Public Ranges, why so popular?

[SA Friday]

Serious question. Why are public ranges so popular? Pawnee, Rampart, etc. I've shot at public ranges a long time ago and found the experiences less than enjoyable. I shoot a lot and so the cost of a range membership for me is worth every penny, but even for the casual shooter who shoots only 3 or 4 times a year, most memberships are cheaper than the total cost of ammy for those 4 trips. Is the cost difference worth the public range hassle? Why public range instead of range membership?

I ask because it appears the majority of posters here go the public range route and shooting club members seem to be the minority.

[Rampart Runner]

I hiked up to Rampart to shoot 3-4 times a week in the time it would take to just get out of town and head towards a private range.

I still run to Rampart and pick up trash but sadly no shooting.

I now have to find alternatives which I am not happy about.

RR

[BadShot]

Personally because I don't do static line shooting, e.g we're running drills and a lot of movement type tasks and there are numerous times when I have 1-3 new shooters with me at any given time, I find it easier to hit public lands. If I'm teaching, I want to be the range nazi and not someone else, my students, my responsibility. Public lands and lesser known spots make it easier for that all to happen.

I rarely if ever use the "designated" shooting spots because of the denizens of those places. Most of those folks are the reason why I bring 2-3 first aid/GSW kits with me anyway.

[MrPrena]

Personally because I don't do static line shooting, e.g we're running drills and a lot of movement type tasks and there are numerous times when I have 1-3 new shooters with me at any given time, I find it easier to hit public lands. If I'm teaching, I want to be the range nazi and not someone else, my students, my responsibility. Public lands and lesser known spots make it easier for that all to happen.

I rarely if ever use the "designated" shooting spots because of the denizens of those places. Most of those folks are the reason why I bring 2-3 first aid/GSW kits with me anyway.


+1

Drills and practice.
After I start going to public ranges, my shooting really improved.



I think there are pros and cons.
I like going to paid ranges for zeroing my firearms. I can immediately rest the firearm and start shooting. No range finder. No Spotting scopes (already provided). Less stuff to carry around.
I really like the Boulder Rifleclub's set up. I can park my car right behind where I am station to shoot. If I need anything, I can immediately grab em.

[jackmode9316]

most memberships are cheaper than the total cost of ammy for those 4 trips. Is the cost difference worth the public range hassle? Why public range instead of range membership?

Im not understanding what you are saying here. How would my ammo be any cheaper if I was visiting a membership range over a public range? Personally I go to public places because they are Free. I dont go shooting enough to justify a $200-$400 membership. ESPECIALLY when its not going to be much closer than the public places.

[Irving]

I was talking about how trashed Rampart and Left Hand Canyon are the other day and a thought occurred to me. I am totally serious.

Why don't land fills double as shooting ranges? It would take minutes to make a berm out of trash, and there is no lack of targets.

[SA Friday]

Personally because I don't do static line shooting, e.g we're running drills and a lot of movement type tasks and there are numerous times when I have 1-3 new shooters with me at any given time, I find it easier to hit public lands. If I'm teaching, I want to be the range nazi and not someone else, my students, my responsibility. Public lands and lesser known spots make it easier for that all to happen.

I rarely if ever use the "designated" shooting spots because of the denizens of those places. Most of those folks are the reason why I bring 2-3 first aid/GSW kits with me anyway.

Wow, this one has me confused. I go to member's only ranges for the exact same reason. I get the whole berm to myself, no static line shooting and no nazi RO's but me. Practicing USPSA mostly, I can tell you there is a whole lot of movement going on.

[SA Friday]

Im not understanding what you are saying here. How would my ammo be any cheaper if I was visiting a membership range over a public range? Personally I go to public places because they are Free. I dont go shooting enough to justify a $200-$400 membership. ESPECIALLY when its not going to be much closer than the public places.

The ammo isn't any cheaper, but the cost comparison is valid. I average at least one or two trips to the range a week. The cost of a membership to a range in comparison to my ammo consumption is minute.

It's about the buy-in to one's shooting. If I only went 3 or 4 times to shoot a year, ya, membership costs aren't worth it.

[rtr]

I think the answer is that the majority of shooters are unaware that there are private memberhsip ranges available, and of those who are aware of them most of them are unaware of how one can become a member.

SA Friday you are among a very small minority of shooters in terms of the amount of shooting you do and the awareness you have of the shooting facilities available.

[Bongo Boy]

By 'public' you mean unsupervised and uncontrolled. They're popular because they're unsupervised and uncontrolled, and a person can go there without any concern whatsoever about the fact they haven't the slightest training of any kind, can shoot anywhere, anything and in any direction they please, and can throw all their unwanted trash on the ground and no one will scold them. Folks who don't have any concern about where their muzzles point, where their trigger fingers are or how fast they can empty magazines at no target whatsoever just love these places.

I can think of no single place around Colorado Springs that does more harm to the shooting community than the Rampart 'range'. It's like a ready-made public service announcement for every cause dedicated to eradicating ownership rights and the shooting sports in general. Maybe it's the draw of being able to drain that bottle of Jack, then prop it up on the old TV set and shoot at it 'till I blast 'er into a million shards of glass. I get that...what a blast!

[Rampart Runner]

Maybe it's the draw of being able to drain that bottle of Jack, then prop it up on the old TV set and shoot at it 'till I blast 'er into a million shards of glass. I get that...what a blast!I laughed.

I have literally been up to Rampart over 250 times in the last 2 years. Although I have seen evidence of what you describe I have never seen any drinking first hand and as much as I wish I could have been on the scene to have a friendly talkin' to with the fellas who shoot up monitors; I have not seen that either.

What I have seen are untold numbers of out of staters and foreigners, numerous families with children, soldiers from Carson, hunters sighting in rifles, reloaders testing out new loads, and a fair number of boyfriends introducing one of their favorite pastimes to their girlfriend( I am talkin' bout shooting).

I pay money every year to the almighty state ( as in the gov't) to fund the USDA forest system including monies supposed to be appropriated to the running of public ranges. I don't care if there are yahoos that go up to the range. Hell, the roads are full of unwise yobs that race on the federal, state, county, and city funded roads and we don't shut the roads down.

I am a big boy and I don't need supervision while on a range.

[Jumpstart]

I am a big boy and I don't need supervision while on a range.

I concur. Don't we have enough government looking over our shoulders telling us what to do and not to do. Just close it down once a month and clean it up USFS. That's what they (USFS) get big tax dollars to do.

[BadShot]

I concur. Don't we have enough government looking over our shoulders telling us what to do and not to do. Just close it down once a month and clean it up USFS. That's what they (USFS) get big tax dollars to do.


Kinda a load of crap mentality there.. do you have the .gov come clean up your lawn?

USFS, NPS, BLM and other such agencies don't get near what you might think and their jobs are to provide for the conservation of lands, not be the fricken trash men. Personally, that's the kind of mentality that really gets under my skin. How about we insist on personal responsibility rather than just expecting the Oboma-nation to do it for us?

[Rampart Runner]

Kinda a load of crap mentality there.. do you have the .gov come clean up your lawn?

USFS, NPS, BLM and other such agencies don't get near what you might think and their jobs are to provide for the conservation of lands, not be the fricken trash men. Personally, that's the kind of mentality that really gets under my skin. How about we insist on personal responsibility rather than just expecting the Oboma-nation to do it for us?emphasis mine

I agree.


That is why I still pick up almost 20 large trash bags a week up at Rampart.( I finally have almost the whole roadway, for 250 yds either direction of the range, cleaned up. Now I am working on the forest trails adjacent)

Perhaps some of the funds collected via the Pittman-Robertson Act for the individual states to use for the construction, operation, and maintenance of public target ranges could be used in El Paso county.

The USDA forestry division has a vested interest in keeping a public range open within the national forest as it funnels the destruction of terrain into one area. The Forestry Fire district Supervisor expressed these exact sentiments to me on the day they were setting the barbed wire around Rampart Range.

While the range is unsupervised there are regulations and rules that are not enforced in regards to littering. The range is certainly not the only place where drinking, unauthorized offroading, fireworks, and littering are occuring along the Rampart Range Road. I hike/run farther than the halfway point from the range to the Rampart Resevoir. I pick up trash along the way back down and the signs of poor stewardship by the public are visible for those almost 10 miles. We haven't closed down the campgrounds or roadway. Pehaps some enforcement would be in order not just at the range. Or perhaps a game tag for litterers/dumpers [sarcasm]

[Irving]

I was talking about how trashed Rampart and Left Hand Canyon are the other day and a thought occurred to me. I am totally serious.

Why don't land fills double as shooting ranges? It would take minutes to make a berm out of trash, and there is no lack of targets.

No one has a comment about this?

[RRD3]

I normally do not go to public ranges unless I really want to test some load data. Other than that I'm either at Colorado Rifle club or out in the wilds training... not target shooting.

And to tell you the truth I'm glad to see public ranges and wish there were 300 more in the Denver area. Most would rather go there than out in the back country, and the more people that are involved with the sport the harder it is to take away. Not that they wont try.

[Jumpstart]

Kinda a load of crap mentality there.. do you have the .gov come clean up your lawn?

USFS, NPS, BLM and other such agencies don't get near what you might think and their jobs are to provide for the conservation of lands, not be the fricken trash men. Personally, that's the kind of mentality that really gets under my skin. How about we insist on personal responsibility rather than just expecting the Oboma-nation to do it for us?

1. The Pike National Forest isn't my lawn. I it were it would be cleaner.
2. USFS, NPS, BLM etc. do all kinds of restorative projects on public lands. Why is maintaining and acre of land now a hardship once a month?
3. Do you know the amount of tax dollars that go toward these agencies for activities such as that?
4. Isn't it obvious to you that personal responsibility is lacking at Rampart? Now I want governmental responsibility via my hard earned tax dollars to set aside ONE freakin day a month to clean it.
5. I don't expect Obama to do shit for me. I'm just trying to get a return on my tax dollars. Can you comprehend that mentality?

[jackmode9316]

So you actually think the only reason to go to a public range because


they're unsupervised and uncontrolled, and a person can go there without any concern whatsoever about the fact they haven't the slightest training of any kind, can shoot anywhere, anything and in any direction they please, and can throw all their unwanted trash on the ground and no one will scold them. Folks who don't have any concern about where their muzzles point, where their trigger fingers are or how fast they can empty magazines at no target whatsoever

Genius!!![Bang]

[BadShot]

Here I'll take this on and answer your points and ignore you limp attempt to address my mental state.

1. The Pike National Forest isn't my lawn. I it were it would be cleaner.

Good to hear, lord knows I too keep a clean house and property. So I'm going to take a guess here and say that you clean up after yourself when you go shooting. I can say that I do as well as anyone that I take with me. We as a rule bring back far more than we take up. Really doesn't take that much more time or effort

2. USFS, NPS, BLM etc. do all kinds of restorative projects on public lands. Why is maintaining and acre of land now a hardship once a month?

First it's more than a single acre, so multiply that out by just the number of sites on Rampart Range road and you'll get a better idea of the effort required for just that single spot in the U.S. and Yes they do tons of restorative works, but with the limits of general funding and personnel, much less the costs to on-board even a long term volunteer (that cost alone can run the agency thousands of dollars just for a volunteer. It's called HSPD12 and PIV .. google will tell you all about it), there are far better tasks for them than cleaning up after shooters. Again it reeks of a nanny state and I want the government to do it for me. Screw that, we have better things to do than clean up after lazy people... which many agencies still have to do to a massive extent anyway and for example we can start with two words.. Forrest Fires!

3. Do you know the amount of tax dollars that go toward these agencies for activities such as that?

www.OMB.gov and given that I work for a Department of Interior Bureau, yes I have a pretty good idea of how limited funding can be for the primary mission much less cleaning up after the ignorant.

4. Isn't it obvious to you that personal responsibility is lacking at Rampart? Now I want governmental responsibility via my hard earned tax dollars to set aside ONE freakin day a month to clean it.

Staffing resources, funding limitations.. hell most parks aren't even fully staffed because of funding limitations. E.G. there are spots in the organization but no money to fund the actual person to fill it. But your statement still reeks of wanting the government to take care of your or another's mess

5. I don't expect Obama to do shit for me. I'm just trying to get a return on my tax dollars. Can you comprehend that mentality?

How about enforcement of current regulations and laws over simply having those folks do what the shooters should be? Ah, then again is the issue, staffing at all time lows in conservation agencies. So yeah, lets get someone out of the USFS to take a day to go clean up after schmucks who aren't being held accountable rather than fight fires, figure out how to fight deforestation, endangered species protection, and the hundreds of other things these folks do that actually accomplish their agencies chartered mission.

Hell, why not send convicts up there from the county jail instead? Why not take it upon yourself to rally a clean up once a month. Bah, that might actually be one thing you could manage to do.... right? But alas you want to have your tax dollars do what you want them to do... hmmm, as noted previously, www.omb.gov will show you exactly where that money goes. I'm not inclined to do your research for you. But hey, what do I know, I may well be your tax dollars hardly at work right?

[Bongo Boy]

No, I don't think the only reason folks use the public ranges is because they can avoid any responsibility. My comments were at least in part emotion-laden outbursts. I too have never seen anyone drinking at Rampart, and in fact haven't even seen anyone shooting at the various remaining pieces of home entertainment equipment. I have to concede: most folks I've observed have behaved with what I'd consider reasonable care. One does have to ask, however, who the folks are who have left the 28,000 shotshell hulls, the countless tons of paper, cardboard, plywood, propane cans, beer cans and yes, Jack Daniels bottles. Not any of us, of course. And, I guess, ask, "When are they there?"

I've gone there several times, at around 0500-0600 in the morning, so I can shoot on the move, etc., and it would be a valuable resource to me if I felt it was a safe place to shoot. Should I ever go there again, however, I'd likely only go for free lead. I almost always remember to take 2 trash bags which I fill. Doesn't make a dent, but puffs my ego.

I think the mess is a problem, but I also think safety is a problem--so I simply choose not to shoot there. I personally LIKE Nazi ROs, and the more brutal their enforcement the more I like them. That's because I know first-hand how few are those who seem aware of the Four Rules, and I assume that if you don't pick up your own trash because no one is telling you to, then you don't comply with any rules unless a daddy figure is there to tell you to, either.

I think the USFS guys are too busy closing trails or something--in part because of folks who don't have to follow any rules. :)

[kidicarus13]

Kinda a load of crap mentality there.. do you have the .gov come clean up your lawn?

USFS, NPS, BLM and other such agencies don't get near what you might think and their jobs are to provide for the conservation of lands, not be the fricken trash men. Personally, that's the kind of mentality that really gets under my skin. How about we insist on personal responsibility rather than just expecting the Oboma-nation to do it for us?

Low escape risk inmates that actually see it as a chance to get outside and enjoy the weather instead of mopping the same floor twice a day inside the pen.

[SA Friday]

Ok, Ok, Ok... Time out here. This is about the differences between public and private ranges and the reasons people choose one over the other.

Yes, this stemmed from me thinking about the Rampart shooting and some of the requests for info on other ranges near CO Springs, BUT this has nothing to do with the incident or Rampart itself or why the govt or forest service or whoever isn't putting money into public ranges. It has to do with why shooters choose one over the other.

BACK ON TRACK:
Sifting through the ditritus in the posts, I'm finding out a LOT. There are HUGE misconceptions about both public and private ranges and what those terms mean to each individual.

I've shot at both in CO over the years, and have probably shot at a few that are not even in existance any more back in my high school days (you know, back when the TV show Miami Vice was cool...). So, here's what I'm seeing, the definition of a public and private range isn't the same to everyone. My definitions:

PUBLIC RANGE
Can vary from free to paying for time on the range. Can vary from having an RO to no oversight at all. Public range layout varies from static line to free ranging berms, and yardage can vary from point blank to 1000 yds. Front Sight is a public range, but so is Rampart.

PRIVATE RANGE
Exactly the same as the public range discription, but you need to purchase a membership.

This is what I see from the posts. Ironically, there have been MANY misconceptions about the differences in ranges. I have had memberships to 4 different ranges at one time. I currently only have two. One is static line, indoor; Whistling Pines(WP), in CO Springs. The other is Ben Lomand Gun Club (BLGC). You have to have memberships at both or be a guest of a member to shoot. Conversly, The Firing Line in Aurora/Denver is pretty much the same as WP, but you can pay as you go or just purchase time.

Neither BLGC or WP require me to shoot their ammo, nor restrict me from shooting reloads. The Firing Line does if I recall, and meets my definition of a public range. The difference here is the range rules.

I'm an absolute USPSA junkie, addicted to the core. I have ran balls out as fast I could at both BLGC and WP. Hell, at BLGC the amount of times you will see me standing there and popping rounds off at a target without running around is the days I'm practicing 40-100 yd pistol shots or shooting my rifles. Both of these ranges allow movement and shooting during matches. BLGC allows it every day. There are at least a half dozen other private ranges up and down the front range that do allow this type of shooting at their ranges, as there are public ranges that accomidate this type of shooting too. Then again there are both public and private ranges that DON'T allow movement and shooting. Again, there is no difference here other than the specific range rules.

I've picked trash up at both public and private ranges. Bags more at public ranges than private, but my fair share at the private ones too.

The difference for me: membership means the shooter has buy-in to the range. The buy-in means there is a group of people who want the range to be maintained and improved and have the means to organize those changes. It also means the members can alter the range constrictions/rules to accomidate the member's wishes. Public ranges only change through govt intervention. Raise your hand if you trust the govt to do the right thing for you...

[CHA-LEE]

I think it will always comes down to personal preference and what you mentioned about “Buying Into” something. With a Public range its more or less like a “One night stand” type of engagement. You go, you shoot, you leave and don’t really care about it after you left. With a Private range that you are a member of, you feel a certain amount of ownership in the range. You see something broken, trash, or whatever and you take care of it. At a Public range, you wouldn’t do that normally because most of the time the place looks like a tornado hit it already or you are paying to be there and feel that its up to the owner to clean up/fix stuff because you are already paying to be there and feel entitled to leave a mess.

Maybe this is the wrong attitude, but I know for me I feel “Safer” when at a Private range verses a Public one. Maybe its because I feel that the other shooters that have paid to be members there are like me and respect gun safety to the same extent as me? Maybe it’s the lower quantity of shooters that you see at the private range and it gives you less to worry about?

I know that when I go into Public ranges my awareness is turned up to the highest level because the places are usually jammed full of shooters at every skill level, with unfortunately the majority of them having very poor safety practices. The vast majority of the “Safety Scares” that I have seen at all of the ranges I have been to have been at Public ranges. How someone does not manage to shoot themselves or others weekly at some public ranges I have seen surprises me to be honest.

I also think that the type of shooting you do is a huge factor as well. If you want to stand in a lane and plink at paper from a stationary position then you really can’t beat a local Public range. These Public ranges are just too close to justify go anywhere else really. But if you want to draw out of a holster, shoot on the move, and engage targets at whatever shooting speed you want, most of the time the only places that allow you to do that are private ranges. That is why I am a member at Ben Lomond and Clear Creek. When I go to practice, I want to practice USPSA style shooting. If I walked into the Firing Line or the Shootist (Both public retail ranges) and asked them to shoot more than three rounds in a second or even draw from a holster they would send be packing laughing the whole time as I walked out the door.

[Pancho Villa]

I don't think anyone here would complain about a private range instituting a range officer. Private owners have the right to run their property as they see fit.

A "public" ie government-run range is no different in that sense. The government is the owner, and it can run it as it sees fit. The bigger issue here is the fact that people who both agree and disagree (and of course those who use and never use the facilities) with whatever policies are forced to support them alone. Imagine if Ben Lamond Gun Club got money from everyone in Colorado - whether you visited it or not, and whether you agreed how it was run or not! So unlike with a privately owned range, there's no real way to satisfy everyone.

My thoughts are the govt should get out of the gun range business, minus military ranges. As with all endeavors the govt takes on that should properly be private, they usually do a piss poor job of it and whatever major decisions they make piss off people who have to pay for it.

[jim02]

I will play.

Private gun club= Always wanted to join one, but either its the same distance to a free range or have a long waiting list if they are closer then the free one.

Public pay range (not public land) = dont like not being able to shoot my targets. metal spinners, various size papers. I dont like the rules they have. (thay are good rules for a business owner but not fun for me)

Public free (rampart, etc) = I own this land as a taxpayer and citizen so its mine to use. I can shoot any target I wish and from any distance and at any rate of fire and any position (prone, standing, sitting) Its always open, rain or shine, 365. I can stay as long as I want and eat/drink all I want on the range line while my kids shoot. I can pitch a shelter if I want and have a shooting picnic.

[Hannu]

I would really like to join a private gun club close to Boulder - if there is any with a waiting list shorter than a couple of years ?