View Full Version : What the heck is up with Federal Law Enforcement ?
This is not a cop bashing thread, please don't twist it.
I've been lurking for a while so I apologize if this is a repost. I have a number of really good friends involved with Federal law enforcement and while being good drinkers and they are also total professionals. As a pilot, I also know the media can blow things out of proportion to create a story. That being said, what the hell is going on with Federal Law Enforcement Agencies?! First of all of the issues with a few agents from the Secret Service leading to another leadership change. This combined with the security breeches doesn't seem to create a high level of confidence given the tax dollars spent on this detail. Now we have the DEA and U.S. Marshals being caught up in scandals based on professionalism? The DEA mess seems to be pretty serious when your turned in by the guys your investigating. 2-10 day suspensions for cohorting with cartel prostitutes and taking gifts from their bosses and you get a 2-10 day suspension? What the hell does it take to get fired from one of these places? I think we need to bring in a certain member to clean house at a couple of these agencies. Again, this is not a cop bashing thread so if your going there ....leave. I am just seriously curious what it takes to get fired from one of these places and what type of oversight is going on.
Aloha_Shooter
04-23-2015, 08:18
The DoJ and other parts of the federal bureaucracy started going to hell during the Clinton Administration when they cleaned house of people who might not follow WH instructions to persecute political enemies or tamp down on burgeoning Clinton scandals. The IRS used to be very serious about being non-partisan -- the whole deal with Lois Lerner shows that went away a while ago. The Park Service was purely apolitical until the Clinton-Gingrich budget battles. The Park Service and others were reluctant participants during the Clinton efforts to make taxpayers feel burdened by government shutdowns but became enthusiastic co-conspirators in the Obama campaign to inflict pain on the US taxpayer when the GOP attempted to restrain the Obama budget. This doesn't appear to have been fixed during the Bush administration and of course Obama and Holder just accentuated the decay that started when Holder was Dep AG.
The transformation of the federal bureaucracy from public servants to federal unionists (and I don't mean in a Battle Hymn of the Republic sort of way) has a great deal to do with the loss of professionalism in various agencies.
Look at the culture in Washington/FedGov and ask yourself: Would your heart be in it?
Mine wouldn't and I'm just being honest. Yes, it's a job with good benefits, but it's not like the people you serve in that position are making the world a better place. Most of our leadership is in it for themselves and transferring power from the People to their pet causes and personal politics.
Just think about someone working in DHS fighting terrorism (a noble job)... Breaking his back to make sure the bad people can't set off a dirty bomb in NYC only to see our President embolden Islamists and make deals with Iran. And the next guy, Hillary, is owned by the same people, so what's going to change?
Kind of hard to be a hero while serving thieves and professional liars and we can never be better than our bosses in any profession (public or private sector).
Just my take. I was seriously talking to an FBI recruiter while I was in school after my enlistment--this was back in '98ish. I wised up fast (nothing against those in Federal LE).
Great-Kazoo
04-23-2015, 08:38
Based on the family involved with LE. it's the higher ups withing the system who are more concerned with being PC to advance their own careers, over the safety of the officers below them.
Kind of hard to be a hero while serving thieves and professional liars and we can never be better than our bosses in any profession (public or private sector).
Oddly enough I feel in many ways that I and many of my colleagues are better than many of our bosses.
No amount of corruptions in others and your environment are acceptable excuses for your own lack of integrity.
The only people I've ever met who wanted to be a "hero" had personal mental and emotional instability issues.
IMO, the searchlight for "news" is always turning. Sometimes it catches something and like a dog on a bone or sent, it keeps looking and digging. Many of these recent issues have been around in varying degrees for decades. This is the natural disinfectant of sunlight.
IMO, the Clinton Administration had a devastating impact on the US Secret Service.
Bailey Guns
04-23-2015, 08:47
It happens when there's no leadership at any level above you.
Great replies. Thanks for the insight AS. One of my best friends is a position with DHS that puts him in the fray a lot. I've never seen him so beaten down and pissed off at the bureaucracy. Brand new helicopters with not enough funding to pay for gas or keep people current? He can't wait to get his time in and get out. Apparently we are headed towards pre 9/11 organization and mis-management. I still am a bit confused at how one gets a 2-10 day suspension and the director says that they can't be terminated after consorting and taking gifts from cartel members. There are a hell of a lot of guys who could do that job without being corrupted. When I was younger I had put my packet in with a few of these agencies. I think I may of made the right choice to steer clear and stay with the airlines.
It happens when there's no leadership at any level above you.
Exactly
Oddly enough I feel in many ways that I and many of my colleagues are better than many of our bosses.
No amount of corruptions in others and your environment are acceptable excuses for your own lack of integrity.
The only people I've ever met who wanted to be a "hero" had personal mental and emotional instability issues.
IMO, the searchlight for "news" is always turning. Sometimes it catches something and like a dog on a bone or sent, it keeps looking and digging. Many of these recent issues have been around in varying degrees for decades. This is the natural disinfectant of sunlight.
IMO, the Clinton Administration had a devastating impact on the US Secret Service.
We need people of your caliber running the show.
Ranger353
04-23-2015, 08:54
Each issue, and each agency, has its own complex problems based on different circumstances. I know some supervisors with the U.S. Marshal Service, I have been to some leadership courses with them, and they eat, sleep, and crap professional. Same with the couple of DEA and FBI folks I know. These are large bureaucracies, thousands of agents doing many things. There is always a small 1%-2% part of any bureaucracy that is not performing to standard, or worse actually doing wrong things.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush. I would still feel absolutely comfortable relying on those guys for my life. No questions asked. If you know a special agent in any of the federal LE agencies you can ask them "what do you think about (fill in the scandal)" and I bet that they will be more disgusted and angry over the issue than you are because most feel that a brother or sister has let them down, broke a sacred trust, or flat betrayed them all.
Each issue, and each agency, has its own complex problems based on different circumstances. I know some supervisors with the U.S. Marshal Service, I have been to some leadership courses with them, and they eat, sleep, and crap professional. Same with the couple of DEA and FBI folks I know. These are large bureaucracies, thousands of agents doing many things. There is always a small 1%-2% part of any bureaucracy that is not performing to standard, or worse actually doing wrong things.
Don't paint everyone with the same brush. I would still feel absolutely comfortable relying on those guys for my life. No questions asked. If you know a special agent in any of the federal LE agencies you can ask them "what do you think about (fill in the scandal)" and I bet that they will be more disgusted and angry over the issue than you are because most feel that a brother or sister has let them down, broke a sacred trust, or flat betrayed them all.
In no way am I thinking of all of the agents with the same skepticism. I have too many friends that work as agents in the Federal Govt and they are some of the most professional people I've ever been around. It's just the nature of the wrong doing by a few and the subsequent reprimands that bother me.
davewilson
04-23-2015, 09:07
I believe that the "tone from the top" principle applies to government as well as business. If subordinates of unethical and immoral managers don't adopt those unethical and immoral behaviors, then morale across the organization dramatically drops. In the federal government, particularly, it's difficult to give up a career and get away from a toxic atmosphere.
https://www.ventureline.com/accounting-glossary/T/tone-at-the-top-definition/
TONE AT THE TOP refers to how an organization's leadership creates the tone at the top - an ethical (or unethical) atmosphere in the workplace. Management's tone has a trickle-down effect on employees. If top managers uphold ethics and integrity so will employees. But if upper management appears unconcerned with ethics and focuses solely on the bottom line, employees will be more prone to commit fraud and feel that ethical conduct isn't a priority. In short, employees will follow the examples of their bosses
hurley842002
04-23-2015, 09:13
Mine wouldn't and I'm just being honest. Yes, it's a job with good benefits, but it's not like the people you serve in that position are making the world a better place. Most of our leadership is in it for themselves and transferring power from the People to their pet causes and personal politics.
With several years in LE at the state level, I can't help but address this statement.
If for one minute a PUBLIC SERVANT thinks the only people they are serving is their immediate supervisor, they are in the wrong profession.
I'm at a job where for the most part leadership changes every 5 years. It's almost never for the good of employees. Stock holders come first. However this never compromises our professionalism or safe nature under which we operate. Peoples lives depend on us always having our A game.
hurley842002
04-23-2015, 09:19
I'm at a job where for the most part leadership changes every 5 years. It's almost never for the good of employees. Stock holders come first. However this never compromises our professionalism or safe nature under which we operate. Peoples lives depend on us always having our A game.
Well said.
Oddly enough I feel in many ways that I and many of my colleagues are better than many of our bosses.
[snip]
I don't disagree that you are, objectively, but subjectively you are never valued/perceived to be better because a bad boss will drag everyone down.
And this is coming from someone who has worked for some horrible bosses (mostly private sector). Doesn't matter how hard the team works, or how much good they do, it can easily be flushed right down the shitter. In those cases, I acted with integrity and resigned because my heart could no longer be in it.
But if I were tied to a pension, benefits, decent paycheck, and faced questionable prospects I might make a different decision for my family.
I think this is one reason I am skeptical of public sector work in general. If it were structured more like private sector work, folks could exercise their conscious without feeling like they are throwing it all away.
With several years in LE at the state level, I can't help but address this statement.
If for one minute a PUBLIC SERVANT thinks the only people they are serving is their immediate supervisor, they are in the wrong profession.
As disconnected as Federal agencies, and employees are, I think does happen. With the limited insight we get into high profile cases (don't make me list them) we see that kind of behavior frequently. And it might be the minority but it seems to be getting the most sunlight these days.
I don't view local LE as being problematic and have never had a bad experience (except for Boulder Co years ago but that was a minor traffic ticket). Of course, this thread wasn't about local LE that has connections to the folks/communities they serve which I think is very positive for everyone.
hurley842002
04-23-2015, 10:02
As disconnected as Federal agencies, and employees are, I think does happen. With the limited insight we get into high profile cases (don't make me list them) we see that kind of behavior frequently. And it might be the minority but it seems to be getting the most sunlight these days.
I don't view local LE as being problematic and have never had a bad experience (except for Boulder Co years ago but that was a minor traffic ticket). Of course, this thread wasn't about local LE that has connections to the folks/communities they serve which I think is very positive for everyone.
I wasn't disputing if it happens or not, merely stating the way (I think?) it's supposed to be. I won't debate it tho, as I'm not very good at debating. Just feel the need to throw an opinion every now and then, usually going against my better judgment when I do.
I suppose I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. I know a few in the alphabet agencies that are actual agents. Most I know are in their legal depts.
When I talk to them and ask them about things.. it's interesting. They're being gutted on so many levels. It's been the good ol'boys club for too long. They need a massive shake up from the top down. Favors and 'owing' people are leading to horrible choices in running even the local levels. They've all said promotions aren't based on merit.. it's like the politburo.. it's who you know.
It happens when there's no leadership at any level above you.
+1 Compounded with bad and criminal leadership.
Aloha_Shooter
04-23-2015, 13:41
Apparently we are headed towards pre 9/11 organization and mis-management.
IMO we never fixed the mismanagement from pre-9/11, in part because the bureaucracy didn't want to admit there was mismanagement. It's easier to say things aren't connected that should be. In fact, I happen to think the Bush era reorganization made things worse because it created a whole new bureaucracy and nomenclatura with their own agendas but the federal bureaucracy was driven by needing to show some kind of change in the wake of 9/11.
I still am a bit confused at how one gets a 2-10 day suspension and the director says that they can't be terminated after consorting and taking gifts from cartel members. There are a hell of a lot of guys who could do that job without being corrupted.
Much as I agree with you philosophically, civil service rules make it incredibly difficult to get rid of someone. I can recall a case where a GS was found to have falsified TDYs and an O-5 had dedicated him/herself to removing said miscreant from the government rolls. Said miscreant was undoubtedly guilty -- to the point that the Reserves declined to activate him ever again. In the meantime, he was given a meaningless job while everyone waited for the government bureaucracy to play out. Time marched on and the dedicated O-5 had to PCS and then retire while the punk GS stayed on and eventually petitioned for reinstatement.
It pains me but I can certainly see the guys in question being willing to take a 2-10 day suspension but making noise about fighting really hard against anything more and I can see the SEIU or whatever union backing them on it. I would have loved for Congress to press the former head of DEA to explain exactly why she couldn't fire them to the point she had to admit publicly that the rules preventing such firing were imposed by Obama's federal union buddies. The federal unions couldn't wait for Rumsfeld to get forced out so they could reverse his changes to the GS system in DoD.
Skip mentioned local LE, and I can say from that perspective at the agency I work for (which can also apply to Federal as well), everyone has bad apples. We have a few that constantly screw up (I'll just say showing up to divorce court armed and in uniform is a bad move) and still work in the agency. It is a top down problem that doesn't address their problematic subordinates that breeds this. The US Marshalls I've met and trained with are among the most professional people I've yet to meet. That said, if the leadership doesn't weed out the bad ones it creates a mentality of "If X is jacked up and still here, WTF is going on with our highers?" It can create an environment of people who are protected (or seem that way), or the impression that the leadership doesn't care. Scandals will always plague the industry, what makes them worse is when there is little or no accountability.
I just want to reiterate what I said on the previous page because I sense some confusion about what I said...
This was a thread about Federal LE.
My experiences with local agencies over the years has been very positive and I fully support them. I know we hear lots of horror stories from around the country but we haven't seen that here. And for those of us with 2A friendly agencies, it's even better!
I would be very careful not to confuse local with Fed LE every time you see "LE." These are different agencies with different values/leadership and often different missions. We still have the ability to elect our own Sheriff (for now). We indirectly appoint chiefs via the election of a mayor (for now). We have great men and women who are members of our community in local LE--they live next to us, their kids go to school with everyone else, etc...
My lack of comfort with what I see happening at the Federal level should not be construed as a lack of comfort with local agencies.
hurley842002
04-24-2015, 08:23
I just want to reiterate what I said on the previous page because I sense some confusion about what I said...
This was a thread about Federal LE.
My experiences with local agencies over the years has been very positive and I fully support them. I know we hear lots of horror stories from around the country but we haven't seen that here. And for those of us with 2A friendly agencies, it's even better!
I would be very careful not to confuse local with Fed LE every time you see "LE." These are different agencies with different values/leadership and often different missions. We still have the ability to elect our own Sheriff (for now). We indirectly appoint chiefs via the election of a mayor (for now). We have great men and women who are members of our community in local LE--they live next to us, their kids go to school with everyone else, etc...
My lack of comfort with what I see happening at the Federal level should not be construed as a lack of comfort with local agencies.
I don't see that anyone is confusing anything, at least I'm not. I was speaking in general, as public servants we serve the public, not just our bosses at the top.
Skip mentioned local LE, and I can say from that perspective at the agency I work for (which can also apply to Federal as well), everyone has bad apples. We have a few that constantly screw up (I'll just say showing up to divorce court armed and in uniform is a bad move) and still work in the agency. It is a top down problem that doesn't address their problematic subordinates that breeds this. The US Marshalls I've met and trained with are among the most professional people I've yet to meet. That said, if the leadership doesn't weed out the bad ones it creates a mentality of "If X is jacked up and still here, WTF is going on with our highers?" It can create an environment of people who are protected (or seem that way), or the impression that the leadership doesn't care. Scandals will always plague the industry, what makes them worse is when there is little or no accountability.
I have a lot of friends at both levels of Law Enforcement. Those working for the government seem to reaching an all time low when it comes to moral. They just want to show up and go home due to inept leadership and beaurocratic bs. A couple just want to "shut up and color " until it comes time to retire. This can be a bit scary as they are our first line of defense when it comes to terrorist activity. The sad part is that these are great jobs that can make a difference when it comes to their mission. It doesn't matter how many assets you have of they are deployed wrong. At least they know where the bar is when it comes to getting fired. Leaving sensitive material and access to information to drug cartels is almost in excusable.
I have a lot of friends at both levels of Law Enforcement. Those working for the government seem to reaching an all time low when it comes to moral. They just want to show up and go home due to inept leadership and beaurocratic bs. A couple just want to "shut up and color " until it comes time to retire. This can be a bit scary as they are our first line of defense when it comes to terrorist activity. The sad part is that these are great jobs that can make a difference when it comes to their mission. It doesn't matter how many assets you have of they are deployed wrong. At least they know where the bar is when it comes to getting fired. Leaving sensitive material and access to information to drug cartels is almost in excusable.
That's really disconcerting... Talking to the US Marshalls that come up to our training facility, they love it. They must not be experiencing this. But I have heard that DEA and ICE are having issues. ICE of course is a whole different case, they are experiencing having their hands tied. The ICE agent that regularly works at our jail has been in CO for 3 months, she said when she was down in San Antonio they had 2x the work they have here and 50x the deportations. Not sure if it's because we're further from the border, but she can't wait for Obama to leave office and a more "immigration enforcement" friendly president allows for more ICE facility transfers and deportations. I've been at the jail for 6 months now and have seen only one ICE Facility transfer and I'm pretty sure he didn't get deported. When you're not allowed to do your job I can totally see how moral can be affected. /rant.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.