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View Full Version : AR-15 Rifle build parts, where to start



SA Friday
01-09-2016, 10:10
Once you’ve got past the choice of buying a factory built AR and have decided to build an AR, figuring out where to start and what parts you should use are the next decisions to make. There are four parts that you should invest into first, and they are also the most critical for a good gun. The lower receiver, upper receiver, barrel, and bolt/bolt carrier group (lets consider these one part for sake of discussion). If you try to save money in these parts, your overall build will suffer.

The barrel and bolt are literally the heart of the gun and regardless of the other parts literally do the actual shooting mechanically. These parts are controlling an explosion. Think about that for a second, these two parts are taking 55,000 psi of deflagrated gas pressure every single time you pull the trigger. I am still amazed just how many times I see people try to save a buck on these parts and then suffer the ramifications of bad tolerances. I wrote a thread about barrels, it goes into detail that I will skip here.

Bolts/bolt carrier groups (BCG) are critical for cycling. I look for bolts that were magnetic particle inspected (MPI, marked on the bolt). This doesn’t change the manufacture process or material composition, but ensures there aren’t any spots of potential failure in the material of the bolt. Obviously, this doesn’t guarantee it won’t fail, but I have seen more non-marked bolts fail than marked. Other potential testing is high pressure testing (HP or HPI, marked on the bolt). I’m not convinced that HP testing is necessary or actually guarantees a better product. It doesn’t make it worse, but I can’t say it’s a make or break test.

Bolt carrier groups come in four different configurations. The most common is the M4/M16 cut BCG. They have equal cuts in the back of the BCG area. The top cut is in the same length at the bottom cut. AR15 bolts are basically the same but the bottom cut is further back than the top cut. The third is the half-moon bolt. Its bottom cut basically goes all the way back and the removes the bottom to make it look like a half moon from the rear view. Last, you have custom specialized cut BCGs. The most common of these are lightened BCG and they have cuts, holes, and amputated parts in every imaginable configuration. The biggest reason for the different BCGs is manufacturers making the AR and half moon BCGs to make the guns more compliant to anti-machinegun gun control measures. The most prominent influence was the Brady Act (1994). As the bottom cut in the BCG works in coordination with the auto sear, cutting the bottom cut in a BCG stops it from being able to work in an auto gun. The half-moon BCG does the same thing and was the horrific idea of Colt. As you can tell, I don’t approve of the half moon BCGs. They suck and can get caught up in the lower due to the bottom cut. I don’t mind the AR BCG, but I prefer the M4/M16 BCG to it also.

What about specialized bolts? Well, here is where it can get complicated. Mass and spring weight is used to get ARs to cycle with proper timing. Too fast or too slow can cause excessive wear, parts failure, jams, cats and dogs living together… all kinds of bad shit. In general, a slightly slower cycling gas system works better than too fast. As long as it still will lock the bolt back, it’s not too slow. M4/M16 BCGs being heavier have a tendency to run a little better. So why do they make lightened BCGs of every possible kind? Because of reciprocating mass. The light version explanation is the less weight bouncing back and forth during the firing cycle, the less recoil and movement in the gun. Lots of shooters, especially competition shooters, run highly specialized gear to maximize the speed and ease of shooting. It does work, but these are guns typically running reloaded ammo made for the modifications and are constantly re-tuned to run reliably. In the end, these typically cause issues more than solve issues for the average shooter. The average shooter is best served with a basic M4/16 BCG.

There are a couple of new coatings on bolts and BCGs, and even in uppers. Nickel boron (NiB) and nickel Teflon (NP3) are the two most common. I don’t have a lot of experience with NP3, but from what I’ve seen from NiB, it’s worth the extra money. A good bolt/BCG is running around $140. The same coated in NiB is about $180. The NiBs clearly run with considerably less friction. Some even run these without any additional lubricant. They are holding up to this use. They can be damaged from excessive exposure to cleaning with very basic pH cleaners. Short of that, they do run better.

Last thing about BCGs, THE GAS KEY MUST BE STAKED. I read about how it doesn’t matter all the time. Bullshit! If it isn’t staked, move along. Lock-tite won’t cut it. This thing is taking a 15,000-20,000 psi hit searing hot gas every time a round is shot. Then it’s cycling back and forth and has to cleanly slip over the gas tube. If it’s loose, you have an instant club.

Upper and lower receivers are fairly inexpensive even for really good ones. I see many cut this corner regularly too. One has to ask themselves why a company is selling a $35 lower and the reputable companies are a $100 to $135. Some of this is usually more machining and engraving. Lets face it, it costs time and money to engrave a zombie face on a lower. It’s not $100 more engraving though. It’s better material and better tolerances. Best example I can give is this; if the safety selector hole is drilled 1mm lower than it should be, it then presses on the trigger which then pushes up on the hammer and stops you from being able to install the hammer. Sure, I can custom cut parts to work, but damn. Why should I custom cut a trigger for a part that could have just as easily been in spec and now you are limited to only that trigger. Spend the money.

Uppers and lowers come in aluminum, polymer, and composites. Keep it simple, stick with the aluminum. They are stronger for the weight. I’ve seen to many of the polymers and composites have problems or crack. Aluminum uppers and lowers can be either forged or milled. Forged are thinner and lighter and equal or more strong than milled. Milled are cleaner looking with sharper edges and more variety. If you are just starting out, stick with a forged from a good company and you really can’t go wrong. If you want to save a few bucks and are planning on putting a scratch or two in the gun anyway, look into blem uppers and lowers from good companies. It’s pretty rare to actually be able to see a blem so bad it’s clearly an actual blem part. If your build is going straight for the cool-factor, milled are IMO much better looking. You might run into parts that won’t work with the milled though, they are not mil-spec. Almost all uppers and lowers are ionized finished. Many companies are now painting theirs. Either will work. Painted is usually a little more cost.

This is where to start in your build. Don’t skimp on them. You are better off spending an extra $100 on these four parts and saving on the handguard or stock. I am a huge advocate of the “cry once” principal, but if you are on a budget, still don’t cut corners going cheap on these.

Sackett
01-11-2016, 11:17
Would love to hear your thoughts on gas system selection (carbine, nid, etc) for the average shooter.

MarkCO
01-11-2016, 11:42
Staking of gas keys is NOT imperative. If you will do the research, it was an expeditious solution to an assembly problem. One of the best manufacturers in the business does not stake their gas keys.

On receivers, I would suggest only 7075T6 as they are twice as strong at the 6061, but you won't be buying them at $40 if they are 7075T6. I prefer Teflon coated upper receivers too. A sloppy fit will affect accuracy, so hand fitting or shimming might be needed. Loctite and facing receivers is usually not a good idea, especially with stainless barrels.

14.5 barrels generally are best with Carbine or mid gas. 16" with mid or intermediate, 18" with intermediate or rifle, 20" with rifle and 22" and longer with extended. Gas port size and the make-up of the reciprocating mass are important. You have to remember that is a system and a change in one part affects the operation.

ray1970
01-11-2016, 12:55
Staking of gas keys is NOT imperative.

But, it doesn't hurt and does offer some assurance that the bolts won't back out causing the key to come loose.

MarkCO
01-11-2016, 13:24
But, it doesn't hurt and does offer some assurance that the bolts won't back out causing the key to come loose.

IF done correctly, it can, not does. If done wrong, it can cause leaks and failures as well. I have NEVER seen a properly built (Av sealant and proper torque) carrier fail, but I have seen numerous carriers fail due to improper staking.

Do you realize how many "non-staked" bolts you rely on daily? Brakes, cylinder heads, lugs nuts. Fastener technology is pretty well defined and if the proper torque is applied, the combination of the stretch of the fastener and surface normal forces make staking irrelevant. By staking, one can actually change the proper torque values and add a stress riser at the thread root. This is one of those topics that is perpetuated within the community due to a lack of actual analysis (and understanding) of the connection.

KS63
01-11-2016, 13:53
If you have a sufficient clamp load, depending on the bolts material of over 80% Yield Strength, you don't need thread lock, staking, lock washers or thjngs that we have been accustomed to using. You also need to account for the material that you're attaching together and their thermal expansion properties. A steel bolt in an aluminum connecting rod, for example, has a different expansion rate. It's possible to stretch that bolt to 80% of its Yield strength, yet the bolt may fail because the aluminum expands faster than steel, thereby increasing the stretch on the bolt. I have lots of examples of this if any of you want to see it. I can give you a tour of the shop.

SA Friday
01-11-2016, 16:16
IF done correctly, it can, not does. If done wrong, it can cause leaks and failures as well. I have NEVER seen a properly built (Av sealant and proper torque) carrier fail, but I have seen numerous carriers fail due to improper staking.

Do you realize how many "non-staked" bolts you rely on daily? Brakes, cylinder heads, lugs nuts. Fastener technology is pretty well defined and if the proper torque is applied, the combination of the stretch of the fastener and surface normal forces make staking irrelevant. By staking, one can actually change the proper torque values and add a stress riser at the thread root. This is one of those topics that is perpetuated within the community due to a lack of actual analysis (and understanding) of the connection.
So, you stance is if it failed it wasn't done correctly, and if it doesn't fail it was properly built. Ya, ok...

Your OPINION is noted and incorrect. I have seen properly built non-staked keys fail. I have yet to see a staked key from a reputable company fail. I'm sure it's happened. Everyone makes a lemon eventually. You can physically see and inspect the staking. Short of some mystical force of magic, can one determine a key is "properly" sealed and torqued. This is a guide for people beginning and learning, not 3 gun shooters.

Seriously, the AR world doesn't revolve around competition shooting. Competition guns are different. They run the edge, play with non-typical gear, and then newbies get the impression they need stuff like that. Do you know how many JP buffer spring abortions and $250 light carrier groups I pull out of guns that don't run a month? At least 3. That's hundred of dollars wasted by new shooters and builders because of bullshit like this.

Anything else you want to correct in my posts this week Mark?

MarkCO
01-11-2016, 17:18
My reply has nothing to do with building competition guns, nor opinion at all. Sorry your feelings got hurt, but when you state something that is inaccurate on a forum, is there not an invitation for discussion. If you want to say things and not have them refuted, fine, but that would not be a forum. The problems you are seeing is due to improperly balanced systems, not the parts themselves.

If you think what you said is right, why not let your words stand instead and let forum members see what they think instead of spewing hostility?

ray1970
01-11-2016, 19:55
Do you realize how many "non-staked" bolts you rely on daily?

Most of the critical fasteners I deal with on a daily basis rely on some sort of secondary retention as a fail safe, even when properly torqued. I don't assemble bolt carriers for a living but since lock wire, a retaining plate, or pinning the heads of the bolts with dowels seems a bit impractical in that application, I guess I'll have to settle for them being staked to give me a little piece of mind that they won't back loose.

MarkCO
01-11-2016, 20:01
http://youngmanufacturing.net/assets/images/Gas%20Key%20Letter.pdf

ray1970
01-11-2016, 20:16
http://youngmanufacturing.net/assets/images/Gas%20Key%20Letter.pdf

See. They admit that staking "keeps the screws from backing out". Which is why I prefer mine to be staked. [Neene1]

SA Friday
01-11-2016, 20:17
My reply has nothing to do with building competition guns, nor opinion at all. Sorry your feelings got hurt, but when you state something that is inaccurate on a forum, is there not an invitation for discussion. If you want to say things and not have them refuted, fine, but that would not be a forum. The problems you are seeing is due to improperly balanced systems, not the parts themselves.

If you think what you said is right, why not let your words stand instead and let forum members see what they think instead of spewing hostility?

Mark, my skin is way thicker than that. Unfortunately, many here don't know the difference between your opinion and truth. I do. You have no idea what I've seen. You have no clue at all. I see mis timed systems regularly. I also see the turmoil that advice like yours causes. If you want to refute things on a forum, expect to be told you are incorrect when you are incorrect.

As for the Young Manufacturing letter you posted, LOL, you want to see the YM in my 18 inch that came loose and had to be staked afterward? They are EXACTLY the manufacturer I am talking about. But... you clearly know better.

Irving
01-11-2016, 20:27
Is it safe to say the middle ground is that bolt carriers should be able to not be staked if assembled properly, but they aren't assembled properly, so they should be staked?

ray1970
01-11-2016, 20:43
Mate we can just split the difference and stake one bolt and not both.

MarkCO
01-11-2016, 20:43
Irving, if the seal is made and the torque level required is not quite enough, then staking can keep it operating for a long useful life. If the torque level is much too low, then the stress riser from staking can cause fracture and result in a loose key, and leakage, with a bolt head that looks okay. There are a LOT of sloppy and counterfeit parts out on the market over the last few years, so buyer beware is good advice on carriers and bolts as well. A gas key that is properly sealed and torqued, and then properly staked, sure, there is not a thing wrong with it and boots and suspenders is not bad at all.

ray1970, :)

ray1970
01-11-2016, 20:54
If I were installing a gas key I would lap the key to the carrier for a good fit, put a bit of permatex #2 under it, torque it to spec, and then find some way to secure the bolts. Staking would be a pain without a special tool. Maybe I'd cross drill the key and bolt heads and drive in some small roll pins or something.

Fortunately, I have no plans to assembly one so my Frankenstein plans will not have to make anyone here cringe.

Great-Kazoo
01-11-2016, 23:55
If I were installing a gas key I would lap the key to the carrier for a good fit, put a bit of permatex #2 under it, torque it to spec, and then find some way to secure the bolts. Staking would be a pain without a special tool. Maybe I'd cross drill the key and bolt heads and drive in some small roll pins or something.

Fortunately, I have no plans to assembly one so my Frankenstein plans will not have to make anyone here cringe.

Not the correct tool, however a center punch works. IMO cross drilling "might" weaken the key. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

encorehunter
01-12-2016, 08:56
If I were installing a gas key I would lap the key to the carrier for a good fit, put a bit of permatex #2 under it, torque it to spec, and then find some way to secure the bolts. Staking would be a pain without a special tool. Maybe I'd cross drill the key and bolt heads and drive in some small roll pins or something.

Fortunately, I have no plans to assembly one so my Frankenstein plans will not have to make anyone here cringe.

I'm thinking I have a nice little mig welder. If I were to run a bead around the entire head of each screw and then take it to the grinder to smooth it out, it should stay put.

Crap. I forgot, all great home gunsmiths use a dremel tool, not a grinder.

KS63
01-12-2016, 11:19
You could TIG weld the key to the carrier, that's an option if you'd like. A better idea is, and I don't have a BCG in front of me to measure, would be larger bolts for a higher Yield or higher quality bolt material for a higher clamp load. Go piston system if you can't seem to keep your gas keys on. Never knew this was a problem.

fly boy
01-21-2016, 21:36
Would love to hear your thoughts on gas system selection (carbine, nid, etc) for the average shooter.


THIS PLEASE!

I would prefer a 16" BBL, but most are carbine gas length. Should I compromise with either a 18" BBL and middy, or 16" and carbine?

Great-Kazoo
01-21-2016, 21:47
THIS PLEASE!

I would prefer a 16" BBL, but most are carbine gas length. Should I compromise with either a 18" BBL and middy, or 16" and carbine?

There are as many 16" mid length bbls on the market, as carbine length.

KS63
01-22-2016, 18:53
THIS PLEASE!

I would prefer a 16" BBL, but most are carbine gas length. Should I compromise with either a 18" BBL and middy, or 16" and carbine?
Depends. What do you plan on using your rifle for? Different tools for different jobs. I have rifles with different gas system lengths and buffer/spring/BCG combos. They were spec'd by me for what I intend to use them for.

nisils14
01-23-2016, 03:45
THIS PLEASE!

I would prefer a 16" BBL, but most are carbine gas length. Should I compromise with either a 18" BBL and middy, or 16" and carbine?

I prefer a mid-length 16" over a carbine. Some of the carbine 16s I've shot were noticeably harsh, carbine system was originally intended for 14.5" iirc.

SA Friday
01-24-2016, 13:51
Would love to hear your thoughts on gas system selection (carbine, nid, etc) for the average shooter.
I'm working on a write-up for this and a bit more. I'm not done with the research for it yet. I'm hoping to cover gas system timing without going "engineer" but with enough info to hopefully clear away some of the voodoo of the topic. Over the last year, I have worked on one gun that literally has been voodoo, off the normal charts, PITA to get to run reliably. Very specialized guns result in very specialized issues.

In general most AR's are going to run with whatever gas system length is in place. It's a matter of refining the timing to get it to cycle reliably. Some systems are easier than others. Here's a basic list of the ones I've seen run fairly well without running into issues.

5.56/223 Rem/Wylde
Shorter than 10.3" (mostly pistol, I don't recommend below 10.3" barrel length but they can be done)
10.3/10.5" Carbine length
11.5-12.5" Carbine length
14.5-16" Carbine or mid
18" Mid, intermediate, sometimes rifle (I have seen a couple rifle length ones be too soft and need the gas ports opened up. Great if they run, PITA to triage when they don't.)
20" and longer Rifle

300 AAC Blk/Whisper
All lengths Pistol (Every finicky 300 I've seen was a carbine length gas system. It's basically a pistol round when it comes to gas production. I relate it a lot to 44 Special in this respect.)

As a generality, shorter gas systems are more harsh in recoil, dirtier running, and more reliable when filthy. Longer gas systems run with less recoil, cleaner, and start to jam sooner when not cleaned. These are drastic generalities as the gas ports and other factors do play into the differences. As it stands, manufacturers don't follow any set standardization into gas port sizes based on barrel length. I'm working on a thread about timing and gas systems. It's not near ready though.

KS63
01-24-2016, 16:36
We're the finicky 300 Blackout's with carbine gas using subsonics or supers? What weight buffer?

SA Friday
01-24-2016, 16:56
We're the finicky 300 Blackout's with carbine gas using subsonics or supers? What weight buffer?
Not necessarily sonic or sub, but the lighter the powder charge, the worse the problem. It's easier to see with the subs as they are being forced to stay below 1100ish, but it happens with cheap target loads with light bullets too.

300 Blk is standard spring and carbine buffer, period. Anything heavier is crazy.

MarkCO
01-24-2016, 16:58
I guess I need to go tell all those 300BOs I have built that they can run anymore. LOL

KS63
01-24-2016, 18:47
My Blackout uses a carbine gas system with a .109" gas port. It's more than enough to cycle with authority using supers and a VLTOR A5 buffer and spring. It's actually a little over gassed.

SA Friday
01-24-2016, 20:00
I guess I need to go tell all those 300BOs I have built that they can run anymore. LOL

I would be happy if you just told your keyboard to not to run anymore. You seem to know everything, but never actually contribute. Always just sniping from the back. Write something up and actually give some of your pedantic wisdom to the group, Mark. Stupid like yours keeps me busy at work.

Lots of 300 Whisper/Blk carbine barrels out there. Some run fine on the system, some don't. You want it to run, do a pistol length gas system. You want to run the edge and have to fuck with it to get it to run, get a carbine and run the "gotta get it to shoot softer" ideology. If you are never going to take your suppressor off, you might be happy.

SA Friday
01-24-2016, 20:07
My Blackout uses a carbine gas system with a .109" gas port. It's more than enough to cycle with authority using supers and a VLTOR A5 buffer and spring. It's actually a little over gassed.
OK, how does it run with light target loads and subsonic?

I'm fairly certain the A5 is a proprietary system that has multiple buffer weights and a 44 coil round wire spring. What weight buffer are you running?

MarkCO
01-24-2016, 20:48
I would be happy if you just told your keyboard to not to run anymore. You seem to know everything, but never actually contribute. Always just sniping from the back. Write something up and actually give some of your pedantic wisdom to the group, Mark. Stupid like yours keeps me busy at work.

Lots of 300 Whisper/Blk carbine barrels out there. Some run fine on the system, some don't. You want it to run, do a pistol length gas system. You want to run the edge and have to fuck with it to get it to run, get a carbine and run the "gotta get it to shoot softer" ideology. If you are never going to take your suppressor off, you might be happy.

I do help people everyday, but you have no clue. I hope you enjoy your self-anointed ignorance.

KS63
01-24-2016, 21:28
OK, how does it run with light target loads and subsonic?

I'm fairly certain the A5 is a proprietary system that has multiple buffer weights and a 44 coil round wire spring. What weight buffer are you running?
Off the top of my head I can't remember the buffer weight. I'll take it out and weigh it on an Ohaus scale tomorrow. I'm thinking it was 5.2oz or something. This barrel was designed to run with factory supersonic loads. It may not run reliably with subs or possibly light loads, hence I say you must build the rifle around your goals for it. If you do that, it doesn't matter what gas, buffer weight, spring or load You use compared to the next guy. If I wanted to run light loads or subs, I'd go pistol length. Supers? Carbine gas. Now you throw barrel length in the mix and gas port size...different animal. What size gas ports were in those carbine gas barrels? Early on in the Blackouts rollout, manufacturers were under sizing the port for the gas system length. Everyone thought the caliber was crap.

SA Friday
01-24-2016, 23:03
Off the top of my head I can't remember the buffer weight. I'll take it out and weigh it on an Ohaus scale tomorrow. I'm thinking it was 5.2oz or something. This barrel was designed to run with factory supersonic loads. It may not run reliably with subs or possibly light loads, hence I say you must build the rifle around your goals for it. If you do that, it doesn't matter what gas, buffer weight, spring or load You use compared to the next guy. If I wanted to run light loads or subs, I'd go pistol length. Supers? Carbine gas. Now you throw barrel length in the mix and gas port size...different animal. What size gas ports were in those carbine gas barrels? Early on in the Blackouts rollout, manufacturers were under sizing the port for the gas system length. Everyone thought the caliber was crap.
I agree with most of what you are saying here, but why use a carbine gas system and sacrifice the ability to shoot subs and supers reliably? Why chase the ghost of a softer shooting gun when they shoot soft already and sacrifice capability and reliability? Noveske doesn't make a carbine. Ballistic Advantage doesn't either. Daniels Defense only makes the 16" in carbine. Rainier makes both but only 14.5" and 16" in carbine. They make them in pistol too. Pistol length shoots both just fine. Carbine won't without jumping through hoops if ever. The caliber is awesome, but there has been a learning curve. Pistol vs carbine gas systems was one of them.

The A5 buffer if not changed should be 5.3oz (aprox).

KS63
01-25-2016, 00:33
Why did I choose a carbine gas system in a 16" platform rather than pistol to shoot subs AND super? I answered your question in my previous post. I spec'd my rifle for supersonic rounds. Period. I don't intend to shoot subsonic ammo. With a .109" gas port and supers, it doesn't need more gas to function. I'm not going to needlessly batter my rifles action when it's not necessary for reliable function. I'm not taking this rifle into battle nor is used for home defense. It's built to kill feral hogs. Do you put 9lb recoil spring in a 10mm pistol just because you know it'll function with factory powder puff ammo and hot handloads? Hell no. Not trying to be combative or anything, just stating again that the rifle needs to suit the purpose.

SA Friday
01-25-2016, 00:57
Why did I choose a carbine gas system in a 16" platform rather than pistol to shoot subs AND super? I answered your question in my previous post. I spec'd my rifle for supersonic rounds. Period. I don't intend to shoot subsonic ammo. With a .109" gas port and supers, it doesn't need more gas to function. I'm not going to needlessly batter my rifles action when it's not necessary for reliable function. I'm not taking this rifle into battle nor is used for home defense. It's built to kill feral hogs. Do you put 9lb recoil spring in a 10mm pistol just because you know it'll function with factory powder puff ammo and hot handloads? Hell no. Not trying to be combative or anything, just stating again that the rifle needs to suit the purpose.
OK, I get that you made a specialized rifle. It's definitely not what I would recommend to someone reading a thread about where to start with an AR build. See where I'm coming from...