Attic insulation question.

[OtterbatHellcat]

Fricken gutters back up with ice dams after snow events with certain temperatures. Extremely frustrating.

I know about gutter heaters and the like, but I read somewhere that a likely cause would be not enough insulation from (in) the attic or into the eve/caufet areas, and to boot....my heat ducting runs through the roof instead of the floors. Insulation issues might really be the problem and I'd like to get it the hell fixed. Fricken dangerous with all this ice on my porch landings and the weight backing up in the gutters, and shingle damage, etc etc etc.

So, honorable attic insulation companies AND OR advice as to if it IS an insulation problem, I would most certainly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance, gentlemen.

[Irving]

Not to mention that ice damming can cause water to breach your roof as well when an ice and water shield is not installed. Are soffits usually insulated?

[Ah Pook]

My neighbor uses this stye. It keeps dams from forming.

http://www.coolflatroof.com/flat-roofing-blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/roof-heat-cable.jpg

[OtterbatHellcat]

I don't know, Irving...I assumed they were? I don't know shit about most of this stuff, I'm a mechanic. I do think stuff melts faster on my roof faster then neighbors homes do, and I know the ice dams are a serious problem, that's about it.

I trust my brothers here on this awesome board to maybe help me out with suggestions on this problem.

[OtterbatHellcat]

Pook, Ive seen that surfing the web....hoped I didn't have to go there though. When I read the insulation factor, it got me wondering.

I've lived in plenty other homes before that don't have gutter heaters, and not had this damn problem.


And thank you.

[def90]

If your ductwork is in your attic you may have to insulate that as well. You very well may have enough "attic" insulation but if your ducts are laying above that layer and they are not adequately insulated themselves they may just be heating the attic space and your roof, money may be flying out the window for that matter.

Heat tape works but is a band aid.

[Great-Kazoo]

How clean were your gutters? it's not going to resolve the ice issue, but doesn't hurt with drainage.

[Irving]

Well, even if the soffits are insulated, they are outside of the heated area of your home, which is why they freeze in the first place. Basically the same thing as bridges being icy because of having cold air above and below. Not to mention that soffits are supposed to have vents, so even with insulation, you could have ice dams above vents anyway. What I'm trying to say is that while I can't answer your question (but I agree with Ah Pook), I'm very interested to hear the answers that you get. Good advise I can offer though is to call your insurance agent and make sure that you have Code Upgrade coverage on your policy. That way, if a hail storm rips through town and trashes your roof, you won't have to foot the bill for things like Drip Edge and Ice & Water shield that a lot of cities/counties require when re-roofing houses. Code Upgrade is usually pretty cheap to have on a policy (like rental on an auto policy) and is well worth the cost.

Tagged for further info.

[Ah Pook]

I get ice dams on the north side all the time but it's a metal roof with a 2.5" overhang.

The neighbor's metal roof is flush and even with gutter screens, there are always pine needles and debis in the gutter. The heaters keep the dams down and gutters ice free but the water is still going to freeze somewhere.

[OtterbatHellcat]

If your ductwork is in your attic you may have to insulate that as well. You very well may have enough "attic" insulation but if your ducts are laying above that layer and they are not adequately insulated themselves they may just be heating the attic space and your roof, money may be flying out the window for that matter.

Heat tape works but is a band aid.

I've not been up in there myself yet, just moved in 7 months ago. I'll check that out on the ducts, and see about the insulation too. Whats already up there, I mean.


How clean were your gutters? it's not going to resolve the ice issue, but doesn't hurt with drainage.

Cleaned 'em all out in the fall AND after the first time this shit happened a month or so ago, Jim. I know it's not debris this time.


Well, even if the soffits are insulated, they are outside of the heated area of your home, which is why they freeze in the first place. Basically the same thing as bridges being icy because of having cold air above and below. Not to mention that soffits are supposed to have vents, so even with insulation, you could have ice dams above vents anyway. What I'm trying to say is that while I can't answer your question (but I agree with Ah Pook), I'm very interested to hear the answers that you get. Good advise I can offer though is to call your insurance agent and make sure that you have Code Upgrade coverage on your policy. That way, if a hail storm rips through town and trashes your roof, you won't have to foot the bill for things like Drip Edge and Ice & Water shield that a lot of cities/counties require when re-roofing houses. Code Upgrade is usually pretty cheap to have on a policy (like rental on an auto policy) and is well worth the cost.

Tagged for further info.

Code Upgrade Coverage....okay, Irving. Thank you.

[Wulf202]

Cant make a call without seeing the building. Insulation is possible to cause that but it depends on the facing construction type and the weather patterns. Just too many variables.

Extra insulation will save you money in the long run though.

[USMC88-93]

What does it usually cost to have existing insulation vacuumed out if I want it removed before installing new?

[OtterbatHellcat]

11 year old building in an old neighborhood. Roof pitch is probably on the order of 4 to 5 - 12. The house has a stucco finish on it, and the facia soffet stuff is basic press formed composite wood type material. soffet does have vents and all.

I know that I really need to get up there and see what kind of insulation is on the ducting itself, like def90 brought up.

I'd really rather avoid the gutter heaters because they're unsightly, cost money to buy, and install/have installed, and the cost of electricity to operate them...especially off a thermostat only. And who knows what any type of maintenance costs would be. And as you pointed out, Wulf, the insulation cost would still benefit me either way in the long run.

I just want to know what the correct fix is for my particular problem. Nobody likes pissing money away.....I don't.

[OtterbatHellcat]

What does it usually cost to have existing insulation vacuumed out if I want it removed before installing new?

Interesting question. Does old have to be removed? I thought those folks just came in and added to what already existed?

[USMC88-93]

Interesting question. Does old have to be removed? I thought those folks just came in and added to what already existed?

I want mine removed as the house was built in 42 and the stuff that is up there at this point accomplishes little to nothing. Removing it while not necessarily being necessary would be my preference.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/PhotoTWB/House/Houseattic1208041stairwayfixture.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/PhotoTWB/media/House/Houseattic1208041stairwayfixture.jpg.html)

[gnihcraes]

What does it usually cost to have existing insulation vacuumed out if I want it removed before installing new?

Check with Big Al's insulation here in town. It's been 10 years ago, but they came and sucked out all my old shit for $500. Dang was that worth it! Hour or so and they had the attic clean! Insulation, dirt, sawdust and everything else that was there. Wish I could find the pictures to post it up, was cool.

I believe this is them. http://www.bigalsinsulating.com/

[OtterbatHellcat]

Damn.....I can see wanting that crap removed. I hope my pad has more insulation up there than THAT !! sheesh.

[Irving]

I'd like to remove my old stuff as well. Be nice to see what junk/treasures are up there, then have it all blown in again with better stuff.

[jslo]

Ideally you want R 30 insulation in attic, baffles to keep an air gap between insulation and roof deck at soffits and soffit vents and adequate gable or roof vents to allow good air circulation.

[Wulf202]

What direction does the frozen gutter face? Is this the only time? Or every time. Do they over flow? When you cleaned them did you do it from the ground or roof? What kind of hangers were used?

One of the problems with modern gutter installers is they all want to hang em with neutral slope. One slipped hanger or a slight settle to the building and you can go from neutral to negative slope.

[buffalobo]

Just get rid of the gutters, no more ice damns.[emoji102] [emoji6]

[Sackett]

Ideally you want R 30 insulation in attic, baffles to keep an air gap between insulation and roof deck at soffits and soffit vents and adequate gable or roof vents to allow good air circulation.

Current code requires R-38 in the attic plus, more is better. Remember, the attic insulation is not to keep your attic warm, it is to keep your house warm. "Lack" of insulation in your attic should have no bearing on ice formation in your gutters, as your attic is going to be not too much warmer than the outside. I would be curious to know if your soffit vents are blocked or if your roof jacks (or ridge vent) are clogged. Don't know why, but inadequate airflow is tickling the back of my brain.

[def90]

"Lack" of insulation in your attic should have no bearing on ice formation in your gutters, as your attic is going to be not too much warmer than the outside.

Yes it does to a point, it's a combination of insulation and ventilation. lack of insulation allows the heat to escape into the attic thus heating the roof, even with poor ventilation if you have good insulation you shouldn't have a problem. The snow on the roof melts and trickles down until it gets to the eave which is now cooler than the heated roof due to a lack of a heat source underneath it and then refreezes creating an ice dam. Proper ventilation will help prevent this as heat is allowed to escape through the roof vents and cooler air is drawn in through the soffit vents. Either way, the proper way to prevent/fix ice daming is to make sure your attic is properly insulated as well as properly ventilated, they go hand in hand. Also, don't forget to seal all of the openings in the top plates of all the walls before putting in the insulation.

[Wulf202]

Lack of insulation causes heat to get dumped in the attic causing the roof to get warm and melt the snow which then runs down to the gutters which are un heated and then the water will freeze before it gets to the down spout assuming the ambient temperature is cold enough.

Lack of airflow alone will cause cold spots. You can actually see the overstuffed stud cavities the day after a light snow on alot of the old a framed houses.

No matter how much insulation you have the attic should be about the same as the ambient. The insulation blocks the heat transfer from the attic to the living space.

[Sackett]

Well said, Def. I knew that ventilation had a part but didn't put together the lack of insulation. Building science...always learning.

[Wulf202]

Ninja'd by def.

[OtterbatHellcat]

Thanks guys....

I did get my ass all up in the attic today, and I DO have like 8 inch baffle insulation layed all out through the affected area, AND i noticed its not really laid down all that well. SEEMS to me that I really do have too much heat escaping from the home heating process up into the attic space. The attic designed heating/ cooling ducts ARE and ARE not fully insulated as I would think they should be. Ancillary sheet metal does have insulation surrounding the arteries, but the main trunk has nothing on it at all??

Do I need to insulate the main trunk? I would think so.

Would it be prudent to go ahead and dump a butt ton of that fluffy insulation stuff all over the stuff that is already there?

[Wulf202]

First make sure the ducts seams are sealed with tape or liquid duct sealant. The main trunk may be insulated on the inside.

Its going to be alot easier to throw some batts down than do blown in. If you're going to do blown in just add several inches to the whole place.

Blue sky will sell batts 20% or so cheaper than depot

[OtterbatHellcat]

Thanks Wulf.

[Wulf202]

bluesealsam@gmail.com

Correction blue seal not sky.

I might have some r38 craft batts left over this summer

[OtterbatHellcat]

Thank you, Wulf......just a tick too late though. I've already contracted with an outfit that's going to blow the whole damn thing full next Friday, weather permitting. They're going to take care of a few other things while they're up there as well.

I appreciate it very much though.

[rondog]

Man, I'd really like to hire a pro to evaluate our house and reinsulate as needed! It's not something I can do, and I'm clueless about the subject anyway. But I'm sure improvements are needed.

[OtterbatHellcat]

The place I went with had good reviews, but I won't recommend them to my brothers here until I see how they do.