View Full Version : Master Mechanics step inside-no crank no start 98 Civic (random)
muddywings
10-19-2015, 09:24
Car Mechanic gurus step inside and let me know what you think.
I have a 98 Honda Civic that I use as a commuter car. Bought the car as commuter when gas prices were touching high $3 a few years back so I would not have to drive the truck. I think I’m the second, maybe third owner. It wasn’t in prime condition but back then I was looking for anything that saved me on gas these were going fast and furious on Craigslist. I have had to do a few items like CV joint, leaky oil pan etc on it.
The Problem:
I get a random no start. I get lights, but no crank, no start. Just dead silence when I go to the start position except I do hear a faint humming noise from the passenger side dash. And it is very random.
Back in late July maybe, I jumped into the car in the morning, turned the key and got nothing. Bit perplexed, I took the key out, back in, and it started. (note: car sits in the garage when it’s home)
A week or two go by and same thing, but this time no amount of taking the key in/out, wiggling the key, turning the steering wheel helped. I jumped in my truck and went to work. I came home later in the day and it started fine.
Next day, this time instead of dead silence I got a horrible belt screeching noise. Jumped in the truck went to work. Came back, looked around under the hood at the start looking for possible loose wires on the starter, on the battery. Did not attempt a restart. (this was the only time I had a belt screeching noise)
I didn’t do a lot of investigating as I had to leave for a few days. My father-in-law came over while I was gone to see what he could see. Besides it being a bit flooded (my fault) it started fine.
Drive it a few weeks, no issues then when trying to leave work one day around 4 I get a no start. Dead silence (with the faint hum). Sit there perplexed for a bit try the key again and it starts up.
Next day it starts in the morning but again a no start again in the afternoon. (I was a parked downhill it a tough spot so I didn’t push it out). Got a ride home, drove the truck the next day. I tried it first thing in the morning and it started fine. (Drove the civic home and had a family member drive me back to work)
Since then, I get the same intermittent no start. Sometimes it will start a few seconds later on a second try, sometimes nothing. But now I park at work where I can just release the break and coast down a hill and bump start it. (makes for a much longer walk from the parking area to my office) (also, in case you wanted to know, yes you can bump start a car going in reverse too)
I bring it to a "honda guy" I know who works out of his own garage. (Full lift and everything) But of course it starts fine. I thinks it could be the key cylinder maybe switch and has felt enough bad ones that he messes with it for bit but says it still feels solid and with it starting fine it's hard to diagnosis. (He doesn't charge me anything for the quick look)
Last time I had a serious no start where nothing helped, I drove it to O’Reilly after I bumped it. Once at O’Reilly, it started fine. But they tested the battery, alternator, and starter with one of their fancy machines-all check strong with no issues. I even showed the techs there a short phone video of the symptoms and they were perplexed. One tech had me call his ‘master mechanic’ buddy. I described everything above and he had me look at ignition relay under the hood (which was on the passenger side). He asked if the prongs were blued as if they were arching. Nope, looked perfectly fine. He thought for sure that would be it. He recommended since those relays are only $8 to replace it and give it a shot. Replaced with a new relay. Still have the problem.
So, last Friday I took a look at two things-
I took apart the Main relay. Now, from my research, a main relay failure should give you a crank but no start (lack of fuel). When the main relay was unplugged that is exactly what I got. After removing the circuit board from the box housing the board looked fine except one solder point was rather brown. Picture:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/19/8baf1758b874df2596b4515bfc39891b.jpg
I also pulled the steering column off and disconnected the starter switch from the key cylinder. The key cylinder prong looked find and the plastic on the starter switch looked find (no cracking). The solder points the start switch also looked fine. Pictures:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/19/9e49d75b1f047f038413e1237e0907a2.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/19/a10cc406da69f196de3e65d11663b6e3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/19/db27c4eebe395202f13881f550433176.jpg
Now this is a commuter car that is supposed to save me money so I really don’t want to start tossing money at it left and right to make it work. My main theory is that this is electrical and when it’s warm out I have some connection with a week solder point and it doesn’t make the connection initially or not at all. The main relay doesn’t make a ton of sense based on my symptoms vs a bad main relay problem but the brown on the circuit board has me pondering—also that hum is from that area. My second though is that the lead inside of the starter switch that makes the connection could be bad which is why I get lights but nothing else (but that hum from the passenger side/main relay area has me confused).
So, master mechanics of the world wide web, any ideas?
Without reading the thread. Try the main relay.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 09:51
Without reading the thread. Try the main relay.
Didn't replace it yet.
Took it out, and got classic main relay failure--crank but no start. My problem: I get no crank no start at random times.
Circuit board picture above is of the main relay.
fullmann
10-19-2015, 09:55
Check your battery connection, make sure it's tight and clean. There may be a small bridge in there that allows lights and what not to work, but the current draw of the starter is too much.
When you jump the car, it may be crimping the battery terminal tight again, but it loosens over the next couple days driving.
If if I remember right, the battery clamp on those is pretty thin and prone to stretching, making it loose no matter how much you wrench it down
muddywings
10-19-2015, 10:02
Check your battery connection, make sure it's tight and clean. There may be a small bridge in there that allows lights and what not to work, but the current draw of the starter is too much.
When you jump the car, it may be crimping the battery terminal tight again, but it loosens over the next couple days driving.
If if I remember right, the battery clamp on those is pretty thin and prone to stretching, making it loose no matter how much you wrench it down
Never had to jump it. Always bumped started it via a push (or a simple roll down a hill).
Battery connections are solid. Even the techs at O'Reilly didn't see any issues there and their battery tester showed no issues with batter, alternator or starter.
Unless there is something corroded or broken, you can't tell what a circuit is doing just by looking at it. Get a meter and see what you're getting at the starter and go from there.
Not sure what they did for you at the parts store, but is there any to see what kind of test they ran and what they got for readings?
O'Reilly has "techs"?
muddywings
10-19-2015, 10:41
Unless there is something corroded or broken, you can't tell what a circuit is doing just by looking at it. Get a meter and see what you're getting at the starter and go from there.
Not sure what they did for you at the parts store, but is there any to see what kind of test they ran and what they got for readings?
O'Reilly has "techs"?
The problem has been the randomness of the issue. In the past 3-4 months it has only happened a handful of times. Then even without moving the car the problem goes away.
ie: problem in the morning in my garage but gone in the afternoon. or, problem when trying to leave work but after I bump it and get home or to a store/shop the problem doesn't duplicate. That is what my 'honda guy' had a problem with. They can't test or trouble shoot for a problem that isn't currently happening. I might be able to find a connect that has a lot of resistance but I don't have the resources of knowledge to test to that level.
For me, the car is unreliable for anything other than driving to/from work.
The test at O'Reilly was with some pretty big machine (kinda like a super OBDII reader) but it was hooked to the battery. beyond that, I don't know what it was.
Possibly in the ignition coil/distributor where the timing may be off? When I rebuilt my Tahoe engine it would do this because the timing was off. Wouldn't start, then the computer would take over and bypass something and it would start fine on the next try or two. Got it timed right and no problems.
when was the last time it had a tune up with new belts, plugs wires etc? Might be worth it to get it all taken care of at once or do it yourself. You can get kits on eBay very cheap. All the belts, gaskets, water pump, plugs wires, distributor fuel filter air filter etc for I think around $200-250
Neutral switch. Starter solenoid?
Hondas of that generation were known for random hot start issues like you are describing that are difficult to pin down. Replacing the main relay was always the solution. I think people were able to get the car to start in a pinch by taping on the relay. Next time it happens give that a try and see if it works.
The problem has been the randomness of the issue. In the past 3-4 months it has only happened a handful of times. Then even without moving the car the problem goes away.
ie: problem in the morning in my garage but gone in the afternoon. or, problem when trying to leave work but after I bump it and get home or to a store/shop the problem doesn't duplicate. That is what my 'honda guy' had a problem with. They can't test or trouble shoot for a problem that isn't currently happening. I might be able to find a connect that has a lot of resistance but I don't have the resources of knowledge to test to that level.
For me, the car is unreliable for anything other than driving to/from work.
The test at O'Reilly was with some pretty big machine (kinda like a super OBDII reader) but it was hooked to the battery. beyond that, I don't know what it was.
Meters are good for spotting "randomness". ;)
Im guessing they only did a starter draw, that won't tell you what kind of resistance...er...random problems you may have between the battery/starter/relay/ignition cylinder.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 11:03
Possibly in the ignition coil/distributor where the timing may be off? When I rebuilt my Tahoe engine it would do this because the timing was off. Wouldn't start, then the computer would take over and bypass something and it would start fine on the next try or two. Got it timed right and no problems.
when was the last time it had a tune up with new belts, plugs wires etc? Might be worth it to get it all taken care of at once or do it yourself. You can get kits on eBay very cheap. All the belts, gaskets, water pump, plugs wires, distributor fuel filter air filter etc for I think around $200-250
Previous owner showed me documents of timing belt/mx tuneup at 105K. I'm at 185K now. Was planning on doing it at the end of this year when I get close to 200K. Might bump that up. Thanks. (Still think it's electrical)
muddywings
10-19-2015, 11:04
Neutral switch. Starter solenoid?
Thought about that. Tried turning over the car without the clutch in and the problem is different than what I get without the clutch pushed in. Mainly that humming noise. So I sorta ruled that out.
As for starter solenoid-was thinking of just replacing the starter but worried I'm going to be pumping money into the wrong problems first. Hoping not to do that.
If you have no issues whatsoever once its been push started, look at the starter circuit. There's no question you have a bad component there.
ETA...is this a manual or auto?
muddywings
10-19-2015, 11:06
Meters are good for spotting "randomness". ;)
Im guessing they only did a starter draw, that won't tell you what kind of resistance...er...random problems you may have between the battery/starter/relay/ignition cylinder.
Bit over my head. They hooked up their fancy duddad and said it was good. Granted, I know it was O'Reilly people but I'm less knowledgeable than them.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 11:09
Hondas of that generation were known for random hot start issues like you are describing that are difficult to pin down. Replacing the main relay was always the solution. I think people were able to get the car to start in a pinch by taping on the relay. Next time it happens give that a try and see if it works.
Yup, I already emptied the glove compartment and just left it hanging down so, 1. I can try to pinpoint the noise a bit better and 2. I try taping on it when I get the problem again. That brown spot on the solder makes hope that is what it is. My father-in-law is betting money on the starter switch. He thinks this is funny as hell and can't wait for my next text message of a no start. He likes puzzles too.
Also for the price of a new main relay, I may just replace that too ($30ish) before going to more expensive options like the start switch ($50) or starter ($100).
Sorry, If we weren't so far away, I'd be able to go take a look. Hopefully somebody a little closer can stop by to lend a hand.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 11:11
If you have no issues whatsoever once its been push started, look at the starter circuit. There's no question you have a bad component there.
ETA...is this a manual or auto?
Manual-hence the bump/push start.
My father-in-law is putting money on the starter circuit/switch/wiring bundle.
Sorry, If we weren't so far away, I'd be able to go take a look. Hopefully somebody a little closer can stop by to lend a hand.
Thanks for the offer. I'm less pissy about the issue now that I just park in BFE at work so I can get a rolling start if I need to. I just don't like putting a ton of money in a beater commuter car. I'd rather put it gun stuff!
Manual-hence the bump/push start.
My father-in-law is putting money on the starter circuit/switch/wiring bundle.
Oh. Derp.
Sorry, just waking up.
The question came to mind when I saw woof's question. Haha
Great-Kazoo
10-19-2015, 11:58
Contact Zteknik / Bobby. he's a Ford tech, he might lift his standards to take a guess.
buffalobo
10-19-2015, 12:20
Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
muddywings
10-19-2015, 13:11
Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
hmmm...this just took an interesting direction. Thanks a lot! ;) just kidding. ok, another possible.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 13:22
First video was about a week or so ago:
https://vimeo.com/142912066
no start, no crank, no nothing but the humming noise that the phone couldn't pick up
Second video is last friday. I had a no start. I took the phone out out, turned it on, started video then got it to start:
https://vimeo.com/142914083
Honestly, neither of them tell much of a story if you ask me but figured I would upload them from my phone. Quality sucks of course
Car Mechanic gurus step inside and let me know what you think.
I have a 98 Honda Civic that I use as a commuter car. Bought the car as commuter when gas prices were touching high $3 a few years back so I would not have to drive the truck. I think I’m the second, maybe third owner. It wasn’t in prime condition but back then I was looking for anything that saved me on gas these were going fast and furious on Craigslist. I have had to do a few items like CV joint, leaky oil pan etc on it.
The Problem:
I get a random no start. I get lights, but no crank, no start. Just dead silence when I go to the start position except I do hear a faint humming noise from the passenger side dash. And it is very random.
Back in late July maybe, I jumped into the car in the morning, turned the key and got nothing. Bit perplexed, I took the key out, back in, and it started. (note: car sits in the garage when it’s home)
A week or two go by and same thing, but this time no amount of taking the key in/out, wiggling the key, turning the steering wheel helped. I jumped in my truck and went to work. I came home later in the day and it started fine.
Next day, this time instead of dead silence I got a horrible belt screeching noise. Jumped in the truck went to work. Came back, looked around under the hood at the start looking for possible loose wires on the starter, on the battery. Did not attempt a restart. (this was the only time I had a belt screeching noise)
I didn’t do a lot of investigating as I had to leave for a few days. My father-in-law came over while I was gone to see what he could see. Besides it being a bit flooded (my fault) it started fine.
Drive it a few weeks, no issues then when trying to leave work one day around 4 I get a no start. Dead silence (with the faint hum). Sit there perplexed for a bit try the key again and it starts up.
Next day it starts in the morning but again a no start again in the afternoon. (I was a parked downhill it a tough spot so I didn’t push it out). Got a ride home, drove the truck the next day. I tried it first thing in the morning and it started fine. (Drove the civic home and had a family member drive me back to work)
Since then, I get the same intermittent no start. Sometimes it will start a few seconds later on a second try, sometimes nothing. But now I park at work where I can just release the break and coast down a hill and bump start it. (makes for a much longer walk from the parking area to my office) (also, in case you wanted to know, yes you can bump start a car going in reverse too)
I bring it to a "honda guy" I know who works out of his own garage. (Full lift and everything) But of course it starts fine. I thinks it could be the key cylinder maybe switch and has felt enough bad ones that he messes with it for bit but says it still feels solid and with it starting fine it's hard to diagnosis. (He doesn't charge me anything for the quick look)
Last time I had a serious no start where nothing helped, I drove it to O’Reilly after I bumped it. Once at O’Reilly, it started fine. But they tested the battery, alternator, and starter with one of their fancy machines-all check strong with no issues. I even showed the techs there a short phone video of the symptoms and they were perplexed. One tech had me call his ‘master mechanic’ buddy. I described everything above and he had me look at ignition relay under the hood (which was on the passenger side). He asked if the prongs were blued as if they were arching. Nope, looked perfectly fine. He thought for sure that would be it. He recommended since those relays are only $8 to replace it and give it a shot. Replaced with a new relay. Still have the problem.
So, last Friday I took a look at two things-
I took apart the Main relay. Now, from my research, a main relay failure should give you a crank but no start (lack of fuel). When the main relay was unplugged that is exactly what I got. After removing the circuit board from the box housing the board looked fine except one solder point was rather brown. Picture:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/19/8baf1758b874df2596b4515bfc39891b.jpg
I also pulled the steering column off and disconnected the starter switch from the key cylinder. The key cylinder prong looked find and the plastic on the starter switch looked find (no cracking). The solder points the start switch also looked fine. Pictures:
Now this is a commuter car that is supposed to save me money so I really don’t want to start tossing money at it left and right to make it work. My main theory is that this is electrical and when it’s warm out I have some connection with a week solder point and it doesn’t make the connection initially or not at all. The main relay doesn’t make a ton of sense based on my symptoms vs a bad main relay problem but the brown on the circuit board has me pondering—also that hum is from that area. My second though is that the lead inside of the starter switch that makes the connection could be bad which is why I get lights but nothing else (but that hum from the passenger side/main relay area has me confused).
So, master mechanics of the world wide web, any ideas?
The brown on that PCB appears to just be flux residue. Unless you inspect each pad with magnification, it's possible there are annular cracks at one or more pad that you can't see with the naked eye. That could certainly explain the intermittent symptoms. If you have it out and access to a quality soldering iron, I'd hit each pad with a little flux and reflow them all.
Hot iron, don't pussy foot around trying to use an undersized iron. Rapid heat application is better than a slow cook. Guessing at the size, I'd be running probably 625-650* on my iron to reflow those size pads. If they don't flow when fluxed in a second, they need more heat. Perhaps as high as 700* with proper technique.
I repair lots of old stereo gear for myself as an on again off again hobby and it's a common issue. More common than you can imagine.
muddywings
10-19-2015, 14:01
yup-have soldering iron and have done some hobby PCB board wiring before. That is on the to plan probably next weekend. Was hoping that I could get more no start conditions and see with the glovebox down if I could pin point the humming noise better.
SideShow Bob
10-19-2015, 18:48
Have had same/similar issue with mid 90's Civic and early 90's 4Runner, both times it was solenoid/starter.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
This, next time you get the no crank/start problem, tap on the solinoid fairly hard with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it starts up after that, there's your problem.
buffalobo
10-19-2015, 19:08
This, next time you get the no crank/start problem, tap on the solinoid fairly hard with the handle of a screwdriver.
If it starts up after that, there's your problem.
Yep, that was the test in both cases, after I did most all the stuff muddy has done.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
My wife's accord basically had the same issue. Shop found an issue with the alarm system wiring causing resistance to starter. Clipped the wire and no more problem.
T. B. Turner
10-19-2015, 20:37
Sometimes a problem that happens to starters on high mileage vehicles is that when the starters get worn the armature does not exactly where it should to activate when the juice is put to it, If you tap the starter with what ever you have handy rock, hammer, even by poking a broom stick to it from above. That tends to jar things back into place and it may work again. but it still will eventually need a new starter.
muddywings
10-20-2015, 07:11
Sometimes a problem that happens to starters on high mileage vehicles is that when the starters get worn the armature does not exactly where it should to activate when the juice is put to it, If you tap the starter with what ever you have handy rock, hammer, even by poking a broom stick to it from above. That tends to jar things back into place and it may work again. but it still will eventually need a new starter.
Copy all (and others).
I have a screwdriver and a ball-peen hammer sitting in the passenger seat. That's my plan is to start at the starter and work my way around.
Now to just wait for it to happen consistently enough to test it.
(also, this was my father-in-laws first theory, he has since moved on to electrical; time will tell.
How much is your time and aggravation worth? It sounds like you have already wasted more than $150 in your time and being stranded trying to "Not spend money on parts". Open up the wallet and start replacing parts to get the issue resolved. Investing $150 in two parts isn't a lot of money if it solves the problem.
spongejosh
10-21-2015, 02:00
I've had a similar problem on 3 cars with 3 different fixes. On my old car it was the battery and ground contacts. Took each hot and ground lead off the battery, starter and alternator and cleaned them good with a wire brush. problem never returned. This one would cause the main relay to go nuts when it wasn't getting enough juice, flashing the dash lights like a rave.
On my wife's car it was the clutch switch. It would randomly not work. Took it apart and the contacts were all gunked up. Cleaned it and problem was fixed. Still replaced it with a new one once I knew that was the problem because it was cheap. This one was interesting because I could pump the clutch and get it to start most of the time.
Last one was on my truck and it ended up being the starter. The solenoid would click but not turn over the starter. Hitting it with a jack handle got it to turn over for a couple weeks until I replaced it.
If you have the factory radio in that car, I think you need to figure out the radio code before unhooking the battery or your radio/security feature will give you problems. This is one thing I need to figure out on my 2000 civic. Anybody know how to get the radio code?
SideShow Bob
10-21-2015, 16:44
If you have the factory radio in that car, I think you need to figure out the radio code before unhooking the battery or your radio/security feature will give you problems. This is one thing I need to figure out on my 2000 civic. Anybody know how to get the radio code?
If you have never programmed it, or a previous owner never programmed it, the factory default code is in your owners manual. There will also be information on how to check / set the code.
If you screw it up, the dealer won't help you. I ended up getting an after market head unit in my 1996 GSR.
Hey guys, I'm new here but I'm a mechanic so I thought I'd throw my 2 cents. First, I am not a Honda tech, Mercedes for over 13 years but that can mean squat when it comes to other manufacturers sometimes. Second, I only read most of the first page replies so you may be past this point. I think it is the starter. If you are able to push start it when the condition happens, then the starter would be my guess.
muddywings
11-03-2015, 14:50
If you have the factory radio in that car, I think you need to figure out the radio code before unhooking the battery or your radio/security feature will give you problems. This is one thing I need to figure out on my 2000 civic. Anybody know how to get the radio code?
For those curious, I have the factory radio, it sits connected with a y connector and resides under the dash, the other end of the y connector goes to the after market radio. You need the factor radio to program the key fob and this is the only way to do it.
The radio was not the problem.
muddywings
11-03-2015, 14:52
Solved it-
Drum roll please.......
I finally got two more no crank no starts and trouble shot the problem (the first one that happened after the original post happened about two weeks ago but wanted a second time to confirm).
Both times, same formula-
No crank, no start
Tapped on the starter switch which is exposed as I took off the steering column cover-no change.
Tapped on the main relay-no change.
Opened the hood, took a ballpeen hammer to the starter, left the hood open, jumped back in the car and tried again-instant crank.
I guess today's warm weather helped push it over the edge again.
For those who advised 'starter' you won the internet for the day.
http://i.imgur.com/dwevLZF.jpg
/thread
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