Greenwood Village standoff

[buffalobo]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/front-range/greenwood-village/swat-bomb-squad-respond-to-residential-neighborhood-on-s-alton-st-in-greenwood-village

Really sucks for home owner. Their house being torn up.

[buffalobo]

Not mentioned in online article, talking head on news this morning reported police had tried to blast hole in wall and had used flash bangs.

After police finally get the scumbag, what recourse will home owner have to be made whole?

[clodhopper]

Pretty sure it falls to the homeowner's insurance.

[buffalobo]

Hopefully Irving or Dave will chime in with some insider knowledge.

Will the fact that it is result of criminal activity have bearing on the issue?

[Mtn.man]

I think they should have sent in the National Guard as well, dayum.

[Firehaus]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/04/06082c6de4c7fe24b61c214d0e3d5b56.jpg

Does no one proof read anymore?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[glenncal1]

They should negotiate with him like the Navy Seals negotiated with the Somali Pirates [AR15][AR15]

[SNAFU]

All this over some scumsuckingdicksmokerfuckturd shop lifter.

[StagLefty]

All this over some scumsuckingdicksmokerfuckturd shop lifter.

Skipped the COAR15 sensitivity class didn't ya ? [Sarcasm2]

[Skip]

Skipped the COAR15 sensitivity class didn't ya ? [Sarcasm2]

No kidding... This victim of social and economic injustice could just be getting his life together.

Comments on KUSA are hilarious. Lots of people jumping on LE without knowing the facts--it's the new gut reaction I guess.

[SNAFU]

Skipped the COAR15 sensitivity class didn't ya ? [Sarcasm2]

My only sensitivity is in my trigger finger ;)

[ZERO THEORY]

They should negotiate with him like the Navy Seals negotiated with the Somali Pirates [AR15][AR15]

Negotiation at 62 grains.

[GilpinGuy]

All this over some scumsuckingdicksmokerfuckturd shop lifter.

There's gotta be something else to this. Warrants out, illegal alien, etc. Or he's simply a lunatic.

[MarkCO]

Not mentioned in online article, talking head on news this morning reported police had tried to blast hole in wall and had used flash bangs.

After police finally get the scumbag, what recourse will home owner have to be made whole?

Depends on the jurisdiction. Many are insured by CIRSA and a claim can be filed. Some also have victim's assistance funds. Many Homeowner policies do not have coverage for police and military actions. However, some insurance companies will still attempt to get a settlement from the insurance carrier for the LEA, jurisdiction or victim's assistance funds if available.

[BushMasterBoy]

In custody...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/standoff-in-greenwood-village-continues-despite-use-of-explosives-flash-grenades-chemical-agents

[BREATHER]

How come I do not see a picture of the perp...

[Sawin]

I was glad to see the neighborhood kids thanking the officers when it was all over.

[kidicarus13]

How come I do not see a picture of the perp...
If Obama had a son...

[roberth]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/standoff-in-greenwood-village-continues-despite-use-of-explosives-flash-grenades-chemical-agents


GREENWOOD VILLAGE, Colo. - The armed man who barricaded himself inside a stranger's home in Greenwood Village is now in custody, after SWAT teams blew holes in the home, used chemical agents and flash bang grenades to end the 20-hour standoff.

[Dave_L]

You know, I've never had this come up. Let me do some research to see how insurance would handle it.

[GilpinGuy]

58784
Damn. That's some serious damage.

[Skip]

In custody...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/standoff-in-greenwood-village-continues-despite-use-of-explosives-flash-grenades-chemical-agents

Look at that pic! Looks like they got an open plan living room.

[Dave_L]

So insurance would cover it. We exclude criminal acts if it's the insured doing the activity but not in a case like this.

[buffalobo]

So insurance would cover it. We exclude criminal acts if it's the insured doing the activity but not in a case like this.
Thanks Dave, that was my question. Not sure of specific wording of my home owner policy, but my life insurance does not pay off if die participating in criminal activity.

[TheGrey]

58784
Damn. That's some serious damage.

[Shock] Holy COW!

For a shoplifter?!? I could understand the situation being different when a child was in the house, but my GOD.

[james_bond_007]

Does no one proof read anymore?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't even need to proof read....at least use SpellCheck.

[asmo]

There's gotta be something else to this. Warrants out, illegal alien, etc. Or he's simply a lunatic.

Shot at cops.. Instant way to get everyone riled the fuck up.

[Skip]

Shot at cops.. Instant way to get everyone riled the fuck up.

Yup. And demonstrate there is no limit to what else could be done.

Good ram IMHO.

[GilpinGuy]

Shot at cops.. Instant way to get everyone riled the fuck up.

I totally get that. Shoot at cops for any reason and the S should HTF immediately. Who shoots at the cops for stealing from Walmart though? I doubt he had $100K worth of goods under his shirt. But you don't have to be a genius to be a thief I guess.

[Aloha_Shooter]

I am ignorant of how the homeowner is made whole in a situation like this and I hope to remain so.

[Monky]

Oh look greenwood village got to do something fun... Other than write tickets and settle neighbors arguing when their dog shits in a flowered


Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

[Bailey Guns]

[Shock] Holy COW!

For a shoplifter?!? I could understand the situation being different when a child was in the house, but my GOD.

He shot at the cops. If he'll shoot at them he'll shoot at you given the opportunity. Sucks for the homeowner but this guy needed to be caught.

[Mtn.man]

Coulda been over hours ago if they only had a tank.

[Mtn.man]

And for the amount of damage,,, why not just go ahead and blow the whole place up i mean DAYUM, there ain't shit left.

[SuperiorDG]

Coulda been over hours ago if they only had a tank.[panic][GasM]

[TheGrey]

He shot at the cops. If he'll shoot at them he'll shoot at you given the opportunity. Sucks for the homeowner but this guy needed to be caught.

I don't know how I missed that. That changes things considerably. Shooting at the cops and in such a tight neighborhood? I'm amazed nobody was hurt.

I really feel for the homeowners- how awful to have your home chosen at random for some petty DB to hide from the cops, terrorize your child, and be the cause of massive damages to your home.

[CO Hugh]

You know, I've never had this come up. Let me do some research to see how insurance would handle it.

Why do that? It's better just to spread wild ass speculation!!

[TheGrey]

The news just reported that Greenwood Village PD said they would pay for the house. The homeowner doesn't blame the police; she blames the "suspect" that was holed up in her home for 19+ hours.

I hope they bring a civil suit against him after he's done with all of the felony charges...and I hope it's the stuff of legends.

[BPTactical]

I hope they bring a civil suit against him after he's done with all of the felony charges...and I hope it's the stuff of legends.


Blood, meet Turnip.....

[cstone]

Our agency paid for doors, windows, carpentry, etc... for any damages we caused. Most of the suspects/defendants we were arresting lived in either public housing or rentals.

I would guess that if a property owner collects on an insurance claim and then the government pays the bill or makes repairs, the insurance company would want the money back. Something about subrogation comes to mind, but insurance isn't really my line of work.

Not that I can ever recall it being an issue, but when you look at the manpower bill for a 20 hour standoff, the damage to that house probably will not cost that much. I recall a jumper one evening on the Wilson Bridge in DC. The biggest complaint made by the citizens was that the police didn't shoot the SOB and clear the massive traffic jam. When your normal two hour commute home goes over six hours, people can get sort of testy [Flower]

[Ah Pook]

58784
Damn. That's some serious damage.
Looks like the aftermath of some parties from my younger days. [Tooth]

Suspect was contained, why trash the house? Obviously it didn't work.


Blood, meet Turnip.....
But it's still fun to squeeze.

[Irving]

How come I do not see a picture of the perp...

Isn't it right the article link to which you're referring?

http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2015/06/04/Seacat_Robert_Mugshots_1433460827236_19232539_ver1 .0_900_675.jpg

[crays]

Isn't it right the article link to which you're referring?

http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2015/06/04/Seacat_Robert_Mugshots_1433460827236_19232539_ver1 .0_900_675.jpg
Wow. Giraffe-neck is looking rough. Times must be tough for the Wyatt's.

[Ah Pook]

Isn't it right the article link to which you're referring?

http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2015/06/04/Seacat_Robert_Mugshots_1433460827236_19232539_ver1 .0_900_675.jpg
Yeah, if Obama had a son. [Shake]

I can seen going to the "big house" now. "Yeah, I'm in for shoplifting at Wally World."

[Irving]

I didn't even know Walmart sold Scooby snacks. I also would like to check a policy and see what it says.

[theGinsue]

That house is toast.

[lex137]

All the residence of greenwood village just bought a new home. Sucks for the homeowner since inside items were destroyed.

[Gman]

Holy crap! I guess nuking the site from orbit wasn't an option?
http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2015/06/04/holes-in-home_1433453909253_19227412_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

[Irving]

I wonder if they have the endorsement for matching siding.

[KS63]

They got free air conditioning.

[Irving]

With the weather, looks like they'll be turning in a hail claim tonight. They should just claim all that other stuff as collateral.

[hollohas]

Holy crap! I guess nuking the site from orbit wasn't an option?
http://media.thedenverchannel.com/photo/2015/06/04/holes-in-home_1433453909253_19227412_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

Now that's just excessive. It was one guy, go through the doors for heaven's sake. Neither the homeowner nor the taxpayers should have to deal with that mess.

[Sawin]

Now that's just excessive. It was one guy, go through the doors for heaven's sake. Neither the homeowner nor the taxpayers should have to deal with that mess.

I agree 100%. Send in the robot (which they did), use infrared, break the windows even, use flashbangs, snipers, or brute force in the form of a SWAT/Entry team.....but rip open the walls?!? Not ok...

[Dave_L]

Most insurance policies have additional living expense coverage. So in a case like this, where your home is unlivable, they'll pay for your new place until you can get back in. The family is probably put up in an extended stay hotel (unless they found a rental home that quick) and having most things paid for in the meantime. It still sucks for them but at least it takes some of that stress away.

[hollohas]

I have seen a half dozen stories in the last year about the very same thing. SWAT standoff leads to destroyed home. Every one I remember was a single individual. In a recent case in NY, it was the homeowner in a stand off for skipping court on DUI charges and he fired a single shot at police when they came to get him. Different circumstances since it was a home owned by the bad guy but still unnecessary damage. The police spent 3 days ripping his house apart only to find him dead by self inflected gunshot wound when they finally decided to send officers inside. Reports were he'd been dead pretty much the entire time the house was being torn down. In that case I have a little less disagreement because it was the actual homeowner who shot at police, but the guy's family, who were trying to help negotiators talk him out, are now out of a home. Police had a right to get that guy out, dead or alive, it just sucks the family ended up on the street because everyone was too busy tearing down the house to realize the guy they were after was dead. And taxpayers have a bill for overtime for 150 different officers that worked the standoff.

I hope this isnt the new tactic that will now be employed. I think its ridiculous. This situation or one similar to it has probably happened 100,000 times in the last 40 years. I dont recall hearing about any other departments doing this. (im sure it has happened) Yet they all managed to work it out.

[Jer]

Lock your doors & close your garage doors. It amazes me how many people don't take these simple steps to make yourself a hard target. We live in a rather nice neighborhood and there was a chase after a car chase/ditched car scenario a few summers back and the two gents ran through the neighborhood looking for unlocked doors and open garage doors as they attempted to escape in broad daylight. It can happen anywhere and it can happen at any time.

[SamuraiCO]

Thought all the SWAT training, armor, etc were for just this type of scenario. Break down door, flash bangs, move in clear and take out bad guys.

Why did they do this versus what their training is providing?

[Irving]

All my joking aside, I feel bad for this family. It rained all night long. I hope someone came out to tarp up all the openings so they didn't have to sustain even more damages.

[LX470]

Tactics change over the years...taking rounds from an adversary in an unknown location as you come through a door is no longer considered smart as so many officers have been injured/killed while doing entries...robots have very limited mobility inside dwellings...

Here is LAPD's answer for SOME barricade situations:

http://gizmodo.com/the-lapds-remote-control-forklift-is-39-000-pounds-of-1459019941

[hollohas]

The notion that officer safety should be the #1 concern, AT ALL COSTS, is absurd. Police work is risky business. Chasing bad guys is risky business. Dynamic entries are risking business. Both are part of the job. Demolitions work is not.

Police work once had (and still does in many places) a number #1 concern of being respectful and responsible to the community while keeping the safety and well being of the citizens as a top priority. Most officers took the job knowing that their personal safety and well being did not come before the safety and well being of the community they serve. That’s the entire point of being a community servant.

In this case they appear to have taken officer safety to an extreme level with no consideration to the fact that they were destroying an innocent civilian’s property and subjecting them to extreme hardship. They destroyed a family’s life (albeit temporarily hopefully) all in an effort to avoid the risks associated with their chosen profession.


...as so many officers have been injured/killed while doing entries...



Let’s be real for a minute. I'll preface this by saying I'm the son of a Highway Patrol and SWAT veteran and personally knew a LEO killed while on duty, so I'm aware of the personal risks of policing. The truth is an average of 64 LEOs (local, State and federal) are feloniously killed in this country each year while on duty. And that’s been down significantly below that average in recent years, 51 total in 2014. According to the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2014-preliminary-statistics-for-law-enforcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty), 4 police officers died while “engaged in tactical situations” in 2014. According to the BJS (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/lpd13ppp_sum.pdf), there were just shy of 500k sworn local LEO’s in 2013. Assuming all of those killed during “tactical situations” were local LE, that’s a 0.0008% chance a local LE is going to be killed in an standoff each year. In reality, those killed were likely either local, state or fed in which case there were 4 killed in around 900k sworn officers.

IMO, that's a pretty minor risk in order to protect and ensure the well being of this innocent family and falls right in line with the assumed risks of the job that includes keeping the community safety as the #1 priority.

[TheGrey]

Tonight's news was about how the GVPD was now denying any responsibility for the damage they did, and punting it to the City of Greenwood Village (which had a lot of double-speak as they tried to be pleasant while still responding without saying anything one way or another.) The homeowner's insurance said they would repair any structural damage, but nothing in the home would be covered.

When I lived in Aurora, the APD SWAT team would practice "breaching" a home using one of the Alum Association's homes as their structure. They were very careful, but were also able to succeed with minor, minor damage. I wonder if Greenwood Village has similar drills?

I understand they went into overdrive because that loser shot at them. Twice. But in looking at the massive damage in the light of day, and after the torrential rains, it's beyond chucking in grenades. The thing that disturbs me most is the sudden waffling in who is taking responsibility in getting this family back to normal. It does not seem that the department and the city of Greenwood Village have the best interests of this family at heart. This disturbs me greatly. :(

[hollohas]

This IS tryanny.

[cstone]

It does not seem that the department and the city of Greenwood Village have the best interests of this family at heart. This disturbs me greatly. :(

I imagine there are a few attorney's in the Denver metro area who will be more than willing to convince the department and city of Greenwood Village that paying for the damage and inconvenience is much less expensive than going to court.

It will be interesting to watch how long it takes before someone looks at the cost of a brand new house and some cash for household goods compares to the public relations nightmare and legal expenses involved.

[Doc45]

As of 6p this evening Leo, the owner of the home, had not heard one word from anyone from GV. GV has always been run like it's it own little fifedom and Jackson along with the rest of the city managers are buffoons. Any one remember the Ocrant case? Things really haven't changed.

Regardless of what team/s actually did the breach and destruction the responsibility to the homeowner goes to the Village. Sad for Leo.

[Irving]

I believe the police department will do anything to avoid setting the precedent that they will in any way be responsible for any damages they cause. They've been getting away with that for years, there is nothing different about this case.

[hollohas]

That can't be allowed. I hope the people of that community stand behind the homeowner and collectively demand compensation on his behalf.

[Irving]

It's difficult to espouse that you are working toward the overall safety of the citizenry when the sum total of efforts at the end of the day are citizens that are worse off than they were before. As a wise rock often posts on here, sometimes you can do everything right, and still be wrong.

[rondog]

Crazy shit. All over one skinny meth head with a handgun? Coulda sent in one man with a carbine to take his bony ass out, and only damaged a bit of carpet. Or why not even send in a dog to chew on him for awhile to soften him up?

[Ridge]

Tactics change over the years...taking rounds from an adversary in an unknown location as you come through a door is no longer considered smart as so many officers have been injured/killed while doing entries...robots have very limited mobility inside dwellings...

Here is LAPD's answer for SOME barricade situations:

http://gizmodo.com/the-lapds-remote-control-forklift-is-39-000-pounds-of-1459019941

LAPD's answer is to burn down the house while the suspect is inside.

[Skip]

This IS tryanny.

I would argue the armed criminal shooting at LE is the tyrant. He is the one who visited this on that family and escalated the situation. The alternative of giving him time/space could have created more victims.

Like others said, it's a Monday-morning type deal... Had they not breached and he killed someone, people would be asking why LE "stood back and did nothing." I'm generally very quick to jump on LE when I think they are wrong too.

I agree it stinks that the home is (nearly) destroyed. But I think this will all get worked out when the lawyers get involved. Whatever insurance doesn't cover will be relatively minor for the city. GWV would probably settle for $20K of contents + some small amount for the ordeal. And even at that, the taxpayers are forced to pay for circumstances outside of their control.

But the best news here is that no innocent people were killed. Homes can be replaced/rebuilt. Yeah, it really, really, sucks, but again the bad person here is the POS criminal, every other act/decision was reactionary. These actions were taken with no one else in the home but the bad guy and I think that probably factored into the level of force especially after he fired at LE.

There is also something to be said about giving a criminal control of your home... If I abandon my home to a criminal because I have prioritized my safety above my home (maybe a good decision in some cases) I have to assume bad things are going to happen to it no matter what decisions LE makes when they arrive. I have to hope for the best possible outcome in a really shitty situation that the POS created for me. Which is the same any other time a shitbag gains control of a situation--I'm not going to decide the outcome after giving up control.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't be leaving my house except for the most extreme situations. Particularly if my son were in the house and the bad guy was coming in.

[Ridge]

Tyranny is a threat of force against the people, not the government. The government destroying a person's home because a random person ran in, then saying cleanup isn't their problem, is tyranny.

[TheGrey]

This is what I read in the Denver Post (they updated about 3 hours ago) www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28260473/owner-standoff-house-greenwood-village-is-destroyed?source=infinite (https://www.ar-15.co/www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28260473/owner-standoff-house-greenwood-village-is-destroyed?source=infinite):

"The home is insured, by Safeco Insurance, for $260,000, Lech said. The claim is being reviewed, and a clause about damage caused by "government agencies" may void coverage, he said.Safeco could not be reached for comment Friday.
Carole Walker, executive director of the Rocky Mountain Insurance Information Association, said the claim likely will be covered.
She likened it to a kitchen fire, in which firefighters cause water damage to douse a fire.
"In any claim, there is a claims adjustor, and they will do their own investigation," Walker said. "Insurance will look at it on a case-by-case basis."

After seeing this, nobody better even attempt to get into our house without invitation. We keep it locked up and everything, but I swear to god, I'd use my teeth if I had to before this sort of damage would happen to our house.

[Skip]

Tyranny is a threat of force against the people, not the government. The government destroying a person's home because a random person ran in, then saying cleanup isn't their problem, is tyranny.

A "random person" who committed a crime (minor at the time), gives chase putting lives in danger, shoots at police, and attempts to take a nine year-old hostage!?!? That's quite a reach.

A tyrant is an oppressive ruler. Rule = control. That criminal took control over that house and attempted to take control of the people in it denying them their basic rights. He demonstrated he was prepared to do so to others until stopped by overwhelming force.

If the bad guy succeeded in killing someone, but the house was left intact, would that be a preferable outcome? Would you feel better about this? I wouldn't, even if it were my house. And that was the choice LE had because there is no way to limit the potential risk without taking complete control.

That is what I tried to point out above but I guess it got lost...

[Mtn.man]

It was overkill at it's best. i hate to bash LE but they take a job that is risky. However when you are facing ONE individual that has only fired ONE shot he obviously doesn't have an Arsenal. They entered the house once but got Scared so retreated and then proceeded to destroy the structure.
Our police forces have become wannabe army play forces. Look I can dress up and look cool but damn i don't wanna go in there.
Have had many family that were/are LE none of them ever played Army Ranger spec ops blah blah and they always got their guy.

This is what America has become, Let's show people the "toys" we have as to let them know we are in charge.
LE no longer respects the people, nor do the protect and serve, it's all about the power rush.
It's all about equality, I am 5'1 but I wannabe a copper and If you don't let me I will sue.

When I was young a cop, state trooper, other LE had to be a certain height, maintain a certain weight, have a certain mentality. (thank goodness NV, and most of AZ still seem to be able to convey these standards)
Today I see over weight, under sized, bully mentality people in LE.

Anyway I feel for the people that lost their home because of a few departments that think sensationalism is the way to deal with a single perp that has no hostages.

[Irving]

The example of the fire fighters given in the article is flat wrong. What she said isn't wrong, but it does not apply to this situation.

[Jer]

I would argue the armed criminal shooting at LE is the tyrant. He is the one who visited this on that family and escalated the situation. The alternative of giving him time/space could have created more victims.

Like others said, it's a Monday-morning type deal... Had they not breached and he killed someone, people would be asking why LE "stood back and did nothing." I'm generally very quick to jump on LE when I think they are wrong too.

I agree it stinks that the home is (nearly) destroyed. But I think this will all get worked out when the lawyers get involved. Whatever insurance doesn't cover will be relatively minor for the city. GWV would probably settle for $20K of contents + some small amount for the ordeal. And even at that, the taxpayers are forced to pay for circumstances outside of their control.

But the best news here is that no innocent people were killed. Homes can be replaced/rebuilt. Yeah, it really, really, sucks, but again the bad person here is the POS criminal, every other act/decision was reactionary. These actions were taken with no one else in the home but the bad guy and I think that probably factored into the level of force especially after he fired at LE.

There is also something to be said about giving a criminal control of your home... If I abandon my home to a criminal because I have prioritized my safety above my home (maybe a good decision in some cases) I have to assume bad things are going to happen to it no matter what decisions LE makes when they arrive. I have to hope for the best possible outcome in a really shitty situation that the POS created for me. Which is the same any other time a shitbag gains control of a situation--I'm not going to decide the outcome after giving up control.

Generally speaking, I wouldn't be leaving my house except for the most extreme situations. Particularly if my son were in the house and the bad guy was coming in.
You make some good points and while I don't necessarily agree that lives would have been lost had they not demo'd the house I will agree that a damaged home is worse than a lost innocent life. All that aside, my big beef is all the entities involved washing their hands of the situation as soon as they drive away from the scene. THAT is complete bullshit. Anyone who has been displaced will tell you that acting like it's not a big deal isn't the answer. Flat out denying responsibility is just wrong. In this day and age of negative light being shed on law enforcement I'm sure that a simple 'We're sorry we felt we were left with no other option and we will work directly with your insurance company to make you whole as soon as possible. Where would you like to stay in the meantime?' would have gone an awful long way. Monday morning QB'ing aside on if it was the right move or not the way it was handled AFTER the action is 100% wrong. Period. Make this family whole as soon as possible and then work your way backwards from there on how things should have been handled. Leaving them in limbo is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

When you give someone the power to do just about anything they want and then remove any recourse of damages related to said actions don't be surprised when they quickly get out of control with their actions.

[hollohas]

Skip, the bad guy running into the house and taking control of it doesn't fit the definition of tyranny, not even close.

Tyranny - arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

What the PD did in this situation fits the definition exactly. Especially if they won't pay. What they did is a perfect example of "unrestrained exercise of power". Furthermore, the PD holds the authority and they certainly abused it.

If the home homeowner ends up having to use his insurance that's not an acceptable solution. In that case the homeowner still has a deductible and the private insurance company is forced to incur the costs for a government agency's outright disregard for personal property. If the PD/city pays, that's better but still wrong because then the taxpayers are on the hook.

The PD got carried away after they refused to take a risk that's part of their job description and as a result either the homeowner, an insurance company or the taxpayers are on the hook for an unnecessary bill.

It's simply not ok for a PD to just destory shit just because they don't want to be exposed to relatively minor risk.

[Jer]

It's simply not ok for a PD to just destory shit just because they don't want to be exposed to relatively minor risk.
Exactly. The numbers are all out of whack and don't support this being an acceptable method to deal with this and now we're looking at the why of it. Departments needs to make this family whole and they needed to do it tomorrow. If they need to deduct the paycheck of the people who green lighted this plan then they might think twice before authorizing such measures. This idea that we need to destroy buildings for just about anything they deem necessary needs to end and it needs to end now. This is the type of shit that is starting to give people who otherwise respect LE a healthy disdain for them which eventually turns into all out hatred. Pulling shit like this makes it harder for people like me to continue defending LE to those who seemingly hate them for no reason. Stop giving them reason.

[Gman]

When you give someone the power to do just about anything they want and then remove any recourse of damages related to said actions don't be surprised when they quickly get out of control with their actions.
You've described our government perfectly.

[Joe_K]

Skip, the bad guy running into the house and taking control of it doesn't fit the definition of tyranny, not even close.

Tyranny - arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

What the PD did in this situation fits the definition exactly. Especially if they won't pay. What they did is a perfect example of "unrestrained exercise of power". Furthermore, the PD holds the authority and they certainly abused it.

If the home homeowner ends up having to use his insurance that's not an acceptable solution. In that case the homeowner still has a deductible and the private insurance company is forced to incur the costs for a government agency's outright disregard for personal property. If the PD/city pays, that's better but still wrong because then the taxpayers are on the hook.

The PD got carried away after they refused to take a risk that's part of their job description and as a result either the homeowner, an insurance company or the taxpayers are on the hook for an unnecessary bill.

It's simply not ok for a PD to just destory shit just because they don't want to be exposed to relatively minor risk.
If we honestly don't want Cops acting this way, then more folks will have to start handling thier own security. If faced with a known threat, or hell even a potential threat and it was YOU how would you handle the same situation. When criminals take hold hostages, barricade themselves anywhere they are not legally allowed to how would you handle it? For the record I'm all for a more tactful, resourceful, polite LE community,and agree there are many abuses in the system at all levels of LE. So how do we fix it? Police aren't elected officials, there is no free market per se in that job market. Police Chiefs are appointed? (I belive I'm correct on that). So instead of bitching and moaning (no offense) what substansive solution can we achieve?

[Jer]

The Sheriff is the only elected LE official.

As far as what I would do in that situation I'd need more details. I know what I WOULDN'T do & that's basically what they did.

[Joe_K]

The Sheriff is the only elected LE official.

As far as what I would do in that situation I'd need more details. I know what I WOULDN'T do & that's basically what they did.
So if you had the option of using a Lenco bear cat, 20 + SWAT wearing armor, throwing bangs, gas, and ripping material items off of a house to give the suspect no sense of security and basically make his choices death or giving up.

Or sending in the Hollywood negotiater, and Andy Griffith against a complete asshole that has shown he gave zero shits about anyones property, life, or livelihood which would you choose?

Obviously those aren't the only options that are/were availible but they aren't the most extreme either. You have from LA Sheriff's burning down the cabin, to the Cops that watch something happen and do or say nothing. Nobody died, the bad guy goes to prison, the insurance pays out, and the family learns a valuable lesson about making yourself and home a harder target for scumbags.

[PSS]

Why would Andy Griffith be negotiating with the cops... oh wait, nevermind

















[Coffee]

[Bailey Guns]

The Sheriff is the only elected LE official.

In Colorado the District Attorney is elected as well. They're the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in their districts.

[Dave_L]

The home has been condemned.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/06/06/greenwood-village-home-damaged-by-police-condemned/28616353/?utm_source=9NEWS&utm_medium=twitter

[Mtn.man]

And across America:
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/family-raided-swat-and-their-dog-shot-being-unable-pay-utility-bill

[Jer]

So if you had the option of using a Lenco bear cat, 20 + SWAT wearing armor, throwing bangs, gas, and ripping material items off of a house to give the suspect no sense of security and basically make his choices death or giving up.

Or sending in the Hollywood negotiater, and Andy Griffith against a complete asshole that has shown he gave zero shits about anyones property, life, or livelihood which would you choose?

Obviously those aren't the only options that are/were availible but they aren't the most extreme either. You have from LA Sheriff's burning down the cabin, to the Cops that watch something happen and do or say nothing. Nobody died, the bad guy goes to prison, the insurance pays out, and the family learns a valuable lesson about making yourself and home a harder target for scumbags.

Really? The family's insurance premiums should go up while the agency responsible for demolition gets to walk away w/o ever absorbing even the slightest of responsibility for their actions? At some point these people need to be held accountable for their decisions and discipline needs to be levied. If this truly was the ONLY option then the discipline won't be terrible. Personally, I'm tired of the exchange of liberties for citizens being put such a far 2nd to the implied security of LE. I'm all for safety for LE but it's a job that YOU signed up for that you knew the risk of and your job is to serve the public. There are times we take precautions to provide for safer scenarios but when we're ruining lives over over upping the safety of LE 0.00001% is it really a fair trade? When does it stop? Sounds like the same argument that anti-gun people make & we're all jerks for even questioning how many kids we should save, right? After all, it's for the chirrens! Just like it's for the hero LE so I'm a jerk for questioning these tactics, right?

I'm the furthest thing from anti-cop but shit is starting to verge on the ridiculous nationally and is creating a rift. It's time for more checks & balances to be put into place to prevent unchecked actions by LE supervisors. I mean, we should all just have clear walls so cops can see inside of our homes & cars because it's for officer safety, right? When does it end?

Rather than ask me how I would handle this exact scenario (again, I have limited knowledge of the situation so to reach a solid conclusion for better actin would be irresponsible but in this case no action was better than what they ended up doing) how about we ask how to PREVENT this scenario from happening. How 'bout his ridiculous criminal record leading up to this event: "The suspect has an 8 page rap sheet in Colorado, which includes arrests for aggravated motor vehicle theft, dangerous drug distribution, burglary, theft, forgery and harassment."

I get SO sick and tired of the revolving door criminal system. Legalizing MJ is a good step towards alleviating the strain on our criminal system so that actual criminals can be kept away from society for longer periods and eventually for the rest of their lives w/o taxing the system to it's breaking point. That's what they were designed for, not for a guy who smokes a little pot on the evening and/or weekends. Let's put scum like this away for longer periods and make punishment for violent crimes an actual punishment rather than a short vacation stay with all accommodations paid for.


In Colorado the District Attorney is elected as well. They're the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in their districts.

It was a poor choice of words on my part as I was trying to address the poster who said that no LE was elected & therefore directly beholden to the people. There are other examples but the Sheriff Departments are the most well-known with the largest # of publicly visible personnel.


The home has been condemned.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/06/06/greenwood-village-home-damaged-by-police-condemned/28616353/?utm_source=9NEWS&utm_medium=twitter

Of course it is.

[cstone]

If GV cut Mr. Lech a check for $400K and gave the son who was renting the house an opportunity to get as much of his property out of the house before the city leveled it, I am guessing this story would die and most of the criticisms here would become moot.

If the citizens of GV don't want that type of settlement, they should elect representatives to effect change to prevent a similar response.

As it is, no one was hurt, and the suspect is in custody facing multiple charges.

My $.02

Be safe.

[OneGuy67]

There were four tactical teams there, relieving one another. GV, Douglas, Arapahoe and Aurora. Most of the damage was caused by SWAT teams other than GV, but they did contribute. Douglas had the 'bot. Arapahoe SWAT made the entry and attempted to restrain the suspect, who fought with the cops.

GV's insurance carrier is in the process of evaluating a claim. Takes a bit of time.

[KS63]

Market value of $276k. Insurance coverage of $260k. What kind of new build could the homeowner get compared to his old home? Was the 8/9 yr old son home alone at night? I can't find anything on where his parents were. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[SideShow Bob]

Was the 8/9 yr old son home alone at night? I can't find anything on where his parents were. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you read the article, you would know that it all started around 1330 hrs.on a weekday just after school let out for the summer.
There are plenty of latch key kids and home alone kids during the summer due to both parents working just to make ends meet and cannot afford day care.
And do you honestly think the outcome would have been any better if one or both parents were home when the armed dirtbag busted into the home ?

[OneGuy67]

If you read the article, you would know that it all started around 1330 hrs.on a weekday just after school let out for the summer.
There are plenty of latch key kids and home alone kids during the summer due to both parents working just to make ends meet and cannot afford day care.

And the house was two blocks from the Cherry Creek High School, Campus Middle School and Belleview Elementary School campus.

[Skip]

You make some good points and while I don't necessarily agree that lives would have been lost had they not demo'd the house I will agree that a damaged home is worse than a lost innocent life. All that aside, my big beef is all the entities involved washing their hands of the situation as soon as they drive away from the scene. THAT is complete bullshit. Anyone who has been displaced will tell you that acting like it's not a big deal isn't the answer. Flat out denying responsibility is just wrong. In this day and age of negative light being shed on law enforcement I'm sure that a simple 'We're sorry we felt we were left with no other option and we will work directly with your insurance company to make you whole as soon as possible. Where would you like to stay in the meantime?' would have gone an awful long way. Monday morning QB'ing aside on if it was the right move or not the way it was handled AFTER the action is 100% wrong. Period. Make this family whole as soon as possible and then work your way backwards from there on how things should have been handled. Leaving them in limbo is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

When you give someone the power to do just about anything they want and then remove any recourse of damages related to said actions don't be surprised when they quickly get out of control with their actions.

^ I completely agree with this. They should not have simply left and told the homeowners and occupants to pound sand or call an insurance number. Just because the situation may have justified what they did doesn't absolve them of making those folks homeless for, what I assume, is going to be in the months.

Like I said, that usually gets sorted out when the lawyers get involved, so the city is probably going to pay something. Might as well have done the stand up thing up front.

You're absolutely right. They could be 100% right in what they did but 100% wrong in how they handled it after the fact.


Skip, the bad guy running into the house and taking control of it doesn't fit the definition of tyranny, not even close.

Tyranny - arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

What the PD did in this situation fits the definition exactly. Especially if they won't pay. What they did is a perfect example of "unrestrained exercise of power". Furthermore, the PD holds the authority and they certainly abused it.

If the home homeowner ends up having to use his insurance that's not an acceptable solution. In that case the homeowner still has a deductible and the private insurance company is forced to incur the costs for a government agency's outright disregard for personal property. If the PD/city pays, that's better but still wrong because then the taxpayers are on the hook.

The PD got carried away after they refused to take a risk that's part of their job description and as a result either the homeowner, an insurance company or the taxpayers are on the hook for an unnecessary bill.

It's simply not ok for a PD to just destory shit just because they don't want to be exposed to relatively minor risk.

So you think risk to a home is more significant than any risk to a human being? Okay, say it's not a cop, but someone else in the neighborhood. Still feel that way? Would you feel that way if it was you or a loved one?

I wouldn't want anyone (okay, maybe the dirtbag [Mad]) hurt to preserve a home that is fully insured, in a city that also has insurance, in a society with lawyers who can go to court and get it figured out.

The folks screaming "tyranny" make it sound like the PD was rolling around looking for citizens to punish. That wasn't the case. It's unnecessary hyperbole. If you want to accuse LE of tyranny, look at other cases like Eric Garner or the "New Mexico rectal exam" case. Boston too. Those are valid and very concerning, IMHO.

But this case?

LE followed an escalation created by the dirtbag. They had him pinned, without anyone else in the home, and they decided to overwhelm him to end it.

Would the house have been harmed if said criminal wasn't inside?

Of course not. So it wasn't about destroying that house, it never was. It was unfortunate and shitty but it was all brought about the dirtbag picking that house and the occupants giving up control. This, after all, is one of many reasons why many of us on this forum carry guns and know how to use them. To never lose control to a POS with a gun.

I understand emotions get the best of people sometimes. Those pictures are horrible... :(


[snip]

Rather than ask me how I would handle this exact scenario (again, I have limited knowledge of the situation so to reach a solid conclusion for better actin would be irresponsible but in this case no action was better than what they ended up doing) how about we ask how to PREVENT this scenario from happening. How 'bout his ridiculous criminal record leading up to this event: "The suspect has an 8 page rap sheet in Colorado, which includes arrests for aggravated motor vehicle theft, dangerous drug distribution, burglary, theft, forgery and harassment."

[snip]

This is very valid and something that should be discussed. If we want to assign liability, we really should be asking why he was out in the first place. Because after the shitbag is out, everything else is reactionary and everyone is a bad spot.

[hollohas]

So you think risk to a home is more significant than any risk to a human being? Okay, say it's not a cop, but someone else in the neighborhood. Still feel that way? Would you feel that way if it was you or a loved one?

........

The folks screaming "tyranny" make it sound like the PD was rolling around looking for citizens to punish. That wasn't the case. It's unnecessary hyperbole. If you want to accuse LE of tyranny, look at other cases like Eric Garner or the "New Mexico rectal exam" case. Boston too. Those are valid and very concerning, IMHO.



I would feel the same way if it was a loved one and that's not a guess, it's personal experience. I know what's it like to have a loved one in those situations. And he being a LE and SWAT veteran feels the same way I do, that is that the complete destruction of the house was unnecessary and extremely overboard.

I never said the PD was running around looking for citizens to punish nor did I even suggest it. I don't believe they were, they were chasing a bad guy. I agree the bad guy was the reason for all of this. But the response and the apparent refusal of everyone to immediately take responsibility for fixing it is what makes it absolutly and unquestionably an unrestrained exercise of power...and as I said before, that is the definition of tyranny. I don't want to accuse anyone of tyranny, I just call it when I see it. Had they immediately afterwords said "oh shit, we may have went a little overboard, Mr homeowner, we're going to make this right and do it the easiest way possible" the word "tyranny" wouldn't even had crossed my mind. I would instead be typing that I respected the compassion and respect the agencies showed the homeowner.

I have an extremely high respect for LEO's and it's exactly because of this respect that I hold them to a high standard. It actually makes me sad to see any act in a fashion that meets the definition.

[Joe_K]

Imagine this analogous scenario. Same douche knuckle car jacks a vehicle with passengers in it, in fact its the owners sole vehicle. After police take chase the passenger escapes. The criminal now leads police on an hours long chase, shooting at the Cops in the process. Endangering not only the lives of the responding officers but the public at large. Police From several departments use nail strips, pit moves, and finally are able to force the car off of the road. Cops smash out all the windows with beanbag rounds and batons, and only after they taze, and tear gas him do they get him to comply, the jaws of life are used to extricate the criminal from the vehicle. As a result the vehicle is a complete loss and is totalled.

OK should the municipality or Law Enforcement Department pay for a new vehicle? Why are the officers accused of acting with extreme force?

[theGinsue]

I'm going to have to call foul on the analogy. In a vehicle, there is a greater likelihood that the BG can/will harm others, innocents. With the BG cornered inside an unoccupied home with the area evacuated, there is essentially no risk of innocents being physically harmed.

I, too, feel that the agencies/city should step up and take financial responsibility for the destruction of this home. Due to the precipitating actions of this BG, these departments used tactics so severe that they took an otherwise fine and livable $260k home filled with personal possessions and irreplaceable mementos and turned it into a condemned heap of waste with (as I understand it) few salvageable possessions.

Let's try another analogy. Say a BG is holed up someplace and before LE can get the area evacuated they see a need to fire on the BG's location. In doing so an innocent civilian is struck by an LE's round. Does the responsible LEO and their agency/municipal government entity get held accountable? From what I've seen, yes - there is a financial obligation on behalf of the city/county/state...for the actions of their representative. This applies in injury and in death. Sadly, most .gov bodies haven't paid attention to the various losses in the courts for these events and continue to force the victims &/or their families to take these institutions to court for redress. While I'm sure someone is running the actuarials in these cases and advising they'd risk less cost in letting the courts decide versus being up front with fair compensation, in the end, it's the taxpayers who eat the legal fees, court costs and judgements.

In my humble opinion, GV should do the stand up thing and pay to rebuild this home, replace destroyed contents, and provide adequate living accommodations to this affected family and the homeowner without consideration for the courts or the victims insurance coverage. But then again, that's what an honorable institution would do & we rarely see honor from within the halls of our government anymore.

[Joe_K]

What was preventing the guy from shooting someone other than police, or shooting at the officers again ? Building entry's seldom go as planned, in a populated residential area over penetration and flip outs are a real risk and a liability. Does anybody know how far away the nearest innocent was to the house? Also what fund or funds would the police draw from to replace the home? If in the same scenario as these homeowners I would not want the police or the city to pay for my shit luck.

[Joe_K]

Owner of standoff home: 'This is an abomination': http://youtu.be/rD_Vj6EJ39g

Houses, cars, pets, livestock, clothes, all replacable. As my wife says constantly
"First World Problems"

[Irving]

Seems like we pay a price, through taxes and other compromises, to benefit from living in a city. Part of the tax money goes to public services to make the city more safe, such as police and fire fighters. When insurance policies specifically exclude damage done by government activity, that is not from a covered loss, it wouldn't see unreasonable to have the city assist the homeowner in recovering from such events. Not to mention, the rate of such things happening is so low that it shouldn't put much strain on the city budget as a whole. Especially consdering that far more money is probably poured into far more ineffective programs every year anyway.

So the question is, will the people of Greenwood Village be okay with more speed traps and red light cameras to offset the cost of this event if the police end up paying for it?

[OneGuy67]

Seems like we pay a price, through taxes and other compromises, to benefit from living in a city. Part of the tax money goes to public services to make the city more safe, such as police and fire fighters. When insurance policies specifically exclude damage done by government activity, that is not from a covered loss, it wouldn't see unreasonable to have the city assist the homeowner in recovering from such events. Not to mention, the rate of such things happening is so low that it shouldn't put much strain on the city budget as a whole. Especially consdering that far more money is probably poured into far more ineffective programs every year anyway.

So the question is, will the people of Greenwood Village be okay with more speed traps and red light cameras to offset the cost of this event if the police end up paying for it?

Being in the insurance industry Irving, you should be aware of CIRSA, the Colorado Intergovernmental Risk Sharing Agency, otherwise known as GV's insurance company. Nothing moves fast with them.

While the city may have a line item in which they can use for this type of event, more than likely, they will wait to see what CIRSA decides to do. Has nothing to do with speed traps or red light cameras, but I understand you need to speak to your beliefs of revenue generators.

[MarkCO]

In Colorado the District Attorney is elected as well. They're the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in their districts.

AG has said it is the Sherriff...that is why the sheriffs sign off on ATF forms and CCW permits.

Think I said what would likely happen in post #14. I've worked on many cases where government agencies caused property damage and or injury to innocents by direct action. Takes some time, but that is the way it goes with insurance.

[OneGuy67]

Here is an article with the agency's interview. http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/06/06/greenwood-village-home-damaged-by-police-condemned/28616353/

GREENWOOD VILLAGE - The home damaged by police after an armed man barricaded himself inside for hours has been condemned according to the homeowner. Leo Lech owns the home, but had been renting it to his son who lived there with his fiance' and her son.

On Wednesday night, a suspected shoplifter illegally entered the home in the 4200 block of South Alton Street.

"In the process of eluding and evading officers on foot, he entered a home illegally, unlawfully, and attempted to take that home over and there happened to be an 8 to 9-year-old young boy in there," said Commander Dustin Varney with the Greenwood Village Police Department. "By the graces of God, that young boy managed to get out on his own accord and alert us, as the police were already responding to the area because alarms were already going off in the home."

The boy told police the suspect was armed and had asked him if he had access to a car or keys.

"At about that same time the garage door opens up," said Commander Varney. "He sees the police officers out front, he starts to shut the door and then attempts to shoot at one of the police officers, hitting one of the police officer's car, almost hitting the officer."

In order to keep the public safe nearby homes were evacuated. The residents were put up in hotels by the police department.

Numerous other agencies, including the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office, Douglas County Sheriff's Office and the Aurora Police Department assisted. They set up a perimeter and began negotiating with the suspect, later identified as Robert Seacat. "Our goal as law enforcement is to get him to surrender," said Commander Varney. "We want him to come out alive. We want him to come out unharmed. We want the public to be safe in doing that."

Negotiations lasted well into the night but eventually broke down when police say they met some of Seacat's demands but he failed to hold up his end of the agreement.

Officers tried to draw him out by making him uncomfortable, but nothing worked. Eventually a team of officers was sent inside the home.

"When we introduced the team, he fired several shots randomly," said Varney. "We had no idea where he was in the house. We were just trying to locate him and he tried to kill several of our officers."

The team was pulled out, and a decision was made to poke holes in the home to give officers an advantage over the suspect.

"My options are to send a team in to try to find him, and run the risk of him being shot, or the officers being shot, or I run the risk of poking holes in the house with an appropriate tool that's afforded to me so that I can see him and we don't get anybody killed, " said Commander Varney. "If you look at the outcome, it's unfortunate, yes, there are holes in that house. We don't plan for that, but if anybody is going to sit there and say that young man's life, even though he's a suspect isn't worth as much as the property, they need to take a look up and rethink really who they are. He may be a suspect in the case but he is a human life, and in law enforcement we value that. We do everything we can to not have to take that life."

On Thursday morning, officers entered the home and brought Seacat out. He was not hurt and neither were any officers.

"The decisions that were made, were made for the community, for the safety of the suspect, for the consideration of the property were all in line with what I would say are reasonable and necessary for us to do what we had to do to get that suspect out safe and keep the officers safe."

While there were no injuries, the home has been condemned according to the homeowner and will have to be torn down. His homeowner's insurance will cover that. "It's valued at $276,000, so provided that this can be rebuilt, because the property has been condemned, it's totally destroyed. It's uninhabitable, so provided it can be rebuilt for that amount of money then the insurance company is going to cover it."

Lech says the insurance won't cover personal belongings for his son and his family. They did not have renter's insurance. Right now they're staying with friends.

He believes the actions by police were excessive. "I understand you have to apprehend the gunman," Lech said. "I got it. If they would have had to blow some tear gas through the windows, got it, of course. Break down the doors for SWAT teams to enter, you know, bullet holes inside the home, I fully understand that, but to use serious explosives to blow this all part? Every single room in this home has been blown up by an explosive device! This for one shoplifter, for a handgun, this is an atrocity!"

Commander Varney says Seacat was more in possession of a significant amount of narcotics and was more than a shoplifter. "It may have started as a shoplift, but the suspect was eluding and evading police because he had four active felony warrants in the system, many of them which were for drugs."

Commander Varney says the Police Chief has personally reached out to the homeowner and is working with him. He also says officers let the residents of the home inside the crime scene to gather as many personal belongings as they could.

"The homeowner is upset because his home was destroyed and I get that, a man's home is his castle, and I understand that and we're doing what we can to make things whole again."

City administrators will also discuss whether to help pay for the damage.

[Irving]

Being in the insurance industry Irving, you should be aware of CIRSA, the Colorado Intergovernmental Risk Sharing Agency, otherwise known as GV's insurance company. Nothing moves fast with them.

While the city may have a line item in which they can use for this type of event, more than likely, they will wait to see what CIRSA decides to do. Has nothing to do with speed traps or red light cameras, but I understand you need to speak to your beliefs of revenue generators.

I'm unaware of that agency, but do know that government insurance is SLOW. My comment about revenue generators could have been more fleshed out as I'm posting mobile. My intention was to say that it is easy for us to declare and demand that the police, or the city, should pay for such losses; but the reality is that no agency or government would agree to such an arrangement without a sure way to be able to afford it.

[OneGuy67]

I'm unaware of that agency, but do know that government insurance is SLOW. My comment about revenue generators could have been more fleshed out as I'm posting mobile. My intention was to say that it is easy for us to declare and demand that the police, or the city, should pay for such losses; but the reality is that no agency or government would agree to such an arrangement without a sure way to be able to afford it.

And with that, we are in agreement!

[Irving]

Same as regular insurance basically. The broader the coverage, the more expensive the premium. [Beer]

[MarkCO]

Same as regular insurance basically. The broader the coverage, the more expensive the premium. [Beer]

Actually, CIRSA is not the same as regular insurance. Also, the standard of care of a governmental agency varies based on many factors. If an expert were to evaluate what occurred and the PD did not follow their own protocols or it was not determined by the person in charge that the specific incident was outside of normal protocols and acted based on their best judgement, CIRSA could deny a claim. Greenwood Village is in fact covered by CIRSA, which is pooled self-insurance with each member also being an owner, and it is only for Colorado. Some of the bigger municipalities are not members, for instance Denver is not a member of CIRSA. Even if the owner's insurance company pays for the structure, they will likely subrogate against one of more of the involved agencies. Like regular insurance, CIRSA is likely investigating, but may have not been presented with an actual claim yet.

[Doc45]

Supoosedly the Village held a news conference at 6pm, I guess we'll see what they had to say at 10.

[Irving]

Actually, CIRSA is not the same as regular insurance. Also, the standard of care of a governmental agency varies based on many factors. If an expert were to evaluate what occurred and the PD did not follow their own protocols or it was not determined by the person in charge that the specific incident was outside of normal protocols and acted based on their best judgement, CIRSA could deny a claim. Greenwood Village is in fact covered by CIRSA, which is pooled self-insurance with each member also being an owner, and it is only for Colorado. Some of the bigger municipalities are not members, for instance Denver is not a member of CIRSA. Even if the owner's insurance company pays for the structure, they will likely subrogate against one of more of the involved agencies. Like regular insurance, CIRSA is likely investigating, but may have not been presented with an actual claim yet.

I meant my comment about revenue generation. Again, I've zero experience or knowledge of CIRSA, so none of my comments are concerning that agency.

[Great-Kazoo]

Supoosedly the Village held a news conference at 6pm, I guess we'll see what they had to say at 10.


They were investing in Thermal Imaging optics?

"When we introduced the team, he fired several shots randomly," said Varney. "We had no idea where he was in the house. We were just trying to locate him and he tried to kill several of our officers."

[Joe_K]

I have never seen or used thermals that would let you see through walls, that's Hollywood and the NSA spooks.

[MarkCO]

I have never seen or used thermals that would let you see through walls, that's Hollywood and the NSA spooks.

I have used combination optics that use 3D radar and thermal to create what does look like a thermal signature. However, it is a software solution based on the combination of the 3D, movement and thermal. It is pretty cool, but well beyond the price point that local LE is going to be able to afford. The one unit I was able to play with cost more than a house itself.

[asmo]

Kyllo v. United States
The primary reason why LE doesn't have Thermal 'through-walls' imagers in their inventory.


Yes I know this was exigent and no warrant needed. Just pointing out that the case above is why LE doesn't keep those things around.

[Great-Kazoo]

Kyllo v. United States
The primary reason why LE doesn't have Thermal 'through-walls' imagers in their inventory.


Yes I know this was exigent and no warrant needed. Just pointing out that the case above is why LE doesn't keep those things around.

That we know of ;)

[kidicarus13]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/01/20/police-departments-quietly-equipped-with-device-that-lets-them-see-through-walls/

This might be a delicate moment for the police to reveal they have radar guns that allow them to see through the walls of houses, and that they’ve been using them for the past two years without telling the public. In fact, they still haven’t formally announced the technology; USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/19/police-radar-see-through-walls/22007615/) describes the radar devices as “largely unknown until December, when a federal appeals court in Denver said officers had used one before they entered a house to arrest a man wanted for violating his parole.” The judges on that court were not keen on the idea of using such technology without a search warrant.
Now that the cat is out of the bag, we learn that the Marshals Service has been using these devices since 2012, and they have now spread to at least fifty other law enforcement agencies, including the FBI. It’s an adaptation of military technology used in Iraq and Afghanistan. The device isn’t quite the set of Superman spectacles USA Today’s headline implies – it’s a bit closer in concept to the motion detectors from the movie “Aliens.” (That’s probably not going to make anyone in the civil-liberties movement feel better about them…)
The idea is that radar pulses pass through the wall of a building and track moving objects up to 50 feet away. The commonly deployed Range-R device displays the range to moving targets detected on the other side of a wall, but USA Today reports there are more advanced devices on the way that can create “three-dimensional displays of where people are located inside a building.” One model can be mounted on a drone.
Oh, that’s definitely not going to win any warm, fuzzy feelings from privacy advocates. If no one has briefed him yet, I would like to volunteer to be the guy who tells Senator
As with almost every other Panopticon controversy, the Range-R system is an example of high technology turning yesterday’s thought experiment into today’s hard, cold, battery-powered reality. As USA Today notes, the Supreme Court took a dim view of violating the sanctity of a citizen’s home by merely using a drug dog to sniff around the premises, or penetrating the walls with thermal imaging devices. One supposes that three-dimensional images of the interior created with radar echoes would be right out.
The Supreme Court also ruled, in Kyllo v. United States, that the use of thermal imaging technology to conduct “through the walls” surveillance without a warrant was unacceptable. But that 5-4 ruling employed an interesting standard – it was judged that because the military-grade thermal imaging system employed to discover Danny Lee Kyllo was using heat lamps to grow a hundred marijuana plants wasn’t available to the general public, Kyllo had a “subjective expectation of privacy.”
He didn’t think it would be possible to see through the walls of his house, so the warrantless thermal scan constituted unreasonable search and seizure. This would presumably also cover radar detection… unless, perhaps, the Court decides this amazing technology is merely more efficient at delivering information that could be obtained with eyes and ears. Interestingly enough, the Kyllo ruling mentioned the possible future development of technology that could allow the police to see through solid walls.
(For the record, the Marshals Service has argued that its arrest warrants grant it authorization to use these radar devices to locate suspects, and the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals somewhat queasily agreed, while warning that it expected more cases involving the use of such technology to vex the courts in years to come.)
Naturally, privacy advocates are upset that these devices were put into service without notifying the public, and it is equally natural for law enforcement to say that it doesn’t want to tip its hand to criminals by issuing splashy press releases describing all of the surveillance tools at its disposal. Now that we’ve learned about the Range-R system, maybe the bad guys will figure out ways to defeat it. That’s always a risk in the surveillance game, on every playing field from the Internet to the front door of the local drug den.
These radar devices have enormous value for saving the lives of officers during raids – every tactical team would love to know exactly where the bad guys are before they go through the door. Their usefulness for the creepier forms of government surveillance is somewhat limited. Being able to determine the approximate position of people moving around inside a house is nothing compared to, say, the NSA harvesting cell phone and email metadata. Still, it’s likely that people who are already nervous about the Surveillance State, and those who are angry at the police for other reasons, will have a bit of trouble getting past the idea that “the cops can see through walls now.”