View Full Version : New Ar15 owner and Sight frustration
Hello. First post here. I live in Thornton Colorado. A couple months ago I bought my first ar15 a DPMS Oracle. It came with no sights. So I've been through several red dot optics and also bought a gas block front sight and a carry handle with with the rear sight. Anyway I have had a great deal of difficulty sighting it in and have now spent more money on ammo than I did on the gun just trying to sight it in. I do not know what I'm doing. I do not understand MOA or anything like that. I am losing hope and I cannot remember the last time I was so frustrated and discouraged by something. I have reached out to local shops and ranges but have not gotten anything accomplished. I would also like to get flip up sights to use in leu or in addition to my red dot but for some reason the gas block rail sits lower than the receiver rail and I'm not sure what kind of flip up sights to get. I called dpms and they were less than helpful. He said to get ones that are specified for gas block but the ones I see say things like high profile or low profile. I came here in hopes that someone in my area could possibly help me. I don't have a ton of money to spend on the sights but I jut want to know what to get. I also do not understand co witnessing. I am willing to someone for their time. Please understand when offering advice that I am unfamiliar with rifle sighting in general, co witnessing, moa, etc. I am desperate for help. Basically I just want to know what kind of backup sights would be suitable for my rifle and how I can get it sighted in and possibly make work with my red dot.
Thank you
I will attach a photograph of what I have currently. Notice the tall front sight mounted on the gas block. Would I be able to buy a rear flip up sight to put behind my red dot and have it work with my red dot and front sight?
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150720_213905_zpskazksbbr.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150720_213905_zpskazksbbr.jpg.html)
I try to sight in off the irons first. 25 yard zero targets are easy to find online. Fire three round from a rest either bench or prone, using the irons and adjust till the irons are zeroed. Normally takes less than ten rounds.
Once the irons are zeroed, you can adjust the red dot to witness off of your irons if you have a mount that will allow that. Confirm the red dot is zeroed which shouldn't take more than five rounds.
Where do you shoot? Who do you shoot with?
Have you sought out any professional instruction?
What kind of flip up sights would I need since the gas block is lower than the receiver rail/ I am so frustrated with this. I can't afford to shoot too often. I just want a sight setup that I can use. This is ridiculous. And why is it so hard to get info such as what kind of flip up sights I would need. And how I could make them work with the red dot.
May I suggest you contact either of these two businesses:
http://www.bowerstactical.com/
OR
http://www.arktactical.com/
They are both retail establishments that also offer gunsmith services. Take your rifle to them and let them know what you would like to be able to do with the rifle and they will be able to help you.
Trying to diagnose this type of problem over the Internet will increase your level of frustration.
Just my $.02
Be safe.
For a railed gas block, you need a front sight like this: https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=79
You'll want the FFG version. You always need a metal front sight for a gas block. Polymer sights don't handle the heat very well.
For a flip up rear, you'll want something like this: https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1285
Mbus polymer sights are pretty well regarded as a rear BUIS.
When not in use, both sights will be flipped down and out of your field of view.
As for working with the red dot, do you mean co-witness when you flip them up? That will happen by default once you zero both the red dot and the irons at the same distance. 25 meters (25 yards is close enough) would be a good starting distance. If you choose to stick with a fixed front sight, then it will just be in your FOV but will not affect the use of your optic. If you decide to use irons just flip up the rear and use them through your optic (assuming you stick with a non-magnified optic).
Would these flip up sights be suitable to use with my gas block?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TACTICAL-IRON-FLIP-UP-FRONT-REAR-SIGHT-Iron-Rail-MOUNT-Gas-Block-BLACK-223-/371327360821?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5674d5df35
Maybe...
So here's the thing about sights - You get what you pay for. While I am not an advocate for buying the most expensive iron sights available, I am also not a fan of cheap no names. Saving a few bucks isn't worth the frustration of sights that won't stay zeroed or can't take normal abuse.
If your current front sight is gas block height, then just get the Magpul MBUS rear and call it good. Magpul gear is high quality and very competitively priced.
Having recently tried to use a sight I got from here that turned out to be an MBUS knock off, I will second that you'll get what you pay for. My knock off sight couldn't even line up with the factory front sight properly. I personally would not buy the sight you linked to just based on the price alone.
For a railed gas block, you need a front sight like this: https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=79
You'll want the FFG version. You always need a metal front sight for a gas block. Polymer sights don't handle the heat very well.
For a flip up rear, you'll want something like this: https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1285
Mbus polymer sights are pretty well regarded as a rear BUIS.
When not in use, both sights will be flipped down and out of your field of view.
As for working with the red dot, do you mean co-witness when you flip them up? That will happen by default once you zero both the red dot and the irons at the same distance. 25 meters (25 yards is close enough) would be a good starting distance. If you choose to stick with a fixed front sight, then it will just be in your FOV but will not affect the use of your optic. If you decide to use irons just flip up the rear and use them through your optic (assuming you stick with a non-magnified optic).
Finally someone who makes sense. So are you saying that I can keep my front sight and just attach a rear flip up sight and it'll be good to go?
The front Sight I have is a taller sight which is why I bought it. Because of the low sitting gas block.
Finally someone who makes sense. So are you saying that I can keep my front sight and just attach a rear flip up sight and it'll be good to go?
Assuming your current fixed front sight is gas block height and in spec, yes. Who made your front sight?
Assuming your current fixed front sight is gas block height and in spec, yes. Who made your front sight?
My optic sits quite high though I think it would be in the way of the rear sight.
My optic sits quite high though I think it would be in the way of the rear sight.
Based off your pic, it will be fine. Even if it were too close, all you would need to do is move your red dot forward a few notches. Red dots are generally mounted as far forward on the upper receiver as possible.
As for height it looks fine. The irons will either line up in the center of the tube or in the lower 1/3 rd.
May I suggest you contact either of these two businesses:
http://www.bowerstactical.com/
OR
http://www.arktactical.com/
They are both retail establishments that also offer gunsmith services. Take your rifle to them and let them know what you would like to be able to do with the rifle and they will be able to help you.
Trying to diagnose this type of problem over the Internet will increase your level of frustration.
Just my $.02
Be safe.
^This!^ Trying to DIY is fine, unless you're clueless as to what you're doing. There's no shame in seeking help from pros.
I don't need gunsmithing. I just need help with my sights from someone with experience. Sure the gunsmiths will help, but they will charge a hefty price for it.
One more thing. I've been using a friends dads shooting bench which I've returned to him. I'm going to go to 5280 armory and try yet again tosight in my optic. Will they lend me a rest or some sand bags? Also when I try to laser bore sight my rifle, The red dot heavily over powers the mark from the laser making it impossible to try to adjust the red dot
Great-Kazoo
07-21-2015, 01:52
One more thing. I've been using a friends dads shooting bench which I've returned to him. I'm going to go to 5280 armory and try yet again tosight in my optic. Will they lend me a rest or some sand bags? Also when I try to laser bore sight my rifle, The red dot heavily over powers the mark from the laser making it impossible to try to adjust the red dot
Cstone made a suggestion regarding help with the issues you're having. Since you're new to AR's and possibly guns in general. Why not take his advice. Both shops are more than places that take your money. They actually try and steer new or inexperienced shooters like you to the correct product the first time. Explaining why said item is right and showing you how to use it.
There's more info on line regarding AR how to , then you can imagine. Instead of banging your head against a wall, listen to the replies here. . ALSO. remove that red dot. . Get the iron sights dialed in. THEN get the dot to cowitness with them. Until then you're going in circles AND wasting ammo unnecessarily.
IMO I'd go to the shops suggested before 5280
Finally someone who makes sense.
Actually, pretty much everyone who has been giving you advice here has made pretty good sense. Sometimes when you are new to something comprehending that advice can just be difficult.
Anyhow, sometimes talking to someone face to face about your problems might make better sense to you than reading online.
It's a bit of a drive for you but the guys at Bowers Tactical are cool guys and really know their stuff. They pretty much only deal with AR type rifles.
If I wasn't so busy here lately I'd be happy to talk to you in person. I've been playing with the AR platform for more than a quarter century so I'm somewhat familiar with them.
I wouldn't be surprised if Skully has a set of sights for sale...
Great-Kazoo
07-21-2015, 07:01
I wouldn't be surprised if Skully has a set of sights for sale...
With ones choice of color ;)
With ones choice of color ;)
Where's skully?
"...ALSO. remove that red dot. . Get the iron sights dialed in. THEN get the dot to cowitness with them. Until then you're going in circles AND wasting ammo unnecessarily...."
- Great Kazoo
This x 100! If you have fired 10 rounds after an eyeball boresighting and your not on paper, STOP and get help, or double check your work and your sights.
1. The front sight post base should start off flush with the sight housing.
2. Using an A-2/A-4 carry handle:
The rear sights elevation should be set to 200, or 300 or Z. Depending on which carry handle you have, and which zero you subscribe to, 50/200 Meter, 25/300 Meter, or the 36/300 Yard.
3. The rear sights windage should be centered, with an even gap on either side of the aperture.
4. From a stable shooting position i.e. prone, or benchrest/lead sled fire 3-5 rounds at the center of your target.
5. Self spot with a scope or have an instructor or a buddy spot your group.
6. Calculate the distance from the center of your group to your aiming point on your target.
7. Adjust the front sight for elevation (up or down) remember moving the front sight post taller, lowers your impacts, and lowering your front sight post raises your impact.
8. Adjust the rear sight for windage (left or right) left = left, and right = right.
9. Repeat steps 4-8 until the center of your shot group is at the center of what you want to hit on your target.
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Great-Kazoo
07-22-2015, 14:56
7. Adjust the front sight for elevation (up or down) remember moving the front sight post taller, lowers your impacts, and lowering your front sight post raises your impact.
8. Adjust the rear sight for windage (left or right) left = left, and right = right.
9. Repeat steps 4-8 until the center of your shot group is at the center of what you want to hit on your target.
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Everyone does their adj. a little different, achieving the same results. Myself I like to get windage centered then elevation. Once i know POI (Point Of Impact) is on center, that raise or lower sights is another 2 - 3 rds tops, if that.
I won't split hairs with ya on that.
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SideShow Bob
07-22-2015, 19:43
To the O.P.,
First, please don't get all butt hurt. Ah, what the hell go ahead and get all butt hurt, I leave tons of butt hurt in my wake...[ROFL1]
From what I am gathering from your posts, is that you have little or no training and or shooting experience.
If this is true, you need to get with someone willing to walk you through the basics of shooting, such as how to look through and use peep sights, proper shooting techniques, and basic sighting in.
And, have someone who is proficient shoot your rifle to rule out any mechacal issues.
Once you get proficient with iron sights, put your optic on and dial it in.
Great-Kazoo
07-23-2015, 00:38
To the O.P.,
First, please don't get all butt hurt. Ah, what the hell go ahead and get all butt hurt, I leave tons of butt hurt in my wake...[ROFL1]
From what I am gathering from your posts, is that you have little or no training and or shooting experience.
If this is true, you need to get with someone willing to walk you through the basics of shooting, such as how to look through and use peep sights, proper shooting techniques, and basic sighting in.
And, have someone who is proficient shoot your rifle to rule out any mechacal issues.
Once you get proficient with iron sights, put your optic on and dial it in.
Lube Bob, Lube.
To the O.P.,
First, please don't get all butt hurt. Ah, what the hell go ahead and get all butt hurt, I leave tons of butt hurt in my wake...[ROFL1]
From what I am gathering from your posts, is that you have little or no training and or shooting experience.
If this is true, you need to get with someone willing to walk you through the basics of shooting, such as how to look through and use peep sights, proper shooting techniques, and basic sighting in.
And, have someone who is proficient shoot your rifle to rule out any mechacal issues.
Once you get proficient with iron sights, put your optic on and dial it in.
I've been shooting since I was 6 or 7 years old. Only in the last few years I started getting my own guns. This is my first ar15 though and my first time really starting to try to work on sighting. I added a few upgrades to my dpms with the help of my lgs owner. I now have a same plain gas block and flip up sights in addition to my red dot. Also added a quad rail hand guard. I'm going to cherry creek shooting center to try to get the red dot and irons sighted in. Even with all the advice this is so damn frustrating. Hoping to get is taken care of today. Heres my AR as it sits now. I may add a magpul stock and pistol grip. Wish me luck.
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150725_002509_zpsr8wfpgpy.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150725_002509_zpsr8wfpgpy.jpg.html)
Good luck.
I could have that red dot sighted in with two shots. I'd tell you the trick but I'm afraid you might not understand and wouldn't want to confuse you.
It seems your sights and optic will probably co-witness. If you can get one or the other dialed in then it's just a matter of aligning the two to each other when co-witnessed.
....I'm going to cherry creek shooting center to try to get the red dot and irons sighted in.
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150725_002509_zpsr8wfpgpy.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150725_002509_zpsr8wfpgpy.jpg.html)
Say hi when you get there. I will be there all day working. If you need a hand let me know. PM sent.
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SideShow Bob
07-25-2015, 07:19
Wishing you the best to get everything dialed in.
Start off at 25 meters and use this target to get started, then you will be on paper at 100 m.
Take the red dot off, dial in your iron sights at 25 m. This will put you at about 8" high at 100 m. Dial in at that distance, remount your red dot, look through your iron sights holding a good sight picture,and adjust the red dot so that it sits on top of the front sight post (pumpkin on a post). Then take your shots using the red dot. It will be almost exactly on, POA/POI.
http://ohmr.ohio.gov/forms/ohmr2444-b.pdf
SideShow Bob
07-25-2015, 19:20
So,
How'd it go today ?
Great-Kazoo
07-25-2015, 20:05
So,
How'd it go today ?
His RDS batteries died ;)
His RDS batteries died ;)
Or maybe he's still out there trying to get it on paper?
I did get sighted in. All over the center of target. Also used some tulammo for first time and had no issues. Any good AR15 should handle any ammo without issue IMO. One thing I noticed with my BUIS is with it sighted in, the rear sight has to be quite a bit over to the right. I had also noticed this when trying to use a carry handle with rear sight and a gas block front sight. See photograph. Is this bad? How common is this?
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150725_215336_zps8cmp2w82.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150725_215336_zps8cmp2w82.jpg.html)
Can't help you with the sight because I don't know. However, I'm happy to hear you've got it sighted in!
Great-Kazoo
07-25-2015, 23:06
I did get sighted in. All over the center of target. Also used some tulammo for first time and had no issues. Any good AR15 should handle any ammo without issue IMO. One thing I noticed with my BUIS is with it sighted in, the rear sight has to be quite a bit over to the right. I had also noticed this when trying to use a carry handle with rear sight and a gas block front sight. See photograph. Is this bad? How common is this?
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150725_215336_zps8cmp2w82.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150725_215336_zps8cmp2w82.jpg.html)
Not bad, i've seen factory ones another notch to either side. Myself, i would have sighted in using the large aperture. The upper purchased as a complete unit or someone build it?
It could be how your eyes perceive the sights.
It could be improper trigger control.
Or it could be that your gas block is slightly canted to the right causing your rifle to shoot it's groups left of center, which you would explain why your rear sight needs to be slightly to the right.
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I did run into MOLON LABE there. He came up and said.... Hackman? haha. I'm not rally a hackman but I've always really liked Gene Hackman. I was cleaning the rifle and noticed the gas tube has some play that wasn't there before. Must be from changing the gas block. Should be ok? I only fired 160 at the range but all went well. The play is in the part that is visible in the upper receiver. It's not much but definitely some play.
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag273/Dano1987/20150726_031905_zps1v2hpgps.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/Dano1987/media/20150726_031905_zps1v2hpgps.jpg.html)
The gas tube play is normal.
Looks like you did a pretty good job getting it cleaned up. Glad you finally got it sighted in.
[Beer]
You WANT a little play there. You would probably get some asymmetrical wear on the end of the gas tube otherwise.
SideShow Bob
07-26-2015, 10:54
Don't worry about the rear sight, all of mine ( before they were lost in "The Great Floods of 2013 ) were adjusted to the left in varying degrees depending on the manufacturer of the sights, most likely due to being from the dark side, lefty, and when I shoot a righty's rifle I am shooting too far right.
K so I'm going to order the Vortex strikefire online. But I don't understand 1/3 co witness. My Sight Mark co witnesses with the red dot right at the top of the front sight. So when the irons are in the lower 1/3 of the optic how would the red dot not be completely off target?
SideShow Bob
07-27-2015, 19:53
See my previous post,.
You mount the red dot,( after you have satisfactorily sighted the iron sights in ) if you are using a tall mount,for a Lower 1/3 co-witness, turn on your red dot, flip up your iron sights and look through them and get a good sight picture through the irons. Then slowly adjust the dot to sit on top of the front sight post while holding the good sight picture on the irons. This is referred to as a " Pumpkin on a Post ".
Now shoot a few rounds at a target using the dot on the optics. You may need a tiny bit of adjustment, but should be pretty much on target.
and Ta Da, your red dot is sighted in at lower 1/3 co-witness.
Is any of this sage advice and experienced opinions working out for you Hackman? [emoji41]
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DenverGP
07-28-2015, 13:58
K so I'm going to order the Vortex strikefire online. But I don't understand 1/3 co witness. My Sight Mark co witnesses with the red dot right at the top of the front sight. So when the irons are in the lower 1/3 of the optic how would the red dot not be completely off target?
I think the reason this doesn't make sense to you is that you are thinking of the red-dot as if it were a scope with the cross hairs always centered in the scope. With a red dot, once sighted in correctly, the dot will appear on the target and can be anywhere in the red dot circle based on where your eye is. If your eye is lower, the dot will appear lower in the optic. If your eye is higher, the dot will appear higher in the optic. It's part of the magic of the red dot. But in all cases, the dot will be right over the target.
I took the sight mark back and have the vortex strikefire on the way. Was shooting today with iron sights and noticed that with a laser bore sight, the rear iron sight lines up with the laser bore sight with the rear sight right in the center without windage adjustment but then the shots are way left. Basically the shots go several inches to the left of where the bore sighter says they will go. It's a .223 cartridge type laser bore sighter. Used with the bolt open so no pressure from the extractor.
The chamber bore sights work, but due to the tolerance range of .223 Rem & 5.56mm chambers, the device has to be a compromise fit. This results in the laser nor always being centered properly in the barrels bore.
Then again a boresight is only intended to get the rifle, sights, ammo, and trigger puller on a 12"x12" piece of paper. From there one would adjust the sights to wherever the shooter would like his impacts to land at a given distance.
When I'm at the range and not getting the results I would like, or something doesn't look, smell, sound, or feel right, I turn to the following, in Borats voice, Great Success checklist!!!
1. Check myself.
a. Am I applying the fundamentals properly?
b. Is my position stable and cosistent? c. Am I naturally aligned to the target?
d. Do my sights/optic move when, or before the hammer drops. i.e. drifire.
e. Am I able to focus on what I am doing, or am I just dicking the dog.
2. Check my firearm
a. Are the sights/optics installed correctly and torqued to spec?
b. Is there anything loose on the firearm?
c. Is my firearm functioning and clean?
3. Check my ammo.
a. Is it the right caliber?
b. Is it the right bullet weight for my given barrels rifling twist rate, and or shooting application?
c. Is it good ammo?
4. If I cannot determine my own problem myself I turn to one of the following sources for help.
a. Another competent shooter (2 pair of eyes are better than 1)
b. The firearms manual
c. The firearms, or faulty equipments manufacturer.
d. A Gunsmith or armorer.
e. Sell that shit on Gunbroker....JK
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Great-Kazoo
07-30-2015, 08:13
Is any of this sage advice and experienced opinions working out for you Hackman? [emoji41]
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I offered to help the OP out via pm, but he hasn't replied, he's on his own.
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