View Full Version : Pope says that gun manufacturers can't call themselves Christians
kidicarus13
09-07-2015, 18:19
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/21/us-pope-turin-arms-idUSKBN0P10U220150621
I'll refrain from comment as I don't want to offend any Catholics, but seriously?!
People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian, Pope Francis said on Sunday.
Francis issued his toughest condemnation to date of the weapons industry at a rally of thousands of young people at the end of the first day of his trip to the Italian city of Turin.
"If you trust only men you have lost," he told the young people in a long, rambling talk about war, trust and politics after putting aside his prepared address.
"It makes me think of ... people, managers, businessmen who call themselves Christian and they manufacture weapons. That leads to a bit a distrust, doesn't it?" he said to applause.
He also criticized those who invest in weapons industries, saying "duplicity is the currency of today ... they say one thing and do another."
Francis also built on comments he has made in the past about events during the first and second world wars.
He spoke of the "tragedy of the Shoah," using the Hebrew term for the Holocaust.
"The great powers had the pictures of the railway lines that brought the trains to the concentration camps like Auschwitz to kill Jews, Christians, homosexuals, everybody. Why didn't they bomb (the railway lines)?"
Discussing World War One, he spoke of "the great tragedy of Armenia" but did not use the word "genocide".
Francis sparked a diplomatic row in April calling the massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians 100 years ago "the first genocide of the 20th century," prompting Turkey (http://www.reuters.com/places/turkey) to recall its ambassador to the Vatican.
HBARleatherneck
09-07-2015, 18:29
so he doesnt have armed security? he can go fuck himself. no world leaders take anything he says seriously anyway. I hope nobody else does either. he is a man, nothing more.
I bet the vatican has invested in firearms. i guess they are bad too. every pope I have been alive to hear, has talked bs every chance they get.
hurley842002
09-07-2015, 18:30
Good thing I'm not Catholic, nor do I give a damn what the pope says.
blacklabel
09-07-2015, 18:34
It's too bad such an ignorant man holds such a high position. Then again, most people with that kind of power are rather ignorant.
Rucker61
09-07-2015, 18:56
Well, according to the Southern Baptists who raised me, Catholics can't call themselves Christian.
hurley842002
09-07-2015, 19:01
I guess this means bellavite will be offloading his firearms.......
Because the Catholic Church never laid waste to anyone at the direction of a pope. Hypocrites
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
rock_castle
09-07-2015, 19:03
The man is a Leftist, so the anti-gun view is no surprise. He is also a hypocrite since he is protected by a heavily armed security force. I'm not Catholic, so his opinions mean nothing to me.
My Catholic friends have been ignoring the Pope for years. This will be nothing new for them.
And as someone previously mentioned, Vatican City is reportedly armed to the teeth.
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XC700116
09-07-2015, 19:08
While my Mother is Catholic, I really don't care about the supreme pontiff's thoughts on the subject as they are simply hypocritical.
1. he's protected by the Swiss Guard, packing Sig firearms.
2. In one breath all war is evil, and in the next the Allies should have bombed the railway lines in Europe, and somehow that would have stopped the holocaust?????
3. One of Hitler's first acts was to outlaw private firearms ownership, and we all know how that ended up.
4. His Church had a HUGE hand in protecting and ex-filtrating Nazi war criminals after the war and thereby helping them evade justice.
I just can't abide by someone who's blatantly hypocritical about a subject, telling me what to do about that specific subject.
we are talking about this pope right? http://news.yahoo.com/hitler-youth-past-dogged-pope-benedict-despite-jewish-215603378--abc-news-topstories.html
Joseph Ratzinger had joined the Hitler youth as a 14-year-old and went on to serve in the German military, as six million Jews were sent off to the death camps. Though Benedict was eventually exonerated and even embraced by Jews -- he called the Holocaust a "dark time" in his life -- his German past continued to haunt him
HBARleatherneck
09-07-2015, 19:59
that was the previous pope.
This is apparently the leftist Pope that has been making waves ever since he's been in the chair.
HoneyBadger
09-07-2015, 20:38
Wow, lots of anti-Catholic sentiment here... that is discouraging.
I think we need to understand the context of what he said, and he fact that the media never distorts anything for profit. [Sarcasm2]
Because it is quicker than typing it up myself yet again:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/media-gets-it-mostly-right-on-pope-francis-and-weapons-manufacturers/article/2566812
Pope Francis is no stranger (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11/26/pope-francis-made-some-pretty-big-comments-on-the-global-economy-heres-what-you-need-to-know/) to having his public remarks distorted by the media (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/what-the-media-doesnt-get-about-pope-francis-climate-encyclical/article/2566508), but when the Holy Father implied this weekend that real Christians shouldn't make or sell weapons, the press got it mostly somewhat right.
"There is an element of hypocrisy [for a Christian] to speak of peace and then manufacture weapons," Francis said Sunday, according to three separate Italian-to-English translations obtained by theWashington Examiner's media desk.
The press was predictably quick to react.
"Pope says weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian,"Reuters (http://news.yahoo.com/pope-says-weapons-manufacturers-cant-call-themselves-christian-184139430.html) reported. Several other media outlets, including the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/pope-francis-says-those-in-weapons-industry-cant-call-themselves-christian),Newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Pope-Francis-condemns-arms-industry/2015/05/11/id/643951/), Quartz (http://qz.com/433973/pope-francis-takes-aim-at-the-arms-industry-again/), CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-francis-great-powers-did-nothing-to-prevent-holocaust/), TheBlaze (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/22/pope-francis-delivers-tough-message-about-weapons-manufacturers-who-call-themselves-christian/), the Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/pope-francis-weapons_n_7636416.html) and theDaily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/06/21/pope-weapons-makers-are-not-christians.html), followed suit.
Francis did not outright use the word "hypocritical," and he did not say that it's impossible for a Christian to deal also in weapons. Both points, however, were heavily implied.
Engaging in an imaginary conversation with a Christian who is involved in the weapons business, the pope said, "'No, no Father, I do not manufacture weapons. No, no. I have only invested my savings in the weapons' manufacturers.' Ah! And why? 'Because personal interests are highest.'"
Francis continued, saying in a colloquial manner that the behavior of these men calls into question their ability to be good Christians and to follow Christ's example. These remarks came on the heels of Francis instructing his audience on the need to serve others.
Rather than serving their neighbor, Francis suggested, self-proclaimed Christians who sell and manufacture weapons, which can later be used to fuel conflicts, appear instead to be sacrificing others for their own gain.
The point of his remarks, according to one of the Examiner's sources, was to exhort his audience, which was comprised specifically of children and young people (https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/speeches/2015/june/documents/papa-francesco_20150621_torino-giovani.html), to put their faith in God, and not in man.
I guess manufacturing swords to advance the church's agenda was OK.
Great-Kazoo
09-07-2015, 21:28
Wow, lots of anti-Catholic sentiment here... that is discouraging.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/media-gets-it-mostly-right-on-pope-francis-and-weapons-manufacturers/article/2566812
I don't behold to any man, King, the Catholic Church, or any specific "religion. Does that mean i get a pass?? Not that it really matters, that's what's great about this country. The ability to worship (or not) as one pleases. I disagree with the current CIC, doesn't mean (as the flag burners say) I'm racist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ldb4r7vP0
Zundfolge
09-07-2015, 21:29
Wow, lots of anti-Catholic sentiment here... that is discouraging.
This may be the American in me coming out, but you do realize that people can be anti pope without it meaning we're all anti-Cathoic?
I think we need to understand the context of what he said, and he fact that the media never distorts anything for profit. [Sarcasm2]
Right. The pope didn't say "...weapons manufacturers can't call themselves Christian" in those EXACT words ... but that is basically what he said.
The current pope is a communist and frankly I don't one can be both a communist and a Christian. That said, its not like Catholics vote for the pope so we shouldn't hold a bad pope against Catholics and Catholicism any more than we hold a bad President against Americans or the USA.
At the very least this pope does not believe that the proles should have the right to keep and bear arms (or own property at all for that matter). He's a bad pope (but hey, the Church has survived worse popes ... at least he's not hosting orgies or murdering cardinals or torturing people or selling indulgences).
Just another child of the Reformation here. “One Queen, One Crown No Pope in this Town”
Mixing the theological with the politics of today has been something particularly troublesome for the current Bishop of Rome who is the first Pontiff from South America, Buenos Aires Argentina.
The Swiss Guard use traditional weapons, such as a sword and a halberd, as well as modern weapons such as the SIG P220 and Glock 19 pistols, the Steyr TMP machine pistol and submachine guns like the Heckler & Koch MP5A3. (from Wikipedia)
Saint Barbara/Santa Barbara just got rolled off the bus.
I've come to the conclusion that I don't care what the Pope thinks. To those that do more power to you. Not catholic. Use to be an alcoholic. Still a gunoholic. Have my own beliefs.
I don't want to offend any of our Catholic Brothers here so I will simply say that I could careless what he thinks.
Christian and Proud Gun Owner, Builder and sometimes shooter [Coffee]
Never ceases to amaze me. All these high profile anti gunners have one thing in common, they all most all have armed bodyguards.
Wanna make the playing field even? Take the armed bodyguards and see how fast they cry.....
You guys, you think you have the rights to live and self defense.
Mind your place, underfoot or underground.
The elites are the only people who matter.
Conservative dissent is brewing inside the Vatican (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/conservative-dissent-is-brewing-inside-the-vatican/ar-AAe2NSI)
VATICAN CITY — On a sunny morning earlier this year, a camera crew entered a well-appointed apartment just outside the 9th-century gates of Vatican City. Pristinely dressed in the black robes and scarlet sash of the princes of the Roman Catholic Church, the Wisconsin-born Cardinal Raymond Burke sat in his elaborately upholstered armchair and appeared to issue a warning to Pope Francis.
A staunch conservative and Vatican bureaucrat, Burke had been demoted by the pope a few months earlier, but it did not take the fight out of him. Francis had been backing a more inclusive era, giving space to progressive voices on divorced Catholics as well as gays and lesbians. In front of the camera, Burke said he would “resist” liberal changes — and seemed to caution Francis about the limits of his authority. “One must be very attentive regarding the power of the pope,” Burke told the French news crew.
Papal power, Burke warned, “is not absolute.” He added, “The pope does not have the power to change teaching [or] doctrine.”
Burke’s words belied a growing sense of alarm among strict conservatives, exposing what is fast emerging as a culture war over Francis’s papacy and the powerful hierarchy that governs the Roman Catholic Church.
This month, Francis makes his first trip to the United States at a time when his progressive allies are heralding him as a revolutionary, a man who only last week broadened the power of priests to forgive women who commit what Catholic teachings call the “mortal sin” of abortion during his newly declared “year of mercy” starting in December. On Sunday, he called for “every” Catholic parish in Europe to offer shelter to one refugee family from the thousands of asylum-seekers risking all to escape war-torn Syria and other pockets of conflict and poverty.
Yet as he upends church convention, Francis also is grappling with a conservative backlash to the liberal momentum building inside the church. In more than a dozen interviews, including with seven senior church officials, insiders say the change has left the hierarchy more polarized over the direction of the church than at any point since the great papal reformers of the 1960s.
The conservative rebellion is taking on many guises, in public comments, yes, but also in the rising popularity of conservative Catholic Web sites promoting Francis dissenters; books and promotional materials backed by conservative clerics seeking to counter the liberal trend; and leaks to the news media, aimed at Vatican reformers.
In his recent comments, Burke was also merely stating fact. Despite the vast powers of the pope, church doctrine serves as a kind of constitution. And for liberal reformers, the bruising theological pushback by conservatives is complicating efforts to translate the pope’s transformative style into tangible changes.
“At least we aren’t poisoning each other’s chalices anymore,” said the Rev. Timothy Radcliffe, a liberal British priest and Francis ally appointed to an influential Vatican post in May. Radcliffe said he welcomed open debate, even critical dissent within the church. But he professed himself as being “afraid” of “some of what we’re seeing”
Testing newfound freedom
Rather than stake out clear stances, the pope is more subtly, often implicitly, backing liberal church leaders who are pressing for radical change, while dramatically opening the parameters of the debate over how far reforms can go. For instance, during the opening of a major synod, or meeting, of senior bishops on the family last year, Francis told (http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-calls-synod-speak-boldly-cardinal-defends-current-teachings) those gathered, “Let no one say, ‘This you cannot say.’ ”
Since then, liberals have tested the boundaries of their new freedom, with one Belgian bishop going as far as openly calling for the Catholic Church to formally recognize same-sex couples.
Conservatives counter that in the current climate of rising liberal thought, they have been thrust unfairly into a position in which “defending the real teachings of the church makes you look like an enemy of the pope,” a conservative and senior Vatican official said on the condition of anonymity in order to speak freely.
“We have a serious issue right now, a very alarming situation where Catholic priests and bishops are saying and doing things that are against what the church teaches, talking about same-sex unions, about Communion for those who are living in adultery,” the official said. “And yet the pope does nothing to silence them. So the inference is that this is what the pope wants.”
The contention within
A measure of the church’s long history of intrigue has spilled into the Francis papacy, particularly as the pope has ordered radical overhauls of murky Vatican finances. Under Francis (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pope-francis-launches-reform-of-vatican-bureaucracy-with-cleanup-of-vatican-bank/2013/10/18/28b99ecc-3430-11e3-89db-8002ba99b894_story.html), the top leadership of the Vatican Bank was ousted, as was the all-Italian board of its financial watchdog agency.
One method of pushback has been to give damaging leaks to the Italian news media. Vatican officials are now convinced that the biggest leak to date — of the papal encyclical on the environment in June — was driven by greed (it was sold to the media) rather than vengeance. But other disclosures have targeted key figures in the papal cleanup — including the conservative chosen to lead the pope’s financial reforms, the Australian Cardinal George Pell, who in March was the subject of a leak about his allegedly lavish personal tastes.
More often, dissent unfolds on ideological grounds. Criticism of a sitting pope is hardly unusual — liberal bishops on occasion challenged Benedict. But in an institution cloaked in traditional fealty to the pope, what shocks many is just how public the criticism of Francis has become.
In an open letter to his diocese, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, R.I., wrote: “In trying to accommodate the needs of the age, as Pope Francis suggests, the Church risks the danger of losing its courageous, countercultural, prophetic voice, one that the world needs to hear.” For his part, Burke, the cardinal from Wisconsin, has called the church under Francis “a ship without a rudder.”
Even Pell appeared to undermine him on theological grounds. Commenting on the pope’s call for dramatic action on climate change, Pell told the Financial Times in July, “The church has got no mandate from the Lord to pronounce on scientific matters.”
In conservative circles, the word “confusion” also has become a euphemism for censuring the papacy without mentioning the pope. In one instance, 500 Catholic priests in Britain drafted an open letter this year that cited “much confusion” in “Catholic moral teaching” following the bishops’ conference on the family last year in which Francis threw open the floodgates of debate, resulting in proposed language offering an embraceable, new stance for divorced or gay Catholics.
That language ultimately was watered down in a vote that showed the still-ample power of conservatives. It set up another showdown for next month, when senior church leaders will meet in a follow-up conference that observers predict will turn into another theological slugfest. The pope himself will have the final word on any changes next year.
Conservatives have launched a campaign against a possible policy change that would grant divorced and remarried Catholics the right to take Communion at Mass. Last year, five senior leaders including Burke and the conservative Cardinal Carlo Caffarra of Bologna, Italy, drafted what has become known as “the manifesto” against such a change. In July, a DVD distributed to hundreds of dioceses in Europe and Australia, and backed by conservative Catholic clergy members, made the same point. In it, Burke, who has made similar arguments at a string of Catholic conferences, issued dire warnings of a world in which traditional teachings are ignored.
But this is still the Catholic Church, where hierarchical respect is as much tradition as anything else. Rather than targeting the pope, conservative bishops and cardinals more often take aim at their liberal peers. They include the German Cardinal Walter Kasper (http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/inquiries-and-interviews/detail/articolo/sinodo-famiglia-36644/), who has suggested that he has become a proxy for clergy members who are not brave enough to criticize the pope directly.
Yet conservatives counter that liberals are overstepping their bounds, putting their own spin on the pronouncements of a pope who has been more ambiguous than Kasper and his allies are willing to admit.
“I was born a papist, I have lived as a papist, and I will die a papist,” Caffarra said. “The pope has never said that divorced and remarried Catholics should be able to take Holy Communion, and yet, his words are being twisted to give them false meaning.”
Some of the pope’s allies insist that debate is precisely what Francis wants.
“I think that people are speaking their mind because they feel very strongly and passionately in their position, and I don’t think the Holy Father sees it as a personal attack on him,” said Chicago Archbishop Blase J. Cupich, considered a close ally of the pope. “The Holy Father has opened the possibility for these matters to be discussed openly; he has not predetermined where this is going.”
Read more:
What has Pope Francis actually accomplished? Here’s a look at 7 of his most notable statements. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/09/07/what-has-pope-francis-actually-accomplished-heres-a-look-at-7-of-his-most-notable-actions/)
Pope Francis emphasizes forgiveness for women who have abortions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/01/pope-francis-to-allow-all-priests-to-forgive-women-who-have-had-abortions-and-are-contrite/)
A pope beloved by many secular intellectuals is also passionate about miracles and relics (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-francis-embraces-the-mystical-side-of-the-catholic-church/2015/08/27/78dfe5be-4748-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html)
Pope Francis will visit Central Park during his trip to the U.S. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/09/01/pope-francis-will-visit-central-park-during-his-trip-to-the-u-s/)
Stefano Pitrelli contributed to this report.
68Charger
09-08-2015, 08:18
I have it on a higher authority that the pope can't speak for me... or judge me.
KevDen2005
09-08-2015, 09:01
Because the Catholic Church never laid waste to anyone at the direction of a pope. Hypocrites
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
Im reading a great book on the crusades right now. It's fascinating, if you like that type of history. I'm absolutely amazed at what people did in the name of the pope and what they thought he could grant them
wctriumph
09-08-2015, 10:01
He is just another political talking head that thinks he is more enlightened than others, that he knows more that everyone else and that his opinion is the only one that matters.
I can't stand self important leaders in any occupation. Or the fools that follow them.
ANADRILL
09-08-2015, 15:03
This pope is anti-god...
Fentonite
09-08-2015, 15:46
We ate lunch at a little Mexican dive restaurant the other day. The ceiling had a poster of the pope, surrounded by posters of pin-up girls. Not sure what to make of it, but I'm sure there's a witty caption here somewhere.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz339/fentonite/1DF6CD92-F3ED-4345-A3DA-4BA22ED06CC1.jpg (http://s841.photobucket.com/user/fentonite/media/1DF6CD92-F3ED-4345-A3DA-4BA22ED06CC1.jpg.html)
I have it on a higher authority that the pope can't speak for me... or judge me.I totally get where you're coming from, because the good book says so.
hollohas
09-08-2015, 16:40
I totally get where you're coming from, because the good book says so.
Yup.
Great-Kazoo
09-08-2015, 16:44
Im reading a great book on the crusades right now. It's fascinating, if you like that type of history. I'm absolutely amazed at what people did in the name of the pope and what they thought he could grant them
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.3Koi3s3HPzXKFzgXt0yNiw&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
BPTactical
09-08-2015, 17:24
Coming from the organization that made pedophilia an institution.......
I'll get right to disarming in the name of the Poop.....Riiiiiight!
jhood001
09-08-2015, 18:16
I have a Rosary hanging from my rear view mirror in my Suburban. I'm not Catholic, but it came with the vehicle when I bought it. I thought that it was nice so I left it. It reminds me to be kind and considerate when I'm out and about.
I always have a handgun in my truck.
If I drive more than an hour in any direction, I have an AR with 240 rounds in the vehicle.
I don't hurt anyone. I try to help others whenever I can. As often as I can.
This is an example of my beliefs mixed with what I feel I need to do in this world in order to get through it and help others along the way.
Nobody has any business telling me that its wrong. Especially a dude who wears silly hats and abstains from the single greatest activity that exists: Sex.
HBARleatherneck
09-08-2015, 19:59
Especially a dude who abstains from the single greatest activity that exists: Sex.
is that something new?
jhood001
09-08-2015, 21:10
is that something new?
For me, you, or the papacy? I don't understand your question.
HBARleatherneck
09-08-2015, 21:28
it was crude humor poking fun at the dynamic of priests and boys. it was inappropiate, but so is doing that sort of thing.
HoneyBadger
09-08-2015, 22:27
it was inappropiate, but so is doing that sort of thing.
So that justifies your actions? Because someone else did something inappropriate, you can too?
Legitimate question, but don't take it too seriously.
Great-Kazoo
09-08-2015, 23:22
So that justifies your actions? Because someone else did something inappropriate, you can too?
Legitimate question, but don't take it too seriously.
You're wound too tight on this topic, as you missed the sarcasm. And what he was actually saying.
HBARleatherneck
09-09-2015, 07:12
So that justifies your actions? Because someone else did something inappropriate, you can too?
Legitimate question, but don't take it too seriously.
I dont have to justify myself for ripping famous people. If you put yourself in the spotlight be ready for people to watch and comment on your every move. I laugh you would even say this. All anyone on this forum does is rip politicians, cops, internet heros, movie stars, people who screw up, etc. Priest and popes are nobody special, just people who decided to get paid to be religious leaders. nothing more. and if they step out of line, they need to be ripped. if they open their suck hole and try to act relevant to the rest of humanity who dont think they are some kind of diety, they need to be put in their place.
bellavite1
09-09-2015, 08:45
I guess this means bellavite will be offloading his firearms.......
Nah, probably not... [emoji41]
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hurley842002
09-09-2015, 10:00
Nah, probably not... [emoji41]
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LOL
HoneyBadger
09-09-2015, 10:03
Priest and popes are nobody special, just people who decided to get paid to be religious leaders. nothing more.
Your gross understanding of one's motivation to become a Catholic priest explains why your comments don't make sense to me. Oh well. Every comedian needs somebody to make fun of, right?
Wow, this has been a really productive thread.... [fail]
ETA:
I get that a lot of people don't respect the pope... That's understandable. If you're not Catholic, why would you? Should any public figure be subject to public scrutiny? Absolutely.
What bothers me is the level of painfully ignorant comments about the matter. Everyone is so quick to point out the hypocrisy in what this public figure didn't actually say. Yes, that happens all the time in politics too. Does that make it right? Of course not. In fact, that is the EXACT thing that most of us despise most about the liberal media, right? Mis-reporting, mis-leading, mis-quoting, etc., right? I don't understand why so many people suddenly trust what the media reports on a public figure's words without doing their homework. [LOL] Same thing happened when the "pope said that priests can approve abortions" or whatever it was that MSNBC reported a few weeks ago and when "The pope said that people are evil and climate change is our fault" a few months back. In both of those cases, it turns out that is not even remotely close to what he said or wrote. Another one that might get some attention: Pope Francis has ordered an overhaul of the anullment process to eliminate some of the bureaucracy and administrivia - which I'm sure the media will report as "the pope makes divorce easier" or some such nonsense.
TL;DR version: The media always reports things correctly and never takes things out of context, right? Do your homework before making ignorant comments.
I generally have the impression that most people on this forum are the type who will educate themselves and have an informed opinion before opening their mouths - Please stop proving me wrong.
Are my panties in a bunch right now? Yes, and it makes me especially irritable. [handbags]
You are being irritable today. It's the same exact thing with this thread, as any other thread. In each instance, 90% of the posts are knee jerk jokes with little to no depth. There will usually be one person who is more passionate about the issue and calls everyone else out for making jokes based on misinformation. You're just the guy in this particular thread. It's usually pretty consistent for which poster takes issue with which topic. Don't get too wound up over comments that are topical at best.
hurley842002
09-09-2015, 12:49
Regardless of the topic, or the accuracy of the media, I think the point is, most members on this forum just don't care what the Pope or any other "overly powerful" talking head has to say. President, Pope, Prime minister, King, dictator, it doesn't matter the title, we are fed up with powers that be, speaking for us and telling us how we should live, so expect snide comments.
Regardless of the topic, or the accuracy of the media, I think the point is, most members on this forum just don't care what the Pope or any other "overly powerful" talking head has to say. President, Pope, Prime minister, King, dictator, it doesn't matter the title, we are fed up with powers that be, speaking for us and telling us how we should live, so expect snide comments.
Who the hell are you to tell us what to expect?
DavieD55
09-09-2015, 13:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YWPryeY0Yg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'm not a catholic, but isn't the Vatican protected with armed guards? Oh the irony
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I'm not a catholic, but isn't the Vatican protected with armed guards? Oh the irony
Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
Yes, since its creation during the Roman Empire, but then they were armed with swords. Maybe they can go back to that since firearms are evil....
Yes, since its creation during the Roman Empire, but then they were armed with swords. Maybe they can go back to that since firearms are evil....
Hypocritical leaders
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Great-Kazoo
09-09-2015, 14:05
Regardless of the topic, or the accuracy of the media, I think the point is, most members on this forum just don't care what the Pope or any other "overly powerful" talking head has to say. President, Pope, Prime minister, King, dictator, it doesn't matter the title, we are fed up with powers that be, speaking for us and telling us how we should live, so expect snide comments.
END OF THREAD, LOCK IT DOWN
Who the hell are you to tell us what to expect?
Someones about to cross THAT line. .
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.PGlK1XUKUWwcNh1p6%2f7rsg&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
Did I need a smilie for that post?
hurley842002
09-09-2015, 14:59
Did I need a smilie for that post?
Eh, I'm pretty thick skinned, even if I thought you were serious I probably would have just let it be, but didn't you know, I'm a long lost relative to King Tut, so YES I will tell the members what to expect damnit!!
HoneyBadger
09-09-2015, 15:12
Okay, I'm feeling better now. Sorry everyone for being so prissy eariler.
i consider myself a devout christian and have no issues with catholics or catholicism, but i have never understood to need for a pope. jesus became the high priest, we don't need anyone to intercede for us nor do we need anyone to dictate the will of the holy spirit. that can be done individually through a relationship with jesus. so what do catholics think the pope is special, or needed, or to be overly respected? they get dangerously close to treating him as a pseudo deity. something the bible warns pretty strongly against, even when done with good intentions.
HoneyBadger
09-09-2015, 16:49
i consider myself a devout christian and have no issues with catholics or catholicism, but i have never understood to need for a pope. jesus became the high priest, we don't need anyone to intercede for us nor do we need anyone to dictate the will of the holy spirit. that can be done individually through a relationship with jesus. so what do catholics think the pope is special, or needed, or to be overly respected? they get dangerously close to treating him as a pseudo deity. something the bible warns pretty strongly against, even when done with good intentions.
The pope is not at all a deity, but a spiritual and administrative leader for the organization that is The Catholic Church. If anybody worships the pope, they are misguided at best. As for everything else you said: that's basically the reformation in a nutshell, right?
At the end of the day, I don't think I'll ever understand the animosity between Christians... Aren't all Christians working to achieve the same goals?
hurley842002
09-09-2015, 17:19
At the end of the day, I don't think I'll ever understand the animosity between Christians... Aren't all Christians working to achieve the same goals?
Same goals but with some very different practices. Wife and I are a pretty good example (although neither of us are real close with our religions any longer), as she is/was a devout Catholic, myself a small town Protestant Christian. After some talking we decided against baptizing our boys as babies, and her family freaked out. Different practices, but wife saw it my way on that one.
68Charger
09-09-2015, 17:54
At the end of the day, I don't think I'll ever understand the animosity between Christians... Aren't all Christians working to achieve the same goals?
Behind EVERY denomination of Christianity is a disagreement between Christians. Every time someone disagrees with their church and starts another church, a new denomination is formed... many don't go anywhere, but if they have enough followers, a new denomination is born.
Satan does some of his best work in churches.
ETA: This is one reason I go to a specifically "non-denominational" church, we even pray at the beginning of every service for other churches- I know others don't do the same.
HoneyBadger
09-09-2015, 18:05
Same goals but with some very different practices. Wife and I are a pretty good example (although neither of us are real close with our religions any longer), as she is/was a devout Catholic, myself a small town Protestant Christian. After some talking we decided against baptizing our boys as babies, and her family freaked out. Different practices, but wife saw it my way on that one.
Why would they freak out? A Christian baptism is a Christian baptism as for as Catholics are concerned.
Behind EVERY denomination of Christianity is a disagreement between Christians. Every time someone disagrees with their church and starts another church, a new denomination is formed... many don't go anywhere, but if they have enough followers, a new denomination is born.
Satan does some of his best work in churches. I'm sure this is true. Look at the Westborough Baptist Church.
ETA: This is one reason I go to a specifically "non-denominational" church, we even pray at the beginning of every service for other churches- I know others don't do the same.
The Catholic mass has a specific portion of the mass where specific intentions of the church are prayed for. These usually include praying for the unity of all Christians, among other things like praying for our politicians and civil leadership, praying for the sick, and praying for certain people affected by current events (such as Syrian refugees, or the community of the Charleston church that was shot up, for example).
There are different denominations for the same reason there are different individual businesses within the same industry.
Behind EVERY denomination of Christianity is a disagreement between Christians. Every time someone disagrees with their church and starts another church, a new denomination is formed... many don't go anywhere, but if they have enough followers, a new denomination is born.https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
Great-Kazoo
09-09-2015, 18:15
Why would they freak out? A Christian baptism is a Christian baptism as far as Catholics are concerned.
.
No it's not. However this veers away from the Pope and his beliefs on firearms, etc.
68Charger
09-09-2015, 18:16
The Catholic mass has a specific portion of the mass where specific intentions of the church are prayed for. These usually include praying for the unity of all Christians, among other things like praying for our politicians and civil leadership, praying for the sick, and praying for certain people affected by current events (such as Syrian refugees, or the community of the Charleston church that was shot up, for example).
Glad to hear that, I wish that more churches would do that- but also my belief is that free will trumps prayer. God -WON'T- change a person's will. So if there are people that hold hate towards other Christians, or non-Christians (another belief we incorporate into the beginning of every service), then God can't change their will directly- just try to influence it.
The moment that Christianity made complete sense to me was when I learned we are in a world at war (a spiritual war), and that free will is not something either side can/will compromise directly.
68Charger
09-09-2015, 18:18
There are different denominations for the same reason there are different individual businesses within the same industry.
This is assuming the purpose of a church is profit... otherwise, it's close, but not the same.
There is more to market share than just money, but I'm way out of bounds within this conversation at this point, as I don't belong to a church, and don't care who worships where.
This is assuming the purpose of a church is profit... otherwise, it's close, but not the same.
Profit is not exclusively monetary.
Can profit not be the satisfaction of helping someone find/embrace their spirituality?
Maybe not apples to apples, but not far off the mark, as you said.
via tapatalk
68Charger
09-09-2015, 18:32
There is more to market share than just money, but I'm way out of bounds within this conversation at this point, as I don't belong to a church, and don't care who worships where.
Agreed- which is why I said it's close... and your opinion still matters even if you don't "belong" to a church...
Christianity is supposed to be about a relationship, not about being owned/beholden to an organization. (I'm twisting words here- but you get the idea)
The point is that despite any situation you're in, we would still pray for you to be blessed... and since the spiritual world is all about authority, then the closer someone is to your situation that prays, the more likely it is that you'll receive it.
My beliefs are both complicated and simple at the same time.
68Charger
09-09-2015, 18:39
Profit is not exclusively monetary.
Can profit not be the satisfaction of helping someone find/embrace their spirituality?
Maybe not apples to apples, but not far off the mark, as you said.
via tapatalk
Well said- I'd say that as long as someone takes up spiritual arms against evil, then we've gained (spiritual) ground.
If someone gives themselves to Christ, then that's another soul that's saved... regardless of denomination, it's better than apathy.
The pope is not at all a deity, but a spiritual and administrative leader for the organization that is The Catholic Church. If anybody worships the pope, they are misguided at best. As for everything else you said: that's basically the reformation in a nutshell, right?
At the end of the day, I don't think I'll ever understand the animosity between Christians... Aren't all Christians working to achieve the same goals?
oh i agree he isn't a deity and i agree most catholics would say the same, but the PRACTICE makes it seem like people do in fact revere him as that, or at the very least an intermediary between them and God, and that simply isn't needed. having a figurehead with that much power and clout, is, in my opinion, dangerous and counter to what the bible teaches. i don't think its evil or sinful or any of that nonsense, but not biblically accurate or appropriate. its really the one thing my catholic friends and i don't see eye to eye on. which is fine.
As for everything else you said: that's basically the reformation in a nutshell, right?Incorrect.
Luke 23:44-46
44 It was now about [p (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB#fen-NASB-25980p)]the sixth hour, and darkness [q (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB#fen-NASB-25980q)]fell over the whole land until [r (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB#fen-NASB-25980r)]the ninth hour, 45 [s (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB#fen-NASB-25981s)]because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn [t (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023&version=NASB#fen-NASB-25981t)]in two. 46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last.
The veil being torn in two meant that we sinners no longer had to go to God through a mediator (i.e. priest). Christ's sacrifice made it unnecessary.
HoneyBadger
09-10-2015, 08:47
Cool move, Gman. Last time there was a religious debate, I took it to PMs with you and brought you a detailed and well-reasoned argument with many sources and much documentation and this was your reply:
We are not going to convince one another any differently than we already believe. Faith is a personal decision. I'm not going to debate it on the forums or via PMs. All you need is the Bible
Change your mind? LOL
[Flower]
I posted scripture that slightly pre-dates the Protestant Reformation. Why, are you wanting to debate scripture?
What I don't try to do is take a public conversation private or vice versa. I think that's a weaselly tactic for those with weak arguments that can't stand in the light of public discourse.
And that will wrap up this edition of The People's Court.
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