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View Full Version : Guns Don't Deter Crime, Study Finds



kidicarus13
07-07-2015, 14:59
Just an FYI. Information is power.

http://news.yahoo.com/guns-dont-deter-crime-study-finds-180710261.html

A high-profile shooting, like the June 17 crime that left dead nine members of a historically black church in Charleston, South Carolina, is typically followed by calls for greater gun control, along with counter arguments that the best way to stop gun crimes is with more guns.



"The one thing that would have at least ameliorated the horrible situation in Charleston would have been that if somebody in that prayer meeting had a conceal carry or there had been either an off-duty policeman or an on-duty policeman, somebody with the legal authority to carry a firearm and could have stopped the shooter," presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said in a Fox News interview on June 19.
A new study, however, throws cold water on the idea that a well-armed populace deters criminals or prevents murders. Instead, higher ownership of guns in a state (http://www.livescience.com/39754-states-with-more-guns-have-more-homicides.html) is linked to more firearm robberies, more firearm assaults and more homicide in general. [5 Milestones in Gun Control History (http://www.livescience.com/26255-milestones-gun-legislation-history.html)]
"We found no support for the hypothesis that owning more guns leads to a drop or a reduction in violent crime," said study researcher Michael Monuteaux, an epidemiologist and professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. "Instead, we found the opposite."
More guns, more gun crime
Numerous studies have found that gun ownership correlates with gun homicide, and homicide by gun is the most common type of homicide in the United States. In 2013, for example, there were 16,121 total homicides in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and 11,208 of those were carried out with a firearm. (Gun suicides (http://www.livescience.com/38605-gun-homicide-suicide-rates-united-states.html) outpace gun homicides by far; in 2013, the CDC recorded 21,175 suicides by firearm, about half of all suicides that year. Contrary to popular belief, suicide is typically an impulsive act (http://www.livescience.com/44517-suicide-prevention-research.html), psychiatrists say. Ninety percent of people who attempt suicide once will not go on to complete a suicide later (http://www.livescience.com/44388-myths-about-suicide-debunked.html), but a suicide attempt using a gun is far more lethal than other methods.)
Monuteaux and his colleagues wanted to test whether increased gun ownership had any effect on gun homicides, overall homicides and violent gun crimes. They chose firearm robbery and assault, because those crimes are likely to be reported and recorded in the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Uniform Crime Report.
Along with that FBI data, the researchers gathered gun ownership rates from surveys in the CDC's Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, an ongoing, nationally representative survey in which participants answered questions about gun ownership in 2001, 2002 and 2004. Using those years and controlling for a slate of demographic factors, from median household income, population density, to age, race and more, the researchers compared crime rates and gun ownership levels state by state.
They found no evidence that states with more households with guns led to timid criminals. In fact, firearm assaults were 6.8 times more common in states with the most guns versus states with the least. Firearm robbery increased with every increase in gun ownership except in the very highest quintile of gun-owning states (the difference in that cluster was not statistically significant). Firearm homicide was 2.8 times more common in states with the most guns versus states with the least. [Private Gun Ownership in the US (Infographic) (http://www.livescience.com/17737-private-gun-ownership-infographic.html)]
The researchers were able to test whether criminals were simply trading out other weapons for guns, at least in the case of homicide. They weren't. Overall homicide rates were just over 2 times higher in the most gun-owning states, meaning that gun ownership correlated with higher rates of all homicides, not just homicide with a gun. The results will be published in a forthcoming issue of the American Journal of Preventive Medicine (http://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(15)00072-0/abstract).
View gallery
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(http://news.yahoo.com/photos/church-shooting-in-charleston-south-carolina-1434602349-slideshow/)Dylann Roof appears via video before a judge, in Charleston, S.C., Friday, June 19, 2015. The 21-yea …

Pinpointing causation
The results do need to be interpreted with caution — this study method proves that more guns are linked to more gun crime and overall homicide, but not that access to guns directly causes this criminal uptick, said study researcher David Hemenway, the director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center.
"This study suggests that it's really hard to find evidence that where there are more guns, there are less crimes, but you can easily find evidence that where there are a lot more guns, there are a lot more gun crimes," Hemenway told Live Science.
It's possible that people stockpile guns in response to higher levels of crime. The researchers tried to tease out whether this was the case by testing whether gun ownership levels were a prerequisite for crime or a response to higher crime levels. Though they still couldn't prove causation, they did find that higher gun ownership levels preceded crime increases, not the other way around.
"It's difficult to imagine how the hypothesis that increased ownership reduces criminal behavior could be valid, given our findings," Monuteaux said.
Other researchers have tried to explore this question in different ways. Boston University researcher Michael Siegel and colleagues found in a 2013 study published in the American Journal of Public Health (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409) that over 30 years, gun ownership levels correlated with firearm homicides, such that the higher the gun ownership rate, the higher the firearm homicide rate.
However, Siegel said, it was possible that when people noticed the gun homicide rate (http://www.livescience.com/27740-gun-laws-deaths-study.html) going up around them, they went out to purchase guns for protection. To see if the idea held water, the researchers repeated the study, but differentiated between the stranger firearm homicide rate and the nonstranger firearm homicide rate.
They found something striking. Firearm ownership was not related to the number of stranger firearm homicides — cases where someone is killed by a stranger.
But when more people owned guns, the nonstranger firearm homicide rate rose — cases where someone is killed by someone they know.
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(http://news.yahoo.com/photos/outfitter-paul-harris-stands-behind-shotgun-display-gun-photo-222914324.html)Outfitter Paul Harris stands behind a shotgun display in the gun library of a new Cabela's store on …

"It wouldn't make sense to argue that people only go out to buy guns if the nonstranger homicide rate goes up, but not if the stranger homicide rate goes up," Siegel told Live Science. The data, he said, points to a picture in which confrontations between families, friends, bosses and acquaintances become lethal in the presence of guns.
"The types of fatalities that occur with nonstrangers are often situations where the presence of a gun makes all the difference in the world," Siegel said. "Having guns available makes the difference between having a fatal confrontation and a nonfatal confrontation."
Lingering questions
Despite the political firestorm over firearms, some questions about guns are settled science, Hemenway said. He's made a side project of surveying active firearm researchers on the literature in an attempt to learn what areas of research have reached a consensus, and which remain open.
What's known? One, the presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide in that home. "That relationship we really know, no doubt about it," Hemenway said.
Second, the research also confirms that more access to guns means more firearm homicides, Siegel added. Research on whether other weapons replace guns when guns are unavailable suggests that they do not: Overall homicide rates, not only gun homicides, creep up when guns are in the picture. A 2014 study published in the journal Injury Prevention (http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/20/6/424.abstract?sid=30a4f9cc-d92f-4a89-812d-087d1404c7b3), for example, found a 0.7 percent increase in overall homicides for every 1 percent increase in household gun ownership. [Fight, Fight, Fight: The History of Human Aggression (http://www.livescience.com/13268-war-history-human-aggression-nuclear-weapons.html)]
The devil, however, is in the details, which often remain unexamined.
"We know so little about gun training, we know so little about gun theft, we know some about self-defensive gun use but not really much," Hemenway said. He and his colleagues are working on studies about accidental gun deaths in children, about who kills police and whom police kill, and they'd like to research gun deaths in the elderly and gun intimidation events, in which a person brandishes a gun to scare another.
Also unclear are what policies work best to lower the number of firearms available, Siegel said. He and his colleagues are tackling that question now.
Another recent study highlighted just how little researchers know. In July 2013, researchers published a paper in the open-access journal PLOS ONE (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0071606), attempting to mathematically model the trade-off between increased gun crimes with gun ownership and gun use for self-protection. Because the available data isn't comprehensive enough, the researchers weren't able to make specific policy recommendations, study researcher Dominik Wodarz of the University of California, Irvine, told Live Science.
"What this really does, this model, is it identifies what parameters are important, which should be measured," Wodarz said. The hope is to motivate future studies on factors like how many people own guns legally versus illegally, how likely someone is to die if there is a shooting, and how many people carry their guns around on a regular basis.
"The model essentially said that reducing the amount of guns would be beneficial with the data we have, but this is not something that we say should inform policy," he said.
How — or if — gun research will inform policy remains an open question. After federally funded research in the 1980s and 1990s began to reach a consensus that firearms in the home were linked to higher chances of violent death in the home, the National Rifle Association (NRA) lobbied successfully for an end to federal funding of firearms research (http://www.livescience.com/26253-government-stifled-gun-research.html). The prohibition had a chilling effect on the field. After the elementary school shooting in Newtown (http://www.livescience.com/25666-mass-shooting-psychology.html), Connecticut, in 2013, President Obama issued an executive order lifting the ban on funding gun research (http://www.livescience.com/26332-scientists-praise-obama-gun-proposals.html), but little has changed in the two years since that order, scientists in the field say. Congress has to earmark the money for such research, and has not made that cash available to the CDC. The National Institute of Justice and National Institutes of Health have limited funding for gun research, but there is very little federal money available, Hemenway said.
Nor do decision makers necessarily care about science-based policy: Hemenway recalls presenting his research to a group of congressional representatives and having one declare that he didn't care what the data had to say.
"One of the bad things the gun lobby has done is they've said, 'it's us or them, and you've got to choose sides,'" Hemenway said. "That makes it so people choose sides, and then they look for confirmatory data instead of trying to see what the world is really like."

TRnCO
07-07-2015, 15:20
I'll bet that without much effort I can find a few studies that state the contrary.

Irving
07-07-2015, 15:25
Without reading the whole thing, I'd say that is likely true, especially for concealed carry. The presence of a gun can't deter crime if no one knows it's there.

vossman
07-07-2015, 15:25
Yes. It probably wouldn't take much effort huh? These stories are so full of shit.

Dave_L
07-07-2015, 15:26
Seatbelts dont deter accidents but we're still forced to wear them.

sellersm
07-07-2015, 15:37
This phrase tells us all we need to know about this article:
some questions about guns are settled science

Pure and unadulterated rhetoric.

Ah Pook
07-07-2015, 15:47
Milk is good for you. Milk is bad for you.

Beef is healthy. Beef will kill you.

Statistics don't lie...

68Charger
07-07-2015, 15:49
classic example of cherry picking data to fit an agenda... and the bold hypocrisy at the end of the article is astounding.

Just one rebuttal to one of her sources, David Hemenway (who is a Harvard professor, same institution that brought you the deliberate obfuscation of Obamacare (scotuscare):
http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2015/05/correcting-the-record-on-david-hemenways-claim-that-academics-support-gun-control/

izzy
07-07-2015, 15:50
%80 of all statistics are made up, true story

GilpinGuy
07-07-2015, 16:15
It's true. Guns don't deter crime. They are inanimate objects. Responsible human beings with guns can stop crimes in progress though.

hurley842002
07-07-2015, 16:29
Interesting "study", fortunately it doesn't apply to me, since I don't carry a gun as a deterrent...

Rucker61
07-07-2015, 16:47
Always state vs state, without comparing urban vs suburban vs rural, and looking at the demographics of those state subdivisions, and who is committing the crimes. If I were a statistics professor, I'd fail the lot of the them. Poli Sci profs give them top marks, though.

Rucker61
07-07-2015, 16:54
True, guns don't deter crime. Neither do laws, or prison, or gun free zones. Guns do however, stop crime, which judiciously applied.

theGinsue
07-07-2015, 17:50
I read this today @ lunch. Definitely agenda driven intent.

Without reading the whole thing, I'd say that is likely true, especially for concealed carry. The presence of a gun can't deter crime if no one knows it's there.


Seatbelts dont deter accidents but we're still forced to wear them.

Agreed.


It's true. Guns don't deter crime. They are inanimate objects. Responsible human beings with guns can stop crimes in progress though.


True, guns don't deter crime. Neither do laws, or prison, or gun free zones. Guns do however, stop crime, which judiciously applied.

Pretty much sums up what I was thinking on the subject. I find it particularly interesting, and believe it shows the anti-gun agenda-based intent of both the study and the article that they don't address how guns in the hands of responsible gun owners (versus criminals) can & do save lives when a crime in already being committed. The sad thing is that most folks won't see beyond the rhetoric and will take both the study and article at face value.

buffalobo
07-07-2015, 17:54
I'll bet that without much effort I can find a few studies that state the contrary.
^^^This.

5 minutes research show Maryland, Illinois and several other states contradict the assertions made in the study.

sent from my electronic ball and chain

SAnd
07-07-2015, 17:57
Without reading the whole thing, I'd say that is likely true, especially for concealed carry. The presence of a gun can't deter crime if no one knows it's there.
They don't have to know that a gun is there. Suspecting that a gun could be there can and often will deter a crime. Mass shootings almost always occur in known gun free zones.

cstone
07-07-2015, 18:10
The presence of a gun increases the occurrence of gun homicides.

Because if there were zero guns present there would obviously be no gun homicides.

The proximity to a level 3 trauma center and time of EMS response to any gunshot wound has an enormous impact on the number of gun homicides. If you are close to a trauma center and EMS is fast, you are much less likely to be a gun homicide.

Of the 11,208 gun homicides recorded in 2013, how many were justified and how many were ruled unjustified? To me it matters. Justified homicides are tragic, however, I support them regardless of the mechanism used to bring them about.

I fully support LE and prosecutors targeting the sale and trafficking of stolen guns as well as straw purchases. This rarely seems to be on anyone's agenda.

I do not see the logic in regulating firearm use and ownership by citizens who have committed no crime, because some criminals choose to use firearms to commit crimes. It would be analogous to strictly regulating privately owned vehicles because bank robbers have been known to use get away cars.

The last study like this I read came to the conclusion that gun ownership is strongly related to gun culture. The researchers could not tell whether the gun culture caused more gun ownership or gun ownership caused an association with gun culture. My response was Duh. The researchers indicated that the public health threat caused by gun related injuries should require more focus on gun culture as a way of dealing with the public health threat. I wished that I was making it up, but it is what it is.

Be safe.

Irving
07-07-2015, 18:17
They don't have to know that a gun is there. Suspecting that a gun could be there can and often will deter a crime. Mass shootings almost always occur in known gun free zones.

That's because gun free zones are almost always in areas of, well... the masses. Eliminating gun free zones over night wouldn't change the fact that public gathering places are target rich environments.

I can easily argue this both ways, but I don't think it would matter because the presences of guns, or not, is likely to be statistically insignificant either way in the grand scheme of crime statistics. Even if every "mass shooting" in history was ended by someone shooting the gunman, the statistics likely wouldn't change because 12 dead isn't much different than 15 dead when it comes to raw statistics, nor agenda driven reporting.

Heck, since most mass shooters end up killing themselves anyway, one could twist the logic around right now to argue that the same gun used to kill all the innocents was ultimately responsible for saving countless other victims as long as the shooter took their own life while there was still ammo available. That article could be titled "Murder gun saves countless lives" and people would forget they ever browsed through the excerpts from the study by breakfast the next morning.

Duman
07-07-2015, 20:03
John Lott has done quite a lot of research on guns and crime. I recommend 'More Guns, Less Crime'

DOC
07-07-2015, 23:12
I bet some of those shot or their families wish there was an authorised or illegal gun there to stop this murderer. But we would have never heard about it in such detail if it was.

68Charger
07-08-2015, 07:37
John Lott has done quite a lot of research on guns and crime. I recommend 'More Guns, Less Crime'

I'd say this article is a direct attempt to refute that very book.

Zundfolge
07-08-2015, 08:59
Here's Lott's first response to this silliness.

http://crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2015/07/evaluating-new-research-firearm-ownership-and-violent-crime-in-the-u-s-an-ecological-study-by-monuteaux-lee-hemenway-mannix-fleegler/

Aloha_Shooter
07-08-2015, 12:57
I remember a Washington ComPost story during the Clinton administration where they were investigating the difference in crime rates between Northern VA, MD, and DC. The reporter asked a bunch of criminals who were caught in DC or MD if they tried to commit their crimes in NoVA (no) and why not. One of the felons told the reporter something along the lines of "you don't want to go over there (VA), they'll shoot your ass over there."

jmg8550
07-08-2015, 14:53
Wouldn't expect anything other than a liberal agenda driven article from Yahoo.com.