View Full Version : Another Police Shooting on Video
Looks like a bad shoot on this one...
http://www.ksat.com/news/ksatcom-exclusive-unedited-video-of-fatal-deputy-involved-shooting
kidicarus13
09-01-2015, 21:48
Would have to agree
jhood001
09-01-2015, 21:52
Can't see the suspects left hand in that video. And one of the officers starts backing up when shots are fired. I'm not sure that immediately backing up after firing shots is a natural response when you're killing an unarmed man.
No way to tell if the suspect reached for something with his hidden left hand or not.
But it does look bad.
Singlestack
09-01-2015, 21:59
Well, here goes another ****storm.
Unfortunately the dead person is from my home town, and the family are friends of ours.
Justified or not all the dumbass had to do is get on the ground. He's going to have a hard time winning that argument from the grave. I'm not making a judgement call on the cops. Hard to tell from that far away. But walking around in an aggressive stance with a couple of what appears to my unprofessional eye as white gorilla bluff charges against officers with drawn weapons is not going to end well. Especially when the officers are responding to a domestic violence call where a female has been slashed. The suspect had demonstrated that he was willing and able to be violent with a weapon.
Hopefully the truth comes out and justice is meted out what ever that may be but he wasn't the good guy in my books.
BushMasterBoy
09-02-2015, 00:33
Supposedly there is another video that has not been released yet.
Can't see the suspects left hand in that video. And one of the officers starts backing up when shots are fired. I'm not sure that immediately backing up after firing shots is a natural response when you're killing an unarmed man.
No way to tell if the suspect reached for something with his hidden left hand or not.
But it does look bad.
Yeah, too far to make out exactly what went wrong.
StagLefty
09-02-2015, 11:22
Just heard the 2nd video shows a knife in the hand behind the pole.
buffalobo
09-02-2015, 11:28
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Even if he pulled out a knife, at that distance I don't see how it's reasonable to shoot the guy.
Even if he pulled out a knife, at that distance I don't see how it's reasonable to shoot the guy.
Please research the 21-foot rule.
Please research the 21-foot rule.
I stand corrected.
I think Cold Steel has some YouTube videos based on that as well. They don't say that's what they are doing, but you can see measurements for 21' on the floor while a guy with a sword charges a guy with a gun. LOL.
kidicarus13
09-02-2015, 11:57
I stand corrected.
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
"Unfortunately, some officers and apparently some trainers as well have 'streamlined' the 21-Foot Rule in a way that gravely distorts its meaning and exposes them to highly undesirable legal consequences," Lewinski says. Namely, they have come to believe that the Rule means that a subject brandishing an edged weapon when positioned at any distance less than 21 feet from an officer can justifiably be shot.
For example, an article on the 21-Foot Rule in a highly respected LE magazine states in its opening sentence that "a suspect armed with an edged weapon and within twenty-one feet of a police officer presents a deadly threat." The "common knowledge" that "deadly force against him is justified" has long been "accepted in police and court circles," the article continues.
Statements like that, Lewinski says, "have led officers to believe that no matter what position they're in, even with their gun on target and their finger on the trigger, they are in extreme danger at 21 feet. They believe they don't have a chance of surviving unless they preempt the suspect by shooting.
"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.
"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."
Lewinski believes the misconception of the 21-Foot Rule has become so common that some academies and in-service training programs now are reluctant to include the Rule as part of their edged-weapon defense instruction for fear of non-righteous shootings resulting.
"When you talk about the 21-Foot Rule, you have to understand what it really means when fully articulated correctly in order to judge its value as a law enforcement concept," Lewinski says. "And it does not mean 'less than 21 feet automatically equals shoot.'"
Please research the 21-foot rule.
Every time I tell a panhandler to walks up to me to step back, it totally derails their schpiel.
21 foot rule makes total sense to me. And yeah we can't see from the perspective if the video. We also cannot HEAR what is going on either. The guy may have well been actively and verbally threatening the officers or someone else, IE: "Let me get at the B!7$#, i'm going to kill her with this knife!" That right there could give the officers justification.
Let the Justice system sort it out.
Kid, I agree. In the video, it even looks like at least one officer has a riot shield.
Kraven251
09-02-2015, 12:18
Good shoot, bad shoot, if you are in a position where law enforcement has guns drawn on you, it is still generally best to comply with the knowledge that you will be around to voice your side of the situation.
As for the 21 foot rule, you don't know what someone is going to do. The fact they have already decided to bring a knife to a gun fight indicates they are not thinking rationally, and are at best unpredictable.
from the same article above:
Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.
colorider
09-02-2015, 12:35
Many times I have told a bum, panhandler, punk ass kid, vagrant, tweaker to step the fuck back away from me.
StagLefty
09-02-2015, 13:01
A tape measure is not part of my EDC gear.
A tape measure is not part of my EDC gear.
I just figure twice the length of my....
Car.
HoneyBadger
09-02-2015, 13:45
If we're going to talk about the 21ft rule, then maybe we should ask why the "threat" was in such close proximity to the cops in the first place. If they felt like they were gravely threatened, why weren't they using all that time to back up and get behind physical cover? Maybe there was a lot going on that we don't know about.
As for the 21ft rule, I think the article that Kid quoted nails it:
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.
"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him.
"When you talk about the 21-Foot Rule, you have to understand what it really means when fully articulated correctly in order to judge its value as a law enforcement concept," Lewinski says. "And it does not mean 'less than 21 feet automatically equals shoot.'"
I just figure twice the length of my....
Car.
Wow! You have an unusually short....
car. [Dunno]
In so many of the shooting video's I see the victim seems to stagger or turn and run before dropping. This looks like a double tap and down. The cops are not doing much around the guy once on the ground. It would seem protocol would dictate that the instance he's down to quickly go and disarm him, if he's actually armed. I see after a some time they drag him over onto his back. But that is it, no one is trying to do anything to keep him alive. Seems a little unusual to just watch him die.
Wow! You have an unusually short....
car. [Dunno]
2008 Smart... 10ft 7 inches bumper to bumper..[ROFL1]
HoneyBadger
09-02-2015, 15:28
In so many of the shooting video's I see the victim seems to stagger or turn and run before dropping. This looks like a double tap and down. The cops are not doing much around the guy once on the ground. It would seem protocol would dictate that the instance he's down to quickly go and disarm him, if he's actually armed. I see after a some time they drag him over onto his back. But that is it, no one is trying to do anything to keep him alive. Seems a little unusual to just watch him die.
Yeah, this seems odd to me as well. Once the guy isn't a threat anymore, shouldn't you try to provide him with medical care to the best of your ability? Or is it more the case of the age-old phrase "dead men tell no tales"?
I'll have to watch again, but I thought he made some fake charges before the shooting.
Yeah, this seems odd to me as well. Once the guy isn't a threat anymore, shouldn't you try to provide him with medical care to the best of your ability? Or is it more the case of the age-old phrase "dead men tell no tales"?
I haven't read where the shots entered.
Perhaps he was shot in the face and obviously dead - Kenedyish
I thought the ambulance response time was pretty damn good. Unless maybe it was already in route.
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