinced that what they witnessed was so true it mattered more than how they were killed.

Some of the greatest Christians in history started out as atheists and persecutors of the church. So ironic.

tmckay2

02-09-2015, 21:10

what you are asking for is of course impossible, which i am sure you know and thus why you asked for it. i have seen things in my life, particularly when i was actively doing missions, that to this day make the hair stand up on my neck just thinking about it. i mean real life, in your face, miracles. they do happen, but the problem is people expect them to happen in the comfort of their home or american comfortable life. in my personal experience, i only witnessed things of that nature in hostile, third world country situations where i had no distractions and nothing to fall back on.

EVERYTHING can be interpreted. we have zero of these events in history because people such as yourself will do whatever is necessary to find a way to explain anything, and frankly everything that happens can at least be attempted to be explained. faith isn't made to be a huge part for no reason. a person could say that without a doubt God came down, stood right in front of a person and said x,y,z and everyone will (understandably so) call BS because they themselves didn't see it. i do find it humorous though that non-believers cite their lack of such an event or experience as a reason they don't believe. what do they expect? even since i have started living a "normal" life, working full time and such, i haven't had near the experiences i did when i was in college and spent summers overseas in hostile places. i think there is something to that. partly i think we need to be detached from our culture to even recognize the works of God, but i also think he comes through most when we need him most, and by that i mean sharing faith in a place you can be executed if caught. i strongly believe, from my experiences, if you put yourself out there and on the line, God doesn't disappoint.

i understand why people don't believe. especially in our modern, high tech society. i have a huge science background, so i get it. but i would caution anyone to mock those that do believe and that cite their crazy experiences, because they very well might be real. its one thing to say you simply don't know, to mock those for their beliefs or say you know undoubtedly that there is no God is in my opinion ignorant and even counter to human intelligence and rationale. what we know as science takes just as much faith and has just as many unanswered questions, so when people act as though they can hide behind science as proof God doesn't exist, well that just shows how truly ignorant they are.

its a damn shame people these days can't have open dialogues about these types of things without it turning ugly and nasty.

I'd be interested to hear any objective account of an event with binary truth value. In other words, no "visions", no "conversations with X", no divine intervention anecdotes, or any other personal interpretations or accounts that are subject to the illegitimacy of hallucination, interpretation, or subjective belief.

Thus far, we have had literally zero such accounts in history. If you know for sure, please regale us as this is without doubt the most significant event in the history of mankind. Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely interested in what you've got because if nothing else, the idea of omnipotence is awesome.

HoneyBadger

02-09-2015, 21:13

ZERO THEORY

02-09-2015, 21:30

Belief with proof is not faith and God requires faith to believe.

I've always been confused about this. God, at least in the Abrahamic denominations, always comes across as so black-and-white. A very severe and straight-forward entity who leaves no room for ambiguity. For his word to be so strongly clear and then his practice to be left to faith is so inconsistent. Why would he want to test people? I suppose none of us can know the motives of God, and only having my human frames of reference, it's...illogical. Not in a scientific sense, just in terms of human interaction.

When I consider the lives and deaths of the men who walked, talked, and ate with Jesus, I am struck by how they were either insane to die violent deaths for a lie or they were wholly convinced that what they witnessed was so true it mattered more than how they were killed.

It is indeed profound. The men who flew those planes into the towers were of the same constitution, presumably facing the same righteousness or insanity. That's a scary proposition.

what you are asking for is of course impossible, which i am sure you know and thus why you asked for it.

Untrue. I'm not looking to disprove or provoke anyone. Differing beliefs have zero net effect on my life. And for what it's worth, I envy the true God-fearing man. I was one such person in my younger years; running the children's program at my family church into high school.

i have seen things in my life, particularly when i was actively doing missions, that to this day make the hair stand up on my neck just thinking about it. i mean real life, in your face, miracles. they do happen, but the problem is people expect them to happen in the comfort of their home or american comfortable life. in my personal experience, i only witnessed things of that nature in hostile, third world country situations where i had no distractions and nothing to fall back on.

Can/will you share these experiences? It's interesting.

HoneyBadger

02-09-2015, 21:43

I'd be interested to hear any objective account of an event with binary truth value. In other words, no "visions", no "conversations with X", no divine intervention anecdotes, or any other personal interpretations or accounts that are subject to the illegitimacy of hallucination, interpretation, or subjective belief.

Thus far, we have had literally zero such accounts in history. If you know for sure, please regale us as this is without doubt the most significant event in the history of mankind. Not being sarcastic, I am genuinely interested in what you've got because if nothing else, the idea of omnipotence is awesome.
Dozens of miracles have been scientifically confirmed and hundreds more are still otherwise unexplained. A simple google search will yield many results:
http://listverse.com/2008/07/14/top-10-astonishing-miracles/
http://www.marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm

cstone

02-09-2015, 21:51

It is indeed profound. The men who flew those planes into the towers were of the same constitution, presumably facing the same righteousness or insanity. That's a scary proposition.

To compare men who were willing to be put to death by the state rather than recant their belief, to men who killed thousands in order to gain worth in their community and attain paradise is truly one of the saddest things I've read on this board. I take from your statement you agree with the sentiment that Christians are the same as Muslim terrorists?

I hope you find what you are looking for.

hollohas

02-09-2015, 22:02

Thank you cstone.

ZERO THEORY

02-09-2015, 22:07

To compare men who were willing to be put to death by the state rather than recant their belief, to men who killed thousands in order to gain worth in their community and attain paradise is truly one of the saddest things I've read on this board.

I'm sorry you feel that way. My suggestion is based on the fact that it is incredibly profound how much dedication and conviction goes into standing by God. Righteousness, insanity, purpose...these are all subjective to any other faith. It's scary that the paradigms can be construed to commit atrocities as is the case with terrorist groups like the AQI, ISIS, Taliban, et. al. More importantly, someone's right. And if it's groups like the afore-mentioned, life is horror from our perspective.

I take from your statement you agree with the sentiment that Christians are the same as Muslim terrorists?

You have drastically mistaken my statement, in this case.

cstone

02-09-2015, 22:14

Maybe you can explain how the 11 disciples were like the 19 hijackers. How many people did Jesus and 11 of his disciples kill while they were being executed?

What others have done in the name of Christ is certainly not based on the example provided by his closest followers.

ZERO THEORY

02-09-2015, 22:35

Maybe you can explain how the 11 disciples were like the 19 hijackers. How many people did Jesus and 11 of his disciples kill while they were being executed?

They weren't. I never suggested that they were. Not even a little bit. I will try a third time.

It is profound how obedience and faith in God can produce different results. Since religion is interpretive, it is sad and scary that it can lead to extremism. What is most scary, however, is that if we assume that God does exist and has a singular set of rules, it is possible, by definition and binary capability that the savage, merciless, disgusting fringe humans who make up deplorable groups responsible for today's terror could actually be the righteous ones. This is the mathematical and metaphysical possibility of differing interpretations and convictions. I find their behavior as heretical, fanatical, and miserable as they find mine and yours. Since both parties are 100% knowing in their righteousness, what if their antiquated, backwards, and oppressive belief system was actually the one?

It is a philosophical quandary that brings me great consternation and fear. I am as positive as I can be that God does not want people flying planes into buildings or hanging people. I also recognize the fact that I could be wrong. I am merely reflecting upon that possibility and the implications of the people who believe in that sort of extremism.

What others have done in the name of Christ is certainly not based on the example provided by his closest followers.

We were never in disagreement there.

cstone

02-09-2015, 23:42

I believe we agree that some beliefs produce different results. Results and motivation are important. Any righteousness I may have attributed to me is not of my doing. There is nothing I can do which would credit me as righteous before a Holy God. How could I, or any of us presume to judge a perfect Creator. It would be simpler for an AK to verbally criticize Mikhail Kalashnikov.

We should all fear any being who can speak a universe into existence. I am perplexed by God and why he would choose me and not another, but I recognize that my understanding is not equal to his.

Keep seeking, and if you ever wonder what is most important in life, these words give me clarity: But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. God is love, and greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

HoneyBadger

02-10-2015, 08:51

I'd be interested to hear any objective account of an event with binary truth value. In other words, no "visions", no "conversations with X", no divine intervention anecdotes, or any other personal interpretations or accounts that are subject to the illegitimacy of hallucination, interpretation, or subjective belief.

Thus far, we have had literally zero such accounts in history. If you know for sure, please regale us as this is without doubt the most significant event in the history of mankind.

Dozens of miracles have been scientifically confirmed and hundreds more are still otherwise unexplained. A simple google search will yield many results:
http://listverse.com/2008/07/14/top-10-astonishing-miracles/
http://www.marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm

I'm regaling you... [Wave]

davsel

02-10-2015, 09:32

They weren't. I never suggested that they were. Not even a little bit. I will try a third time.

It is profound how obedience and faith in God can produce different results. Since religion is interpretive, it is sad and scary that it can lead to extremism. What is most scary, however, is that if we assume that God does exist and has a singular set of rules, it is possible, by definition and binary capability that the savage, merciless, disgusting fringe humans who make up deplorable groups responsible for today's terror could actually be the righteous ones. This is the mathematical and metaphysical possibility of differing interpretations and convictions. I find their behavior as heretical, fanatical, and miserable as they find mine and yours. Since both parties are 100% knowing in their righteousness, what if their antiquated, backwards, and oppressive belief system was actually the one?

It is a philosophical quandary that brings me great consternation and fear. I am as positive as I can be that God does not want people flying planes into buildings or hanging people. I also recognize the fact that I could be wrong. I am merely reflecting upon that possibility and the implications of the people who believe in that sort of extremism.

We were never in disagreement there.

It makes more sense when you realize Muslims to not worship the Judea/Christian God.

ZERO THEORY

02-10-2015, 09:38

I'm regaling you... [Wave]
I read the article and looked at the bodies. The article explicitly states that the anecdotes are believed to be miracles. I didn't see anything that confirms, denies, or does anything other than offer secondary information.

Particularly questionable are things like the alleged case of 17th century saint Joseph of Cupertino hovering above the crowd.

As for incorruptible corpses, the combination of questionable sources, motivations, non-religious accounts, and cases like the incorruptible cardinal who was a Mussolini fascist cast a long shadow of doubt for me.

davsel

02-10-2015, 09:38

A different perspective:

"Obama’s Drones Have Killed More Than the Spanish Inquisition"
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/07/obamas-drones-have-killed-more-than-the-spanish-inquisition/

HoneyBadger

02-10-2015, 11:03

I read the article and looked at the bodies. The article explicitly states that the anecdotes are believed to be miracles. I didn't see anything that confirms, denies, or does anything other than offer secondary information.

Particularly questionable are things like the alleged case of 17th century saint Joseph of Cupertino hovering above the crowd.

As for incorruptible corpses, the combination of questionable sources, motivations, non-religious accounts, and cases like the incorruptible cardinal who was a Mussolini fascist cast a long shadow of doubt for me.

There is nothing wrong with doubt. Questioning what you believe to be true is a righteous act in search of the truth.

I have seen several incorruptible corpses and I can assure you that they look as though they are still warm, and not through any slight of hand or trickery. Most of them have been encased in glass and under constant watch for decades or more.

Of course it is hard to believe stories of men flying because that is not at all ordinary, but that's exactly the point: these are extraordinary events that in many cases cannot be explained with science. Now, please don't misunderstand me: religion and science are absolutely not incompatible. In fact, many of the scientific discoveries that we make support what we have believed to be true in faith. However, miracles are generally considered to be events or acts that cannot be explained through science.

ZERO THEORY

02-10-2015, 13:06

A different perspective:

"Obama’s Drones Have Killed More Than the Spanish Inquisition"
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/07/obamas-drones-have-killed-more-than-the-spanish-inquisition/
Three of those were US citizens if memory serves me right. So much for due process.

HoneyBadger

02-10-2015, 13:25

Three of those were US citizens if memory serves me right. So much for due process.

Yeah, no kidding. What a mess...

ZERO THEORY

02-10-2015, 13:31

There is nothing wrong with doubt. Questioning what you believe to be true is a righteous act in search of the truth.

I have seen several incorruptible corpses and I can assure you that they look as though they are still warm, and not through any slight of hand or trickery. Most of them have been encased in glass and under constant watch for decades or more.

Of course it is hard to believe stories of men flying because that is not at all ordinary, but that's exactly the point: these are extraordinary events that in many cases cannot be explained with science. Now, please don't misunderstand me: religion and science are absolutely not incompatible. In fact, many of the scientific discoveries that we make support what we have believed to be true in faith. However, miracles are generally considered to be events or acts that cannot be explained through science.
You're certainly right about how inaccurate the whole "science vs religion" ideology is. Especially considering how many of the most important scientists represented the church.

By all accounts, the airplane is a miracle. Same for Penicillin and the refrigerator.

cstone

02-10-2015, 14:16

The odds against life existing anywhere in the universe is pretty astronomical. Some may even say it is a miracle. [Flower]

Duman

02-10-2015, 20:02

A different perspective:

"Obama’s Drones Have Killed More Than the Spanish Inquisition"

Reminds me of Mel Brooks', "History of the World: Part-I". Men in black dresses, in a well choreographed dance number.

BPTactical

02-10-2015, 20:13

The odds against life existing anywhere in the universe is pretty astronomical. Some may even say it is a miracle. [Flower]

I'm not so sure. With the vastness of space I would think that the possibility of life as we know it existing elsewhere is very real.
We know virtually nothing of what exists outside our solar system.

TFOGGER

02-10-2015, 20:15

I'm not so sure. With the vastness of space I would think that the possibility of life as we know it existing elsewhere is very real.
We know virtually nothing of what exists outside our tiny corner of the solar system.

Fixed.

cstone

02-10-2015, 20:20

Most astronomers believe that most of the universe is a vacuum. Where there is actual stuff, it is either too hot or too cold for molecules to form or have much growth. I believe the universe is large enough that there is a good chance that life exists elsewhere, but admit that I have never seen any proof to support that belief either. I do not believe that life is an accident.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

http://youtu.be/CSe38dzJYkY

TFOGGER

02-10-2015, 20:41

Life is so incredibly pervasive here on earth, existing and thriving in so many "impossible" environments, that I personally have a very hard time believing that it is confined to our tiny planet, out of the millions of planets in the "Goldilocks Zone" that presumably exist, based on the several dozen that have been detected in our limited observation so far. It is not a conflict with faith to believe that a Creator has fostered diverse life in other places, it is conceit to believe that we are the highest form of life in this vast universe.

wctriumph

02-10-2015, 21:08

While there may not be life on any other planet or moon in our solar system, there is most likely life of one sort or another in our galaxy and there must be in other galaxies as well. Why would the creator create such a large universe if not to put life in it. If you prefer evolution, then surely there is life evolving elsewhere out there.

The president however, is an impossible idiot and I believe that he does not have a clue about life outside his own personal bubble.

Duman

02-11-2015, 20:21

Given the billions, and billions (with a Carl Sagan emphasis) of stars, planets, and galaxies, life on other worlds is almost a certainty.

However, intelligent life is another matter altogether. We're still looking for it here on earth....

Ronin13

02-12-2015, 12:28

This is mostly a rebuke to what asmo said (I apologize for the delayed response):
Let's take a look at the fundamental differences between the Holy Bible (and Torah) and the Koran. Over the years, the evolution of the biblical belief held by modern Christians has largely been even and fair. There was the old way and the post-Christ way things occurred. The old way (IE: Old Testament) God was merciful, yet vengeful as he saw sin lay waste to the beautiful world he created. So he cleansed it (the flood). Then man began to get belligerent again and he tried a different approach (angels). Still his will was not being followed the way it should have been (the 10 Commandments), so he tried a softer hand approach and allowed his only son to take on the debt of all sin so that man could be forgiven for the sins they would inevitably commit. Jesus saved mankind, and thus his teachings (New Testament) became a map for how the word should be interpreted. Jesus taught that man should be kind, forgive often, and treat each other well, regardless of how they were treated. Wars, seizures and other hostile acts in his name were largely wrong, and now the belligerents who carry out these acts are viewed by an overwhelming majority as evil- and it is outspoken that this evil is not in line with the Christian way. Modern interpretations of the Bible are varied and loose depending upon the individual utilizing the teachings in the bible, yet for the most part, they are about kindness, tolerance and peaceful coexistence with other faiths.

Now the Koran. It is not open to interpretation other than literally. It is taught, and enforced, that any later passages that contradict former passages stand over those contradicted. It starts with Mohammad being a peaceful man and over time his power and viciousness grows. His hate and vitriol directed at non-Muslims grows more and more barbaric as tolerance gives way to domination. The very word Islam means "to submit." It goes further than submission to Allah, it is held that all who do not submit to Allah must submit to Islamic rule and law, and those who do not are to be killed. Seeing as how the Koran goes in the opposite direction of the Bible's teachings (from vengeful and angry to peaceful and tolerant, based more upon forgiveness than punishment), it can be held that while at one point Christianity was a young, immature religion, it grew into a more caring and peaceful one. Islam, however, has largely, throughout the history of the belief structure, remained and potentially will remain violent, intolerant, and unable to cope with other religious ideals peacefully. The evidence supporting this fact is clear in every corner of the globe. Nations with multiple, non-Muslim religions are predominantly peaceful. Whereas any nation where Islam holds a majority, other religions are in constant threat.

Bottom line- Proclaiming the belief that the Crusades were an ugly time in Christian history is patently false. The Crusades were in response to the brutal, and merciless onslaught of Islamic take-over of once peaceful lands.