Local dog owner seeks justice

[Ah Pook]

Local dog owner seeks justice


Barbara Lawlor (http://themtnear.com/author/balawlor/) · Oct 20th, 2015 ·

http://i1.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-Josh-and-Ragnar-face.jpeg?resize=265%2C300 (http://i1.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-Josh-and-Ragnar-face.jpeg)Barbara Lawlor, Gilpin County. Gilpin resident Josh Davis says a misdemeanor summons is not enough of a punishment for the man who killed his dog and he plans to file a civil lawsuit against the suspect when he has the money to hire an attorney. Davis’s dog Ragnar, an Akita mix, was shot and killed and then buried in a shallow grave near a neighbor’s property off Pactolus Road a week ago Sunday. Davis moved into the area last March and has worked as a cook at the Sundance Cafe for the past five years. During that time he has seen his neighbor Erik Miller drive to his property located behind Davis’s residence often and has heard gunshots coming from the area, where Miller often shot at targets. Miller is a contract building inspector for Gilpin County. Neither Davis nor his house-mates had ever met Miller or talked to him. On Sunday morning, October 18, Davis was asleep after working the previous night, when one of his housemates came into his bedroom and said, “I think your dog just got shot.” Zach Starcher said that he heard a gunshot from Miller’s property and then a bunch of yelps and screams followed by another shot and then silence. http://i2.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-nother-josh.jpg?resize=257%2C300 (http://i2.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-nother-josh.jpg) “I drove up the guy’s driveway past the no trespassing signs and I saw him walking down with a pistol,” says Starcher. “He didn’t say anything. When I told him I heard gunshots and asked him if he had shot a dog, he said he was shooting targets and asked why I was there. He was nonchalant and gave me a look that was threatening without saying anything. He held out his gun in an attitude of intimidation. I said yeah, that’s a big gun and came back down to the house.” Davis and Starcher walked around the property, searching the woods, waiting to see if Ragnar returned. The next morning, Starcher took his black lab Clyde with him who picked up a trail of blood near an area that had been cleaned up, but there were blood streaks on the branches nearby. Clyde led him down a steep embankment into a deep ravine to the gravesite. http://i0.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-zach-and-clyde.jpg?resize=241%2C300 (http://i0.wp.com/themtnear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/dog-zach-and-clyde.jpg)When Starcher dug up the disturbed soil he found Ragnar’s body under about eight inches of leafy topsoil. The dogs collar and tags were gone and there were two big holes in his chest. “I carried him back to the house and we called the sheriff. By that time Miller was gone. The deputies took a report and then we took Ragnar’s body to the Nederland Animal Hospital.” Davis says that on Monday night a deputy called him and said that Miller had been served a summons for Cruelty to Animals, a misdemeanor offense and also admitted to killing the dog. The sheriff’s report, however, is still under investigation and not being released until the investigation is completed. The case has also been turned over to the Gilpin County District Attorney to investigate the possibility of a felony charge of Animal Cruelty with Aggravated Circumstances. Since then Davis has been mourning the loss of his buddy. He got Ragnar, one of the clan of a local dog, when he was six weeks old in March of 2013. “It was him and me,” says Davis. “For two and a half years he was my loving dog. He was big with lots of energy and loved to do anything, whatever I wanted to do he was for it. He also liked to lay around and cuddle. When I lived in Nederland he went everywhere with me and everyone knew him.” Ragnar was named after a legendary Viking hero and Davis says he is the first dog he has ever had. Davis suffers from PTSD and says that Ragnar would help ground him when he was in a stressful situation. “It is a big thing to take away somebody’s dog and not even know what the situation is.” Chris Sarnecki, another housemate, says that this isn’t the first time Miller has shot at a dog. He says that once when the dogs were at the end of the driveway and starting to chase Miller’s pickup truck, Miller stopped, jumped out of the truck and shot a few rounds over the dogs heads from five feet away. Not trying to hit them at the time, but yelling, “Get out of here, get out of here.” Davis says the dogs have gone onto Miller’s property and brought back deer bones and they found a pig’s head stuck on a tree close to his boundary. Davis says he is going after Miller in a civil case because then maybe he’ll realize that this was a wrong thing to do. “If Ragnar had never yelped, we would have never known anything had happened to him. We probably would not have pursued this if Miller had told us what happened, but he tried to hide the evidence and say it never happened. Any justification is gone because of what he did after he killed my dog. He knew he did something wrong when he tried to hide it. He even took the time to take off the tags and dig out the bullets. If he had come to me and confessed and apologized, it still would have hurt and I still would have been angry, but it would be over and done with.” Davis and his friends are working on setting up an account at Centennial Bank in Nederland to raise funds to pay an attorney. He says that any proceeds after that will be donated to a stop animal abuse charity. Right now he is waiting for the sheriff’s report to be released. The summons to appear in court is slated for December 2. Last Monday night, one of the regular Sundance customers brought a female puppy, eight weeks old, part lab, part doberman, to Davis. “I was reluctant at first,” he says, “But she has already worked her way into my heart. I am waiting for her name to show itself in her personality. I have a lot of love to give back.”

I leave the link to be scholarly but please don't click on it. All the info is quoted. The paper owner is a useless sack of... I don't want to give her any more website traffic.

http://themtnear.com/2015/10/local-dog-owner-seeks-justice/

I know the dog and owner. I have heard several stories about the land owner. That said there is a lot of stupid in this article (not counting really bad journalism).

The first obligation of a dog owner is to protect their animal. The owner failed. The dog regularly ran wild with to supervision. The dog had no training. There are vids of the dog chasing/charging moose. Luckily, he had a good disposition.

The dog was on someone else' private property.

The property owner has a history of being an asshole with a gun. On and off of his property. He was not protecting livestock or pets. For whatever reason, he shot the dog, removed the collar, removed the bullets and then buried the animal.

Sadly, the end result is a dead dog. Both share equal responsibility.

[jhood001]

Train and control your dogs. If a freak accident puts your dog on someone else's property and it is shot, go for the throat.

[SouthPaw]

I may be a bit biased being a dog owner but I did not see a reason why the dog was actually shot? Only because he was on his property? Seems like Miller had 100 different options and used poor judgement by using a firearm. Using your firearm for defense is a last resort. He made his bed when he lied and tried to hide the evidence. I say hammer him.

[th3w01f]

For whatever reason, he shot the dog, removed the collar, removed the bullets and then buried the animal..

I agree the article is poorly written and who knows what really happened but if this is true it's pretty messed up. I'd have no problem shooting someones dog if it was on my property and threatening people, livestock, fowl, etc. I sure as hell wouldn't remove the collar and bury it to try and hide it.

[sniper7]

I hope the landowner gets off based on the current amount of information. He is just that, the landowner. He has no trespassing signs. He has obviously shown he doesn't want other people on his property, and obviously doesn't want dogs on his property or chasing his truck. You would think a little common knowledge like that would make you keep your dog on a leash and be careful where the dog goes.
i feel bad for the dog because it doesn't know property boundaries or the landowner, but the owner of the dog does.

i think it would set a bad precedent to convict the landowner, you are stripping away private property rights. And a dog is just property.

i feel bad for the dog and his owner, I really do. I love my dogs as well but owning a dog also means being responsible where the dog goes and what the dog does. Everybody thinks and says their dogs are great and wouldn't bite or hurt anyone, but unfortunately that isn't a guarantee. The only thing that bothers me, if true, is the collar and bullet removal. Call the number, tell them you had to shoot the dog and that's it. But he may also claim there never was a collar and there might not be proof either way. Digging the bullets out makes zero sense, but I don't know if there is anything that can be pushed since a dog is just property.

[jhood001]

^^ Sniper7's post.


I may be a bit biased being a dog owner but I did not see a reason why the dog was actually shot? Only because he was on his property? Seems like Miller had 100 different options and used poor judgement by using a firearm. Using your firearm for defense is a last resort. He made his bed when he lied and tried to hide the evidence. I say hammer him.

Totally agree. But land is land. We get all worked up when a human walks on our land without permissions. A pet walking on our land really is 'fair game'. I don't say that from the standpoint of believing in shooting domesticated animals. I say that from the standpoint of fully understanding that a dog can be trained to do just about anything you want it to do if you're willing to put in the time and the effort to train it.

Our amazing little friends are in our hands. And they'll do anything to make us happy. Bad shit happening because we as owners weren't disciplined and vigilant in our guardianship has nobody to blame but ourselves when something goes wrong.

Take the time and train your dog. If your dog will take food from a stranger - you're doing it wrong. If your dog bolts and runs - you're doing it wrong. If your dog barks without threat - you're doing it wrong. If your dog doesn't follow your every command... you're doing it wrong.

At the same time, anyone that kills a dog on their property is also 'doing it wrong'. A dog trespassing is an extremely easy thing to resolve with some conversation and sense and understanding of community.

But seriously - train your dogs or don't have them.

I am sad for the owner, but I am not sympathetic.

[sniper7]

The other thing I will mention is the owner saying the dog helped him with PTSD. I don't doubt that, but he goes on to say it's a big thing to take away a dog with understanding the situation...but on the flip side maybe this landowner had a major encounter as a kid or recently or with his own children, you don't know his side of the story either and you negligently let your dog run around chasing his truck and go on his property. It works both ways.

[Irving]

Owner of the dog didn't take the proper steps. First time owner. Feel bad for him. Guy who shot him is a total asshole though. A dog would have to pretty much bite me before I'd shot it, in my yard or not.

EDIT: Landowner being an asshole is further evidenced by the story of stopping the truck and shooting at dogs. Not on your land, not doing anything to your truck. What is the justification?

[fitz19d]

I put a heavy dose of blame on dog owner, but I still think it sounds like the other guy is a bit on the reckless scary side. I mean it's the country sure but stopping while still at the gate basically and popping off rounds? Really needed or were the dogs scratching it up or pursuing all the way to the house. When did he do anything about telling the guy to reign in his dogs? My family lives in mountains and visiting them there were dogs that met you from neighboring properties. where I had my wedding was a property past a few others on shared road. They had dogs following us partway up the road. I didn't jump out shooting at them to protect my delicate tundra.

[thvigil11]

Regardless of right or wrong, the lesson here us to keep your dog on your own property. Take whatever steps necessary, but as the owner, you have the duty to protect as you would any other member of the family. The shooter may or may not be an ass, but sadly, the true ass is the guy who let his dog run free and get killed. I might have more sympathy if the dog slipped his chain or got through a fence, but from what I read, none of that happened.

[thvigil11]

To add to my statement. Legal culpability is one thing and it sound like the shooter could be at fault. But what's the good of a potential legal settlement when your dog is dead. The owner carries that burden either way.

[Lars]

I can see both sides and while I feel bad for the owner of the pup, I have to agree with most of you guys that he did not do his part to ensure his dogs safety. We don't have the full story and the shooters side, although it does sound like he's been known to be an ass. I've been on both ends of this story and neither are any fun. I grew up on a ranch in western Colorado and we raised race horses, one of the neighbors German shepards continued to get out from their yard and would chase the horses. My grandpa warned the owner repeatedly to remedy the situation or actions would be taken. We started with a pellet gun and shot the dog in the ass on two separate occasions, the third time grandpa used a 12 gauge. The later instance was from a distance and with bird shot as grandpa definitely didn't want to kill another mans dog. He told the owner immediately and offered to pay the vet bill to have the few pellets removed. The cops were called and the owner was the one who received a ticket for harrasing livestock. Unfortunately that wasn't the last time, the dog wasn't very intelligent and a few months later I caught the dog chasing two colts in the arena, and after he ran one through a fence, I had had enough. Pulling that trigger was not easy but my lively hood comes before that dog. i only share this to point out that while the guy was an ass and clearly tried to cover it up maybe there is more to the story than what meets the eye. And for the record, I have never felt so bad in my life as I did walking down the road to the owners house to let them know that I had just killed their dog.

[sniper7]

I put a heavy dose of blame on dog owner, but I still think it sounds like the other guy is a bit on the reckless scary side. I mean it's the country sure but stopping while still at the gate basically and popping off rounds? Really needed or were the dogs scratching it up or pursuing all the way to the house. When did he do anything about telling the guy to reign in his dogs? My family lives in mountains and visiting them there were dogs that met you from neighboring properties. where I had my wedding was a property past a few others on shared road. They had dogs following us partway up the road. I didn't jump out shooting at them to protect my delicate tundra.


well that just solved that debate whenever it comes up again! [Coffee]

[SouthPaw]

Does this guy treat wildlife the same that comes onto his property? I know the dog owner failed his animal and ultimately the dog paid the price. As a pet owner you are taking full responsibility for their well being. The land owner was clear about his property. As Vigil said, right or wrong keep YOUR animals safe.

Lying, hiding the evidence, removing the slugs, burying the dog; sounds like he might have been questioning his decision.

EDIT: Proably should let some of pre workout get out my system since 4:30am before I start typing.

[MED]

I have one neighbor who's dog kept getting out. I loved the dog and generally like dogs so I always looked after him until my neighbor got back. This is how I am with most of the neighbor's dogs; I know most of them better then their owners. Now, I have another neighbor who's dogs are a menace. They constantly bark, they killed my other neighbor's ducks. In general, they are not trained at all. As much as I love dogs, I would kill them on sight if I see them on my property, call the sheriff, and claim self defence. Are the dogs bad, no. But a stupid owner makes a stupid dog and they are a menace. If this guy's dog was causing problems, then it probably needed to be handled. The shooter was a dumbass for trying to hide it; which makes it look like he just killed the dog for the hell of it.

[Special Ed]

The only one I feel sorry for is the dog. If the shooter is an animal lover, I'll feel sorry for him too because nobody who loves animals wants to kill someone's pet. The owner is grossly negligent both as an animal caretaker and neighbor. He's the kind of person who shouldn't have a pet because he's not responsible enough to ensure their well-being. We don't know the shooter's side of the story so we can't yet judge him. The collar and bullets could have been a lapse in judgement brought about by the stress of having killed something he may well love (again, if he's an animal lover).

My neighbor is the same kind of ass hat (though she's a hot ER nurse so the ass is nicer). She keeps her dog - his name is Earl - outside 24/7 and doesn't pay enough attention to him. Daily Earl climbs his 6' electrified fence to get out and get attention from the neighbors. Problem is, he's prone to aggression (might be the daily shock therapy). Even after he and I had been friends for months (lots of play time and relaxing on my porch on an almost daily basis), he turned on me and bit me when I got too close to his house (I stepped onto the grass between our houses - 60' feet from the property line). I didn't shoot him (though my hand was on my gun) and I didn't turn him in to Animal Control. I talked to his owner who had him gone by the next morning. He's back now - she had merely sent him to live with the guy who's now moved in with her - and meaner than ever. The mailman gets chased every day delivering the mail. Joggers get chased - though none have been bitten. Heck, the little bastard even chased the animal control deputy last week when another neighbor called them on the dog.

All that could have been avoided by the owner properly training Earl and giving him the attention he craves. He will either be shot or euthanized one day. That's a given - and it's sad.

If you can't control your pets, don't have them. If you can't meet their needs, don't have them.

[TheGrey]

I've got to say, I've seen some crappy journalism in my day, but printing hearsay, not attempting to verify facts, and not even attempting to interview the other party (and instead, painting him in a negative light by using subjective terms, speculation, and implication) is an MSNBC level of journalism. There's no law against being an asshole. Thankfully, this asshole prefers to be left alone in his wooded sanctuary, and lets people know this fact by being rather unpleasant. For those that have not encountered him, he has no trespassing signs. It sounds like he has enough property that he even has a firing range.

Despite that fact, the dog owner still let his Akita mix run free? Akitas are big dogs, and if someone doesn't know the dog is friendly, it is easy to misconstrue the dog's intent. You don't let your dog run loose, especially if you know your neighbor has a firing range. The story even provides examples of the dogs running loose and going on Miller's property several times. He didn't shoot them when they were on the driveway, which begs the question: if the roommate was there to witness Miller shooting above the dogs' heads and shouting at them to get out of there, WTF was the roommate doing? Just standing by, watching? Or was there some exaggeration involved?

It would be nice to know how far apart the properties are. The story implies there is a belt of woods where the dog was buried, but I'm not sure if it's owned by either of the property owners. Did Davis trespass on Miller's land to find where his dog was buried? It strikes me as odd that the dog's collar would be removed; assholes normally know their rights and are happy to stand by them and shove them in one's face if questioned. And how does Davis know the bullets have been dug out? WTF kind of speculation is that? This whole story is slanted toward Davis and poor puppy (which, by the way, was taken from the dam 2 weeks too early- those last 2 weeks are when a puppy learns crucial socialization techniques.) Davis never spoke to his neighbor, according to the article, but he could drive up past the no trespassing signs and ask Miller if he shot a dog, while Miller "held out his gun in an attitude of intimidation"? Wouldn't it make more sense for Davis to tell Miller that his dog was loose, and had he seen him?

I know, I know. Crappy journalism. I need to let it go. Davis let his dog run loose, his jerk neighbor allegedly shot the dog, and we're supposed to feel sorry for Davis, who has PTSD and finds comfort with his buddy (even though he coudn;t be bothered to train the dog.)

I feel bad for the dog. He was young and untrained and clearly didn't know any better. I suppose if he had been hit by a car, Davis would have blamed the driver.

As the story paints Miller as a complete asshole, (and is corroborated by Ah Pook) I have to wonder the mindset of someone that would shoot a pet dog. If the dog frequently went onto his property and caused destruction, or was a thief (I really don't think deer legs count) I could see Miller having some strong words with either the owner or someone that would get word back to the owner. If he did shoot him, he must have been very frustrated. Was it a horrible thing to do? Yes. Was he within his rights to do so? I don't know. Maybe he did remove the collar in the hopes that the dog's body wouldn't be found until it had begun to deteriorate. I think the rampant speculation of digging out the bullets is horse hockey. Why would anyone do that? It's not like the county is going to run ballistics to pin it on Miller. I also think the PTSD part is just to add more weight to Davis' side of the story. He may have PTSD, but a PTSD dog must be trained- and we all know Ragnar was not trained.

[Irving]

I had assumed (but don't know) that the dog owner found out the bullets were dug out from a report from the Nederland Animal Hospital. I don't know how extensive of an autopsy (if any) would be done though.

[TheGrey]

That's the thing. We don't know anything because only Davis and his roommate were apparently interviewed. It doesn't say squat about whether an animal necropsy was performed; the sheriff's report isn't released so we don't even know if the deputy actually told Davis that Miller shot the dog. It's all hearsay. There isn't even a mention of speaking with Animal Control to see if there had been any complaints about the dog running loose. It's all implication, for people to speculate and assume. CRAPPY journalism.

[Ah Pook]

CRAPPY journalism.
Welcome to the Mountain Smear. There is a reason I put the "don't click" caveat in the first post.

[TheGrey]

Welcome to the Mountain Smear. There is a reason I put the "don't click" caveat in the first post.

I know, and I didn't click on it. It must drive you crazy.

[Irving]

I feel dumb for not recognizing the terrible journalism. On the other hand, I feel a bit better for having built a fence for my dog.

[Monky]

It's all implication, for people to speculate and assume. CRAPPY journalism.

Don't you mean typical?



Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

[Great-Kazoo]

That's the thing.CRAPPY journalism.


Don't you mean typical?



Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.



Like this "story"

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/charlie-rangel-donald-trump-could-be-the-end-of-194926163.html [pileoshit]

[BushMasterBoy]

Killed the dog, then hid the evidence. Nice. I get dogs, horses, llamas, etc. on my property all the time. I haven't shot a single one. WTF is wrong with that guy?

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_29005654/gilpin-county-man-charged-animal-cruelty-shooting-burying

[sniper7]

Well that story shows they trespassed onto The guys property, then Dug up the dog on his property. CRS shows they can be charged with either a misdemeanor or a felony depending on circumstances.

[Danimal]

Deleted

[Great-Kazoo]

Killed the dog, then hid the evidence. Nice. I get dogs, horses, llamas, etc. on my property all the time. I haven't shot a single one. WTF is wrong with that guy?

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_29005654/gilpin-county-man-charged-animal-cruelty-shooting-burying

Maybe he was beyond tired of asking the dogs owner to take care of him. WE gave up talking to our neighbor about their dog. Now it's a call to animal control. However making the dog suffer for the stupidity or entitlement of the owner is another story.

[Calculated]

I see no reason to end the life of an innocent dog because of any owner's mistake. Unless you are a piece of shit, there's no reports of the dog being problematic or aggressive. You have to be a real lowlife to teach someone a lesson by taking a life, of anything. This is not wartime. As you said, call animal control... I completely agree the dog owner was in the wrong, but the land owner took it a step too far.

By his logic if the guy drove around a puddle onto his property on the way to his shooting spot, the dog owner should be allowed to shoot him dead. T'aint right...

[hurley842002]

T'aint ...

Did somebody say TAINT...?

[TheGrey]

Don't you mean typical?



Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.

It's becoming far more common, isn't it? Sloppy work, that's the truth.

[Great-Kazoo]

what kind of little girl drives around a puddle...toyota owner? i get it.

Hopefully a healthy cross fit one ;) I hear SP is a yota owner now. Breeding like the infidel

[Calculated]

what kind of little girl drives around a puddle...toyota owner? i get it.

The same kind that throws a tantrum and kills a dog for wandering onto his property...

[Great-Kazoo]

The same kind that throws a tantrum and kills a dog for wandering onto his property...

Short story long. Had the dogs with us years ago up in RMNP., off leash, just because.
Ranger pulls up , walks over to tell us. Just in case you were unaware (since we still had OOS plates) a loose / off leash dog is considered a wild dog in CO.
ESPECIALLY in national parks. Didn't know that. Oh yeah, we can shoot loose dogs under the guise of them being wild ones. Matter of fact ANYONE can shoot a loose dog .

SO asshole or not (which it sounds like) there's enough blame to go round. Owning a dog doesn't give one special snowflake privileges.

[Dave_L]

It would take a lot for me to shoot a dog.

That's about all I have to say about that.

[Martinjmpr]

Sounds like both of these guys were assholes. From the article, at least, they come across like this:

Dog owner: Lazy, careless, wannabe hippie "Hey, man, that's my ol' smellhound Rufus! He ain't gonna hurt nobody!" as the dog runs all over other peoples property, scattering trash, chasing animals, crapping on the ground where people can step in it, and the dog owner does nothing. Conclusion: ASSHOLE.

Dog Shooter: Crazy nutjob paranoid psycho, wears a tinfoil hat, listens to Art Bell and Alex Jones, surrounds his property with "no trespassing" signs and then sits there with a gun waiting for someone to step across the line so he can shoot them. Conclusion: ASSHOLE.

Now maybe that's unfair, maybe in real life they are decent people but I have known people like the two I described above and unfortunately, they are not that uncommon. Down here in the big city they generally have to curb their assholish behavior or face the consequences but out in the rural areas, they are more free to fly their asshole flag.

[Calculated]

What if the dog has come on to his property (breaking the law) many times and the owner has been told many times? what if the dog chases wildlife? what if the dog chases livestock? what if the dog chases the land owner or the land owners kids?

I know act like a sheep and call the police and hope they do something. which they wont. maybe a ticket or two, maybe a court appearance, maybe if they even see the animal out or can find the owner.

if its not on your property it is no longer a pet, its a wild animal and a potential threat. the story made all of you who cant think independtly think the owner is a good guy. I doubt thats the case.

I don't think the dog owner is a good guy, I think he is an asshole and irresponsible and probably has no grounds for a case against the property owner. I think the land owner should've taken a number of steps before he gunned the damn dog down. I understand and agree with the laws. I don't want to get into the what if game, if the dog had prior aggression then the blood is on the dog owners hands. If the guy just shot him because he could, that's a whole other kind of prick.

[sniper7]

As with any story, you only hear the climax initially. Dog dead, greatest dog alive that hurt nobody, dog owner crying, dog owner wants to sue, shooter is horrible person, shooter has history of being an asshole, friends of dog owner hold vigil and confirm shooter is a horrible asshole.

then the facts come out.

[thvigil11]

friends of dog owner hold "Vigil"

Why are they holding me? Does my wife know about this?

[sniper7]

Why are they holding me? Does my wife know about this?

Ive heard they really like you. You're wife should never know about this!

[Martinjmpr]

Why are they holding me? Does my wife know about this?

I won't ask and you shouldn't tell. ;)