Thoughts on the Pres banning Military Equip For Cops

[thvigil11]

No Cop Bashing Here!

Quoted from the article.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150518/us--obama-c4a877cf29.html




"


In previewing the president's trip, the White House said that effective immediately, the federal government will no longer fund or provide armored vehicles that run on a tracked system instead of wheels, weaponized aircraft
or vehicles, firearms or ammunition of .50-caliber or higher, grenade launchers, bayonets or camouflage uniforms. The federal government also is exploring ways to recall prohibited equipment already distributed. In addition, a longer list of equipment the federal government provides will come under tighter control, including wheeled armored vehicles like Humvees, manned aircraft, drones, specialized firearms, explosives, battering rams and riot batons, helmets and shields. Starting in October, police will have to get approval from their city council, mayor or some other local governing body to obtain it, provide a persuasive explanation of why it is needed and have more training and data collection on the use of the equipment."

So no more "tracked" vehicles (MRAPS are still cool though, I know of a few M113's but most everyone in this state run Bearcats)

No more weaponized aircraft (damn, was looking forward to that used A-10. Did weaponized aircraft even happen? I remember the weaponized Roomba!)

No more .50 cal or higher firearms or ammo, (what, no Carl Gustavs! I'm sure Ronnie Barret will sell his stuff as long as you use other funds)

Grenade launchers (guys, we'll have to buy our own Milkors and MK19's)

Bayonets (Really, just really. Why the frack is it always about bayonets. We need to ban bayonet mounts for assault weapons because bayonettings are such a problem. This from the same ass who said "You mention the Navy, for example, and that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets," )

Camouflage uniforms (OD green and black are still cool, or cops do what they already do, Buy their camo from places like Neve's)

"Starting in October, police will have to get approval from their city council, mayor or some other local governing body to obtain it, provide a persuasive explanation of why it is needed and have more training and data collection on the use of the equipment." (what dept does not already have some sort of oversight on their spending, every government I know of has someone in charge of approving, reviewing and tracking all PO's)

Seems to me like this is all more lip service than anything else. While I agree that the above items are not needed for police, I don't believe they are what is currently the problem. I see the problem as more of a tactics and training issue. Albuquerque just had another issue with a state cop kicking a dead guy in the ass after they hit his corpse with 3 bean bag rounds. "yeah, he's dead dude. It's pretty hard to play possum after three less than lethals" http://krqe.com/2015/05/18/video-raises-questions-about-how-apd-and-state-police-treated-suspects-dead-body/

Again, I don't want to bash our police. We have trained them to a standard and now have come to criticize them for what they have learned. Besides the fact that the media is ignoring who it was that began the vast training and arming of the swat teams back in the 90's. Remember how the politicians cried of how our police were outgunned, criminals were running rampant with their cop killer bullets, porcelain glocks, shoulder things that goes up, and drive by bayonettings. Once again shitty legislation has led to shitty outcomes, so let's just pass some equally shitty legislation, without getting rid of the previous crap and I'm sure there will be no unintended outcomes this time.

Sorry for the rant. Just tired today I guess. My LE bros and sisters out there. Keep your heads on a swivel and thanks for what you do.

BAN POLITICIANS (fer the childrens)

[TFOGGER]

Straight up political posturing. This is a very transparent attempt by the administration to attempt to garner support by appearing to side with the "oppressed". I could have seen this coming, based on the tenor of the news over the last year.

[Monky]

While I have yet to see a need for a civilian agency to have an MRAP, unless those in charge are playing as much Grand Theft Auto as the rest of the population.. RPGs don't seem to be prevalent in the US. I get it, in a way.. the equipment is there, so why not get it, even though we will never actually have 'need' for it.. 'what if'.. we all plan for the what if.

As a show of force, they're impressive. Could I, were I so inclined to be a criminal, put a hole in one. Yep sure could.. I don't know of anyone who has that capability that would though. Sure there are nutjobs out there with a .50, just like me.. but I don't recall ever seeing anything done with one... I mean except in movies. Movies love the .50..

[MarkCO]

I agree with TFOGGER. Nothing Obummer does is in the best interest of America, except as a byproduct at best. At the same time, many conservatives have felt uneasy about the militarization of the civilian police forces. The USA is unique (Constitutionally) in that our military is not to act against its own citizens. That line has been blurred by the types of conflicts and decisions from the White House. Overall, I see it as a good thing, even if for the wrong reason.

[davsel]

They included "helmets and shields." Why would you ban defensive equipment?

Didn't the arming up start after the LA bank robbery? Understandably to an extent.

As TFOGGER stated, seems the pres is just doing some community organizing and supporting. "If I had a community..."

[Hound]

I think the OP could not have said it better. The pendulum has swung from cops running into a gun store to deal with the armored LA nuts to training (as a reaction to 911) that swung the pendulum to the other side. The training and procedures need to be looked at again. The below Also struck me as odd. Is this not the case with most PD's?


what dept does not already have some sort of oversight on their spending, every government I know of has someone in charge of approving, reviewing and tracking all PO's

[68Charger]

I'll go ahead and say this is NOT a BAN... it is a pulling of Federal funding for these items. The departments can still get this stuff, just not Federally funded.

Any time Gov't wants to spend less, I'm good with that.

ETA: I am also 100% sure that TFOGGER is right, and the admin is NOT doing this to spend less (they have demonstrated exactly the opposite most of the time), this is pure posturing.

[thvigil11]

I'll go ahead and say this is NOT a BAN... it is a pulling of Federal funding for these items. The departments can still get this stuff, just not Federally funded.

Any time Gov't wants to spend less, I'm good with that.


Exactly... It's all smoke and mirrors without any real attempt at addressing the problem. In fact its even less than effective since the restrictions are placed on items that aren't even an issue. (Bayonets and grenade launchers)

[ray1970]

It's a different world we live in these days. Often local law enforcement are the first responders to terrorist type acts. I say let them have the tools to deal with those types of extreme situations. As long as they have strict protocols as to when and how that equipment is deployed I don't have an issue with them owning it. By them not being able to get that stuff at a deep discount through surplus supplies it just means higher taxes for me in the long run when they have to start buying it through other sources.

[sellersm]

This seems to play right along with what I'd heard a few years ago: the Feds were handing out the goodies, like candy, and then they were going to pull the plug on the funding. This leaves the locals with a big $$$ dilemma on their hands... Can they afford the maintenance? Can they afford further procurement of such items? Can they afford the training with said equipment? Ammo? Etc...

As the OP said, it's all a game, nothing more.

From what I've heard, also, the timing of this announcement is interesting as the local LE community will be the "roadblocks/traffic enforcement" (no one in/no one out) for the upcoming Jade Helm exercises. But who knows what will really happen?

[Circuits]

No Cop Bashing Here!
No more .50 cal or higher firearms or ammo, (what, no Carl Gustavs! I'm sure Ronnie Barret will sell his stuff as long as you use other funds)

.416 Barrett would still be ok, then... (if the .mil used that caliber)

[Zundfolge]

He's doing what I think is the right thing but I suspect for the wrong reasons.

The only reasons he would want local police departments "demilitarized" is because he wants his fellow traveler street thugs to have a leg up on them for if/when they start racialist violence in the cities (egged on by his fellow traveler "community organizers") and he wants the federal police/military to have a leg up on them for if/when he institutes martial law.

That said anything that gets leftists on the same side as Radley Balko can't be all bad.

[Bailey Guns]

I'm generally all for keeping the police as civilian law enforcement and generally don't like the "militarization" of civilian police departments. I, too, agree that this is maybe a step in the right direction but for wrong reasons...because I don't trust Obama to do anything for the "right" reasons. He's got an agenda.

[SideShow Bob]

The local police could have used a few LAWs or RPGs in Granby several years ago when that nut case up armored a D-9 and leveled part of Granby.
Or in CA. When another nut case stole a tank and took it for a joy ride.

[Mtn.man]

Oh Bob, welders get bored and burnt out staring at the arc all day. So you come up with an idea, what if i take this D9 and put some plate on it, yeah that's it Slow And Furious'ly around town. He created jobs...

[blacklabel]

I'm generally all for keeping the police as civilian law enforcement and generally don't like the "militarization" of civilian police departments. I, too, agree that this is maybe a step in the right direction but for wrong reasons...because I don't trust Obama to do anything for the "right" reasons. He's got an agenda.

I agree. This wasn't meant to do anything but sway public opinion.

[Ronin13]

90% of equipment obtained via these programs (1033 program) are defensive/protective in nature. Obama doesn't understand this. Armored vehicles obtained via federal programs cut down on costs incurred by the local agency (a used MRAP obtained through a government transfer program is a hell of a lot cheaper for the SO or PD than a brand new BearCat purchased through budgetary allotment). I'm not saying agencies need an MRAP, but they are armored and do protect SWAT during an approach to a barricaded armed subject. However, MRAPs do not drive like anything else on the road, so training is vital prior to deployment, otherwise injury and death could occur (not to mention outrageous property damage). But, according to the EO, MRAPs are not included in the list of vehicles that are now disallowed.

On the grenade launcher thing, not a single LE agency uses HE rounds (such as the M381 or M387 HE/Fragmentation 40mm rounds). 1033 obtained GLs, like M203s, are great tools for deploying CS canisters and less-lethal BIP (Blunt Impact Projectile) rounds. Obama is a moron and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions on things he knows nothing about without consulting no less than 3 experts in those fields.
Then again...
58411

[osok-308]

On the grenade launcher thing, not a single LE agency uses HE rounds (such as the M381 or M387 HE/Fragmentation 40mm rounds). 1033 obtained GLs, like M203s, are great tools for deploying CS canisters and less-lethal BIP (Blunt Impact Projectile) rounds.

This.


No Cop Bashing Here!

Quoted from the article.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150518/us--obama-c4a877cf29.html




"



In previewing the president's trip, the White House said that effective immediately, the federal government will no longer fund or provide armored vehicles that run on a tracked system instead of wheels, weaponized aircraft
or vehicles, firearms or ammunition of .50-caliber or higher, grenade launchers, bayonets or camouflage uniforms. The federal government also is exploring ways to recall prohibited equipment already distributed. In addition, a longer list of equipment the federal government provides will come under tighter control, including wheeled armored vehicles like Humvees, manned aircraft, drones, specialized firearms, explosives, battering rams and riot batons, helmets and shields. Starting in October, police will have to get approval from their city council, mayor or some other local governing body to obtain it, provide a persuasive explanation of why it is needed and have more training and data collection on the use of the equipment."

Camouflage uniforms

"Starting in October, police will have to get approval from their city council, mayor or some other local governing body to obtain it, provide a persuasive explanation of why it is needed and have more training and data collection on the use of the equipment." )

So I'm kind of confused about the feds having a problem with riot batons and camouflage uniforms on top of the rest of the list. Is camouflage somehow more deadly? I have never heard arguments against police having riot batons either.

And I don't know about you guys, but no one is more qualified to tell me what firearms I need to get the job done better than my local city council or my mayor! They are well-versed in firearms as well as tactically proficient on so many levels. [Sarcasm2]


ETA: Sorry to OP for cutting out so much of your post, just trying to highlight specific areas of the post.

[Ronin13]

And I don't know about you guys, but no one is more qualified to tell me what firearms I need to get the job done better than my local city council or my mayor! They are well-versed in firearms as well as tactically proficient on so many levels. [Sarcasm2]
This is the reason I'm glad my Sheriff reserves the decision to make those kinds of calls- which is pretty much any reputable manufacturer (Sig, Glock, S&W, Springfield, etc) in 9, .40 or .45.

[davsel]

If a little is good, more must be better.
Why not take all weapons away from the police.
Put them on an equal footing with the community.
A few courses in communication and conflict resolution should do the trick.
Teach cops to talk criminals into giving up and voluntarily taking a ride to jail.
After-all, so-called criminals are just oppressed, mis-understood citizens who are just trying to get by.

[thvigil11]

It's not a matter of the mayor or city council deciding which company or particular firearm to buy. Its a matter of oversight. Outside approval of what the cash is spent on. Like I said, I don't know of any local gov agencies that does not have some kinda oversight already. My point is, the controls are already there. The SO has to be able to justify the purchase to said council around here. What sidearm to carry is easy to justify. It's harder for a rural county SO to justify purchasing an AH64 for patrolling the highway. Or more realistically. Its harder for an SO to justify buying all the deputies GT350R Mustangs, when a standard chevy or ford prowler will do the job.

While I agree, armor vehicles, less than lethal and even SWAT are valuable to LE's. They are greatly overused. Again it goes to tactics and training. Now SWAT is called at the slightest provocation. Look at the homeless guy APD shot last year down here in NM. It was a call about a homeless guy illegally camping up on the mountain. Why was this an immediate SWAT call. Could it have not been handled by a few officers in regular duty gear. Seeing SWAT immediately elevates the situation on all sides. I'm a law abiding person, but I will have very different reactions if an officer or two shows up on my door vs, a tactical team dressed up in more shit than I used to carry outside the wire in Indian Country. Again there is an issue with tactics and training, not equipment. I think my original point stands. Once again a politician is blaming the wrong thing (equipment), doing that incorrectly/ ineffectively as it is (withdrawing equipment that isn't even a part of the issue), and distacting focus from the real problem (mentality).

The lie that criminals were outgunning police has been around even before they passed NFA in the 30's. If you look at the statistics, the violence against LE is basically the same as its always been. According to the Dec 2, 2014 release from the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/sandiego/press-releases/2014/fbi-releases-2013-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted)

"Felonious Deaths
The 27 felonious deaths occurred in 16 states. The number of officers killed as a result of criminal acts in 2013 decreased by 22 when compared with the 49 officers who were feloniously killed in 2012. The five- and 10-year comparisons show a decrease of 21 felonious deaths compared with the 2009 figure (48 officers) and a decrease of 30 deaths compared with 2004 data (57 officers).

Officer Profiles: The average age of the officers who were feloniously killed was 39 years. The victim officers had served in law enforcement for an average of 13 years at the time of the fatal incidents. Twenty-five of the officers were male, and two were female. Twenty-five of the officers were white, and two were black.

Circumstances: Of the 27 officers feloniously killed, six were killed in arrest situations, five were investigating suspicious persons or circumstances, five were ambushed, four were involved in tactical situations, four were answering disturbance calls, and two were conducting traffic pursuits/stops. One was conducting an investigative activity, such as surveillance, a search, or an interview.

Weapons: Offenders used firearms to kill 26 of the 27 victim officers. Of these 26 officers, 18 were slain with handguns, five with rifles, and three with shotguns. One officer was killed with a vehicle used as a weapon.

Regions: Fifteen of the felonious deaths occurred in the South, six in the West, four in the Midwest, and two in the Northeast.

Suspects: Law enforcement agencies identified 28 alleged assailants in connection with the felonious line-of-duty deaths. Twenty of the assailants had prior criminal arrests, and six of the offenders were under judicial supervision at the time of the felonious incidents."

That's 70% killed by handguns. If one looks back through the last 100 years, that statistic stays basically the same. Regardless of what the media and hollywood keeps showing, the majority of criminals in this country are not armed to the teeth with every kind of exotic weapon system that they'd like us to believe. Not every criminal mastermind packs 2 gold plated Desert Eagles. Many might have an AK sitting in the closet, but the majority of the time, our officers are facing some model of glock at best. Although HiPoint and every other brand of cast POS tend to rule the day. I'd even question what the breakdown is on the rifles used is.

Yes every once in a while you get some idiot with a beta mag AR or uparmored dozer. Again this is not new, look up the Bath school bombing. Sadly, crazy and Supercrazy (spree killing) has been around for a long time. Hell, look up the Chenpeng School Stabbing. Date look familiar? Ban anything you want, arm yourself to the teeth, you still can't stop crazy. Crazy finds a way!

This is one of the problems for LE training. Tactical training is fun, no doubt. But it has become the main focus, while training for the average call has fallen off. It's easy to get participation and funding for the exciting "Kick In The Door and Blast The Shit Out Of Some Stuff" training scenarios. It's much harder to get folks to show up to an all day, "Peaceful Resolutions To Situations With Mentally Unstable Nutbags" class. When an officer is trained to think that every stop can turn into a giant gunfight (86 Miami FBI style) then that officer is going to be in a more aggressive mindset from the start. LE needs to be prepared for the rare crazy shit, but the focus needs to be on the average callout.

[davsel]

http://canadafreepress.com/images/uploads/dag051915-1.jpg

[roberth]

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disclaimer - this quote is my own creation


If we get rid of the police then I can implement my "equipped as well as the military" civilian police force

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/10/remember_obamas_civilian_national_security_force.h tml

Remember the Soviet Union? Obama is looking for something more along the lines of the KGB's Second Chief Directorate or the East German Stasi. Obama can't help it, these evil governments are his role models. This time it'll be different...promise. ;)

http://fas.org/irp/world/russia/kgb/second.htm

This is where your associations with liberals (communists) will get you in hot water.