View Full Version : HK greatly expanding their US market
HoneyBadger
04-30-2015, 11:15
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/troubled-german-gunmaker-targets-u-s-love-of-firearms-for-sales
Just came across this: HK is trying to grow their US market by any means necessary because the statism and bureaucracy of Germany are choking them. Maybe we'll see some cool new toys from HK in the next few years! [Awesom]
Great-Kazoo
04-30-2015, 11:34
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/troubled-german-gunmaker-targets-u-s-love-of-firearms-for-sales
Just came across this: HK is trying to grow their US market by any means necessary because the statism and bureaucracy of Germany are choking them. Maybe we'll see some cool new toys from HK in the next few years! [Awesom]
That means low ball bidding for LE contracts.
Bailey Guns
04-30-2015, 12:05
Well, I don't have to worry about spending my money with HK, regardless of how much they expand their market.
I think they shunned us so long that I'm not really interested.
hurley842002
04-30-2015, 12:27
I think they shunned us so long that I'm not really interested.
Exactly
Zundfolge
04-30-2015, 13:11
If they could get their prices down to what their stuff is actually worth that would be a great start. I'd jump at a P2000 if it was priced like a Glock.
If they really wanted to impress me they could reintroduce the P7 (and make enough of them that the price comes in a hair under a grand).
They're going to have to do a lot to get over their whole "HK; because you suck and we hate you" image.
They don't really believe citizens should own guns.until that changes greatly no money from me, no matter the price or product. They're elitist of the highest order.
68Charger
04-30-2015, 14:14
I'm sure they'll have a market share- but I don't see it expanding much, they can't maintain their elitist attitude if average Joe can afford their wares. Maybe they could spin off a new brand, but I don't see them dragging the HK name down with silly things like affordable prices.
They have been trying to get shooters to sponsor. Most of the folks I know have turned them down, but if you are aggressive with social media and shoot USPSA/IDPA or 3Gun, it might be relatively easy to pick up a sponsorship.
HKs Motto to us peons -
You suck and we HATE you. I won't be buying an HK anytime soon.
I won't buy another HK ever.. I mean why would we civilians need anything like an mp7...
beast556
04-30-2015, 15:20
Im only interested in an mp-5 in the 1000$ range. Wont ever happen so screw Hk, now that they need money there attitude changes fuck them.
Bailey Guns
04-30-2015, 15:58
I see the Dark Force is strong with HK on this forum. (Need to come up with a good "Yoda-ism")
a crummy haiku
Heckler looks for you
a customer you are not
so disappointed
KestrelBike
04-30-2015, 16:51
Im only interested in an mp-5 in the 1000$ range. Wont ever happen so screw Hk, now that they need money there attitude changes fuck them.
Exactly. Even the clones are way too much.. Cheap paki pieces of crap go for $1,500 but buyer beware. Hk could easily produce them for U.S. civilians for under a grand. And don't gimme that export/import laws bullshit; Sig and Steyr found workarounds no problem.
a crummy haiku
Heckler looks for you
a customer you are not
so disappointed
Bwahahah
Obligatory "fuck HK"
JohnnyEgo
04-30-2015, 17:30
So in fairness, I am an HK fan, and own an original USP Match, Expert, and P7M8.
At Shot Show 2010 or 2011, I got thrown out of the HK civilian booth, for Heckling.
Apparently, they failed to appreciate my observation on the 'new' USC being essentially the same as the old USC that never moved from our store shelves, only black, particularly on media day.
The Germans have no sense of irony.
Great-Kazoo
04-30-2015, 17:34
The Germans have no sense of irony.
Or history
Uberjager
04-30-2015, 18:32
>bloomberg.com
Honey Badger282.8
04-30-2015, 18:50
For those of us not in the know, why all the HK hate?
I would take a rifle or two if the price was super great. You couldn't give me one of their clunky looking handguns - it would be like taking a fat chick to prom.
Great-Kazoo
04-30-2015, 18:56
I would take a rifle or two if the price was super great. You couldn't give me one of their clunky looking handguns - it would be like taking a fat chick to prom.
Light switches. They can be turned off, just sayin
KestrelBike
04-30-2015, 19:34
For those of us not in the know, why all the HK hate?
I'm plagiarizing a post I made elsewhere last year (and I was right about the Bundeswehr smackdown!):
Whoever handled HK USA was a complete idiot, and incapable of running a modern business. Rather, they were like that wealthy trust-fund kid born in the 1950's that married rich and had all his own private Class III toys in his bonus room, and damn every other gun owner and furthering gun rights. Their marketing sucked, their long guns were slaps in the face, and their appeal to the current generation of gun owners (ie the people splurging their hard-earned cash on the gun market today) is/was abysmal.
Here's everything stupid that HK did:
HK SL8 rifle: Let's take the G36 that everyone wants and mangle the F out of it, *purposefully* F with the receiver to ensure that stocks, magazines, etc are incompatible with it, oh and then pull it from the market and replace it with.... nothing* Not only do this once (SL8-1 the grey version) but twice (SL8-6 the black version).
*HK MR556: Put a piston-AR on the market for $3,500, but first produce only a trickle so US buyers can deal with low-supply/high-demand shenanigans. After all, you're just a small mom & pop company able to produce at a low ra... oh wait you're Germany's largest arms manufacturer? Yeah no f'ing excuse.
HK USC: more BS with the stock/receiver that was unnecessary. There's a difference between shipping the weapon with a compliant stock and leaving it up to the US civilian buyer to buy a legal stock at a later time, and making it so the receiver will never accept said stocks in the future unless they're cut up or some ridiculous 2" block is added to allow for a folding mechanism. Ditto the second chance (between the original Grey USC's and the later Black versions) squandered. I also understand that this thing was created during the 1994 ban, so I can see the 10rd mags. Thanks for never updating those after 2004. Great product strategy, guys.
This isn't an HK Because.Y.S.A.W.H.Y. rant, this is just saying that HK pretty much did everything they could to s*** on US buyers repeatedly for no reason other than pompous country-club mentality (IMO). They're like Judge Smails from Caddyshack. They're like that fat guy in austria living on his little farm in Band of Brothers that was suspected of being a commandant, that Liebgott and Webster were sent to investigate. Hell, and I even own an HK USP .45 (my first pistol, a bday present to myself when I turned 21).
No excuses because they're Germany and doing stuff is hard. Steyr (austrian, I know), and Sig Sauer both got functional rifles out on the market, and they're much smaller companies than HK. This is my shocked face that the civilian G36 is reportedly cancelled, because I don't trust a damn thing coming from those HK jackwads. I wish the Bundeswehr would tell them to go pound sand.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/02/hk-hate-you-import-export-laws-vs-people/
One thing that never fails to amaze me on this blog is that whenever one of our writers (myself included) or a staff member either posts a review or product announcement from Heckler and Koch, said article generates 60 plus comments in a day and of course the inevitable wiseguy chiming in with “because you suck, and we hate you”. The fact is that nothing could be further from the truth, in fact the HK/American consumer relationship is like a long distance affair between two people that is being supervised by two sets of parents, represented here by the German and American governments (albeit you can substitute the American government with most gun friendly nations). - See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/02/hk-hate-you-import-export-laws-vs-people/#sthash.xFSl7rfP.dpuf
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2009/10/05/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department:
In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.
http://www.guns.com/2013/07/23/heckler-koch-deeply-in-debt-not-worried-major-military-contract-inbound/
Heckler & Koch has taken on a large amount of debt over the years and currently owes more in debts than they have in total assets (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article118178155/Gewehrlieferant-der-Bundeswehr-ueberschuldet.html). However, business remains as usual for the German small arms firm.
KestrelBike
04-30-2015, 20:14
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/09/02/hk-hate-you-import-export-laws-vs-people/
I remember that post, and he can say that all day long, but the facts and the marketplace don't support his position. HK USA might have wanted to do business, but papa HK over in Germany never allowed it.
Eta: I'm dumb and needed to re-read that article. HK Germany tried before, then gave up.
HK hasn't done anything interesting since the P7 series.
With the patents being expired, and HK no longer even making the P7, I sometimes find myself wondering if there's a large enough segment of American gun owners to support a small boutique company making high-quality P7, P7M8, P7M13, and P7M10 clones for about a grand.
68Charger
04-30-2015, 20:21
>bloomberg.com
I wanted to mention this, but it's kinda moot... HK and Bloomberg have similar attitudes.
For those of us not in the know, why all the HK hate?
Have you NOT read this thread? In a word, Elitism... go to Arfcom and I'm sure you'll see people wetting themselves... one of the reasons I'm here instead of arfcom.
Honey Badger282.8
04-30-2015, 21:10
I'm plagiarizing a post I made elsewhere last year (and I was right about the Bundeswehr smackdown!):
Whoever handled HK USA was a complete idiot, and incapable of running a modern business. Rather, they were like that wealthy trust-fund kid born in the 1950's that married rich and had all his own private Class III toys in his bonus room, and damn every other gun owner and furthering gun rights. Their marketing sucked, their long guns were slaps in the face, and their appeal to the current generation of gun owners (ie the people splurging their hard-earned cash on the gun market today) is/was abysmal.
Here's everything stupid that HK did:
HK SL8 rifle: Let's take the G36 that everyone wants and mangle the F out of it, *purposefully* F with the receiver to ensure that stocks, magazines, etc are incompatible with it, oh and then pull it from the market and replace it with.... nothing* Not only do this once (SL8-1 the grey version) but twice (SL8-6 the black version).
*HK MR556: Put a piston-AR on the market for $3,500, but first produce only a trickle so US buyers can deal with low-supply/high-demand shenanigans. After all, you're just a small mom & pop company able to produce at a low ra... oh wait you're Germany's largest arms manufacturer? Yeah no f'ing excuse.
HK USC: more BS with the stock/receiver that was unnecessary. There's a difference between shipping the weapon with a compliant stock and leaving it up to the US civilian buyer to buy a legal stock at a later time, and making it so the receiver will never accept said stocks in the future unless they're cut up or some ridiculous 2" block is added to allow for a folding mechanism. Ditto the second chance (between the original Grey USC's and the later Black versions) squandered. I also understand that this thing was created during the 1994 ban, so I can see the 10rd mags. Thanks for never updating those after 2004. Great product strategy, guys.
This isn't an HK Because.Y.S.A.W.H.Y. rant, this is just saying that HK pretty much did everything they could to s*** on US buyers repeatedly for no reason other than pompous country-club mentality (IMO). They're like Judge Smails from Caddyshack. They're like that fat guy in austria living on his little farm in Band of Brothers that was suspected of being a commandant, that Liebgott and Webster were sent to investigate. Hell, and I even own an HK USP .45 (my first pistol, a bday present to myself when I turned 21).
No excuses because they're Germany and doing stuff is hard. Steyr (austrian, I know), and Sig Sauer both got functional rifles out on the market, and they're much smaller companies than HK. This is my shocked face that the civilian G36 is reportedly cancelled, because I don't trust a damn thing coming from those HK jackwads. I wish the Bundeswehr would tell them to go pound sand.
Thanks for the reply. It's an interesting position that they've carved out for themselves.
Have you NOT read this thread? In a word, Elitism... go to Arfcom and I'm sure you'll see people wetting themselves... one of the reasons I'm here instead of arfcom.
Yes I read the thread, until Kestrels post though there wasn't anything descriptive enough. I will agree that arfcom sucks, unless you're willing to take a second mortgage out on your house they will spit on everything that's affordable over there.
Zundfolge
05-01-2015, 08:33
HK hasn't done anything interesting since the P7 series.
With the patents being expired, and HK no longer even making the P7, I sometimes find myself wondering if there's a large enough segment of American gun owners to support a small boutique company making high-quality P7, P7M8, P7M13, and P7M10 clones for about a grand.
The patents are expired and with modern CNC manufacturing I figure one could make a go of it (although a more realistic target MSRP would be $1200-1500)... the fact that Rohbaugh and Boberg still exist proves that boutique arms manufacturing is possible (and I'd guess that a well made P7 clone would do better than either Rohrbaugh or Boberg). Of course there is the cautionary tale of Microtech Small Arms Research.
The big problems with HK are that they don't understand that in the US market that US gun buyers want you to be a pro-gun political ally too. Also that American gun owners are not the idle rich like they are in Europe so we do shop based on price. The sad truth is that while they're fine guns the USP, P2000, P30 and VP9 are simply not worth significantly more than Glocks and trying to claim they are somehow upscale and deserve MSRPs almost twice that of Glocks is folly. You'll notice that when ATI brought out a value priced MP5 clone in .22lr that they sold a friggin boat load of them (before HK shut them down for copyright violation). Apparently HK didn't learn anything then.
i just don't like to buy guns from people who don't really want civilians to own guns. makes no sense to me. they sell them to civilians because they need the money. their price is also outlandish. don't get me wrong, they are fine guns, but they aren't significantly better than lots of other things and like others posted it isn't like they are a small shop unable to make volume for a reasonable price.
So in fairness, I am an HK fan, and own an original USP Match, Expert, and P7M8.
At Shot Show 2010 or 2011, I got thrown out of the HK civilian booth, for Heckling.
Apparently, they failed to appreciate my observation on the 'new' USC being essentially the same as the old USC that never moved from our store shelves, only black, particularly on media day.
The Germans have no sense of irony.
And you're still a fan?
You got that going for ya. ;)
For those of us not in the know, why all the HK hate?
Take a look at their entire catalog of offerings.
How much of it can you actually get your hands on? Some fat ass low cap usp's...oh wait...theres the VP9, P30, P2k, and HK45 in enough variants to make you forget about the PDW's and long guns you could own.
They do offer some half-assed versions of their PDW's/Long guns, if you're interested.
The patents are expired and with modern CNC manufacturing I figure one could make a go of it (although a more realistic target MSRP would be $1200-1500)... the fact that Rohbaugh and Boberg still exist proves that boutique arms manufacturing is possible (and I'd guess that a well made P7 clone would do better than either Rohrbaugh or Boberg). Of course there is the cautionary tale of Microtech Small Arms Research.
The big problems with HK are that they don't understand that in the US market that US gun buyers want you to be a pro-gun political ally too. Also that American gun owners are not the idle rich like they are in Europe so we do shop based on price. The sad truth is that while they're fine guns the USP, P2000, P30 and VP9 are simply not worth significantly more than Glocks and trying to claim they are somehow upscale and deserve MSRPs almost twice that of Glocks is folly. You'll notice that when ATI brought out a value priced MP5 clone in .22lr that they sold a friggin boat load of them (before HK shut them down for copyright violation). Apparently HK didn't learn anything then.
The problem is I have no way to do a cost analysis to figure out what that price point would have to be.
You can get an MP5, just saying. The hoops and money you have to jump through may not be worth it to you, but ya can. The NFA laws are our own doing. That all being said, HK could try to work it like Sig does, which is why they don't get the same hate level. The Sig Brace was them testing the lines.... And it did not hurt their approval rating either.
Take a look at their entire catalog of offerings.
How much of it can you actually get your hands on? Some fat ass low cap usp's...oh wait...theres the VP9, P30, P2k, and HK45 in enough variants to make you forget about the PDW's and long guns you could own.
They do offer some half-assed versions of their PDW's/Long guns, if you're interested.
HoneyBadger
05-01-2015, 11:59
You guys are funny. I wasn't expecting all the hate, but it seems warranted. I always thought they were kind of elitist, but I didn't know about their politics and all the other issues. Thanks for enlightening me.
Either way, I hope they introduce some interesting new product lines into the US market because more market choices is always a good thing and the innovation required for them to be successful could bring some cool ideas or technology into the market.
I won't buy another HK ever.. I mean why would we civilians need anything like an mp7...
Spot on. They get no love here
Hk threads always amuse me. Hell, they're almost as good as "climate change" threads!
HoneyBadger
05-01-2015, 15:38
Spyder, you're just an elitist jerk... ;)
KestrelBike
05-01-2015, 18:13
Take a look at their entire catalog of offerings.
How much of it can you actually get your hands on? Some fat ass low cap usp's...oh wait...theres the VP9, P30, P2k, and HK45 in enough variants to make you forget about the PDW's and long guns you could own.
They do offer some half-assed versions of their PDW's/Long guns, if you're interested.
They don't anymore really. Both SLR and USC lines were discontinued, and the HK 293 (civvie G36) is predictably vaporware. I haven't seen a 416 at a LGS for quite some time.
Spyder, you're just an elitist jerk... ;)
Lol I was waiting for him to chime in.
Spyder, you're just an elitist jerk... ;)
Ha! lol
I've met, and talked with peeps at Hk quite a bit... There is a big difference between the thoughts of the German side, and the American side, a big difference... Sadly enough though, who's to say that they can't say "We are going to build what they want to build, and if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it." Ya, people are going to get their panties in a bunch over it, but as a business owner, are you going to give in to what they want, or stick to how you do things? Now rather that is a smart move or not, is another story... Also, the American side IS trying to listen, and have been for years.
I also shoot Hk's and choose to run them because they are the most indestructible over the shelf gun there is hands down. That's not just my "fun filled opinion", but a fact that I, and many other's have been keeping track of that I am in contact with in the same business... I've fixed too damn many Glock's, Beretta's, XD's, M&P's, and the least by FNH to care for them. Yes, I've worked on an Hk, but it was a P7 that was too dirty to move.... I've also seen a Glock slide break in two, and saw pictures of the aftermath from another that did the same thing.
Some would say I'm an elitist.... I just say I will shoot what I think is best with what I know. ;)
Also, the ownership has changed hands with Hk too many times, and a lot of the "attitude" from Germany comes from this. They see the government contracts as a way out of their debt, and have put blinders on about it, and charged forward. The VP9 was the first bit of thinking that didn't come from this train of thought. It was made with the "people" in mind, and that's why it comes in at the $530 price point. Hell, the who thing with the G36 is a shining example of the way the German side thinks... why fix the damn things that they know have slight accuracy issues due to it's trunnion design when heated up when they can just try to sway the German Government into a new contract with the 416, or G38 or whatever in the hell they're going to re-designate it.
I don't agree with Germany. I do however agree with the American side, and no matter how much someone hates something they heard about them through other people, their guns are worth every penny.
<MADDOG>
05-01-2015, 22:14
I don't see any comments about the G36 slight problem with heat after 150 rounds of continuous semi auto fire...
Hell, the who thing with the G36 is a shining example of the way the German side thinks... why fix the damn things that they know have slight accuracy issues due to it's trunnion design when heated up when they can just try to sway the German Government into a new contract with the 416, or G38 or whatever in the hell they're going to re-designate it.
I don't see any comments about the G36 slight problem with heat after 150 rounds of continuous semi auto fire...
Look one post above yours. :)
Great-Kazoo
05-01-2015, 22:48
Look one post above yours. :)
Your sarcasm meter is off, again.
Not a fixed income analyst nor saw a full financial record of H&K. Opinion is just based on this report.
I would be surprised if any major defense company will buy H&k. My guess is if H&K doesn't have any cash infusion by investment company or have more creditors, they will have a major garage sale at this rate.
Even if I had $5b, I don't think I have a skill set , ego , or operation skills to turn this company around. Truly sad that H&K didn't follow mkt strategy like other companies did.
The decline in sales has squeezed company finances, sending its bonds tumbling and pushing it into borrowing at 10 percent to make interest payments of 9.5 percent on other debt.
The German government restricted weapons exports to areas at risk of conflict in 2013, including Saudi Arabia. That cost H&K as much as 50 million euros in the first nine months of 2014, with total revenue shrinking to 102 million euros down from 153 million euros in the same period of 2013, according to its private financial accounts. Last month, the Defense Ministry said it had completed a damning report on its G36 assault rifles.
H&K’s 295 million euros of bonds due in May 2018 fell to a three-year low of 63.6 cents, to yield 27.9 percent, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.The notes rebounded to 74 cents, to yield 21.6 percent, on Thursday after German media reported that the army may alter its inventory of 180,000 H&K rifles rather than junk them. That gives the company the chance to win the contract to modify the weapons. The incident, however, underscored the volatility of a company with about 30 million euros of both earnings and annual interest payments.
The company took out a credit line in November with Bybrook Capital, a London-based hedge fund founded in 2013 by Robert J. Dafforn, to meet its 14 million-euro interest payment. Bybrook charges 10 percent for the 30 million-euro facility when it’s drawn and 4 percent when it’s not. Heeschen said the next bond coupon payment on May 15 will be a much smoother affair as its U.S. expansion begins to pay off.
hurley842002
05-01-2015, 23:12
Sadly enough though, who's to say that they can't say "screw you, we're doing things the way we want?" I mean seriously... if any of you ran a business and someone said "you have to change the way you do things because it's not the way I like it", you would tell them to pound sand too. Hell.... I already have. Ya, people are going to get their panties in a bunch over it, but are you going to give in to what they want, or stick to how you do things?
I'm not a business man, never have been, probably never will be, but if that "someone" you are telling to pound sand, happens to be your biggest potential client, you are doing something wrong. I hope HK telling us civilians to pound sand, bites them in the ass. I could care less about HK, as I've never cracked the slide on a Glock, or had issues with M&P's...
Ok I'll put my head out there. I guess I'm in the minority, I really like hk , every hk I've had I loved and I still carry one everyday. They may hate you but I still love them (maybe that's how my girlfriend feels hmmmm). I don't have a g36 or an mp5 though ;-)
<MADDOG>
05-02-2015, 09:56
Look one post above yours. :)
Sorry Irving, you are correct!
Never been impressed with any true HK design minus the P7, as all its successful rifles were based on the CETME platform.
BAE spun them off in 2002 for a reason...
I'm not a business man, never have been, probably never will be, but if that "someone" you are telling to pound sand, happens to be your biggest potential client, you are doing something wrong. I hope HK telling us civilians to pound sand, bites them in the ass. I could care less about HK, as I've never cracked the slide on a Glock, or had issues with M&P's...
Also, you are seeing things from the American point of view... that IS how they see it. It's the German side that is ruling everything though. They are all about government contracts, always have been. Honestly, the best thing is if the American side split... that would be nice.
It was a figure of speech... No one from Hk has actually ever told anyone off. They have however said that they are going to build what they want to build, and if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. There are lots of fake things floating around on other forums that are bullshit, and sadly, everyone believe it without batting an eye. No one on this forum has ever had Hk tell them to pound sand, guaranteed. People just don't like the fact that Hk doesn't care about your opinion, that is however different from saying they have said "screw you" or whatever to the public. I did use the figure of speech, but like I said, it was a figure of speech. I should change that so no one else takes it wrong...... I did do a bad job there....
hurley842002
05-02-2015, 13:59
It was a figure of speech... No one from Hk has actually ever told anyone off. They have however said that they are going to build what they want to build, and if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it. There are lots of fake things floating around on other forums that are bullshit, and sadly, everyone believe it without batting an eye. No one on this forum has ever had Hk tell them to pound sand, guaranteed. People just don't like the fact that Hk doesn't care about your opinion, that is however different from saying they have said "screw you" or whatever to the public. I did use the figure of speech, but like I said, it was a figure of speech. I should change that so no one else takes it wrong...... I did do a bad job there....
I didn't take it wrong, and realize it was a figure of speech, but HK basically HAS told the civilian market to pound sand. You are also correct in the fact that it's their business, their right to sell or not sell, whatever to whom ever they like. I just hope those civilian "whom evers" remember the the way HK chose to run their business. That's all I was getting at, like I said, I've never really had a desire to own any HK products, tho I'm sure they are excellent firearms.
I didn't take it wrong, and realize it was a figure of speech, but HK basically HAS told the civilian market to pound sand. You are also correct in the fact that it's their business, their right to sell or not sell, whatever to whom ever they like. I just hope those civilian "whom evers" remember the the way HK chose to run their business. That's all I was getting at, like I said, I've never really had a desire to own any HK products, tho I'm sure they are excellent firearms.
They haven't though... people just took it that way (and yes, perception is everything). I've read all of the sources of these complaints, and not a one has any merit. A few were just blatantly made up...
Question, what exactly do you think is a question to ask them that they would tell someone to "go pound sand"? Can you list a few? (I'm not being a smart ass or anything, just curious)
I did see one where someone asked about Pmags... and why don't they make their MR556's work with them...
(I bring up the Pmags because I just got done fitting 50 to fit an MR556)
I believe their response was that it didn't need to, it wasn't designed around any specific magazine in mind other than their own, and that their mag and other mags work fine with it, and that they didn't need to change the 416 to fit one kind of magazine.
Of course the guy who got that reply went ape shit about how Hk didn't care about his problem... That's the stupid kind of thing that gets people going. Then it snow balls, and shit gets stupid.
Could they go in and change the cut program so the magazine housing sits higher up and gets out of the way for a Pmag? Sure, they could... they could go in, redesign the magazine housing, and kick it out to make people happy, but they don't have to, and people shouldn't be such giant bitches over not getting what they want. If someone is going to go out and spend that kind of cash on a rifle, and then bitch about their mags because they don't want to buy what fits...... that kind of person is an idiot. That's like going out and buying a big giant diesel like an excursion, and then bitching about the fuel economy. But... it's been shown again and again that people do it all the time, and then everyone else believe the crap, without finding out what actually happened.
hurley842002
05-02-2015, 14:27
They haven't though... people just took it that way (and yes, perception is everything). I've read all of the sources of these complaints, and not a one has any merit. A few were just blatantly made up...
Question, what exactly do you think is a question to ask them that they would tell someone to "go pound sand"? Can you list a few? (I'm not being a smart ass or anything, just curious)
And again, I'm not talking about the literal sense of "pound sand" like you seem to think I am. Please see post #22, for a brief overview as to how I believe HK told folks to pound sand. They said pound sand through their business practices, not through actual customer service related incidents.
Again, just asking, but what business practices other than something like the example I gave? I'm just trying to clearly see where you are coming from, I'm interested.
EDIT:
Post 22? Nothing in there says "screw the Americans", it says "hello, we're Germany, and we're not that brilliant at sales strategy, or anything involving using our time wisely". Again, they are going to do what they are going to do, and why does it have to make anyone happy? I don't get the mentality behind getting all bent out of shape and taking things like that personally. Ya, they did stupid things trying to figure out their market niche and failed... and? They are going after Gov. contracts, with the civilian market as a back burner process. I believe it is stupid also, hands down, but I don't rationally see how them screwing up is a personal hit? Hell, I don't see how them saying "buy our stuff as it is, or don't" is a personal hit..... When their current business plan fails (and I do personally think it will make them hit rock bottom), the next owner of Hk will hopefully do something smarter with the company and point it in a better direction.
Again, just asking, but what business practices other than something like the example I gave? I'm just trying to clearly see where you are coming from, I'm interested.
I like HK products. Especially the old school stuff. One way they were telling people to pound sand was to go after the HK94 clone makers and threatening to sue them in order to force them to stop building firearms people want. HK doesn't want to sell HK94's to the American public and doesn't want anyone else to either.
I like HK products. Especially the old school stuff. One way they were telling people to pound sand was to go after the HK94 clone makers and threatening to sue them in order to force them to stop building firearms people want. HK doesn't want to sell HK94's to the American public and doesn't want anyone else to either.
Um no... That's Hk saying, "you don't have the rights to make our gun, so stop". That is a completely legitimate business thing, and was in no way pointed at anyone but the makers trying to use Hk's design without licensing. ANY company that you try to copy will do that if they have valid IP on a product that you try to rip off, ANY COMPANY. Vector could have asked for licensing rights, but they didn't, they tried the asking for forgiveness thing first, and it bit them along with GSG, and a couple of other companies. There are those that asked to produce under licensing, and low and behold, Hk let them.
I don't have any idea of when they're roller lock patents are up, but as soon as they are... there will be a clone a plenty. Actually, they should be up already.....
Zombie Steve
05-02-2015, 17:43
They still have them silly fluted chambers? I kinda like my .308 brass .308 shaped... and not thrown into the next berm.
[Coffee]
The fact they won't find a way to get them to the American public market and at the same time won't let anyone else do it. Obviously there is a market for the product. But they won't service it. My opinion only. You may not agree. But that course of action does not endear HK as a company to me.
Edited to say that they will let licensed HK factories produce them. Turkey has been trickling some in lately. I doubt small manufacturers could swing a deal with HK.
The lawsuits had nothing to do with roller lock patents.
Wouldn't Colt have the same justification to sue ar-15 clone makers. Honest question.
Didn't know about the HK drama, just never was attracted to them. I knew an FFL that loved 'em. I played around with them but they just didn't "fit". Then I found out the prices.
Never been a Beretta fan either. Don't see much love for them here either.
Personally the price of guns have not really been a factor to me. At least up to the $3000 range. If I want it I will find a way eventually to own it. You can usually sell it for close to the same or even more than original price. I'm going to put more money thru it in the form of ammo anyways.
And frankly the way the manufacturer feels about the customer is not a factor to me. There are a lot of egos and assholes in the firearms industry. Lots of genuine good people too. I don't really care who profits from my purchase. I buy it for me. Not to vote for my favorite person.
The lawsuits had nothing to do with roller lock patents.
I meant the type of gun... their roller locks... not the actual locking system.
Wouldn't Colt have the same justification to sue ar-15 clone makers. Honest question.
No, the AR patents ran out a long time ago. This is why I was saying that I don't know if Hk's patents were still valid somehow at the time. This is why everyone can use Remington's designs for the 870, and 700, two of the other most notable. The claims on them are history.
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