View Full Version : Edgewater armed robbery - what would you do?
Fentonite
10-07-2015, 15:16
This is copied from an Edgewater Police news release:
On October 4, 2015 at about 2:10 PM Edgewater Officers received a report of a robbery that had just occurred at the Fast Cash Pawn Store, 2551 Sheridan Blvd. Officers arrived on scene and contacted four employees and six customers of the store, although the suspects had fled the area shortly before officers arrived. The robbers, a black female, and three black males, entered the store each carrying a semi-automatic handgun. The gunmen were all wearing ski masks as they entered the store, and they ordered both the employees and customers to lie face down on the floor. The gunmen patted down and searched each person, and stole cash from both the customers and employees. The robbers took over $14,000 in cash, $27,000 in jewelry and four assault rifles, and fled in a 2004 Silver Pontiac 4 Door Grand Prix.
That would be a crappy situation. Very close quarters, minimal cover, bad odds. Would you comply and lie down, knowing they'd find your CC? Would you engage, (especially if you only carry a 6-round pocket pistol)? Lots of room for discussion, I'm curious to hear your ideas. As this happened a couple blocks from my house, it's got me thinking.
I'd shoot em. Especially if they're stealing guns-I may go down, but I couldn't let people take guns like that knowing what they're going to be used for.
That's a pretty good haul. I don't even think they'd get that much if they robbed a bank. As far as what I'd do, four people with pistols, I'd let them take my CCW and anything else. Sounds like a recipe to get shot, none of my possessions are worth that. Wonder if the stores insurance would cover my loss though or my insurance for that matter.
2nd guess myself forever?
The stores crap isn't worth my life so let 'm have it, but what's to stop the thugs from locking the doors and killing everyone inside when you're face down on the floor? It's happened before. I'd sure feel better with 15 as opposed to my normal 6 in that situation. Something like that, it's just touch-and-go.
Depends if they caught me off guard or not. If so, probably lay down with everyone else.
If Obama had a robbery crew, it would look like...
Even with a G17 with a full mag and one in the pipe, you've got 4 perps ready to fire, compared to yourself, likely slightly less ready to fire. Not a good situation.
My CCW holds 7 rounds but I always carry a second with me. Still four on one seems like really bad odds.
Four guns are out and ready to go, crap situation.
In every video I have seen where someone opens fire on armed robbers they scatter and get out as fast as possible. Has anyone seen a video where robbers stand their ground and fire back?
BushMasterBoy
10-07-2015, 16:07
I wonder why only three have masks? Plus in a situation like this on a gun forum, I will keep everybody guessing!
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_28921086/armed-edgewater-robbers-steal-money-jewelry-and-assault?source=infinite-up
This is why shield about Lowest cap I'd go. Depends on position and how quick you are aware. The mass murder for no reason scares me but those are pretty extreme odds. Even 1v1 you never know if they'll go down quick. The biggest thing going is that given the description is possibly fake guns or the whole first bullet flies and they fighting each other to get out.
Four guns are out and ready to go, crap situation.
In every video I have seen where someone opens fire on armed robbers they scatter and get out as fast as possible. Has anyone seen a video where robbers stand their ground and fire back?
I was thinking the same thing. I don't know if they'd stick around long enough to find out you only had 6 rounds. That being said, what a terrible situation to find yourself in.
SideShow Bob
10-07-2015, 16:27
So, since when, are "Assult Rifles" available at pawn shops, let alone our LGS's ?
I must be shopping at the wrong ones.
I couldn't say what I'd do until I was in that situation.
I do think some thug finding a concealed pistol on a good guy would escalate the situation. I doubt they would just take it and add it to their haul without trying to make an example of "the hero".
Rooskibar03
10-07-2015, 16:45
That sounds like a no win situation. Guess I'll start by staying away from Pawn shops in sketchy parts of town. Ironically I used to live down the street in my broke ass younger days and pawned a very nice SLR camera there to pay some bills once.
buffalobo
10-07-2015, 17:04
If you are unarmed, you are a victim.
As hbar said, am going to have to try and hope fighting back throws off the thugs enough to give me a chance or causes them to turn and run.
Bystanders would be my downfall, if I had to hesitate to avoid them, I think it might turn out bad for all.
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I'd do whatever I could to stay safe and be a good witness. If I felt the situation was escalating towards violence, as opposed to a simple robbery, I'd do what I could to take the bastards with me. Nobody is gonna shoot me with my own gun.
Ask them if they shoot USPSA or IDPA?
Ask them if they shoot USPSA or IDPA?
As long as they are all wearing card board brown t-shirts and hold still for several seconds at a time, I don't see the problem.
Only four of them? I'd lay down cover fire as I headed towards the exit.
I'm not taking any chances. Sounds like the situation went down with nobody getting hurt this time. But who's to say they wouldn't order everyone face down on the floor and then walk along and put a bullet in the back of everyone's heads to eliminate any possible witnesses?
That would be a chance I'm not willing to take.
I'd rather take the odds of not taking a fatal shot from one of them as I bolted for the door. Even if I wasn't throwing shots their way as I exited.
ZERO THEORY
10-07-2015, 19:21
I couldn't say what I'd do until I was in that situation.
I do think some thug finding a concealed pistol on a good guy would escalate the situation. I doubt they would just take it and add it to their haul without trying to make an example of "the hero".
My thoughts exactly. A normal "stick 'em up!" robbery where they empty the registers and display cabinets? I wouldn't put people at risk. I'd even lay down on the floor at first. But once people started getting patted down, I'd have to have faith in the violence of action and proficiency in practice.
Four people robbing a pawn shop are 99.9% sure to not have any formal or informal dynamic OR static training. I would bet the house that anyone on this board could put down two of the criminals before the other two could process and react intelligibly. At that point, I think 2 vs 1 with regular, law-abiding, well-versed shooters vs street thugs is a fair shake.
The biggest obstacle is rolling over, drawing, and shooting from a laying position while trying to tally all four targets. You hope that they haven't fanned out around the store, otherwise your odds decrease exponentially.
I imagine a second or two after you fire the first round, they will run out the door while firing blindly behind them. Not a good scenario with a bunch of people proned out on the ground. It would be arm chair quarterbacked for years to come, but there isn't always time to think through 4 different "what-ifs" before action needs to happen.
Bailey Guns
10-07-2015, 20:26
Yeah...too many "what ifs?" and other variables with that number of customers and bad guys to give a real answer. This seems like the type of situation where you'd just have to make the judgment call as the scene played out.
I, too, believe under the right circumstances the 4v1 odds aren't that overwhelming for a well-trained shooter with the proper mindset. I'd say the odds are pretty good the good guy shooter would prevail. On the other hand, I also believe in bad luck, bad timing and unintended consequences...the Murphy's Law thing. You know...your first shot nails the bad guy right thru the heart and he stumbles as he tries to turn and run and, as his hand holding the gun hits the floor, with his finger on the trigger, he unintentionally fires a golden BB that hits you right between the running lights. Stranger things have happened.
ZERO THEORY
10-07-2015, 21:01
As much of a total knob as I think James Yaeger is as a person, I am a huge fan of his approach to training. In particular, the way he does full-contact scenario training with dummy/sim guns might be one of the most valuable and useful training implements I've ever seen. It's one thing to hit the range day after day and get good enough to shoot alphas on the move and make classifications in competition, and whatnot. But when your training involves what amounts to sparring, and you're in an environment that simulates the chaos of conflict, I think you gain a tremendous amount of ability to process and react accordingly to stress.
This is exactly the type of thing I'd like to practice in that environment. Also, video for those unfamiliar with Tactical Response (strong language in video; not for the kids)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeJe1K-Nlzk
I'd go all rambo on their asses and kill every one of them with a bullet between the eyes...
Or most likely I'd go with my gut instinct at the moment. If I could do something I would... If its too risky, well... I have a family to feed and take care of..
Great-Kazoo
10-07-2015, 21:37
Only four of them? I'd lay down cover fire as I headed towards the exit.
I'm not taking any chances. Sounds like the situation went down with nobody getting hurt this time. But who's to say they wouldn't order everyone face down on the floor and then walk along and put a bullet in the back of everyone's heads to eliminate any possible witnesses?
That would be a chance I'm not willing to take.
I'd rather take the odds of not taking a fatal shot from one of them as I bolted for the door. Even if I wasn't throwing shots their way as I exited.
Gonna have to disagree. See reply to next quote
My thoughts exactly. A normal "stick 'em up!" robbery where they empty the registers and display cabinets? I wouldn't put people at risk. I'd even lay down on the floor at first. But once people started getting patted down, I'd have to have faith in the violence of action and proficiency in practice.
Four people robbing a pawn shop are 99.9% sure to not have any formal or informal dynamic OR static training. I would bet the house that anyone on this board could put down two of the criminals before the other two could process and react intelligibly. At that point, I think 2 vs 1 with regular, law-abiding, well-versed shooters vs street thugs is a fair shake.
The biggest obstacle is rolling over, drawing, and shooting from a laying position while trying to tally all four targets. You hope that they haven't fanned out around the store, otherwise your odds decrease exponentially.
AND DISAGREE AGAIN. The BIGGEST OBSTACLE IS the rest of the people in the shop. Rounds start going off can you or Ray, or anyone, GUARANTEE beyond a doubt the other people being robbed are going to remain on the floor during this cluster fuck????
What about the owner, what happens if he starts pumping rounds in to the melee??
Tell you what, anyone survives they will be a witness in court saying you were the first to start shooting. The survivors will take everything in a civil suit. That's after your attorney get his $1-150K from you.
There's 4 fuckin potential shooters who already have guns drawn, shouting commands to get on the floor.
Miss overweight's already hyperventilating, limp wristed larry is about loose his bowels. And all you're thinking of is CAN I DROP THESE FUCKERS. Too many unknowns to have a clean resolution. This isn't the IDPA, 3 gun nationals. It's a robbery. Hope & pray you get out with only your ID and gun taken.
IF you have Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, the means to stop 4 Armed crooks go for it. If not , again, hope for the best
Keep in mind everyone...
The robbers waked in and robbed... And nobody got shot..
Sometimes its better to just let the insurance company pay out instead of dealing with being the winner of the "room temperature challenge". Again.. If you can do something.. GREAT.. 4 armed people making everyone lay down??? Yeah.. Your chances are less than 50/50..
Only time I would 100% do something is if they start shooting/executing.. You might as well go out shooting and hope for the best...
ZERO THEORY
10-07-2015, 22:03
AND DISAGREE AGAIN. The BIGGEST OBSTACLE IS the rest of the people in the shop.
You can take that as read, hence why I put that in the 3rd sentence of the first paragraph. Above all else, that is my first consideration.
And to be more clear, I take them patting people down as too volatile to wait and see. At that point, it's a sure bet that they'll find my weapon. The uncertainty of what they'll do afterwards is akin to a must-fight in my opinion.
I'm not suggesting that a citizen should try some hero stunt like that cop in Point Break. But much to my chagrin, life will put you in no-win scenarios sometimes. Action is sometimes necessary, if not optimal.
Did you ever play "What would I do if I won the lottery?"
This is the opposite of that game.
I've heard that no one wins in a dairy challenge. [Coffee]
Be safe.
Guess I have more internet armchair confidence, 4 head shots with unheard of speed, and still 3 rounds left over if there were any in the getaway car.
I think it would really depend on my position when they enter and whether or not I have a "mental inventory" of all non-combatants.
If I was caught in a bad position, I would likely comply and, if possible, lose the weapon on my person without drawing any attention to myself.
Good Lord willing I'd never find myself in that particular situation. Many variable to take into consideration here (i.e. the level of my situational awareness, how many friendlies in the way, do I have my family with me, etc.). Taking those out of the equation and knowing that I'm on my guard 100% of the time anywhere I go...I do know that assailants look for the path of least resistance. A mentally & physically trained person could get off some accurate hits on multiple targets fast then you just became a game changer for the shitheads. You also are gambling on how dedicated the threats are. Provided they start crapping their pants the minute hot lead is slung their way and leave a trail of fluids as they head for the getaway car, then you win. If they stand and fight, then you better be prepared for that. I don't like the idea of simply "lying down like good victim" and praying they don't decide to execute any & all witnesses just for the sake of aiding their departure, but that's me. He who dies with the most toys...still dies. I've vowed that I didn't serve my country at home and overseas just to come back home and have some pukesack kill me here. That being said, If I'm going down, I'm going down swinging. I'd rather die with my gun in my hand than secured safely in my holster.
"Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me. Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be, "If I only had my gun"; and Lord if today is truly the day that you call me home...let me die in a pile of empty brass."
HoneyBadger
10-08-2015, 09:12
Wow, this is a really crappy situation. Like cstone said, this is the opposite of winning the lottery.
After reading through all the responses here, I too was devising the best way to take them all out with my ccw... then some of the wise old fellers on the forum spoke up and I've changed my stance. While having a plan of attack and trigger points is certainly a necessity in a situation such as this, I think the best outcome is for you to escape with your life. There are different ways of doing that, and some paths may involve firing your weapon, while some paths may include allowing yourself to be victimized to a greater extent. I would like to go home to my family at night, but I fear that the adrenaline may encourage me to respond with very aggressive, life changing, paradigm altering force.
rock_castle
10-08-2015, 12:27
I wonder if there is any video available. I would like to see how this went down.
RonMexico
10-08-2015, 12:37
I've been shooting 3+x a week, but this thread proves to me that we can never train enough. I'm gonna go practice a few 4 person robbery hold up and get back to you all.
Btw: I think the other customers in the shop are the biggest disadvantage. I can't wait to see the surveillance footage bc if they are all stacked behind each other, awesom! Bc it would be easy to mow them all down. If they fanned out and covered all coners of the store, I think we would all be SOL.
RonMexico
10-08-2015, 18:38
Range report: it took me 7x until I was 100% accurate at 20yds. My first run I hit 3:8 shoots( yikes I suck). After several runs I increased pace and accuracy.
Target size: 12x12 plates and my only excuse was it's my gf glock....I don't claim to be a good handgun shooter and I have to say I'll keep practicing my draw, movement and multiple target engagements.
After my training today-I'll engage; Before today-I should have went prone on the ground.
https://youtu.be/a6BZPHOq85k
Great-Kazoo
10-08-2015, 19:08
Range report: it took me 7x until I was 100% accurate at 20yds. My first run I hit 3:8 shoots( yikes I suck). After several runs I increased pace and accuracy.
Target size: 12x12 plates and my only excuse was it's my gf glock....I don't claim to be a good handgun shooter and I have to say I'll keep practicing my draw, movement and multiple target engagements.
After my training today-I'll engage; Before today-I should have went prone on the ground.
https://youtu.be/a6BZPHOq85k
How many of those targets were shooting back at you, separating in to 4 different sections of the store, using one of the people as a hostage / barrier ?
Next time you're in town, i'll see if i can borrow some simunition kits. Then we'll see how good anyone does. The 1st thing i became aware of is NO ONE WANTS TO GET SHOT / HIT. Even though everyone knows it's not a death a sentence if one gets hit by a simunition round. #2 is people are looking for cover. How many rounds that gun you carrying have ?
Just saying.
Bunch of amatures.
First perp I ninja death pinky touch (pow), i fly through the air and karate kick ninja death double pinky death touch (double pow) I figure this will have the other two either scared of my mad skills or throwing lead my way. Doesn't matter, my super speed and agility dodges rounds with the accurance of a flying squirrel . Third suspect gets the nut/pus kick that sends them flying into fouth suspect (zap pow). Dazed and confused i take them out with a flaming death blow (zing). Become instant hero, ticker tape parade and key to the city. Yes i am that good, fear me.
Crap situation, hope i am never faced with something like that.
GunsRBadMMMMKay
10-08-2015, 20:46
I'd shat my pantaloons so they didn't want to touch my wallet...............then lie on the floor acting like i was crying till they left.
I really like those visualization techniques. I have never lost a force on force conflict in my head. [LOL]
No one knows what they will do till it happens. Things almost never happen the same way twice, and they are never the same as you imagined they would be. If things always went as planned, X's and O's would play football on chalkboards.
Sometimes you eat the bear...and sometimes the bear eats you. Make the best choices you possibly can with as much of the information as you can gather. Execute to the best of your ability and learn from your successes and failures.
Be safe.
Great-Kazoo
10-08-2015, 22:17
What's the first thing to go wrong when you have a Plan ?
Bailey Guns
10-09-2015, 06:45
The PLAN never survives initial contact with the enemy.
sneakerd
10-09-2015, 07:13
Funny I never heard anything about this until now- as it happened 1 block from my house and I am an incessant news hound.
Too bad the workers weren't ready for a burglary like this guy in my home town:
https://youtu.be/Ea9acc8uXXg
http://www.wisn.com/news/video-shows-bouchards-owner-defending-his-store/34328414
Just a thought though... My thoughts would be turning to Faro's bar and that robbery. If everyone was getting put onto the ground... you are literally putting your life in the hands of the perps.
I'd shat my pantaloons so they didn't want to touch my wallet...............then lie on the floor acting like i was crying till they left.
Winner. [Awesom]
Oh, and Kazoo might have misinterpreted my post earlier in this thread. Or it didn't come across just right when I typed it.
The part where I mentioned "laying down cover fire" was meant in jest. But the plan where I bolt for the nearest exit and hope the chance of one of them hitting me with a fatal shot while on the move is pretty low was serious. Self preservation is high on my list of priorities. Hell, if someone nearby is smaller and weaker than me maybe I could use them as a human shield as I bolted for the exit.
Oh, and you guys suck. I'd rather play the "what if" scenario where I win the lottery, like cstone mentioned.
Great-Kazoo
10-09-2015, 09:01
Winner. [Awesom]
Oh, and Kazoo might have misinterpreted my post earlier in this thread. Or it didn't come across just right when I typed it.
The part where I mentioned "laying down cover fire" was meant in jest. But the plan where I bolt for the nearest exit and hope the chance of one of them hitting me with a fatal shot while on the move is pretty low was serious. Self preservation is high on my list of priorities. Hell, if someone nearby is smaller and weaker than me maybe I could use them as a human shield as I bolted for the exit.
Oh, and you guys suck. I'd rather play the "what if" scenario where I win the lottery, like cstone mentioned.
RULE # 1 CARDIO
Winner. [Awesom]
Oh, and Kazoo might have misinterpreted my post earlier in this thread. Or it didn't come across just right when I typed it.
The part where I mentioned "laying down cover fire" was meant in jest. But the plan where I bolt for the nearest exit and hope the chance of one of them hitting me with a fatal shot while on the move is pretty low was serious. Self preservation is high on my list of priorities. Hell, if someone nearby is smaller and weaker than me maybe I could use them as a human shield as I bolted for the exit.
Oh, and you guys suck. I'd rather play the "what if" scenario where I win the lottery, like cstone mentioned.
The George Costanza of COAR15
:D
muddywings
10-09-2015, 10:47
Overall shit sandwich.
I'll probably get my hand slapped for cross linking to the other site but the 'pat down' reminded me of a shooting AAR.
Here it is:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_My_CCW_Shooting_AAR__Now_with_Moar_Graphic_ Pics_on_pg_29_and_30.html
My concern is the mentality of the perps if they find my CCW--i can't predict that. They could be happy with finding another item to steal or someone could go all Waingro on me while I'm staring at some crappy linoleum.
It's risky to go 1 v 4 in a shootout but once I lay down and they starting patting people down I hold even shittier cards in the game. Untrained thugs start running away with the gun point behind them and they start pulling the trigger more times than not.
Of course it's situation dependent but if I can't initiate quickly then maybe once the other innocents lay down is when I take my chances by going for the nearest threat in hopes the rest scatter like cockroaches.
Again-shit sandwich with no good play
RULE # 1 CARDIO
I'm so screwed.
[Coffee]
buffalobo
10-09-2015, 11:57
I'm so screwed.
[Coffee]
Don't slow down, there is camel two steps behind and it took him a long time to get up to speed, can't stop fast either.
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Great-Kazoo
10-09-2015, 17:25
I'm so screwed.
[Coffee]
https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Mc1d3866e7bc458415c9f1928f693a8d1o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
buffalobo
10-09-2015, 20:54
https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Mc1d3866e7bc458415c9f1928f693a8d1o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
That is funny.
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Aloha_Shooter
10-09-2015, 22:06
First perp I ninja death pinky touch (pow)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dka54jH9po
Rooskibar03
10-10-2015, 09:24
Some surveillance footage shown in this news report. According to report only 3 suspects, one of which was female.
http://kdvr.com/2015/10/09/atf-offers-10000-reward-in-armed-robbery-of-assault-rifles/
HoneyBadger
10-10-2015, 09:36
Some surveillance footage shown in this news report. According to report only 3 suspects, one of which was female.
http://kdvr.com/2015/10/09/atf-offers-10000-reward-in-armed-robbery-of-assault-rifles/
I'm having an "assault rifle" aneurysm.
The place is a lot smaller than I envisioned. Due to the "hallway" created by the display cases, engaging might have been simpler, but because the place is so darned small, the victims were quickly surrounded and overcome.
Bailey Guns
10-10-2015, 09:54
Oh, look... ATF Special Agent Dumbass doesn't know what he's talking about. Shocker.
HoneyBadger
10-10-2015, 10:01
Oh, look... ATF Special Agent Dumbass doesn't know what he's talking about. Shocker.
I guess I have such low expectations of the ATF in general that it didn't really surprise me.
Rooskibar03
10-10-2015, 10:01
I'm having an "assault rifle" aneurysm.
The place is a lot smaller than I envisioned. Due to the "hallway" created by the display cases, engaging might have been simpler, but because the place is so darned small, the victims were quickly surrounded and overcome.
Did you notice the big guy tripped just waking in the door. Not exactly a crack squad of bad guys.
RonMexico
10-10-2015, 11:55
Did you notice the big guy tripped just waking in the door. Not exactly a crack squad of bad guys.
Watching that news report.... AND IF(GK is uptight) you spotted the first guy coming in... I am confident an armed citizen would have been able to stop this situation. They are lined up and even a stray bullet prob would have hitting the glass or one of the other clowns walking in. I would also put money on the fact, if any of those guys heard a gun shot, they would have ran off. Last, by their posture they weren't looking for a gunfight and prob one of O's sons from north Denver.
Great-Kazoo
10-10-2015, 15:09
Watching that news report.... AND IF(GK is uptight) you spotted the first guy coming in... I am confident an armed citizen would have been able to stop this situation. They are lined up and even a stray bullet prob would have hitting the glass or one of the other clowns walking in. I would also put money on the fact, if any of those guys heard a gun shot, they would have ran off. Last, by their posture they weren't looking for a gunfight and prob one of O's sons from north Denver.
Only if i'm looking at the door. Not sure about you, when i'm in a pawn shop i'm usually occupied looking at display cases and the gun rack.
kidicarus13
10-10-2015, 15:19
All you Operators... when exactly do you decide to engage (after viewing the video)? Armchair QB'ing... always entertaining.
Did you notice the big guy tripped just waking in the door. Not exactly a crack squad of bad guys.
It appears he bent down to release and close the door. I would say a shrewd move as there was about to be some shouting and possibly screaming that would carry to the street.
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