Man dies after being hit by bullet at Pike National [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

hollohas

07-04-2015, 19:36

At rainbow falls, right next to the south site. They say it was a stray bullet.

http://m.gazette.com/man-dies-after-being-hit-by-bullet-at-pike-national-forest-campsite/article/1554995

Based on this map from 9 news, looks like to the north, over the hill from the south site.

http://cdn.tegna-tv.com/-mm-/657b29df1c0c95b9ec12d21802c027d456f081d0/c=2-0-1598-1200&r=x483&c=640x480/local/-/media/2015/07/04/KUSA/KUSA/635716377406501687-Rainbow-Falls-Park.jpg.JPG

theGinsue

07-04-2015, 20:06

Very tragic & my prayers are with this mans family, but we all know this will be justification to shut down the South Site, and possibly a lot more of Pike Nat. Forest.

TEAMRICO

07-04-2015, 21:07

That's seems to be a bit far away.
Now I'm reconsidering my trip out there tomorrow. Fuuuuuuuuck.

mtnrider

07-04-2015, 21:36

Prayers to the family. Unfortunately this will be the end of shooting in the National Forest just wait.

TheGrey

07-04-2015, 21:39

God. This is so sad. His poor family! :(

Hound

07-04-2015, 22:18

Never know when your time is up. Sad. I hope the family is being taken care of. I also hope this is not used as an excuse to shut down more forest shooting areas.

Stevensje

07-04-2015, 22:33

Jim B

07-04-2015, 23:20

Holiday weekends sure bring out the a-holes.[facepalm]

Gman

07-05-2015, 00:02

Sad.

Skip

07-05-2015, 08:06

Very tragic & my prayers are with this mans family, but we all know this will be justification to shut down the South Site, and possibly a lot more of Pike Nat. Forest.

This.

Odds are good we'll never know who fired the round or from where.

Aloha_Shooter

07-05-2015, 08:29

Know your target and what's beyond. A tragic way to remember the Fourth that will haunt his family for years to come.

MarkCO

07-05-2015, 08:45

How sad! People really need to use great judgement when pulling the trigger. Always have a backstop for the projectile! Even when hunting, no Pully trigger if you can see sky through the scope and animal.

Been saying this for years. But go check YouTube and you will find scores of people breaking the 4 common sense gun laws. In fact their are "matches" being run in Colorado that do not follow the 4 fundamental gun laws.

StagLefty

07-05-2015, 11:19

Most common answer to range safety rules is "I've been shooting for years,I know what I'doing" and then have an AD !!

alan0269

07-05-2015, 11:56

This really sucks for this man's friends and family. Prayers going out for them all.

How sad! People really need to use great judgement when pulling the trigger. Always have a backstop for the projectile! Even when hunting, no Pully trigger if you can see sky through the scope and animal.

Also, remember to keep your intended target as close to the backstop as possible to minimize ricochets off the ground and bullets deflecting off the target. If your backstop isn't large enough to cover your target (and significantly more), don't pull the trigger.

59397

def90

07-05-2015, 16:42

There were the two guys in Boulder at the Left Hand Canyon spot a few years ago that shot each other or something like that..

Circuits

07-05-2015, 19:21

I'm inclined to think it was 'tards shooting in the air to celebrate 'murka day.

RonMexico

07-05-2015, 19:37

Sad story and what are the odds, crazy. I enjoyed that location but it looks like I will have to find a new spot in the future.

BladesNBarrels

07-06-2015, 08:55

CBS4 News reporter at the campground is standing in front of a sign that says shooting is restricted and to review the map.
At the same time he says "Shooting is banned in Pike National Forest"
Not quite sure what that all meant.
The camper they interviewed says there was "target shooting" going on all around them.

Aloha_Shooter

07-06-2015, 11:54

The camper they interviewed says there was "target shooting" going on all around them.

Wait -- they heard shooting ALL AROUND them and didn't think they should get out of there? I still place primary blame on the shooter if they were negligent in not shooting into a backstop but WTH ...

SuperiorDG

07-06-2015, 12:14

So where is the South Site relative to this shooting?

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/f5165edfa19bcf273643df7b3770f5690bca06dd/r=x404&c=534x401/http/cdn.tegna-tv.com/-mm-/800d53d1eb190ee35727b88cfe4c4c511f3cc517/c=37-0-860-619/local/-/media/2015/07/06/KUSA/KUSA/635717832085346406-Area-Map-Of-Rainbow-Falls.JPG

TEAMRICO

07-06-2015, 14:20

More to the west of 67.
I think you may have the entrance showing but not sure.
You have to be firing to the EAST to hit that area. Lanes and backstops are orientated North and West.
That means you would be shooting towards vehicles entering the site.

theGinsue

07-06-2015, 21:13

On the map SuperiorDG posted, the trail marked 343 is the "road" into the South Site. Roughly at the 3 of 343.C, there is a place to shoot that has the possibility of being the offending shooters location - if, BIG IF, the shooter fired over the berm/ridge, a round COULD have travelled over the road & into the area where there were campers. That's quite a distance, but possible.

This first pic pans out enough to see the roads to the East of Hwy 67. (The South Site is below the "67" in the middle of the pic. The camper was supposedly somewhere to the North/North-East of the same "67".)
59408

This second pic zooms in. Where you can see 3 cars is the only possible location I could think of where a negligent shooter @ the South Site could have been the cause unless someone was WAY NEGLIGENT from another shooting spot.
59407

I use words like "BIG IF" & "WAY NEGLIGENT", which play down the possibility the shot came from the South Site, but we've all seen shooters this irresponsible out there.

hatidua

07-06-2015, 21:58

This is tragic no matter which way it's sliced, I feel for the family of the deceased.

Wulf202

07-07-2015, 05:26

For those that dont frequent arf. It was an arf members uncle. Threads in htf and gd

SuperiorDG

07-07-2015, 06:13

Joe_K

07-07-2015, 06:16

So the deceased was the uncle of an Arfcom's member?

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Wulf202

07-07-2015, 06:40

So the deceased was the uncle of an Arfcom's member?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
Yes. Sorry for not being clear. Shooter still unknown

newracer

07-07-2015, 09:19

From ARF

Friday July 3rd while out camping with his oldest daughter, His 3 Grand kids and his Son in law my Uncle was killed while sitting around the camp fire after dinner.

He was killed by some careless assholes falling bullet. It entered the top of his left shoulder and traveled through his heart killing him within a minute.

My cousin preformed CPR on her own Father for over 30 minutes while driving out from the camp site to where they meet the ambulance.

The entire family has been struck by this. My uncle was the gentlest, caring, loving Men I ever knew. His faith was absolute and I know he is in a better place,

But we are left to pick up the pieces and try to make sense of this whole mess.

http://kdvr.com/2015/07/05/man-shot-and-killed-while-camping-at-rainbow-falls/

Police have been working their tails off to find the guy responsible but have not confirmed anything yet. They did confiscate many rifles from campers in the area.

DenverGP

07-07-2015, 11:10

One of the comments from the relative made it sound like the bullet was travelling pretty much vertically (entered down thru the top of the shoulder while the victim was sitting upright in a chair. Also that no one had heard a shot for 10-15 min before the victim was hit.

Jim B

07-07-2015, 11:23

Would a bullet shot (more or less) straight up be able to enter the body with enough force to reach the heart? [Dunno]

Aloha_Shooter

07-07-2015, 11:25

Would a bullet shot (more or less) straight up be able to enter the body with enough force to reach the heart? [Dunno]

Basic physics. The bullet coming down has nearly as much energy as it had going up. Shoulder to heart, you're talking 12-18 inches of penetration? Yeah, a high power rifle can achieve that.

newracer

07-07-2015, 12:00

Close to straight up? No. At and angle where it maintains velocity? Yes.

00tec

07-07-2015, 12:27

Victim's family indicated it was a near vertical entry near the shoulder, down to his heart and lung. He was sitting straight up in a chair.

hollohas

07-07-2015, 12:27

Basic physics. The bullet coming down has nearly as much energy as it had going up. Shoulder to heart, you're talking 12-18 inches of penetration? Yeah, a high power rifle can achieve that.
Nope. It is basic physics but it's not that simple. A bullet coming down from straight up only has as much velocity/energy as gravity can give it and that actually maxes out at the point that the drag force overcomes the gravitational force...ie, terminal velocity. Which at that elevation, for a 180g, 30 cal bullet is somewhere close to 300 ft/s or 36ft-lbs if I did my math right...Give or take depending on the bullet shape and air temperature.

That bullet did not come straight down. But the likely hood that it got fired STRAIGHT up are slim to none. That bullet must have had an angle to it. He may have been sitting straight up and the entry may have been on the top of his shoulder, but I doubt the entry was truly straight down.

It's more likely the bullet entered at an angle and then changed direction. That's my guess but I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so...

Only the autopsy will be able to confirm anything.

Wulf202

07-07-2015, 12:38

Really depends on which shoulder too

68Charger

07-07-2015, 12:42

Basic physics. The bullet coming down has nearly as much energy as it had going up. Shoulder to heart, you're talking 12-18 inches of penetration? Yeah, a high power rifle can achieve that.

Two words: Terminal velocity
Also part of basic physics... now if at an angle from a long distance away, it can retain velocity...

http://forensicoutreach.com/the-falling-bullet-myths-legends-and-terminal-velocity/

Raining cases: facts or fiction?

Of the millions of rounds fired into the sky by trigger-happy celebrants, most land innocently in empty land. Fortunately, the impact of a falling bullet is much less than that of one fired directly at a target. Major General Julian Hatch, a U.S. Army firearms expert, did extensive testing on ballistics and falling projectiles in the 20’s. He calculated that .30 caliber rounds will reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) on descent, and determined that, while most bullets will leave a small dent in the ground when they land, that same bullet travelling between 200 to 330 feet per second can still penetrate human skin. The experience of many hospitalized and killed innocents validate his conclusions.
The popular scientists on the TV show, Mythbusters experimented with the premise that “Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.”
They found that a bullet fired straight up (an almost impossible achievement for a human), will tumble on its return trip and falls at a slower rate due to terminal velocity. In addition, they found that a bullet in this circumstance is therefore less lethal on impact. However, they also discovered that a bullet fired at a non-vertical angle will be able to maintain its speed enough to be very destructive on impact. In determining if the myth was ‘Busted’, ‘Plausible’ or ‘Confirmed’, they proposed that this myth would receive all three ratings at the same time.

Still a tragic, senseless loss of life that could have been prevented by basic firearms safety. Prayers to the family for their loss.

hollohas

07-07-2015, 12:58

Well, 68Charger's post says research shows 300ft/s as the terminal velocity of a 30 cal too so I guess my math was right on the money.

MarkCO

07-07-2015, 13:04

Would a bullet shot (more or less) straight up be able to enter the body with enough force to reach the heart? [Dunno]

No, Terminal velocity is about 180mph, or about 285 fps. A bullet shot straight up, w.r.t. the ground will go to zero at the peak and then not exceed TV in free fall. The threshold to penetrate flesh is about 230 fps. A bullet at TV will penetrate from 0-2 inches of flesh depending on the profile at impact and the actual area of impact (fat, muscle, bone, etc.) I have performed several virtual autopsies in gunshot cases using energy levels to determine entry angle and velocity. Something does not add up. It might be the assumptions of those who have stated what occurred. A person lost their life, and I hope the answers are found, but lay person speculation is often inaccurate.

A .223 maintains potentially lethal energy to about 1.4 miles, a .308 to about 4 miles. Depending on trajectory, there are some occurrences where ballistics calculations will show an inflection in velocity making it seem like the bullet is accelerating downward over TV. However, the models do not account for lack of spin stabilization and therefore tumbling, which we know does occur.

SuperiorDG

07-07-2015, 14:12

If the bullet did come from straight up I don't see how the police would not have ruled out intention.

hollohas

07-07-2015, 14:54

Martin was killed by what the Douglas County Sheriff's Office believes was an "errant" bullet, although the possibility that it was intentional has not been ruled out, spokesman Sgt. Ron Hanavan said Monday during a news conference with Martin's daughters Carlie and Janelle and son-in-law Chris, Carlie's husband.

http://gazette.com/family-of-monument-man-struck-killed-by-bullet-while-camping-wants-honesty-closure/article/1555070

SuperiorDG

07-07-2015, 15:03

http://gazette.com/family-of-monument-man-struck-killed-by-bullet-while-camping-wants-honesty-closure/article/1555070

If it was intentional I'd like to see that dope chart.

Irving

07-07-2015, 15:22

I empathize for this family, especially since they lost a loved one from the actions of a member of the shooting community; however irresponsible that person was.

MarkCO

07-07-2015, 16:22

If it was intentional I'd like to see that dope chart.

IF the bullet was really straight down, that implies the shooter was immediately proximate to the victim which could explain why an intentional act has not been ruled out.

SuperiorDG

07-07-2015, 16:35

IF the bullet was really straight down, that implies the shooter was immediately proximate to the victim which could explain why an intentional act has not been ruled out.

I was thinking that as well. It would have been intentionally stupid act, not necessarily intentionally trying to kill the man, however. This a big IF as you say however.

Mr Spooky

07-07-2015, 18:14

This is exactly why I do so much recon and viewing satellite images (no roads, trails, houses, or campsites in direction of fire) to find find a spot to shoot. I just wish everyone else put in the same effort as I do. When I hear gun shots in the distance I just hope I am not in their path.

Guess we will see what happens to the shooting regs in national forests.

According to this map, there is a shooting closure covering that whole are mentioned in the news. I am going to guess it was some jackass at a near by campsite.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3801897.pdf

kidicarus13

07-07-2015, 20:04

According to this map, there is a shooting closure covering that whole are mentioned in the news.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3801897.pdf

I'm changing my tune from my original pist after reading some articles. I always thought the South site was north of Deckers.

Mr Spooky

07-07-2015, 20:15

Maybe I'm reading the map incorrectly but I don't think the area the shooting occurred near (South site) is showing as closed.

south of deckers pretty much where the large "67" is. That cluster of FS roads is what the news sites are showing as the area.

hollohas

07-07-2015, 21:26

According to that the south site is closed to shooting yet there are people shooting there literally every day and FS and the SO frequents the area without contacting anyone. Hell, I know people who went shooting a number of times following this incident without getting contacted by the SO deputy parked nearby.

HoneyBadger

07-07-2015, 22:33

Edit: Awww Hell, Hollohas covered what I was going to say. I should read the other posts before I respond...

Edit again: And 68Charger. And MarkCO... Damn, we jumped all over him. [beatdeadhorse]

Basic physics. The bullet coming down has nearly as much energy as it had going up. Shoulder to heart, you're talking 12-18 inches of penetration? Yeah, a high power rifle can achieve that.
I just want to point out that a bullet going down would NOT have nearly as much energy as it had going up. Even at shallow angles, gravity is a constant that is continuously pulling the bullet toward the center of the Earth and stealing it's energy. The bullet is propelled upward by the powder at speeds in excess of 3000 fps. The terminal veolcity of a 55gr .223 bullet is a MAXIMUM of about 330 fps in freefall perpendicular to the surface of the earth. It had to have been at an angle <60*. But that's all irrellevant at this point.

colorider

07-07-2015, 23:12

Disclaimer,.. It is a tragedy that somebody was killed by a bullet.
Now, let me bring up a totally hypothetical situation. Not saying it did, but saying it is a possible scenario. Somebody in their camp had a negligent discharge or did the shooting by accident and the man got hit and was killed. Blamed it on a stray bullet falling from the sky. The only people who would have seen this happen are the people at the camp. Their family. Maybe some didn't even see it. Maybe the kids were out playing, or in the campers, or tents. VERY easy to put the blame on a falling bullet and cover their ass.
Again, just thinking about this after reading all the technical data that has been posted. Not placing any blame or stirring a conspiracy theory.
The bullet trajectory during the autopsy should show this. Or maybe it wont. He could have been sitting down. My guess is that they will be investigating this pretty good. See how far the bullet penetrated, angle, location, etc.

mtnrider

07-08-2015, 07:53

^ I've been thinking the same thing.

Special Ed

07-08-2015, 08:47

My money is on some idiot not paying attention to his backstop, or lack thereof. Here's why....

In May I wandered up from Texas to go camping with my radio control hobby buddies in Pike Nat'l Forest. colorider is usually one of those guys but he skipped out on this particular camping trip. Our campsite is .6 miles due north of the shooting range which is 4 miles north of Buffalo Creek on 126. The actual campsite is a straight line due north of the center of the berm.

I was sitting around the campfire and on a couple of occasions heard ricochets go past but as a seasoned shooter, they don't bother me. Then I heard two quick whoosh whoosh go right behind my head (distinctly different sound from a ricochet). That was the sound of unimpeded bullets whizzing by - the sounds of the gun shots came a second later. Since I was carrying, and I was really freaked and pissed that I had almost been shot, two of the calmer heads (one who's a member here) went over to the range to talk to the people. Turns out they were putting objects on top of the berm and shooting at them with an M1. They were at a pause in the shooting at the time our guys were there but the evidence was in plain sight (one guy was even crawling up to the top to place another target for the next round). Anyhoo...our guys explained what the result of their stupidity was and the behavior stopped....even though they denied the allegation.

I don't know if the 30 cal bullet would have entered my head and turned south towards my torso. I don't really care. I do believe that the story that the shot came from somewhere nearby is highly plausible because people who shoot out there can be real idiots. I'd love to have them shut that place down to idiots like that but they can't do that without shutting it down for responsible shooters as well. How do you rectify the situation?

ruthabagah

07-08-2015, 08:55

I was at the south site last friday MORNING fairly early. Bunch of kids showed up in a RAM dually pickup with tons of crap to shoot at.... There was one large screen TV, 2 large plastic barrel and other stuff.... They came, I gave them a long starring look and they turned around.

I spoke with a friend who was there on Sunday and he mentionned that there was a beat up TV in the middle of south site.

Joe_K

07-08-2015, 17:51

It would be awesome to hang out at the S. Site and sell trash bags to the idjits that bring freaking TV'S and crap to shoot up, then make em low crawl and pick up every piece of garbage they and all thier dip shit friends tried to leave behind. Don't ask what I think people who don't shoot into backstops should have to do.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

hollohas

07-09-2015, 11:25

Think they have people lining up for this?
Douglas County offers to test rifles in connection with shooting death of camper (http://kdvr.com/2015/07/09/douglas-county-offers-to-test-rifles-in-connection-with-shooting-death-of-camper/)
“We recognize that there were numerous people shooting in the park … many of whom may be worried the fatal shot could have come from their firearm,” the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office said in a news release.

RCCrawler

07-09-2015, 11:28

kidicarus13

07-09-2015, 11:34

SAnd

07-09-2015, 11:40

I wonder if they know what caliber the bullet is. I think the sheriff would mention that if he is really interested in easing shooters worries.

hollohas

07-09-2015, 11:48

The nephew who has been posting on the other site says it was .223.

I find it interesting that they haven't published the location either, just the vague map. That area is not small. They said it took them 30 mins to get out to the road to meet paramedics so they must have been deep back in rainbow falls.

Jim B

07-09-2015, 11:48

I wonder if they know what caliber the bullet is.

They must, if they're able to confirm whether or not a rifle was/was not the one use to kill the victim.

Jim B

07-09-2015, 11:52

Gee, I can't wait to go dirt bike riding at 717 this fall with all the Fudds running around. [facepalm]

SuperiorDG

07-09-2015, 12:06

I wonder if they know what caliber the bullet is. I think the sheriff would mention that if he is really interested in easing shooters worries.

If anybody goes for this it would better (for the SO) to know who was there and what guns they have. Nice way to record what guns you have and where you shoot.

hollohas

07-09-2015, 12:25

Exactly. If they were really concerned with giving people peace of mind, they'd publicize the caliber. Not that I think anyone will be voluntarily getting their rifles tested, but if anyone does, ruling out every caliber except the one that killed the guy would save them the extra work of "testing". I think what they're trying to do instead is hoping to get a list of PEOPLE who had guns in the area at the time. Wishful thinking by the SO, but worth a shot I guess.

Alhough, I suspect they already have a pretty good list of the people in the area because the SO was posted at the entrance/exit to a Rainbow Falls for the rest of the weekend. There are other ways out besides Hwy 67, but I bet they got one heck of a list just by stopping campers who were on their way home.

hollohas

07-14-2015, 07:59

One person turned in a gun for "testing".

http://gazette.com/sheriffs-office-offer-to-test-guns-used-in-pike-national-forest-yields-little-result/article/1555504

colorider

07-14-2015, 08:53

Kinda strange that they have not said what caliber it was. Sure would help the "investigation". I still think it was shenanigans at their own camp site that caused the death.

MarkCO

07-14-2015, 09:23

^Yep. The longer they do not release the caliber or other info, the more skeptical I become as well.

colorider

07-14-2015, 10:51

^^
I'm am basing my shenanigans theory on the data mentioned before and the trajectory reports from the news/police.
I don't know much about the area. Is it heavily wooded ? Was there camp site in the trees, or pretty open. Could a stray bullet dodge a bunch of trees before hitting the victim?

StagLefty

07-14-2015, 11:43

Irving

07-14-2015, 12:03

Let's not get too cavalier with comments without remembering that this is still a tragedy, but also a local one where people directly affected are part of the shooting community and have a high chance of stumbling across our comments.

BushMasterBoy

07-14-2015, 12:24

Bullet in the campfire maybe? Did they metal detect the fire ashes?

colorider

07-14-2015, 12:26

Absolutely it is a tragedy. I'm not discounting that. I know his family (cousins,nephews) are active on arf.com. I'm just posting my thoughts based on the information provided. Not saying that I'm blaming anybody, just saying based on the information provided, it seems that a bullet falling straight down would not cause the fatal injury described. There are probably facts that the media has wrong, and/or the investigators.

Samurai

07-14-2015, 14:05

Here is an update to the possible sporting regulations their map of designated shooting areas is an absolute joke looks to be about 1% "designated" shooting areas:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=46910

This is tragic and I shoot primarily in Pike West of Sedalia, nowhere near where the event occurred, but I am (with all due respect to the family) a little skeptical myself.

Why is there no further information, I agree with previous posters who did the math on terminal velocity that it may not have occurred exactly as has been reported...the lack of information is only making the case more suspicious. I truly hope they dont shut it down, that would be an absolute shame.

Irving

07-14-2015, 14:07

I hear you, and am on board with where you're going. Just a friendly observation. Sometimes conversations can veer out of hand on-line before we know it.

Danimal

07-14-2015, 18:29

Deleted

Irving

07-14-2015, 18:32

cstone

07-14-2015, 18:36

What do we do as a community of shooters to prevent this? I considered reporting them to the sheriff, but there is no cell signal to make a call even if I wanted to. So I just packed up early and left.

Pack up and leave.

Accidents happen even when professionals are on well supervised ranges. Nothing makes me more anti-social than being among an armed group of strangers who continuously demonstrate they have no respect for their own safety, much less mine.

Jim B

07-14-2015, 18:38

But how do we propagate this idea when you come across people who are not being safe?

Join a private gun club. It's not that expensive and it's 100% worth it.

Joe_K

07-14-2015, 19:04

Yeah, what do you do in that situation? It's WAY too easy for that situation to spin out of control. All it takes is one party pointing a rifle at the other saying, "How do YOU like it?" and the rest would go badly from there. I probably would have left as well.
Just because you don't have cell phone service in a situation like that doesn't mean the clearly intelligent range neighbors have to know that. If after a authoritative and tactful reminder of Firearm Safety rules (whichever set you subscribe to) doesn't get the instant stammering apology, then inform them the authorities are a simple phone call away, if THAT falls on deaf ears- (most of these yahoo's won't be wearing proper PPE...Sooo pun intended)
have your grinning AR-15 toting shooting buddy (never shoot alone) do the fake 911 call routine and then sit back and watch how quickly the scum bunnies "pack up" and leave.

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mtnrider

07-14-2015, 20:35

Join a private gun club. It's not that expensive and it's 100% worth it.

Problem is there are not many private clubs around for starters. And none that I know of that will allow you to shoot steel (which I enjoy very much). I belong to a indoor club but honestly hardly shoot there (probably going to cancel membership). Can't shoot steel, can't shoot steel core ammo (pretty much rules out all 7.62x39), etc. etc. I find myself driving up to the mountains more then I shoot at the club.

Wish we had more options but truth is we don't.

As far as the accident? My spidy senses still think there is more to the story (ie: accident within the camp maybe?) Truth is we will probably never know.

.

BPTactical

07-14-2015, 20:49

I walked over to the kid and told him in a nice friendly kind of way that it was not okay to do that, and that it was dangerous. He looked at me like I was stupid and his father, who just acted annoyed, made a joke out of it. Nothing changed in the way that they were shooting, and I could hear them mocking me through my active ear muffs. Way to teach your kid dude.

.

I would not have been nearly as nice.
Our sport/hobby/pastime or whatever you choose to call it has ZERO room for error, stupidity or ignorance.

Sweep me with a weapon once and your gonna hear about it in a very frank manner.
I've never had somebody sweep me twice.

fitz19d

07-14-2015, 20:50

I know it's not an option, but with the dickweeds above, I wish the S-S-S routine was possible/feasible. Fuck wits like that then make (not have but make) an accident, just impacts us.

TheGrey

07-14-2015, 21:13

Personally, I'm at a loss as to how they're going to find an answer to this very tragic mystery.

I wonder if they're just kind of going through the motions to demonstrate to the family that they're at least trying to give them some closure.

cstone

07-14-2015, 21:38

Sweep me with a weapon once and your gonna hear about it in a very frank manner.
I've never had somebody sweep me twice.

So the hat trick is right out of the question eh? [Coffee]

BPTactical

07-14-2015, 21:40

So the hat trick is right out of the question eh? [Coffee]

Only if you want a Gordie Howe Hat Trick...............eh[Muaha]

Jim B

07-14-2015, 22:39

Problem is there are not many private clubs around for starters.

You only need one. There are a few not too far from you. I've always felt pretty safe (with a few exceptions) at the ones I've belonged to, certainly safer on average than shooting at public ranges. A lot of the time I had the place to myself. Club leadership has always been VERY interested in any unsafe conditions.

brutal

07-14-2015, 23:06

Bullet in the campfire maybe? Did they metal detect the fire ashes?

You can't be serious.

Cartridges fired outside a chamber in free space have almost no energy. You're more likely to get a scrape from the brass.

brutal

07-14-2015, 23:07

Problem is there are not many private clubs around for starters. And none that I know of that will allow you to shoot steel (which I enjoy very much). I belong to a indoor club but honestly hardly shoot there (probably going to cancel membership). Can't shoot steel, can't shoot steel core ammo (pretty much rules out all 7.62x39), etc. etc. I find myself driving up to the mountains more then I shoot at the club.

Wish we had more options but truth is we don't.

As far as the accident? My spidy senses still think there is more to the story (ie: accident within the camp maybe?) Truth is we will probably never know.

.

BLGC allows steel and you can shoot .50CAL if you like out to 600 yds.

We do not recommend tracer ammo unless there's heavy snow cover. :=)

MarkCO

07-15-2015, 05:27

You can shoot steel at CRC and Clear Creek. Heck I even got CRC to buy more steel for general member use. Only time I shoot on public land is during hunting season.

mtnrider

07-15-2015, 09:32

So what and where is BLGC and CRC?

.

mtnrider

07-15-2015, 09:38

You only need one. There are a few not too far from you. I've always felt pretty safe (with a few exceptions) at the ones I've belonged to, certainly safer on average than shooting at public ranges. A lot of the time I had the place to myself. Club leadership has always been VERY interested in any unsafe conditions.

I don't know of one in the Springs area that will let you shoot steel though? Actually other then indoor the only one I know of is Pikes Peak. There is one more (forgot name) but it has a 2 year wait list. Am I missing one?

.

Special Ed

07-15-2015, 09:43

Is it heavily wooded ? Was there camp site in the trees, or pretty open. Could a stray bullet dodge a bunch of trees before hitting the victim?

Andy - the two that nearly got me in May had to fly a little more than a half mile of heavily wooded area over and through trees into a campsite in the trees to get to me. Even though maybe it didn't dodge a bunch of trees, it had to travel through a bunch of trees and certainly wasn't impeded enough to stop it from getting there at a velocity which would have made a mess of things.

Martinjmpr

07-15-2015, 10:48

So what and where is BLGC and CRC?

.

CRC is about 5 miles this side of Kansas. [Sarcasm2]

Seriously, CRC is about 60 miles East of Denver near Bennett. That's the reason I let my membership lapse. Gorgeous facility but holy crap, that drive....[Bang]

Jim B

07-15-2015, 11:29

There is one more (forgot name) but it has a 2 year wait list. Am I missing one?

-Ben Lomond Gun Club
-Pikes Peak Gun Club (I think it's different than Ben Lomond, even though they're located near each other. If I'm mistaken, somone please correct me.)
-Frontier Sportsman's Club
-It's too far (unless you have a reason to go to Canon City on a regular basis) but Royal Gorge Gun Club likely has membership openings.

Jim B

07-15-2015, 11:33

And none that I know of that will allow you to shoot steel...

Giving up shooting steel, in exchange for not getting shot, seems like a good tradeoff to me. [Dunno]

Irving

07-15-2015, 11:36

CRC is about 5 miles this side of Kansas. [Sarcasm2]

Seriously, CRC is about 60 miles East of Denver near Bennett. That's the reason I let my membership lapse. Gorgeous facility but holy crap, that drive....[Bang]

Closer than Pawnee.

mtnrider

07-15-2015, 11:51

Giving up shooting steel, in exchange for not getting shot, seems like a good tradeoff to me. [Dunno]

That's why I go to the mountains. I have some spots that are off the beaten path that have a great back stop and no one else so no worries about getting shot.

mtnrider

07-15-2015, 11:55

-Ben Lomond Gun Club
-Pikes Peak Gun Club (I think it's different than Ben Lomond, even though they're located near each other. If I'm mistaken, somone please correct me.)
-Frontier Sportsman's Club
-It's too far (unless you have a reason to go to Canon City on a regular basis) but Royal Gorge Gun Club likely has membership openings.

Ben Lomond appears to be a bit of a drive from the Springs but possible I guess. Frontier has a 2 year wait list so that leaves us with Pikes Peak and the only option local to the Springs. (for private outdoor)

muddywings

07-15-2015, 12:03

Ben Lomond, near Ramah, is no more of a drive for me from Austin Bluffs/Woodman than heading up to the mountains. I'd rather make that drive out east than up through the mountains and worry about the yahooos...

Joe_K

07-15-2015, 13:02

Wish there was a 1000 yard range across the road from the Cabelas in Lonetree, that'd be tits.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

HoneyBadger

07-15-2015, 13:49

I don't know of one in the Springs area that will let you shoot steel though? Actually other then indoor the only one I know of is Pikes Peak. There is one more (forgot name) but it has a 2 year wait list. Am I missing one?

.
Frontier Sportsman's Club has 2 informal ranges specifically for steel.

Go ahead and get on the wait list YESTERDAY. You'll be glad you did. They quoted me 2 years for waitlist, and I got in the next year.

Jim B

07-15-2015, 13:54

Frontier Sportsman's Club has 2 informal ranges specifically for steel.

You sure about that? IIRC from when I was a member, the informal range was for clay pigeons. Aside from that, I remember them being pretty adamant that the only thing anyone should be shooting is a paper target.

rondog

07-15-2015, 16:08

BLGC is tits! Love that place!

Dlesh123

07-15-2015, 22:15

Frontier Sportsman's Club has 2 informal ranges specifically for steel.

Go ahead and get on the wait list YESTERDAY. You'll be glad you did. They quoted me 2 years for waitlist, and I got in the next year.
Likewise, was quoted two years, I applied late in the year but I got in during the annual renewal period a couple months later. Hanover range is deserted most of the time I go there.. No metallic targets allowed at Falcon, but Hanover does not have that restriction on the 2 Informal ranges. From the rules: No glass or appliances will be used as targets on the informal range.

HoneyBadger

07-15-2015, 22:53

You sure about that? IIRC from when I was a member, the informal range was for clay pigeons. Aside from that, I remember them being pretty adamant that the only thing anyone should be shooting is a paper target.

Yep. I suppose it could have changed recently, but I spent 3 years as a member there. I went to the Falcon range 100+ times and the Hanover range more than 50 times. I was looking to get into a leadership position with the club when I got unexpected orders to CA in January. Shooting steel at the Hanover range was the primary reason I was interested in a membership in the first place. :)

funkymonkey1111

07-16-2015, 13:41

Yep. I suppose it could have changed recently, but I spent 3 years as a member there. I went to the Falcon range 100+ times and the Hanover range more than 50 times. I was looking to get into a leadership position with the club when I got unexpected orders to CA in January. Shooting steel at the Hanover range was the primary reason I was interested in a membership in the first place. :)

been trying to get into frontier for quite a while. don't have the mojo you guys do

Irving

07-16-2015, 13:48

been trying to get into frontier for quite a while. don't have the mojo you guys do

Show some leg.

Tim K

07-16-2015, 14:42

Aloha_Shooter

07-16-2015, 15:37

I was a member of Frontier for a couple of years but just didn't use it enough and when I tried to renew for the third year, I got my payment in late -- the late fee they wanted combined with my minimal use combined to make me drop it. Cheyenne Mountain is more than good enough to meet my needs considering how little get out to shoot these days.

Jim B

07-16-2015, 17:34

The south site is conspicuously empty these days. I was out today doing some load testing and saw exactly two other shooters. I had the run of the place. I've had that happen before, but only on Monday mornings about 8:00AM.
I've had that happen a lot, as long as it wasn't on the weekend. (Haven't been a member there for a few years.) A lot of the time, I'd be on the rifle range and the only other person there was on the pistol range, or vice versa.

Tim K

07-16-2015, 18:21

I'm talking about the public shooting area north of WP, near where that man got shot.

Jim B

07-16-2015, 18:38

I'm talking about the public shooting area north of WP, near where that man got shot.

Ah, sorry. I thought you meant the Fountain/Hanover Frontier range. [Whacko]

hollohas

08-10-2015, 15:07

Bullet DID NOT come straight down confirming what most of us suspected.

http://gazette.com/autopsy-released-for-palmer-lake-camper-who-was-shot-killed/article/1556942

The single bullet struck Martin in the back and traveled diagonally, striking his left lung and aorta, according to a report from the Douglas County Coroner's Office. The bullet was recovered on the right side of his chest.

For some reason I can't find the arfcom thread on this anymore, I was curious if the family member that started it had any updates. Looks like it's been deleted.

fitz19d

08-10-2015, 15:23

Now question still is nearby idiot or member of his party.

def90

08-10-2015, 16:00

The direction it took doesn't matter much (unless this was caused by someone in his own group and they are hiding that fact), someone still fired a round in the forest without knowing what their backstop was or what was behind/beyond their target.

newracer

08-10-2015, 16:04

Threads on ARF

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_20/584938_This_is_not_good__.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1765514__PSA__YOU_ARE_RESPONSIBLE_FOR_EVERY_ROUND_ YOU_FIRE_____Update__Donation_link_added_.html&page=4

hollohas

08-10-2015, 16:05

^Thanks.

O2HeN2

08-10-2015, 17:06

(unless this was caused by someone in his own group and they are hiding that fact)
Unfortunately this is where I'd place my bet. I hope I'm wrong.

O2

cstone

08-10-2015, 17:18

Did anyone, anywhere state the position of the deceased at the time the bullet struck him? Trajectory of the round is relevant to the position of the target and the path of the bullet.

Example: If the deceased was seated and bent forward, the bullet could enter the back and travel downward perpendicular to the ground but appear to be angled based on the forward bend in the torso.

The pathologist performing the autopsy should be able to determine relative distance from firearm to the resting place of the bullet based on the path of the bullet, bullet deformation, and an estimated muzzle velocity for the caliber and weight of the round. It would be an estimate but combined with the position of the body, it would provide investigators a good idea on where to look for the location where the bullet was fired.