Historical NFA?

[KestrelBike]

Question for our more knowledgeable members: what was the NFA like in the 1970s and 1980s? I know you had to get a tax stamp for SBRs and select fire weapons, but what was the process like? Did you have to mail out a form 4 or whatever and wait awhile to get the stamp before you could buy one at a LGS? Or were those stamps basically for Form 1 manufacturing purposes, as no companies were making sbrs for direct civilian purchase? Obviously the 1986 mg-manufacturing ban for civilians turned the mg market upside down.

Basically for class we're reading a book about urban crime, and it says that kids (teenagers, but probably 18/19yos) were buying handguns and submachineguns at LGSs in VA during the 1980s and bringing them into DC to wage their crack wars. Keep in mind these teenagers predominantly have criminal records already.

The book's full of shit, but I want to keep my facts straight for class discussion.

[Great-Kazoo]

What's the title of the book & author

In the 80's you had to Form 4 MG's. There was a very good selection to choose from, and prices were still reasonably sane. One had to go through a FFL that was licensed to carry NFA items. There was not any Legit dealer selling Legal machineguns to anyone.

On the flip side, having lived in NY up until the first part of the 80's. I might hypothesize one could make a call (again hypothetically) and have any (revolver or pistol) in a 24 - 36 hr time frame. Cash & Carry no questions asked.
For semi long guns EVERYTHING WAS LEGAL IN NY. FNC's ran $975 H&K 91 & 93's were topping out at the $1K mark . There was NO BAN besides NYC proper.

The last MG i was offered was an Ingram Open Bolt Mac (45) for $850 through my FFL over in greeley, $200 stamp not included. Turn around time from day paperwork sent to approval was approx 60 days, based on my experience. That was in 91

FWIW: Anytime someone mentions young adults, they're always described as teenagers. We both know that's horse shit.

[Alpha2]

"FWIW: Anytime someone mentions young adults, they're always described as teenagers. We both know that's horse shit."

Truer words were ne'er spoke.

[KestrelBike]

Thanks for the info, GK! The book is Dream City: Race, Power, and the Decline of Washington, D.C. by Harry Jaffe. It's about Marion Berry Jr. and his escapades in DC as mayor. Below are three excerpts that deal with the gun situation in DC. As you can see, it just doesn't add up when you consider NFA-1934, GCA-1968 as well as the Omnibus Crime Bill-1968 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Crime_Control_and_Safe_Streets_Act_of_1968 ) that made basically all of those scenarios impossible to have been done legally. I just can't imagine many LGS dealers in Virginia at that time who would risk their licenses/stores/freedom to sell weapons to young adults who didn't have VA IDs (or fake ones that didn't look legit), but maybe I'm wrong. What's probably not-disuptable is that a large number of people were definitely getting shot and killed during the crack wars, but I bet that those guns were A) stolen from lawful owners in VA/MD and B) were brought into the US and into DC from Central/South America/Caribbean. Thoughts?

As for the authors, they're liberal, they drop a hell of a lot of names and seem to have a lot of details, and they absolutely destroy Marion Berry. It's just when they get to the gun stuff that I think they go all sensationalist.


It became clear in 1986 that Edmond and other homegrown dealers couldn't satisfy the demand, and word of the lucrative Washington market spread to Jamaican gangs out of New York and Miami. The Jamaicans were the first vertically integrated black drug-dealing operations to hit the United States. They were capable of importing cocaine, distributing it through wholesale networks, and selling it retail directly to customers through apartments that became known as crack houses. The Jamaicans helped to introduce crack to Washington, but their legacy was gunfire and violence. D.C. police busted Jamaican crack houses and found AR-15 assault rifles [Brought into DC by the Jamacains from Central/South American countries that the US had given foreign aid (weapons) to?], Glock semiautomatic pistols [Stolen/Graft from NYPD?], and Mini-Tee Nines [no idea]— all sophisticated, high-powered weapons that could fire bursts of bullets.

The District government passed one of the strictest gun control laws in the nation in the mid-1970s. Private citizens cannot own or carry a handgun legally. The city issues no permits. There are no exceptions. Moreover, the federal agency charged with regulating guns— the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms— is headquartered in the District. But the District's law was impossible to enforce, primarily because there's an arms bazaar at the city's back door. Right across the Potomac River in Virginia, gun control regulations were virtually nonexistent and easily skirted. Any teenager from Washington with folding cash could belly up to a gun store counter, buy an arsenal of high-powered weapons, and cross one of four bridges into the District loaded with guns and ammo. So many handguns came into the capital that the prices went through the floor. Anyone could rent a handgun for a day, buy one for fifty dollars, or trade one for cocaine. [bullshit]

Edmond's top enforcers, Jerry Millington and James "Tonio" Jones, knew that Michael Frey would retaliate for Brandon Terrell's shooting. They dispatched Greg Royster to a gun shop in Virginia Beach, and he returned with a small cache of semiautomatic weapons and submachine guns. [I don't see how he could have done this, because GCA-1968 banned interstate sales, and long guns/shotguns were banned by DC so they could not be bought by a resident going into VA. Submachine guns is where they go full retard, because as you stated only certain NFA licensees were selling them]

Jaffe, Harry (2014-04-22). Dream City: Race, Power, and the Decline of Washington, D.C. (Kindle Locations 4115-4117). Argo-Navis. Kindle Edition.


On the flip side, having lived in NY up until the first part of the 80's. I might hypothesize one could make a call (again hypothetically) and have any (revolver or pistol) in a 24 - 36 hr time frame. Cash & Carry no questions asked.
For semi long guns EVERYTHING WAS LEGAL IN NY. FNC's ran $975 H&K 91 & 93's were topping out at the $1K mark . There was NO BAN besides NYC proper.

So wait, who was selling these "make a call" revolvers/pistols? LGS owners/employees operating out of the back hush-hush? Or the mob/criminals who obviously did not have FFL licenses? This is the distinction I am trying to make. I want to make the disconnect between the crack-wars being supplied by legal means vs illegal black-market means.

[Great-Kazoo]

So wait, who was selling these "make a call" revolvers/pistols? LGS owners/employees operating out of the back hush-hush? Or the mob/criminals who obviously did not have FFL licenses? WHO do you think?? This is the distinction I am trying to make. I want to make the disconnect between the crack-wars being supplied by legal means vs illegal black-market means.

and Mini-Tee Nines Tec-9's is what they're referring to. It's one of those piece of shit guns the homies were enamored to.
The same folks supplying drugs supplied their contacts with armament, to protect their investment.

There's nothing on the streets of ANYTOWN USA, then or now being supplied by John Doe LGS owner. Not to say some shady characters with a FFL may or may not have been engaging in illegal activities. Gangs of any ethnicity, foreign country can be very persuasive, or so i've read and seen on tv. There's a market for stolen goods, be it tv's, cell phones, credit cards, SS numbers etc. You have to put the pcs of the puzzle together for yourself.

[Circuits]

In the days of open-bolt semi autos, it was rather trivial to convert an open bolt semi-auto pistol or carbine into a functional, if cheap and crappy, SMG. That is what the books look back on and refer to, and why the production of open bolt semi automatics was banned by the ATF in the early 80s for them being "readily convertible".

Cartels and high level players have never had a problem scoring full auto toys, then, now, or in the future, it was the proliferation of high capacity semi autos, and readily convertible shit SMGs that gave the ragin' 80s its "Cocaine Cowboys" reputation.

[KestrelBike]

and Mini-Tee Nines Tec-9's is what they're referring to. It's one of those piece of shit guns the homies were enamored to.
The same folks supplying drugs supplied their contacts with armament, to protect their investment.

There's nothing on the streets of ANYTOWN USA, then or now being supplied by John Doe LGS owner. Not to say some shady characters with a FFL may or may not have been engaging in illegal activities. Gangs of any ethnicity, foreign country can be very persuasive, or so i've read and seen on tv. There's a market for stolen goods, be it tv's, cell phones, credit cards, SS numbers etc. You have to put the pcs of the puzzle together for yourself.

Very good points, this'll be useful to dig further and bring up in class, if the instructor does (which I doubt).


In the days of open-bolt semi autos, it was rather trivial to convert an open bolt semi-auto pistol or carbine into a functional, if cheap and crappy, SMG. That is what the books look back on and refer to, and why the production of open bolt semi automatics was banned by the ATF in the early 80s for them being "readily convertible".

Cartels and high level players have never had a problem scoring full auto toys, then, now, or in the future, it was the proliferation of high capacity semi autos, and readily convertible shit SMGs that gave the ragin' 80s its "Cocaine Cowboys" reputation.

Ah, thanks for the info on open-bolt semis. I had read something like that a long time ago, but forgot about it but very helpful in terms of manufacturing "SMGs" after the fact.

[Irving]

One thing I'd like to point out about this type of discussion, is the over exaggeration of how easily things can be obtained. If you ever go to a personal wealth seminar, all they talk about is how easy it is to get rich. You just have to know the steps, that they teach you, and go out and do it. "Anybody can do it!" They say, and everyone in attendance reads the steps, listens to the pitch and says to themselves, "This is simple. I CAN DO THIS!"

This is what happens when people read about having cash and making calls and guns falling out of the sky. Sure it sounds easy on paper, so everyone must have been doing it right?

[Great-Kazoo]

One thing I'd like to point out about this type of discussion, is the over exaggeration of how easily things can be obtained. If you ever go to a personal wealth seminar, all they talk about is how easy it is to get rich. You just have to know the steps, that they teach you, and go out and do it. "Anybody can do it!" They say, and everyone in attendance reads the steps, listens to the pitch and says to themselves, "This is simple. I CAN DO THIS!"

This is what happens when people read about having cash and making calls and guns falling out of the sky. Sure it sounds easy on paper, so everyone must have been doing it right?

There's a difference between being able to Do It and actually having the item work as it's suppose to. We had a saying in the service dept. Just because One has the Tools, doesn't mean They have the Knowledge

[Circuits]

Edmond's top enforcers, Jerry Millington and James "Tonio" Jones, knew that Michael Frey would retaliate for Brandon Terrell's shooting. They dispatched Greg Royster to a gun shop in Virginia Beach, and he returned with a small cache of semiautomatic weapons and submachine guns. [I don't see how he could have done this, because GCA-1968 banned interstate sales, and long guns/shotguns were banned by DC so they could not be bought by a resident going into VA. Submachine guns is where they go full retard, because as you stated only certain NFA licensees were selling them]

Even from GCA 1968 to FOPA 1986, you could buy long guns in contiguous states. Royster may also have lived in VA or had a fake VA ID or license, as well.

A MAC-10 carbine qualifies as a long gun, though it turns back compact by taking the stock off, and as we discussed they were pretty easy to convert to full auto. Ditto a number of other inexpensive semi auto "carbine versions" of SMGs.

[cstone]

If your interest is in DC crime in the late 80s and parts of the 90s, I have some anecdotal information based on personal experience. Getting a fake ID and using it to commit any number of crimes with the correct amount of cash has never been a problem in this country. About half of the guns recovered in DC during that time frame came from VA and MD. Most people living in one of the three jurisdictions had family living in the other two jurisdictions. Baltimore is just 40 minutes up the road from DC and Richmond is 90 miles south. Moving anything smaller than a tank into or out of DC is not much of a problem.

Some interesting reading on the subject.

http://wamu.org/crack_the_drug_that_consumed_the_nations_capital

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/recovered-guns-form-a-sea-of-steel-from-the-district-to-prince-georges-county/2013/05/28/656b0386-a76a-11e2-8302-3c7e0ea97057_story.html