View Full Version : Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters TAKE 2
Well, now it is clear why the Sheriff is on the side of the Feds - He used to be one:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/10/another-unbelievable-update-why-does-harney-county-sheriff-david-ward-want-hammond-family-story-hidden/
Sheriff David Ward formerly worked for the Federal Bureau of Land Management and appears to have actually been a witness against the Hammond family in the ridiculous federal terrorism trial back in 2012.
Obviously, now that “Rangeland Specialist” Dave Ward is now Sheriff Dave Ward, he would not want the larger public to understand his complicity in the prosecution of the Hammond family. Nor would he have any motive or intent to protect Dwight or Steven Hammond from the appealed second set of sentences which were demanded by activist U.S. Attorney Amanda Marshall.
Small town corruption.
Mmm...may be why he made the public statement that the occupiers do not represent the community.
Interesting to hear about his checkered past.
Mmm...may be why he made the public statement that the occupiers do not represent the community.
I've seen some posts where the community doesn't seem too happy with the armed occupied force either. I'm not supporting one side or the other, simply because I don't know enough about the entirety of the situation. I just hope it all ends peacefully.
I've seen some posts where the community doesn't seem too happy with the armed occupied force either. I'm not supporting one side or the other, simply because I don't know enough about the entirety of the situation. I just hope it all ends peacefully.
I'm the same way, don't know enough. I know that I'm no fan of the BLM "managing" so much land out here in the west.
That's interesting.
The original sentencing for the Hammonds would have reflected any influence. That sentence was served, case should have been closed. It wasn't the Sheriff who pulled the Hammonds back into court demanding more time. Of course, one never knows what conversations were had.
At any rate, what is being done to the Hammonds is criminal. The rest of us better think long and hard about how "ranchers" who literally put food on our tables are being treated. I like steak. I like hard working people being able to keep their pay/land. So what is BLM's mission in the radical transformation?
HoneyBadger
01-11-2016, 09:57
Interesting to hear about his checkered past.
[facepalm]
PugnacAutMortem
01-11-2016, 10:02
Interesting to hear about his checkered past.
[LOL]
Lighten up Badger, that's freaking hilarious!
HoneyBadger
01-11-2016, 10:26
[LOL]
Lighten up Badger, that's freaking hilarious!
Oh I'm light. Just wanted to give Irving a facepalm for that painful (but clever) pun. I like puns.
HoneyBadger
01-11-2016, 10:29
And because it seems to be gone with the first version of this thread, I want to reiterate how concerned I am that thousands of Americans are openly advocating the murder of these people. And they are all too happy to ask their jack-booted thugs Friendly-Government-with-their-best-interests-at-heart to do it for them.
And because it seems to be gone with the first version of this thread, I want to reiterate how concerned I am that thousands of Americans are openly advocating the murder of these people. And they are all too happy to ask their jack-booted thugs Friendly-Government-with-their-best-interests-at-heart to do it for them.
Reminds me of the Waco raid. Before I knew the facts of that case, I was one of those who wanted them killed. However, once I found out what was really taking place, my views drastically changed. Waco was before the Internet provided instant access to all sides of the story. Today, no-one has an excuse to be ignorant.
And because it seems to be gone with the first version of this thread, I want to reiterate how concerned I am that thousands of Americans are openly advocating the murder of these people. And they are all too happy to ask their jack-booted thugs Friendly-Government-with-their-best-interests-at-heart to do it for them.
They probably tweet about killing those guys between watching episodes of Making a Murderer on Netflix.
I just pray for the people there and all those courageous enough to resist tyranny.
[facepalm]
[LOL]
Lighten up Badger, that's freaking hilarious!
HoneyBadger is always light. I'm just glad anyone picked up on that. :D
HoneyBadger
01-11-2016, 15:28
HoneyBadger is always light. I'm just glad anyone picked up on that. :D
Easy there, Pickles... ;)
https://youtu.be/1A399pZzEUk
I agree with Rex 100 % this isn't the fight to pick.
https://youtu.be/1A399pZzEUk
I agree with Rex 100 % this isn't the fight to pick.
I've never herd of Rex before, but what I got out of this particular video seemed uninformed lecturing from a couple of self-important "dudes."
The men in Oregon are not arguing over the 2nd Amendment, as Rex is so concerned. Rex does not agree, fine, but don't lecture to the men willing to put their lives on the line for something they have lived for some time, and have decided to take a stand against a government that has been encroaching on their lives for years and picking up momentum. Rex could have at least gotten a bit better informed concerning the back story and history of the ongoing conflict in Oregon and throughout the West before pontificating on the subject.
sellersm
01-13-2016, 18:51
You can listen to Ammon Bundy's own version of the story here (direct link to the MP3 audio file). From an interview with Dave Hodges on the 11th. Ammon joins at about 22 minutes in...
http://mediaarchives.gsradio.net/commonsenseshow/011116.mp3
wctriumph
01-13-2016, 19:29
All of that land that is called government land is really supposed to be public land held in trust for the citizens of the United States of America for the use of the citizens. It is supposed to managed in a responsible manner to allow for varied use by the citizens. The politicians appoint managers and the managers manage the land according to the wishes of those that gave them their job of managing these lands held in trust for all of us. It has become a broken system run by corrupt bought and paid for politicians.
The special interest groups or persons pay off the politicians to get what they want and we, the good people pay our money to lawyers to sue over the wrongdoing to make it right for all, then someone gets another bribe and we start all over again.
Remember Barstow to Vegas and the Phantom Duck of the Desert!
I can share later tonight, but I was sent a link by an army buddy of mine who we share veteran related things back and forth, and the article he sent me was a huge expose (so to speak) about how most of the "Patriots" doing this and the Bundy ranch thing, claim to be former military, but actually are not. Its things like this, and crazy anti-federal guys that hurt the cause. I'm all for civil disobedience if done right. Each time something like this comes up I can't help but think "Oh great, another stand-off that hurts us more than helps us." Just my .02
Is this the same article with the removed videos of them crying and taking donation money to go to the bar?
Martinjmpr
01-14-2016, 12:59
I don't know how many of you follow This Ain't Hell but they've been all over this story. While there are some bonafide veterans there are also more than a few fakers, embellishers and other loudmouthed idiots.
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=63854
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=63837
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=63790
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=63663
Keep in mind, This Ain't Hell is about as right wing as you can get.
I've never herd of Rex before, but what I got out of this particular video seemed uninformed lecturing from a couple of self-important "dudes."
The men in Oregon are not arguing over the 2nd Amendment, as Rex is so concerned. Rex does not agree, fine, but don't lecture to the men willing to put their lives on the line for something they have lived for some time, and have decided to take a stand against a government that has been encroaching on their lives for years and picking up momentum. Rex could have at least gotten a bit better informed concerning the back story and history of the ongoing conflict in Oregon and throughout the West before pontificating on the subject.
Unless you have heard something different the story I keep getting from the Hammonds and other Oregonians is that they do not want the Bundys or anybody else taking over government buildings in their name as a show of support. The Hammonds had their day in court, which is what they wanted.
I can't think of a group of armed individuals that took over a U.S.
Federal Building in protest that then proved their point and got their way.
Unless you have heard something different the story I keep getting from the Hammonds and other Oregonians is that they do not want the Bundys or anybody else taking over government buildings in their name as a show of support. The Hammonds had their day in court, which is what they wanted.
I can't think of a group of armed individuals that took over a U.S.
Federal Building in protest that then proved their point and got their way.
The Bundy group are protesting much more than just the Hammond's case, and I believe the locals are under a bit of duress considering who their sheriff is.
Libs have had sit-ins for decades - often getting what they want.
The Bundy group are protesting much more than just the Hammond's case, and I believe the locals are under a bit of duress considering who their sheriff is.
Libs have had sit-ins for decades - often getting what they want.
If it goes well and they get what they want great! If it ends in bloodshed and defeat what then?
If it goes well and they get what they want great! If it ends in bloodshed and defeat what then?
Unknown. Could have any number of results.
So now, the County Fire Chief is resigning after discovering undercover FBI agents posing as militia members and snooping around the County Armory.
Judge Grasty, also a county commissioner, along with Sheriff Dave Ward, are the county officials who have been promoting the community fear and telling the community about the dangerous militia.
When Chief Briels told Judge Grasty about the undercover FBI agents posing as militia, the fire chief was told to shut up and back off. Fire Chief Briels told Judge Grasty he would not keep quiet and he was going to tell the public what was happening.
Good explanation why the locals are not openly siding with the Bundys.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/15/oregon-standoff-update-fbi-caught-posing-as-militia-trying-to-scare-county-residents/#more-111022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=421&v=SB6m7x3QDAg
Kinda makes a guy wonder if the government is trying to provoke something.
milwaukeeshaker
01-15-2016, 09:40
Yes! We the people own the land. See the tenth amendment.
All of that land that is called government land is really supposed to be public land held in trust for the citizens of the United States of America for the use of the citizens. It is supposed to managed in a responsible manner to allow for varied use by the citizens. The politicians appoint managers and the managers manage the land according to the wishes of those that gave them their job of managing these lands held in trust for all of us. It has become a broken system run by corrupt bought and paid for politicians.
The special interest groups or persons pay off the politicians to get what they want and we, the good people pay our money to lawyers to sue over the wrongdoing to make it right for all, then someone gets another bribe and we start all over again.
Remember Barstow to Vegas and the Phantom Duck of the Desert!
Yes! We the people own the land. See the tenth amendment.
I regret to inform you, the Tenth Amendment was virtually repealed at Appomattox Courthouse.
As a southerner, I take no joy in stating this. By virtual, I mean that too many today believe that words, like those in the Constitution, virtually mean whatever lawyers say they mean (see Justice Bader Ginsburg).
Davsel, I really appreciate your following this so closely and updating this thread for everyone.
Davsel, I really appreciate your following this so closely and updating this thread for everyone.
I get most of the updates straight from http://theconservativetreehouse.com/ (http://theconservativetreehouse.com). I just pass them on.
The guys running TheConservativeTreehouse have done a great job in the past with researching and consolidating info on various newsworthy topics, and they always provide links to their sources.
I started following them during the Travon Martin nonsense.
http://www.gq.com/story/oregon-militia-dummies-dicks-in-the-mail
[LOL]
https://youtu.be/voAcldhGkYU
Interesting take on the current situation.
I like this guy's YT channel, got a lot of good info on long range shooting.
Wife is saying shots fired up there. One guy dead and Bundy arrested.
CNN is still reporting about Trump not going to a debate.
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/lockdown-harney-county/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/militia-leader-ammon-bundy-arrested-in-oregon/
hollohas
01-26-2016, 21:44
Sounds like they were on the way to another meeting, got pulled over and gun fight started.
EDIT: The feds picked up many other "militants", as the media calls them, today too in multiple locations. Sounds to me like this was not just a traffic stop but an organized and planned arrest of the protesters.
Also arrested were his brother, Ammon Bundy, 40, of Emmett, Idaho, and Ryan W. Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Mont., Brian Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville, Nevada, and Shawna J. Cox, 59, of Kanab, Utah. They were charged with conspiracy to impede federal officers, a felony.
The identity of the person killed in the shootout was not released by authorities, but the daughter of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, 55, of Arizona, said her father was to be part of the entourage going to John Day.
Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife Lisa Bundy from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.
Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.
In Burns, Oregon State Police also arrested Joseph D. O'Shaughnessy, 45, Cottonwood, Arizona. He is known in militia circles as "Captain."
Several hours later, Jon Ritzheimer, 32, a key militant leader, surrendered to police on the conspiracy charge. He gained national fame for complaining on a video about the delivery of sex toys to the refuge in response to the occupiers' plea for supplies.
Police also arrested Pete Santilli, an independent broadcaster known for his aggressive manner and live streaming refuge events. Details of his charges couldn't immediately be learned.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html
In retrospect, then leaving the compound all the time was going to be their downfall. All the Feds had to do was let them get comfortable with that freedom and then pick them off whenever they wanted. It seems foolish to have everyone leaving in groups at the same time. Not that I'd know how to handle that situation or anything.
hollohas
01-26-2016, 22:02
Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore said that Ammon Bundy called his wife, Lisa Bundy, from the back of a police car on Tuesday night.
Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html
I would expect that with such a high profile situation and arrest, one that anyone could easily predict would go bad, that LE had cameras rolling. I'm guessing the above quote likely isn't true (partially because I don't think he would have gotten a phone call from the patrol car after a shoot out and felony arrest) but the report alone could get more people worked up. Let's hope the police release the videos quickly to keep this from getting any more out of control.
hollohas
01-26-2016, 22:08
https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/czsd5unwaaedox.jpg?w=978
In retrospect, then leaving the compound all the time was going to be their downfall. All the Feds had to do was let them get comfortable with that freedom and then pick them off whenever they wanted. It seems foolish to have everyone leaving in groups at the same time. Not that I'd know how to handle that situation or anything.
Which is the smart way to do it. It's a goddamned shame that someone has been killed during this. It'll be interesting to see if these dummies take it as a more direct call to action or not. Hopefully not and they do the smart thing and leave while they're still allowed to.
This was never going to end good, and it's happening sooner than later.
Bailey Guns
01-27-2016, 07:38
Tough way to try to make a point that most people disagreed with...right or wrong.
ETA: These guys break the law, don't hurt anyone, LE at the state and local level is all over it. Hillary Clinton breaks the law, is derelict in her duty, 4 Americans (at least) die because of it, LE still deciding whether or not she did anything wrong. Is it me or is there a glaring double standard when it comes to investigating and prosecuting those in power? (That's a rhetorical question, BTW...)
CNN is trying to not even mention that anyone was killed. I've not been involved in this, but to me that's a bad sign if news is hiding it.
KestrelBike
01-27-2016, 09:59
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/bundys_in_custody_one_militant.html
I would expect that with such a high profile situation and arrest, one that anyone could easily predict would go bad, that LE had cameras rolling. I'm guessing the above quote likely isn't true (partially because I don't think he would have gotten a phone call from the patrol car after a shoot out and felony arrest) but the report alone could get more people worked up. Let's hope the police release the videos quickly to keep this from getting any more out of control.
If he was placed in the back of the squad car, wouldn't they have confiscated his belongings first for safety/security? (and so how could he have made a phone call from the car?) I know he might not have been under "arrest" at that point, but still, it's not like he was a house-wife in her gown who's house was burning down so the cop let her warm up in the back of his vehicle.
CNN is trying to not even mention that anyone was killed. I've not been involved in this, but to me that's a bad sign if news is hiding it.
CNN mentioned the death last night when the interrupted the debate talk to announce it.
If he was placed in the back of the squad car, wouldn't they have confiscated his belongings first for safety/security? (and so how could he have made a phone call from the car?) I know he might not have been under "arrest" at that point, but still, it's not like he was a house-wife in her gown who's house was burning down so the cop let her warm up in the back of his vehicle.
If I'm the FBI and I want those guys out of there peacefully, I let the leader I just snatched up peacefully call the rest of the people to let them know the gig is up.
KestrelBike
01-27-2016, 10:39
If I'm the FBI and I want those guys out of there peacefully, I let the leader I just snatched up peacefully call the rest of the people to let them know the gig is up.
But what if he uses that call to rile up his people further and make things even worse? Wouldn't the FBI want to lean on him first and/or let him calm down a bit so they can help him not act out of panic/spite?
But what if he uses that call to rile up his people further and make things even worse? Wouldn't the FBI want to lean on him first and/or let him calm down a bit so they can help him not act out of panic/spite?
Always a risk, but with the freedom and communication with these guys, they probably had a pretty good lock on the situation. Also, we don't know that they didn't let him calm down a bit. I am pretty interested to hear how the details of this shooting shake out in the end.
hollohas
01-27-2016, 10:59
I don't believe for a second that they would let him have his phone in the back of a patrol car. That's just against all proper procedures especially when it's a felony arrest and after a deadly incident. No handcuffs? Yeah right.
That doesn't mean I don't believe the family. It may have went down the way they say or not. I dunno. I just don't think he was sitting in the back of the car when and if he made a call.
I don't know if it would make a difference, but is it possible that he was allowed to make a call after being arrested at all? Just because he allegedly called someone, doesn't mean it was from his phone.
Sounds like the leaders made a mistake of trust...got them out in the open under truce to talk at a town meeting and then forcefully detained them. It sure wasn't the smartest move. Isn't the issue of trust in the government the reason why they are there in the first place? As far as the encounter; I have no idea because I wasn't there and I certainly don't trust what is being reported.
Anyone know where Lon Horiuchi was last night?
Just askin
Anyone know where Lon Horiuchi was last night?
Just askin
Sounds like he might have just shown up.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/media-fbi-oregon-refuge?utm_content=buffer62a72&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Yep, remove the media, and then take down the protesters.
Reports are coming in that the guy who was shot jumped out of the vehicle with gun drawn. Said he'd rather die than be arrested, etc, etc.
kidicarus13
01-27-2016, 12:44
Cue the fed incendiary device to start the fire. Allow media back in to view ashes. Blame dead protestors for using propane lanterns.
KestrelBike
01-27-2016, 12:51
Yep, remove the media, and then take down the protesters.
Queue the fed incendiary device to start the fire. Allow media back in to view ashes. Blame dead protestors for using propane lanterns.
I didn't have much faith in the media, but if those AP reporters (and any other media who says "Oh, danger? Better pack it in!") actually leave and let the gov 'do it's thing, then... just wow. That's the stuff conspiracies are made of.
Edit: I just realized the utter shame of the situation where I actually have to consider depending on the media being there to make sure the gov doesn't slaughter people. Wow.
HoneyBadger
01-27-2016, 13:31
If this is ending the way it appears to be, I think it's just going to turn them into martyrs and give more traction to their cause.
If I were one of the guys at the MNWR headquarters, I would be doing everything possible to keep the media there. If a tree falls in the forest and the media isn't there to report on it, did it ever happen?
Yeah this is going to happen... Media is leaving
Sent by a free-range electronic weasel, with no sense of personal space.
Lol, listen to this nutter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM
Makes it hard to sympathize with them if he's running around.
Firehaus
01-27-2016, 13:52
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/1cc1ab58629e3f60dc6b9b29b14e20ad.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HoneyBadger
01-27-2016, 14:36
Lol, listen to this nutter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM
Makes it hard to sympathize with them if he's running around.
Jesus.... [Shake]
Lol, listen to this nutter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM
Makes it hard to sympathize with them if he's running around.
Oh, that's unfortunate.[off-yourself]
Bailey Guns
01-27-2016, 17:38
They need the PR people that the inner city folks use. Everyone loves them and feels sorry for them.
Uhh...not everyone.
Lol, listen to this nutter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72MJLxSTiGM
Makes it hard to sympathize with them if he's running around.
Well, if I truly believed that I were about to be unjustly murdered, I'm not sure how'd I'd portray myself.
Kraven251
01-28-2016, 17:44
If law enforcement has any video evidence that Lavoy Finicum did something that prompted him getting shot, I would be making it public. This isn't like the hood rats that burn their town down. This is causing an eyebrow to be raised by much more organized and invested people. I would hope that LE would want to ensure things did not escalate further.
You get some trigger happy dipshit like waco or ruby ridge, and with the climate in the country right now...I sincerely fear that medicine, clean water, and a functional power grid could suddenly become luxuries.
hollohas
01-28-2016, 18:21
Local news there is reporting that there is a video and LE is deciding if they should release it or not.
hollohas
01-28-2016, 20:37
The Feds just showed the aerial footage.
2nd vehicle in the convoy stopped immediately. 1st vehicle (white suv) kept going for a bit and stopped. After being stopped for a couple minutes, one guy gets out with hands up. Vehicle then takes off a short time later.
White SUV travels a ways down the road, comes upon roadblock, tries to avoid it and crashes into snow. Driver exits, with hands up, moves away from vehicle and then appears to reach down. He is then shot.
No shots fired by protesters at any time. Not really a "shootout" as described by the media.
One of the 3 or 4 different witness accounts we've heard over the last two days seems to very accurately describe the event. The only difference from the nost accurate account and the police fed report is that the witness said the driver took off only after shots were fired at the vehicle by police. The police did not mentioned that in their brief. If that is true or not is unclear for the aerial footage.
hollohas
01-28-2016, 21:28
What I also understand from independent reports is that the group applied for county approval to hold a town hall meeting in Burns a couple weeks ago but were denied. This week, they were "invited" to a town hall meeting 70 miles away. And the Feds just so happened to know exactly where and when. Hum. It was a setup. And they fell for it. It was not a "traffic stop" but I think that was clear. There were aircraft, roadblocks, many, many vehicles. What's not clear is why the feds didn't arrest these guys at any point during the last few weeks. They were moving around freely. Heck, Bundy went to see his family in Idaho at one point from what I've read. Instead, the Feds setup a meeting where they knew a bunch of them would go, made sure it was far enough away that they could attempt the arrest away from civilians. The feds outplayed these guys bigtime.
Also, the Feds have every bit of the impressive surveillance capabilities as the military. Looked to me like the aerial footage was drone footage. I guess no surprise there either.
Heres a link that has video. http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/70045006-Video-FBI-fatally-shoots-armed-Ore-occupier-during-traffic-stop
As far as almost hitting the officer that article says, kinda officers fault for leaping in front of the truck basically. Looks like officer behind him might have been first to shoot. He as article says soon after truck was reaching into his pocket repeatedly. They state he did have a handgun in there. Maybe he was doing something dumb like trying to toss it down. Who knows but was a bad move. That he reached so many times makes me almost wonder if he was trying to provoke being shot.
hollohas
01-28-2016, 22:05
The video makes it pretty clear why they shot him. Can't be reaching into your jacket when everyone believes you're armed to the teeth.
I found it peculiar that the video was cut at the exact point in the situation the one witness said was when the police fired on the stopped white truck just prior to it taking off.
????
EDIT: I watched a version longer than what they showed in the press conference, it did not cut out. Not sure what happened there. But during the press conference they said one man exited the stopped truck and surrendered before it took off, saying "you can't see it because of the trees." However, watching the longer video 3 times now, it sure doesn't look like anyone exited that truck. Dunno... What am I missing?
As far as almost hitting the officer that article says, kinda officers fault for leaping in front of the truck basically.
In my opinion, there is no kind of at all. What a stupid move. That officer is lucky he is alive at all.
Way too far removed to know for sure, but it looked like his gun stuck in his pocket to me. If I was a cop in that situation with people I know or have a very strong suspicion are armed and they are wrestling something from their pocket, I'm shooting.
HoneyBadger
01-28-2016, 23:21
Interesting that they had at least one agent in the woods off the side of the road... And then either he, or the agents in the road, were shooting at each other.. What are the rules of gun safety??? BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT... One agent is lucky he didn't get run over, the rest are all lucky they didn't shoot each other.
Obviously a set up. Bad move for the militia folks, possibly a bad more for the Feds. We'll see.
Way too far removed to know for sure, but it looked like his gun stuck in his pocket to me. If I was a cop in that situation with people I know or have a very strong suspicion are armed and they are wrestling something from their pocket, I'm shooting.
Agreed.
A lot of the Bundy sympathizers are saying that he was being shot at and he was grabbing gunshot wounds.. I guess its possible......
Initially though it looks like he's grabbing for something and he's hesitating for the right moment. Won't know unless we hear audio and probably a better video.
The officer that jumped in front of the truck made a genius move.
It's nice to know that US citizens are subject to similar government surveillance to those we're openly at war with. Were there any Hellfire missiles on that helicopter/drone or would that have crossed some kind of line?
Road block at a turn in the road, shooter in the trees...total setup. Looks like the deceased wasn't even facing the shooter that took him down. Was he reaching for his pockets, or lifting his coat to show he was unarmed? Some audio to go with the video would certainly help. Can't tell when the shooting started compared to the deceased's actions/reactions.
Flash bangs and shots fired at the truck after Finicum was down?
"Grabbing at gun shot wounds and reaching/grabbing with left hand, but is right handed". Those are most of the comments I'm seeing.
HoneyBadger
01-29-2016, 00:05
Flash bangs and shots fired at the truck after Finicum was down?
It does look like it...
Honey Badger282.8
01-29-2016, 00:30
I'm really not understanding the outrage over the use of an ISR asset. Its a passive measure that gives the good guys on the ground a better picture of the situation and it can be invaluable in a SAR scenario. Also, there would be no audio of what was transpiring on the ground, only ICS and radio comms. There would be no audio of what the agents were shouting to the suspect or gunfire.
Bitter Clinger
01-29-2016, 02:53
Looks like he put his hands up, got shot, grabbed the wound, and was murdered for feeling pain. Looks like a total ambush set up to me. We likely are witnessing another Ruby Ridge here
hollohas
01-29-2016, 06:52
Flash bangs and shots fired at the truck after Finicum was down?
During the press conference they said they did fire a flash bang into the truck to incapacitate the others. Ouch.
They also said in the press conference that the state police were the arresting agency. I'll have to watch it again, but I'm pretty sure they said the State Police shot him too. Um....that didn't look like Highway Patrol to me.
EDIT:
Yup. The FBI say that OSP troopers shot him. The transcript of the press conference is available online.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_to_release_video_footage_o.html#incart_maj-story-1
Bailey Guns
01-29-2016, 07:46
Looks to me like the officer that jumped in front of the truck thought the white pickup was going to hit the roadblock vehicle he was behind. Kind of seems like he jumped out of the way of a possible collision but guessed wrong.
It does appear the man who got out of the truck was reaching for something several times. Doesn't look at all like he was reaching for gunshot wounds as he was only using one hand. Pretty hard to make sense of the situation just from that video.
Probably file this under PSG - WSP.
Totally messed up situation, I'll hold judgement until the facts come out and hope true justice will be served be it against the Feds or the militia.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 09:33
The "militia" was stupid for taking over a remote ranger station in protest and to make demands that no one could meet. I do not support what they were doing.
The media and especially the Feds were stupid for blowing it up into what transpired. Those guys were in and out of town, having meetings with the sheriff, with locals, always wearing blue jeans and cowboy hats. They could have just arrested the leaders the next time they visited the sheriff's office to chat, when they knew there weren't any kids around, when they could see there were no rifles or chance for major problem. Just invite them into the office and say, it's time to end this, you're under arrest.
I understand why the Feds lured them away from the refuge, because they didn't want to create a standoff. I get that. On the surface not a bad plan. But this group was not held up, barricaded in there. They had proven they were more than happy to simply meet like men in town. A roadblock, uav covered ambush was just the feds making a mountain out of a molehill. There was a much greater risk of major escalation with that arrest. Occupants with unknown weapons in vehicles, no way to see what they're up to. Way more unknowns. That was stupid. And no one should need the benefit of hindsight to see that. Two vehicles traveling with multiple occupants is a very dynamic situation with many, many unknowns. A semi-cordial meeting at the sheriff's office as they'd previously done has virtually zero unknows.
But the feds have their toys, might as well use them.
https://youtu.be/aAGxDWKrjPQ
Fails in order as I see them.
1. Running from LE.
2. Trying to drive faster than LE aircraft.
3. Not stopping for a roadblock.
4. Slamming into an off road snow bank.
5. Doing ANYTHING with your hands aside from keeping them up and fingers spread AFTER running from LE, while LEO points guns at you.
To the point that this was riskier than arresting them at a public space. Really? The aerial footage pretty much looks to be sparsely populated. If you can choose no innocent bystanders getting plugged in a 2 way shootout with a bunch of idiots, or doing it in BFE, were would you pick?
These guys, (Bundy group), were NEVER going to win shit. They were uninvited, in someone else's back yard, picking a fight over someone else's problems, while breaking multiple laws. I didn't wish death on them, and I am extremely sympathetic to thier supposed underlying principles of smaller, less aggressive and intrusive government, but this was NOT the fight, NOT the Alamo, and NOT the time for this.
Looks like he put his hands up, got shot, grabbed the wound, and was murdered for feeling pain. Looks like a total ambush set up to me. We likely are witnessing another Ruby Ridge here
People don't tend to grab at gunshot wounds when shot. Stupid people, playing stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Looks to me like the officer that jumped in front of the truck thought the white pickup was going to hit the roadblock vehicle he was behind. Kind of seems like he jumped out of the way of a possible collision but guessed wrong.
This makes more sense than anything. It looks like he times it perfectly to jump in front of the truck, but at that speed, the difference between jumping in front of the truck as it goes by, and jumping out from behind a truck that's about to be hit, is probably going to look the same. I bet the other guys are making fun of the only guy who didn't hold his position. (EDIT) Probably not, since he was the only one in position to get injured and any one with a brain would move.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 10:12
Fails in order as I see them.
1. Running from LE.
2. Trying to drive faster than LE aircraft.
3. Not stopping for a roadblock.
4. Slamming into an off road snow bank.
5. Doing ANYTHING with your hands aside from keeping them up and fingers spread AFTER running from LE, while LEO points guns at you.
Agreed.
These guys, (Bundy group), were NEVER going to win shit. They were uninvited, in someone else's back yard, picking a fight over someone else's problems, while breaking multiple laws. I didn't wish death on them, and I am extremely sympathetic to thier supposed underlying principles of smaller, less aggressive and intrusive government, but this was NOT the fight, NOT the Alamo, and NOT the time for this.
Agreed.
To the point that this was riskier than arresting them at a public space. Really? The aerial footage pretty much looks to be sparsely populated. If you can choose no innocent bystanders getting plugged in a 2 way shootout with a bunch of idiots, or doing it in BFE, were would you pick?
Agree on principal. I do understand why they picked that tactic. You stack the deck as much as you can to win. I'm a fan of decisive, single sided wins. And the Feds made that happen in their favor. But disagree based on this specific situation. These guys had already met multiple times with the Sheriff in his office, no long arms, in a controlled space. Beginning and ending with handshakes. There is virtually zero chance of a gunfight during an arrest in that situation.
The tactic the feds used created the possibility for escalation that wouldn't have existed had they simply arrested them while they visited the sheriff, in his office, in a controlled space. They introduced unknowns that wouldn't have existed otherwise.
But at this point, what difference does it make. ;)
Was he reaching for his pockets, or lifting his coat to show he was unarmed?
They said he had a handgun on him. Pretty poor attempt at showing anything the way he did.
Flash bangs and shots fired at the truck after Finicum was down?
At 6:23 in the policeone version of video can see a side door open before they flash bang it, so they had some others. With everyone shooting at everything wouldn't suprise me if some thought the shooting of finicum was maybe folks in the car etc.
Looks like he put his hands up, got shot, grabbed the wound, and was murdered for feeling pain. Looks like a total ambush set up to me. We likely are witnessing another Ruby Ridge here
Like someone said, folk don't usually grab wounds right after shot. The first several grabs at his coat pocket are clear as day. A few idiots are like OMG HIS LEFTTT HANNDDDD. Yeah, his left hand grabbed the tip of the coat to hold it still while his right was clearly trying to reach into the pocket area.
Looks to me like the officer that jumped in front of the truck thought the white pickup was going to hit the roadblock vehicle he was behind. Kind of seems like he jumped out of the way of a possible collision but guessed wrong.
I agree, yall beat me to that.
Aloha_Shooter
01-29-2016, 10:54
Like the David Koresh situation, I really don't have much sympathy for the people involved (except it does seem like the BLM and US Attorney involved seem to have overreached in the original case) but it seems like the feds pushed the situation further than they needed to. In the case of nutcases that you have quarantined, just keep up the blockade and quarantine and wait them out IMO. Yes, the people manning the blockade are dying of boredom but no one is actually dying. Claiming the rangers were impeded in their job by people occupying a station that wasn't in use anyway is a stretch.
Having said that, I'm withholding judgment until I have more information. What's out there is sketchy at best for people with my limited experience in this area.
Getting out of your car and doing a frantic chicken dance in front of armed LEOs after running from a traffic stop and blowing through a road block is not the best plan for survival. They probably could have used non-lethal on the guy, but the guys were given every chance with this one. Bad choices...not sure what he was thinking; feel for his family.
kidicarus13
01-29-2016, 14:14
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-sej-oregon-standoff-final-5-20160128-story.html
“Why can’t I get in my vehicle and drive home like I’ve done four other times since I got here?” said Sean Anderson, 47, of Riggins, Idaho, who was at the refuge along with wife Sandy, David Fry, 27, of Ohio and another man, Jeff Banta. “Because I didn’t leave the night they told us to do that?
“We’re asking them just to just drop the charges and we’re willing to go -- and nobody dies,” he said on a video early Wednesday.
Sounds like moral is pretty low at the refuge these days. It's just a matter of time now.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 14:58
It's amazing that an act of trespassing as a form of protest has turned into this.
Well, trespassers used to only carry red paint and tie-die t-shirts instead of rifles.
COShooter
01-29-2016, 15:28
So far the only person who died was on camera multiple times saying he would be killed before going to prison. The rest are going to prison.
Four people are still at the refuge and 3/4 have said on video they want to kill cops and have called for others to kill police at road blocks or in public. The FBIs strategy of letting them get comfortable, broadcast evidence of crimes live on the internet, and nabbing the leaders when they were all together away from the rest of the group was all great work on their part.
Have they explained how Ryan Bundy got shot in the arm?
COShooter
01-29-2016, 16:39
In the press conference they said the officers shot at the truck as it came towards the roadblock at high speed.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 16:57
I didnt watch all of the video. (actually just right at the shooting) If the camera was a drone then was he even aware something was above him?
Did the driver know that there was a roadblock coming up? Or was he driving along in the dark and came up to it doing 55mph? Did he try to go around or did he swerve to miss the cars in the road and went into the snow bank? It was dark in the part of the video I saw and if he was driving 55mph, he could have panicked at the end and swerved on wet icy roads. Also he was basically in a car accident when he hit the snow, Im sure it probably deployed his airbag and disoriented him. Then he was trudging in deep snow at the point of the video I saw.
He was running from a previous attempt to stop. No way to tell if he knew there was a roadblock, but he could have assumed so.
Bailey Guns
01-29-2016, 17:21
I'm having a hard time believing that snow was enough to deploy an airbag. While I agree with the overall concerns of a less intrusive gov't, I'm also with those that say this wasn't their fight, wasn't the right fight and they pretty much got what they said they wanted...a showdown with the man. Well? How'd that work out for ya?
I also don't think this is analogous to the Waco incident. The feds screwed the pooch big time there. Here it appears they've been more than patient with these guys, regardless of how much we want to nitpick their tactics.
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/12525695_1104523479578499_4581379977878219720_o.jp g
Saw this floating around on FB. We won't know until they release more footage that may shed some light as too what he was reaching for or just holding his wounds.
When watching the footage the first impression I got was that he was reaching for something. I could understand why a cop might think that.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 18:00
Every picture I've ever seen of him he was carrying a revolver strong side. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been reaching for another gun in his jacket.
hollohas
01-29-2016, 18:49
Well, trespassers used to only carry red paint and tie-die t-shirts instead of rifles.
I have seen dozens and dozens of pictures of these men at the refuge and in town. Both in mainstream media and from independent and social media. While there is no doubt the Bundy crew surely had long arms with them, and I'm sure they all had concealed handguns (because who doesn't ), I haven't seen a single picture of them carrying rifles on their person. The media portrayal of "armed militia" is simply an exaggeration to invoke an emotional response.
They didn't carry rifles to press conferences, didn't carry rifles to meetings in town and not around the area. They weren't there to scare people. The open carry folks in Texas display far more firearms than these guys did. And no one sets up a sting operation when those mall ninjas refuse to leave taco bell. They just go in and arrest them for trespassing.
Now there are other wackos there who are walking around openly with long arms, but the Bundy crew that was arrested simply was not.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/41bfdd15daf9de7b5919821d177f3428.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/1af4e6f578a9725495559b2cda5b1abb.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/a6f990541b18dbd7a43478f4cbaf4dbc.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/aaf5bbf4b612f3318cbe100a26be0f3b.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/c39d9dc7d859377d6ea753a491d05698.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/4652d4550c214a5d94085a9835d1345d.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/e6472721d38f76685673df3c9b5af364.jpg
http://libertynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Screen-Shot-2016-01-29-at-2.35.07-PM.png
cfortune
01-29-2016, 18:56
Some accounts have come out from supposed people in the vehicle.
UqsBHs3Kg54
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Interviewer in the first Youtube video with the girl seems very unprofessional. You wait for 3 minutes in before you advise you're recording? Then tell the lady you're afraid someone is going to murder her because she was a witness? Even if you believe that, you shouldn't say that to someone.
While there is no doubt the Bundy crew surely had long arms with them, and I'm sure they all had concealed handguns (because who doesn't ), I haven't seen a single picture of them carrying rifles on their person. The media portrayal of "armed militia" is simply an exaggeration to invoke an emotional response.
http://www.elkharttruth.com/image/2016/01/10/800x800_b0/Ranching-Standoff-8.jpg
http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width960/img/oregonian/photo/2016/01/09/militants-arrivejpg-95baf57817c30ed7.jpg
http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width960/img/oregonian/photo/2016/01/13/-e21cfcffc939a804.jpg
Holy shit, this dude was legit crazy
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/2464200/1453909256000/large16x9/768/432/a-man-dressed-as-a.jpg
Bitter Clinger
01-30-2016, 02:03
I must recant my earlier statement, I'll blame it on Sam Adams cherry wheat. I've watched this a couple few dozen times now. It does look like he is going for a weapon. Who knows though, this whole situation is screwed. This was not the time or place to take up arms against the fed. I don't think we are there yet and I hope we can turn this ship around before we are. One thing I'm having trouble understanding is the use of flash-bangs, would they even be effective in this situation? I have no idea as I have never seen one go off outside in relative daylight.
Bitter Clinger
01-30-2016, 02:10
People don't tend to grab at gunshot wounds when shot. Stupid people, playing stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Are you sure? I have seen many vids of criminals getting shot, many of them grab at the wound. Have you hit your elbow or head, or any other part of your body before? I have, my unconscious reaction is to "hold" it. I'm not flaming you, just asking. And also I've never been shot so my opinion is not worth much.
Bitter Clinger
01-30-2016, 02:11
http://www.elkharttruth.com/image/2016/01/10/800x800_b0/Ranching-Standoff-8.jpg
http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width960/img/oregonian/photo/2016/01/09/militants-arrivejpg-95baf57817c30ed7.jpg
http://image.oregonlive.com/home/olive-media/width960/img/oregonian/photo/2016/01/13/-e21cfcffc939a804.jpg
Holy shit, this dude was legit crazy
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/2464200/1453909256000/large16x9/768/432/a-man-dressed-as-a.jpg
Which one? Gen.Washington or BRIGHT YELLOW SAFETY VEST guy?
I think most of those pics of guys with long guns were the Idaho group that arrived unsolicited and were asked to leave by Bundy.
Are you sure? I have seen many vids of criminals getting shot, many of them grab at the wound. Have you hit your elbow or head, or any other part of your body before? I have, my unconscious reaction is to "hold" it. I'm not flaming you, just asking. And also I've never been shot so my opinion is not worth much.
Mostly based off of Anecdotal evidence. It could be, it could not be. All I know is if I'm LE, and known armed, belligerent, numbnuts decides to run, crashes his vehicle, leaps from his vehicle without being ordered too, and starts flailing around and looks like he's going for his peice, well I'm going home and he's not.
Mostly based off of Anecdotal evidence. It could be, it could not be. All I know is if I'm LE, and known armed, belligerent, numbnuts decides to run, crashes his vehicle, leaps from his vehicle without being ordered too, and starts flailing around and looks like he's going for his peice, well I'm going home and he's not.
It's not like he was wearing a suicide vest with his thumb on the button, or holding hostages. He was a small man stumbling around knee-deep in the snow while LE was behind cover with long-guns. No immediate threat to anyone other than the LEs that came out from behind cover to confront.
I'm not justifying his actions. I personally believe he wanted to go down as a martyr. However, I believe LE had other options available at the time.
I believe Finicum and LE were eager for a shoot-out, so I guess both sides got what they wanted.
hollohas
01-30-2016, 11:13
I think most of those pics of guys with long guns were the Idaho group that arrived unsolicited and were asked to leave by Bundy.
This is correct.
Sounds like this rocket scientist, Sean Anderson, will be the next one to commit suicide by cop.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424211/Oregon-militiaman-armed-standoff-FBI-abusive-radical-string-drug-alcohol-convictions-willing-die-beliefs.html
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/30/15/30B4F9A900000578-0-image-a-46_1454166889256.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/30/15/30B4F9A500000578-0-image-a-45_1454166889234.jpg
hollohas
01-30-2016, 11:28
Dumbasses like that are making everything worse.
We have also learned that the militant anti-Government protester is a martial-arts enthusiast....
Hahahaha. I'd be willing to bet that guy's "martial-arts enthusiasm" is limited to swinging nunchucks around while watching Jackie Chan movies.
Sounds like this rocket scientist, Sean Anderson, will be the next one to commit suicide by cop.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424211/Oregon-militiaman-armed-standoff-FBI-abusive-radical-string-drug-alcohol-convictions-willing-die-beliefs.html
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/30/15/30B4F9A900000578-0-image-a-46_1454166889256.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/30/15/30B4F9A500000578-0-image-a-45_1454166889234.jpg
Oh look the fat fucking retard from video I posted. I dont know whether guys like this needed to be bullied more or taken to a safe space (sarc) as a child.
bobbyfairbanks
01-30-2016, 17:04
People don't tend to grab at gunshot wounds when shot. Stupid people, playing stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Bullshit. Excluding my own first hand(years and years) war time xperience. What about accounts of soldiers tearing apart there smocks to see if they received a gut shot. Most when observing a gut shot fought savagely as they knew death was eminent. Lots of civil war and revolutionary war books talk of this. Come to think of it mountain man times as well.
Then there is this. I have been fucking shot. After I eliminated the threat I bet you can guess where my hands where. Up my nose or jerking off aren't the right answers
Bullshit. Excluding my own first hand(years and years) war time xperience. What about accounts of soldiers tearing apart there smocks to see if they received a gut shot. Most when observing a gut shot fought savagely as they knew death was eminent. Lots of civil war and revolutionary war books talk of this. Come to think of it mountain man times as well.
Then there is this. I have been fucking shot. After I eliminated the threat I bet you can guess where my hands where. Up my nose or jerking off aren't the right answers
Very well then, glad your still with us. My experiences don't jive with yours, but then again I've never been shot before. Friends of mine that were didn't grab at their wounds, but they weren't you, and you weren't them. I would suspect different people react differently to being shot, where your shot at also might have something to do with it to.
Also since your statement was that you eliminated a threat, THEN grabbed at your wound my thesis of people don't grab at their wounds when shot should have read; people don't IMMEDIATELY grab at thier wounds. Not poking at you. It amazes me how 20 people can watch a video and you can have 40 different viewpoints on what happened. Glad I'm not a cop or a detective, eyewitness reports would drive me up the freaking wall.
sellersm
02-01-2016, 11:43
Exclusive interview with Shawna Cox about the shooting.
Link to audio: http://mediaarchives.gsradio.net/commonsenseshow/hr3013116.mp3
Comments/notes from Dave Hodges' interview:
On Sunday evening, January 31, 2016, I interviewed Shawna Cox on The Common Sense Show. Her conversation with me was filled with exuberance, the same kind of exuberance that one would experience from a traumatic “fight or flight” experience.
After being shot at over 100 times, and lucky to be alive, Shawna was taken into custody. Shawna addresses the question posed and listed above, as she revealed to my audience some very detailed information which is also confirmed from the public accounts of 18 year old Victoria Sharp.
This may be Shawna Cox’s final interview to the media. During the course of the 30 minute interview, she told me she fully expected to be the victim of a gag order issued by a federal judge when she appears in court on Monday to face federal charges of impeding federal officers.
Shawna Cox, working through the health reporter of The Common Sense Show, Katy Whelan, reached out to me on Saturday evening. The interview, itself, was primarily about the harrowing events on January 26th in which LaVoy Finicum was executed by the FBI.
The Purpose of the Trip
Ammon Bundy and his companions were on their way to meet with the Sheriff from nearby John Day and commingle with local ranchers who stood in support of their cause. Music and festivities were also the order of the day. This is why 18-year-old singer, Victoria Sharp, was accompanying the party as they tried to make their way to John Day.
First Encounter
As the two cars, comprising the caravan, were making their way to John Day. they were pulled over at the first roadblock. At first, neither side did anything in what could be described as a silent stand-off. The occupants of the vehicles were not given any instructions (e.g. to exit the vehicle, etc.). Finally, in an attempt to show peaceful intent, Ryan Payne put both hands out of the truck through the open window, to show he was not armed, and he was promptly shot at with the bullet striking metal of the truck between the window and the mirror.
DAVE HODGES QUESTION: DID FEDERAL AUTHORITIES EVER GIVE THE OCCUPANTS OF THE TRUCKS A CHANCE TO SURRENDER AT THE FIRST ROADBLOCK? DID THEY ISSUE INSTRUCTIONS THROUGH THEIR PA?
SHAWNA COX ANSWER: NO! THEY JUST OPENED FIRE ON US AS WE SAT THERE. THEY NEVER GAVE US THE CHANCE TO SURRENDER.
A Fateful Decision
At that point, the driver of the first vehicle, Lavoy Finicum made a fateful decision to escape the gunfire and reach the protection of the Sheriff waiting for them at John Day.
As Finicum sped away, federal authorities were in pursuit. Very quickly, they came upon a second roadblock. Cox stated that it was at that point that Payne begged Finicum to pull over and he kept saying that we have to reach the Sheriff.
The Second Roadblock
Upon reaching the second roadblock, Finicum attempted to swerve to the side of the road and the truck was stuck in a snowbank.
According to Cox, Finicum exited the vehicle with his hands up and said:
“We have women in the car don’t shoot!:
According to Cox, and her account is backed up by Victoria Sharp, Finicum had his hands in the air as he faced the FBI agents who were stationed in the trees and said:
“We are going to the Sheriff….well, just go ahead and shoot me.” This was all said with his hands in the air. Finicum (was) immediately shot upon exiting the car, several times, and was, again, shot at repeatedly while he lie in the snow dying.
Attempted Second Degree Murder of the Occupants in the Truck
Immediately, the occupants had red lasers on their bodies as the scurried for cover in the truck. Immediately after Finicum was killed, the truck came under fire. No orders were issued to the occupants, and as it was at the first roadblock, firing bullets at the occupants of the truck was the first order of the day.
Cox believes that the vehicle was struck at least one hundred times. Both women were hysterically screaming to “please stop shooting” as the two women were begging for their lives.
This entire event, complete with two roadblocks, unprovoked gunfire and FBI agents in the trees could only be described as an “old west ambush”.
With no movement in the truck, and after firing over 100 rounds, the FBI finally issued its first order to surrender. They ordered the male occupants out of the vehicle, followed by the females.
The Arrests
I have had multiple law enforcement personnel write to me and express shock and horror that the FBI never attempted to check on the status of Finicum.
Victoria Sharp was not charged and arrested and was dumped at a Safeway parking lot with no money and only the clothes on her back. Shawna Cox was charged with impeding federal officers (I am still scratching my head on this one trying to make sense of the charge.
As a footnote, and as a precondition of her release, Shawna Cox was ordered to have all guns at her Utah home removed. After the guns were removed, her son-in-law, sitting in close proximity to the guns was suddenly and mysteriously caught in a fire in which all the guns and ammunition went up in smoke. Shawna’s son-in-law was killed in the event.
Conclusion
Please consider the fact that Victoria Sharp is an 18 year old kid who was not even part of the dispute. She was there to musically perform in John Day and the FBI attempted to murder this girl without so much as an opportunity to surrender peacefully.
What did these seven occupants do to warrant a “shoot first order”? They did nothing, but they were never given the opportunity to surrender before being fired upon, on two different occasions. And as Shawna Cox put it “Lavoy was murdered in cold blood by the FBI, he had his hands in the air until he was shot”.
Shawna added, as a footnote, that when the last man was taken into custody, they were asked if there were any others left in the truck. They responded that they were the last. The FBI promptly proceeded to fire over 100 more rounds into the vehicle after the vehicle was vacated.
Is this the kind of country that you want to live in? Steve Quayle was correct when he said on my show, regarding his new book, that the Nazi’s won the war and it can be accurately stated that the Lavoy Finicum was murdered by the American version of the Gestapo.
On Sunday evening, January 31, 2016, I interviewed Shawna Cox on The Common Sense Show. Her conversation with me was filled with exuberance, the same kind of exuberance that one would experience from a traumatic “fight or flight” experience.
After being shot at over 100 times, and lucky to be alive, Shawna was taken into custody. Shawna addresses the question posed and listed above, as she revealed to my audience some very detailed information which is also confirmed from the public accounts of 18 year old Victoria Sharp.
This may be Shawna Cox’s final interview to the media. During the course of the 30 minute interview, she told me she fully expected to be the victim of a gag order issued by a federal judge when she appears in court on Monday to face federal charges of impeding federal officers.
Shawna Cox, working through the health reporter of The Common Sense Show, Katy Whelan, reached out to me on Saturday evening. The interview, itself, was primarily about the harrowing events on January 26th in which LaVoy Finicum was executed by the FBI.
HoneyBadger
02-01-2016, 11:58
Exclusive interview with Shawna Cox about the shooting.
Link to audio: http://mediaarchives.gsradio.net/commonsenseshow/hr3013116.mp3
Comments/notes from Dave Hodges' interview:
A little dramatic, don't you think? [Roll1]
Exclusive interview with Shawna Cox about the shooting.
Link to audio: http://mediaarchives.gsradio.net/commonsenseshow/hr3013116.mp3
Comments/notes from Dave Hodges' interview:
That explains why he was frantically dancing around in the snow.
COShooter
02-01-2016, 12:46
Exclusive interview with Shawna Cox about the shooting.
Link to audio: http://mediaarchives.gsradio.net/commonsenseshow/hr3013116.mp3
Comments/notes from Dave Hodges' interview:
Except I watched the FBI video with my own eyes and one person did exit the white truck and surrender before they sped off. They were not under fire. Ammon Bundy and Mark McConnell both were arrested peacefully as well.
I also believe she is mixing up the sound of flashbangs (like a string of firecrackers) with additional gun shots.
Except I watched the FBI video with my own eyes and one person did exit the white truck and surrender before they sped off. They were not under fire. Ammon Bundy and Mark McConnell both were arrested peacefully as well.
I also believe she is mixing up the sound of flashbangs (like a string of firecrackers) with additional gun shots.
Sure have a lot of confidence in your assessment of a video with no sound vs an eyewitness. Not saying she's 100% correct.
You should also be able to see, with your own eyes, shots hitting the truck above the front passenger door toward the end of the video.
COShooter
02-01-2016, 13:15
Sure have a lot of confidence in your assessment of a video with no sound vs an eyewitness. Not saying she's 100% correct.
You should also be able to see, with your own eyes, shots hitting the truck above the front passenger door toward the end of the video.
The police and FBI used pepperballs and flashbangs on the occupants of the vehicles, not bullets. That's what is seen in the video.
She says that they were not given any chance to surrender, but that contradicts other eyewitness testimony that a man got out of Finicum's truck and surrendered to the FBI before Finicum drove off. That is substantiated by video evidence. There are no gunshots on the truck visible until he approaches the roadblock. It should be obvious with his truck topper if they were shooting at the truck but alas there was no damage until he approaches the roadblock. That's why I am confident.
Your right, from that video I can see no bullet holes in the truck. But, from that video I'm not sure how you can say there are none. Maybe you've seen a different one or have much better resolution.
Your right, from that video I can see no bullet holes in the truck. But, from that video I'm not sure how you can say there are none. Maybe you've seen a different one or have much better resolution.
I watched it again too. The windshield is obvious, but not the rest of it. I think I can see issues in the other glass but the resolution is too poor. I can see them setting off a bunch of other flash rounds. Sound would tell the story here, but the video the passengers took will never see the light of day. My opinion of the guy changed after watching it again; they killed him and left him to die in the snow.
COShooter
02-01-2016, 19:15
I watched it again too. The windshield is obvious, but not the rest of it. I think I can see issues in the other glass but the resolution is too poor. I can see them setting off a bunch of other flash rounds. Sound would tell the story here, but the video the passengers took will never see the light of day. My opinion of the guy changed after watching it again; they killed him and left him to die in the snow.
When police shoot, they shoot to kill.
When police shoot, they shoot to kill.
[facepalm]
Can we try not to get this thread shut down again
Bailey Guns
02-01-2016, 19:39
I'm doubtful there are 100 bullet holes in that truck. If there are it's a damn miracle no one inside was hit. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's damn near impossible.
[facepalm]
Can we try not to get this thread shut down again
This thread or the motorcycle thread? lol
This thread or the motorcycle thread? lol
You're right, my bad.
When cops are involved in shootings, it seems to bring out the tinfoil and butthurt on related threads.
Bailey Guns
02-01-2016, 19:43
When police shoot, they shoot to kill.
What academy did you go to? Because during my 15 year career I was always taught to shoot only to eliminate the threat. That whole, "use the minimum amount of force to effect the arrest" thing.
HoneyBadger
02-01-2016, 20:30
I'm doubtful there are 100 bullet holes in that truck. If there are it's a damn miracle no one inside was hit. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's damn near impossible.
Yeahhhhhhhhh... I don't believe a single word of that "exclusive interview"
What academy did you go to? Because during my 15 year career I was always taught to shoot only to eliminate the threat. That whole, "use the minimum amount of force to effect the arrest" thing.
[Pop]
Bailey Guns
02-01-2016, 21:22
I like popcorn...
Eyewitness, and Ear witness reports from a half deaf singer, whose brain hasn't fully matured notwithstanding, if in fact the Bundys Crews 2 Vics were initially pulled over and no commands were given in a reasonable amount of time, say 15 minutes, and if after that time someone showed empty hands fingers spread, and the LEO's fired on them, well that's a pretty shitty way to handle any kind of traffic stop.
I'm doubtful there are 100 bullet holes in that truck. If there are it's a damn miracle no one inside was hit. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's damn near impossible.
I agree, unless these were california trained cops. We all know they can't shoot for shit! Like the ak guys during that shootout. Or the recent one where they obliterated the truck full of Asian women due to mistaken identity.
HoneyBadger
02-01-2016, 23:32
...well that's a pretty shitty way to handle any kind of traffic stop.
Your biggest mistake here is assuming that this is a traffic stop... It was clearly an ambush with a very specific target.
Your biggest mistake here is assuming that this is a traffic stop... It was clearly an ambush with a very specific target.
They pulled over a vehicle with a vehicle, ergo traffic stop.
You and I Evidently have a different understanding of the word ambush.
am·bush
Simple Definition of ambush
: an act of hiding, waiting for others to appear, and then suddenly attacking them : a surprise attack.
Roadblock around a bend in the middle of nowhere.
Targets on there way to a meeting they were invited to attend, unaware the road block is in place.
Additional LE posted up in the tree line.
Sounds kinda like it fits your definition to me.
Great-Kazoo
02-02-2016, 01:22
I agree, unless these were california trained cops. We all know they can't shoot for shit! Like the ak guys during that shootout..
That was hand & shot guns against heavily armored shooters with CA unapproved happy switches. No excuse for the dorn derp.
Roadblock around a bend in the middle of nowhere.
Targets on there way to a meeting they were invited to attend, unaware the road block is in place.
Additional LE posted up in the tree line.
Sounds kinda like it fits your definition to me.
Having personally only been in ambushes that involved RPG's, belt feds, and IED's, and fake IED's, I guess being stopped at a roadblock and the end result being only one guy getting smoked doesn't feel, look, or smell like an ambush to me.
When the guy got out of his truck he knew there would be guns drawn and sights on him. I've never seen someone pulled over before where getting out of the car would have helped their case. Or decreased there likelihood of being shot at by cops.
Martinjmpr
02-02-2016, 10:00
Wasn't Finicum also the guy who was filmed more than once saying he'd rather die than surrender? Sounds like the cops granted his wish.
Two Statements from the family:
http://canadafreepress.com/article/two-statements-from-the-finicum-family
Based on Shawna Cox’s account, coupled with the account of Victoria Sharp, and comparison to the video released by the FBI, we now desire to make the following additional observations:
Mark McConnell (if that is even his real name), had previously issued a statement that LaVoy had supposedly “charged” toward the officers. According to Shawna Cox, however, McConnell was not even present and had no personal knowledge whatsoever of what happened at the roadblock where LaVoy was killed. By way of background, McConnell had shown up at the refuge just two days earlier and ingratiated himself into their circle. He insisted on driving Ammon Bundy to the meeting. His vehicle was stopped at the outset, immediately surrounded by other vehicles and officers, and Ammon was arrested at that point, without incident. According to Shawna Cox, McConnell was never arrested and hasn’t been charged. Consequently, at this point it seems fairly obvious that McConnell was either an undercover agent who was helping to orchestrate the whole thing, or he was bribed somehow. But he never even saw what happened with LaVoy.
Officers started shooting at LaVoy’s vehicle and the people in it right from the outset, even at the very first stop. Ryan Payne put his empty hands out of LaVoy’s truck window, and they shot at him. Ryan then yelled that there were women in the vehicle. The officers instructed them to allow the women to get out of the vehicle, but Victoria Sharp refused, and Shawna Cox would not leave her.
LaVoy clearly stated (yelled) to the officers, repeatedly, that it was his intention to go on to Grant County to talk to the sheriff there. But a disagreement ensued between LaVoy and Ryan Payne as to what they should do, so Payne exited the vehicle, at which time LaVoy proceeded farther until he came to the roadblock.
According to Shawna Cox, they were being fired upon right from the outset at the second stop, before LaVoy even exited the vehicle. Bullets had already come through the front windshield. According to Cox, there is no question that LaVoy was trying to draw the gunfire away from the others in the vehicle.
According to Cox, because it was very obvious that LaVoy had his hands in the air and intended to keep them there, the best explanation for LaVoy’s arguably furtive hand movements, and why he lowered his hands and reached for his side at one point is because he had already been shot, and he was reaching toward the area where he had been hit as an involuntary physical reflex, despite his fairly obvious determination to try to keep his hands in the air, as evidenced by the fact that he once again attempted to raised his hands, before being shot again and collapsing.
According to Shawna Cox, after LaVoy was lying motionless in the snow, the legion of federal agents and police unleashed a barrage of gunfire on LaVoy’s truck and its remaining occupants, then including Ryan Bundy, Shawna Cox and Victoria Sharp, and shot it repeatedly. It was during this round of gunfire that Ryan Bundy was wounded. According to Cox, it was miraculous that no one else (which included Victoria Sharpe, a completely innocent bystander) was killed or seriously wounded during this attack. In addition to gunfire, they were also terrorized by repeated smoke and pepper bombs.
There was never any attempt to provide any meaningful or timely medical attention to LaVoy. Victoria Sharp kept yelling that she was an EMT, and she wanted to treat him, but she was shot at instead.
After re-reviewing the extended video with better technology, we want to reiterate that we are not accepting at face value the FBI’s statement that LaVoy was actually armed.
hollohas
02-05-2016, 16:06
.....According to Cox, there is no question that LaVoy was trying to draw the gunfire away from the others in the vehicle.
This is exactly what my first impression was. How fast he exited and the distance he moved away truly appeared that he was trying to draw attention away from the vehicle. Had he exited the vehicle looking for a fight, it'd make more sense to do it gun in hand and towards the officers.
Why he'd want to draw attention away from the car, I dunno.
So where's pics of this car supposedly riddledd with hundreds of rounds they make it sound like
So where's pics of this car supposedly riddledd with hundreds of rounds they make it sound like
in the linked article, the family is asking for the same thing.
Reading through all this sure screams on thing... Everyone posting stuff from the guys involved/family, remember one thing- Consider your source. What are their alliances and motivations. I don't expect 100% honesty from the "milita" folks involved, nor their loved ones when it comes to what's really going on. Then again, I also don't expect that same honesty from the feds... but their reports for future legal issues should be... I would hope.
milwaukeeshaker
02-05-2016, 17:44
Yeah, like the Feds at Waco.
Reading through all this sure screams on thing... Everyone posting stuff from the guys involved/family, remember one thing- Consider your source. What are their alliances and motivations. I don't expect 100% honesty from the "milita" folks involved, nor their loved ones when it comes to what's really going on. Then again, I also don't expect that same honesty from the feds... but their reports for future legal issues should be... I would hope.
So where's pics of this car supposedly riddledd with hundreds of rounds they make it sound like
Seems pretty easy to quash all rumors. FBI should release photos of the vehicle.
FWIW from the tiny bit I read, this one guy they are going about being an undercover agent is certainly plausible. The rest is taken with a big ol salt lick block
hollohas
02-06-2016, 10:47
FWIW from the tiny bit I read, this one guy they are going about being an undercover agent is certainly plausible. The rest is taken with a big ol salt lick block
There were many who thought that guy was either undercover or an informant prior to the arrest as well. The circumstances of the arrest just reinforced that suspicion.
bobbyfairbanks
02-06-2016, 22:53
Reading through all this sure screams on thing... Everyone posting stuff from the guys involved/family, remember one thing- Consider your source. What are their alliances and motivations. I don't expect 100% honesty from the "milita" folks involved, nor their loved ones when it comes to what's really going on. Then again, I also don't expect that same honesty from the feds... but their reports for future legal issues should be... I would hope.
And government would never lie or murder it's citizens
milwaukeeshaker
02-06-2016, 23:31
Yeah, like Randy Weaver and his family.
And government would never lie or murder it's citizens
Bailey Guns
02-07-2016, 07:14
And government would never lie or murder it's citizens
Of course it would...and has. On occasions too numerous to list. On the other hand, some people are just assholes and like to poke the bear.
Martinjmpr
02-07-2016, 11:19
And government would never lie or murder it's citizens
And people who have a family member justifiably shot by the police would never make up a story or tell lies about how it happened? [cough Michael Brown cough]
HoneyBadger
02-07-2016, 14:46
[beatdeadhorse]
Is that one of Bundy's dead cattle?? WHY ARE YOU BEATING IT?! [panic]
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/nevada_rancher_cliven_bundy_de.html#incart_big-photo
Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who touched off one armed showdown with federal authorities and applauded another started in Oregon by his sons, was arrested late Wednesday at Portland International Airport and faces federal charges related to the 2014 standoff at his ranch.
Bundy, 74, was booked into the downtown Multnomah County jail at 10:54 p.m.
He faces a conspiracy charge to interfere with a federal officer -- the same charge lodged against two of his sons, Ammon and Ryan, for their role in the Jan. 2 takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Burns. He also faces weapons charges.
Bundy is no hero of mine but WTF does "conspiracy to interfere with an officer" consist of? Two people talking about doing something that prevents a LEO from doing something?
Martinjmpr
02-11-2016, 10:41
Bundy is no hero of mine but WTF does "conspiracy to interfere with an officer" consist of? Two people talking about doing something that prevents a LEO from doing something?
The standoff from 2014. Did you think the feds had forgotten about that? Nope they were just biding their time.
IANAL but that seemed like a lot more than just conspiracy though.
I was asking about in general...what is considered to be "conspiracy to interfere with an officer"?
Martinjmpr
02-11-2016, 11:40
IANAL but that seemed like a lot more than just conspiracy though.
I was asking about in general...what is considered to be "conspiracy to interfere with an officer"?
I would guess it's probably 18 USC section 372:
18 U.S. Code § 372
If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.
If you recall the BLM went to Bundy's ranch to seize the cattle that were illegally grazing there. Bundy and others then showed up, armed, and forced the feds to back off. That would seem to meet all of the requirements of the charge.
I would also guess that there will actually be a laundry list of other charges as well including:
18 USC Section 231, civil disorders,
18 U.S. Code § 930 - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
18 U.S. Code § 1361 - Malicious Mischeif (Government property or contracts)
18 U.S. Code § 1503 - Influencing or injuring officer or juror generally
And that's what I could pull up just in a cursory search of 18 USC (the criminal portion of Federal statutes.) There's probably a long list of state charges they could face as well - intimidation of a public official, obstruction of justice, etc.
hollohas
02-11-2016, 16:57
Rumors coming out now that the FBI may be readying dozens of warrants for folks that were present at Bundy Ranch. Also, sounds like in addition to Cliven Bundy getting arrested, a few of the folks that have been with him since the ranch standoff (Blaine Cooper, and two other Bundy "body guards) were picked up by the FBI at separate locations Wednesday.
Might be getting ready to see a wide net cast...
I guess I'm still hung up on the "conspire to" part of it. Wouldn't an example of that being Bundy and his son talking to each other about blocking BLM from seizing the cattle? Maybe that's the clearest-cut thing they could charge him with but it seems pretty small fry, relatively speaking.
Martinjmpr
02-11-2016, 17:55
I guess I'm still hung up on the "conspire to" part of it. Wouldn't an example of that being Bundy and his son talking to each other about blocking BLM from seizing the cattle? Maybe that's the clearest-cut thing they could charge him with but it seems pretty small fry, relatively speaking.
Bundy and a whole bunch of other people (hundreds, IIRC) showed up with a common purpose of preventing the BLM officials from executing their warrants to seize cattle and remove them from Bundy's illegal operation.
A conspiracy requires two elements, an agreement between two or more people to commit a criminal act, and at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement.
The "agreement" part can be shown by actions, it need not be shown by words (though there are plenty of both, as evidenced by the various video of the Nevada incident and public statements made by Bundy and others that they intended to resist the authority of the BLM. That right there is sufficient to provide all the elements needed to convict him of that charge. And as I posted earlier, there are sure to be lots of other charges as well.
hollohas
02-11-2016, 20:57
I was not aware of the particular law before it was posted here, but it's stupid.
The papers have been filed. I'll post the link in a second, but here's one of the charges. Charging him for "obsturcting commerce" for taking his cattle back is bogus. How can an impounded property be considered an interchange of goods for trade? Nothing about that was "commerce".
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160212/d86bd9d222f21fc602b92a02d7c47cf2.jpg
Bundy and a whole bunch of other people (hundreds, IIRC) showed up with a common purpose of preventing the BLM officials from executing their warrants to seize cattle and remove them from Bundy's illegal operation.
I guess it depends on how you define "illegal operation". When your family has been ranching land since before there ever was a BLM, I can empathize with their claims.
HoneyBadger
02-11-2016, 23:48
I guess it depends on how you define "illegal operation". When your family has been ranching land since before there ever was a BLM, I can empathize with their claims.
"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." -Frederic Bastiat
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." -Thomas Jefferson
When the law is unjust, law-abiding citizens become de facto criminals. - HoneyBadger 11 Feb 2016
I don't support their actions in Oregon, but as Gman said, I can empathize with their argument against the BLM.
hollohas
03-03-2016, 12:02
The FBI arrested 2 more men today on charges relating to the 2014 Bundy Ranch protest.
One guy named Jerry DeLemus in NH and yet another Bundy family member in NV.
Political dissidents are being arrested...in the USA.
I'm guessing the next time we see a similar protest, if they are smart, the protesters will have their identities concealed.
Edit: LINKS ADDED
http://www.unionleader.com/FBI_arrests_Jerry_DeLemus
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3611906-155/bundy-family-member-arrested-in-utah
The FBI arrested 2 more men today on charges relating to the 2014 Bundy Ranch protest.
One guy named Jerry DeLemus in NH and yet another Bundy family member in NV.
Political dissidents are being arrested...in the USA.
I'm guessing the next time we see a similar protest, if they are smart, the protesters will have their identities concealed.
Link?
ETA: thanks
milwaukeeshaker
03-03-2016, 12:34
Yeah, they need to put on hoods and masks like the "lawmen"
The FBI arrested 2 more men today on charges relating to the 2014 Bundy Ranch protest.
One guy named Jerry DeLemus in NH and yet another Bundy family member in NV.
Political dissidents are being arrested...in the USA.
I'm guessing the next time we see a similar protest, if they are smart, the protesters will have their identities concealed.
Edit: LINKS ADDED
http://www.unionleader.com/FBI_arrests_Jerry_DeLemus
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3611906-155/bundy-family-member-arrested-in-utah
hollohas
03-03-2016, 18:52
12 new people charged today in connection with the 2014 protest including the 2 previously mentioned.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/another-arrest-made-in-connection-to-bundy-ranch-standoff
Seems to me timing is everything. The Feds want a gun fight right now. [facepalm]
HoneyBadger
03-03-2016, 23:09
Seems to me timing is everything. The Feds want a gun fight right now. [facepalm]
That would sure help the election season, wouldn't it?
theGinsue
03-03-2016, 23:41
The FBI arrested 2 more men today on charges relating to the 2014 Bundy Ranch protest.
One guy named Jerry DeLemus in NH and yet another Bundy family member in NV.
Political dissidents are being arrested...in the USA.
I'm guessing the next time we see a similar protest, if they are smart, the protesters will have their identities concealed.
Edit: LINKS ADDED
http://www.unionleader.com/FBI_arrests_Jerry_DeLemus
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3611906-155/bundy-family-member-arrested-in-utah
Quote from the first link listed:
State Rep. Susan DeLemus, R-Rochester, confirmed that FBI agents arrested her husband Thursday morning. Fighting back tears, she told the Union Leader that was all she would say about the arrest at this point.
And I'm certain that this mans wife being a REPUBLICAN State Representative had nothing to do with the .fed decision to arrest him. Curiouser & curiouser.
theGinsue
03-03-2016, 23:45
Before it gets to that point, just a reminder that the site neither supports nor condones (allows) discussion of armed resistance against the government. Anyone so inclined to discuss such a topic needs to take it elsewhere or face permanent banning.
I'd also like to remind everyone that, like the rest of the site, this is a publicly viewable/searchable thread.
Clear? Good.
hollohas
03-04-2016, 15:40
Posted without comment. Facts only.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-nv/pr/fourteen-additional-defendants-charged-felony-crimes-related-2014-standoff-nevada
Department of Justice
U.S. Attorney’s Office
District of Nevada
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, March 3, 2016
Fourteen Additional Defendants Charged For Felony Crimes Related To 2014 Standoff In NevadaLAS VEGAS, Nev. – The federal grand jury in Nevada has charged 14 more defendants in connection with the armed assault against federal law enforcement officers that occurred in the Bunkerville, Nev. area on April 12, 2014, over the removal of Cliven Bundy’s cows from public lands, announced U.S. Attorney Daniel G. Bogden for the District of Nevada and Special Agent in Charge Laura Bucheit for the FBI in Nevada.
“This investigation began the day after the assault against federal law enforcement officers and continues to this day,” said U.S. Attorney Bogden. “We will continue to work to identify the assaulters and their role in the assault and the aftermath, in order to ensure that justice is served.”
A superseding criminal indictment was returned by the grand jury on Wednesday, March 2, and now charges a total of 19 defendants. The 14 new defendants are Melvin D. Bundy, 41, of Round Mountain, Nev., David H. Bundy, 39, of Delta, Utah, Brian D. Cavalier, 44, of Bunkerville, Nev., Blaine Cooper, 36, of Humboldt, Ariz., Gerald A. DeLemus, 61, of Rochester, N.H., Eric J. Parker, 32, of Hailey, Idaho, O. Scott Drexler, 44, of Challis, Idaho, Richard R. Lovelien, 52, of Westville, Okla., Steven A. Stewart, 36, of Hailey, Idaho, Todd C. Engel, 48, of Boundary County, Idaho, Gregory P. Burleson, 52, of Phoenix, Ariz., Joseph D. O’Shaughnessy, 43, of Cottonwood, Ariz., and Micah L. McGuire, 31, and Jason D. Woods, 30, both of Chandler, Ariz.
Twelve defendants were arrested earlier today. Two defendants, Brian D. Cavalier and Blaine Cooper, were already in federal custody in the District of Oregon.
“These indictments and subsequent arrests send an irrefutable message to the American people that our determination remains steadfast to protect them and pursue individuals who participate in violent acts of this nature,” said Special Agent in Charge Bucheit.
The newly-added defendants are charged with one count of conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States and conspiracy to impede or injure a federal officer, and at least one count of using and carrying a firearm in relation to a crime of violence, assault on a federal officer, threatening a federal law enforcement officer, obstruction of the due administration of justice, interference with interstate commerce by extortion, and interstate travel in aid of extortion. The indictment also alleges five counts of criminal forfeiture which upon conviction would require forfeiture of property derived from the proceeds of the crimes totaling at least $3 million, as well as the firearms and ammunition possessed and used on April 12, 2014.
Charges against the original five defendants, Cliven D. Bundy, 69, of Bunkerville, Nev., Ryan C. Bundy, 43, of Mesquite, Nev., Ammon E. Bundy, 40, of Emmet, Idaho, Ryan W. Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Mont., and Peter T. Santilli, Jr., 50, of Cincinnati, Ohio, remain the same.
The superseding indictment states that the charges result from a massive armed assault against federal law enforcement officers that occurred in and around Bunkerville, Nev., on April 12, 2014. The defendants are alleged to have planned, organized, and led the assault in order to extort the officers into abandoning approximately 400 head of cattle that were in their lawful care and custody. In addition to conspiring among themselves to plan and execute these crimes, the defendants recruited, organized, and led hundreds of other followers in using armed force against law enforcement officers in order to thwart the seizure and removal of Cliven Bundy’s cattle from federal public lands. Bundy had trespassed on the public lands for over 20 years, refusing to obtain the legally-required permits or pay the required fees to keep and graze his cattle on the land.
The superseding indictment charges that Cliven Bundy was the leader, organizer, and chief beneficiary of the conspiracy, and possessed ultimate authority over the conspiratorial operations and received the economic benefits of the extortion. The remaining defendants are charged as leaders and organizers who conspired with Bundy to achieve his criminal objectives.
The maximum penalties for the charges are stated below.
Conspiracy to Commit an Offense Against the United States – 5 years, $250,000 fine
Conspiracy to Impede and Injure a Federal Law Enforcement Officer – 6 years, $250,000 fine
Assault on a Federal Law Enforcement Officer – 20 years, $250,000 fine
Threatening a Federal Law Enforcement Officer – 10 years, $250,000 fine
Use and Carry of a Firearm in Relation to a Crime of Violence – 5 years minimum and consecutive
Obstruction of the Due Administration of Justice - 10 years, $250,000 fine
Interference with Interstate Commerce by Extortion - 20 years, $250,000 fine
Interstate Travel in Aid of Extortion – 20 years, $250,000 fine
The case is being investigated by the FBI and the Bureau of Land Management. It is being prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorneys Steven W. Myhre and Nicholas D. Dickinson and Special Assistant U.S. Attorneys Nadia J. Ahmed and Erin M. Creegan.
The public is reminded that an indictment contains only charges and is not evidence of guilt. The defendants are presumed innocent and entitled to a fair trial at which the government has the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
HoneyBadger
03-04-2016, 17:56
Posted without comment. Facts only.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-nv/pr/fourteen-additional-defendants-charged-felony-crimes-related-2014-standoff-nevada
The defendants are alleged to have planned, organized, and led the assault in order to extort the officers into abandoning approximately 400 head of cattle that were in their lawful care and custody. In addition to conspiring among themselves to plan and execute these crimes, the defendants recruited, organized, and led hundreds of other followers in using armed force against law enforcement officers in order to thwart the seizure and removal of Cliven Bundy’s cattle from federal public lands. Bundy had trespassed on the public lands for over 20 years, refusing to obtain the legally-required permits or pay the required fees to keep and graze his cattle on the land.
This is clearly a well-planned and patient strategy to make an example out of Bundy and anyone who dared to stand next to him in 2014. It'll be interesting to see if the trials get any publicity/media attention and if so, if it will just turn Bundy and his co-conspirators into "martyrs" for the anti-BLM crowd. When an individual makes the government mad, and the government is in charge of that individual's trial (including the media coverage of it), I don't see how the individual can get a fair trial.
Video shows cellphone footage in sync with aerial footage we've all seen. Sounds like Lavoy was saying " You're gonna have to shoot me" over and over until they did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLHiU8gYWY
hollohas
03-08-2016, 17:28
I had thought that maybe he was trying to direct fire away from the truck when he got out and so quickly moved so far away from the truck with his hands up. The video might agree, but hard to say. You can hear the first bullets hit the truck prior to it crashing and then even more hit the truck just as he was getting out with his hands up. It's indisputable in this video that they started shooting BEFORE he reached for his jacket. The rounds fired while the truck was still in motion can be justified, the shots fired as he reached into his jacket can be justified, but rounds fired while he exited with hands up cannot be.
And then there is this...apparently the FBI may have LIED about that fact...
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html
An FBI agent is suspected of lying about firing twice at Robert "LaVoy" Finicum and may have gotten help from four other FBI agents in covering up afterward, authorities revealed Tuesday.
The bullets didn't hit Finicum and didn't contribute to his death, but now all five unnamed agents, part of an elite national unit, are under criminal investigation by the U.S. Justice Department. Inspector General Michael Horowitz is leading the independent inquiry.
Officer statements and cellphone video taken by Cox from inside the truck showed that Finicum repeatedly ignored police orders, first at the traffic stop and then after he crashed trying to elude officers. He nearly ran over an FBI agent before stalling in a roadside snowbank.
What happened in just seconds after that crash could lead to criminal charges against the FBI agents.
Cox's video showed that one shot hit the truck's left rear passenger window as Finicum stepped out. At the time, Finicum appeared to have his hands at least at shoulder height.
Investigators later established that the bullet entered the truck through the roof before shattering the window and concluded it was fired by an FBI agent. Another bullet from the same FBI agent apparently went wild and missed the truck altogether, the investigation showed.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_lie_uncove.html#incart_maj-story-1
Investigators from the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office could account for bullet holes in the left front hood, the driver's side mirror and the front grille. They came from the automatic weapon of a state trooper who had fired three times at the truck as Finicum raced at 70 mph toward a police roadblock on Jan. 26.
The angle of a fourth bullet hole didn't match the others.
An elaborate computer analysis, a review of the FBI aerial video of the shooting scene and a video from a passenger in Finicum's pickup produced a result that startled the team poring over evidence into Finicum's fatal shooting that day.
The fourth round, police concluded, was fired by an FBI agent who subsequently twice denied to investigators ever firing his gun. As the investigation proceeded, detectives determined he also fired a second time, but didn't hit anything at the scene.
The discovery of that gunfire and conduct afterward by the agent and four other agents have triggered a criminal investigation that could result in the prosecution of all five. The agents all serve on the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team. Authorities on Tuesday released few details about the matter and didn't identify the agents by name.
Bullet hole in the ROOF of the truck? Airborn sniper?? The aerial footage was the wrong angle for the shot to have come from there. Was there another aerial asset or perhaps the FBI agent was just at some elevated position...?
As far as roof, was there anyone on top of a vehicle? Or the vehicle did some jumping and ended up at a bit of an angle didn't it? Thru the roof doesn't have to mean straight on down, could easy just hit straight on to the vehicle highish on the roof and deflected down, again especially if the vehicle was at any kind of angle to the shooter..... or rereview film for tree stands. Dunno.
hollohas
03-08-2016, 19:32
It most definitely didn't come straight down. It came through the roof and out the window. Truck may have been at a bit of an angle.
Dunno.
I was just curious. The angle and origination of the shot don't really matter, I was just thinking out loud (via my fingers).
hollohas
03-09-2016, 15:38
The rounds fired at the vehicle are not justified. Setting up a road block on a corner like that - officers are responsible for their own safety. Spike strips or something else should have been utilized to disable the vehicle. The truck did not accelerate and drive towards any officers. The retard diving into the path of the truck doesn't justify gunfire either (and they were firing before that as far as I can tell). They continued to fire at the truck with absolutely no threat present... I don't believe they put 10+ gas canisters in there. Clearly, they were shooting into the windshield at one part while everyone was ducking down.
Officers don't have ROE to just unload into a vehicle like that... there can be any number of occupants in there, and there were, including children.
You're right.
frankly this looks to me like it was all planned and went down the way they intended. The barricaded road...when the vehicle headed towards the snow an officer dived in front of it to force them to head into deeper snow. Then there is the officer that steps out from the trees and shoots the fellow in the back. There is no real reason for that officer to be that far out off the road hiding in the trees unless it was to shoot at whoever would end up stuck in that snow.
Delfuego
03-09-2016, 16:13
frankly this looks to me like it was all planned and went down the way they intended.
[tinhat]
kidicarus13
03-09-2016, 16:23
http://freedomfromgovernment.org/deadmans-roadblock-shocks-the-consience/
This is appropriately deemed a Deadman’s Roadblock because there was no alternative course of travel and the Roadblock was placed at the end of a blind turn in which the driver could not see the roadblock with sufficient time to react and effect a stop before colliding with the components of the roadblock.
hollohas
03-09-2016, 16:45
http://freedomfromgovernment.org/deadmans-roadblock-shocks-the-consience/
(http://freedomfromgovernment.org/deadmans-roadblock-shocks-the-consience/<br />)
This is appropriately deemed a Deadman’s Roadblock because there was no alternative course of travel and the Roadblock was placed at the end of a blind turn in which the driver could not see the roadblock with sufficient time to react and effect a stop before colliding with the components of the roadblock.
That's a good read. I figured as much, but didn't have any knowledge to back that up.
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/12805660_975416879201787_4009582008201680836_n.jpg ?oh=91e7c19a914c450f8ec0ddcb0b1de8c2&oe=5751A333
Not sure if they did in fact disarm him between the time of the shooting and the examination but this picture is certainly interesting.
What's so interesting. They would have pulled the gun before coroner. Was other shooting threads where it's covered I think where it was common to cuff suspects when shot. Unclear if it was only if they knew still alive for moment or just regardless.
What's so interesting. They would have pulled the gun before coroner. Was other shooting threads where it's covered I think where it was common to cuff suspects when shot. Unclear if it was only if they knew still alive for moment or just regardless.
Yeah, I glanced over the part where they say the body is on the stretcher. It makes sense they would remove his sidearm.
Regardless.... If you watch the video he steps out of the vehicle with his hands up and the window shatters from a gun shot. Whether he was reaching for a gun or not when they actually shot him..... Who knows....
Bad situation all around.
hollohas
03-11-2016, 11:46
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160311/4e4d31d02b6c3dd48df0b3402c5901eb.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160311/05e30545e10723ede077de46f123dce8.jpg
hollohas
03-11-2016, 17:03
Redacted SD investigation/report.
http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/assets/pdf/Finicum_Redacted_Web_3102016.pdf
Article regarding how/why the arrest location was chosen.
http://www.bluemountaineagle.com/Local_News/20160310/documents-osp-moved-fatal-traffic-stop-to-avoid-grant-county-sheriff
Documents: OSP moved fatal traffic stop to avoid Grant County sheriff
This thread is a first for me. I've probably typed out a dozen posts only to delete them.
The two shots fired by FBI officials will be the subject of another investigation, because the agents did not initially disclose firing at Finicum.
Just wow.
HoneyBadger
03-11-2016, 23:35
Just wow.
I bet those guys are as guilty as Hillary, and will be prosecuted in a similar fashion, if at all.
hollohas
03-12-2016, 09:24
I'm continually amazed by how inept the HRT is. They're always described as "elite" but they screw up everything they do. They have all the best training (supposedly), all the best toys, unlimited resorces...
But when it came time to actually do something this asshole fired two rounds, (without cause) and both missed his target. One round didn't hit a damn thing. The HRT yahoo couldn't manage to do either task correctly. He couldn't manage to hold his fire until justified and he couldn't manage to put his rounds on target.
Then the entire bunch couldn't manage to provide a truthful report.
Not exactly "elite". What a bunch of wannabe clowns.
http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03/13/lavoys-widow-jeanette-finicum-to-file-wrongful-death-suit-against-state-police-we-have-evidence-that-will-shock-the-conscience-2/
LaVoy Finicum’s widow, Jeanette Finicum (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03/11/this-evidence-will-shock-the-conscience-lavoy-finicums-widow-to-file-wrongful-death-suit/), announced this week that she would be pursuing a wrongful death lawsuit against officials in Oregon. Her husband was murdered on January 26, 2016 in an ambush (http://freedomoutpost.com/enhanced-video-shows-lavoy-finicum-point-out-agent-that-took-first-shot-at-him/) orchestrated by the Oregon State Police and the FBI (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03/11/5-elite-national-fbi-agents-under-criminal-investigation-for-shots-fired-at-lavoy-finicum-and-possible-cover-up/). The Oregon State Police are attributed with the fatal shots.
According to the autopsy report of LaVoy Finicum (http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf), which was conducted by Clifford C. Nelson, MD, Finicum was shot multiple times in the back. And we know from the video that was taken from Shawna Cox’s cell phone (http://freedomoutpost.com/new-synced-video-of-eyewitness-confirms-story-about-lavoy-finicum-murder-as-fbi-agents-are-under-investigation-for-possible-misconduct-video/) that more shots were fired than just those that struck Finicum (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03/10/does-this-shocking-cell-phone-footage-from-inside-the-truck-when-lavoy-finicum-was-shot-disprove-the-fbis-story/). In fact, FBI agents are under investigation (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/03/11/5-elite-national-fbi-agents-under-criminal-investigation-for-shots-fired-at-lavoy-finicum-and-possible-cover-up/) for at least two rounds they fired.
Finicum was shot through the shoulder in the back, through the back into his chest and through the back into his abdomen.
hollohas
03-16-2016, 16:44
I'm filtering through the 600 pages of emails and text messages that have been released...check out who was personally checking in on the OR Governor...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160316/000a63e14ae74131ac9cfcd4f8c481df.jpg
hollohas
03-16-2016, 18:10
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/bullet_casings_disappear_from.html
A state trooper later described to investigators seeing two rifle casings in the area where the agents were posted. Detectives tasked with collecting evidence didn't find the casings, police reports indicate.
FBI aerial surveillance video shows that before the detectives could get there, the FBI agents searched the area with flashlights and then huddled, according to law enforcement sources who have seen the video. The group then broke and one agent appeared to bend over twice and pick up something near where the two shots likely were taken, the sources told The Oregonian/OregonLive.
GilpinGuy
03-16-2016, 22:49
We're rapidly turning into a bananna republic.
sellersm
03-17-2016, 13:57
What, exactly, is a "UN free zone"? And why doesn't the FBI want it to exist?
http://northwestlibertynews.com/sworn-officers-choose-united-nations-us-constitution-murder-levoy-finicum/
We're rapidly turning into a bananna republic.
The FBI only murdered one person this time. They are improving every time. Things are looking up!
Statements from the officers involved in the shooting:
http://northwestlibertynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/FinicumReport.pdf
Jury acquits leaders of Oregon standoff of federal charges (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jury-acquits-leaders-of-oregon-standoff-of-federal-charges/ar-AAjuxZf?li=BBnb7Kz)
BushMasterBoy
10-27-2016, 18:44
And justice for all!
HoneyBadger
10-27-2016, 19:24
And justice for all!
Yeah, except for the old guy who was murdered after the setup chase/ambush.
//Break break//
I think it's very interesting to see how the media covered this event vs how the media is covering the pipeline protest in North Dakota, where protesters have been attacked with dogs and intimidated with armored vehicles commanded by armed private security contractors...
hollohas
10-28-2016, 07:30
I read a report that there were more FBI informants at the refuge than the number of "militia" that were charged.
FBI informants were the camp cooks, they came to help stand "guard". They even sent an informant acting as a friendly to do firearms and security training for the protesters.
Know your friends. Don't trust anyone else.
No wonder they gave them so much leeway.
I read a report that there were more FBI informants at the refuge than the number of "militia" that were charged.
FBI informants were the camp cooks, they came to help stand "guard". They even sent an informant acting as a friendly to do firearms and security training for the protesters.
Know your friends. Don't trust anyone else.
You mean JoeBob48 from RednecksandGuns.com might not be able to be vetted when he shows up and says he is JoeBob48 from X forum, or even that JoeBob48 is someone to be trusted?
Shocking :)
-Jon
No wonder they gave them so much leeway.
True Believers can easily be led into the trap of a plan appearing to be successful. "See Jimmy, they're afraid of us!" No, Cletus, we're surrounded. lol
‘Off the charts unbelievable': Will acquittal of Oregon refuge occupiers embolden extremists, militias? (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/%E2%80%98off-the-charts-unbelievable-will-acquittal-of-oregon-refuge-occupiers-embolden-extremists-militias/ar-AAjvWDD?li=BBnbcA1)
“I had been telling my client you can count on being convicted,” said Matthew Schindler, a lawyer for one of the men on trial for the armed takeover of Oregon’s Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. “You don’t walk into a federal court and win a case like this. It just doesn’t happen.”
But win they did and even Schindler thought it “off the charts unbelievable,” he told the Seattle Times. (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/verdict-near-in-malheur-wildlife-refuge-standoff-trial/)
“I fear this ruling will embolden other militants to use the threat of violence and I worry for the safety of employees at our public land- management agencies,” said John Horning (http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/verdict-near-in-malheur-wildlife-refuge-standoff-trial/), executive director of WildEarth Guardians, in a statement. “It is entirely possible there will be threats or intimidations from militants that believe such actions are justified by this verdict.”
When the shoe is on the other foot, those that are currently concerned about this ruling don't seem to mind.
Zundfolge
10-28-2016, 09:08
And justice for all!
Yeah, except for the old guy who was murdered after the setup chase/ambush.
In general I agree with the cause of the Oregon protestors, but Robert Finicum got his ass shot by drawing a gun in front of the cops after a chase. He's no more innocent than Michael Brown (well Brown was an outright useless thug, so maybe Eric Garner is a better parallel).
hollohas
10-28-2016, 10:51
The bullet holes in the truck, that I can see, came after he got out...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/94323df631d997e724e35119fc0587c0.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/89330062f6547b59f14a785452bbb886.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/8c72b97523b81443896c129e8cfc9145.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/3a04e94638790717dd040ab3749eba0a.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/0e59aabb49a5df2875a5b4f6444ce4ea.jpg
...unless they were firing from positions that had no view of him.
That roadblock was effed up. Period.
DavieD55
10-28-2016, 18:48
I never saw any evidence that he drew a firearm - they never even alleged that as far as I know, the federal official story was he was "reaching" in his pocket for one. Even then, the drone video really didn't evidence for or against it. I didn't see anything in the video that justified a shoot imho at the moment the triggers were pulled.We are talking multiple officers from positions of cover with distance and long guns; and they riddled him claiming he was reaching for a revolver. I didn't see any wild-west motion to draw. The video taken from inside the SUV is quite shocking, IIRC demonstrating entirely an unacceptable response irrelevant to finicum. At best, there was "less lethal" being fired at them right away without proper cause [That kind of less lethal can still be lethal]. At worst, the SUV was under fire with children in it before he ever stepped out of it or demonstrated any possibility of a threat beyond previously refusing to stop.
The road block was also fashioned quite dangerously around a blind curve, risking the lives of officers and the occupants of the vehicles. I don't think the actions of the feds in regards to that stop is appropriate for many reasons, it was a federal clusterf***.
Comparing that to Michael Brown is not a good comparison at all.
He didn't draw a firearm. It was a state sanctioned assassination that was carried out as a way to intimidate and shut down any further protesting from people who were en route from all around the country as the protesters were gaining more support.
Agents provoked the attack by shooting at his truck first, which he tried to escape from giving the illusion that he was the aggressor via the drone cam, then they made him go off the road with their road block, shot him dead and said he reached for a gun.
DavieD55
10-28-2016, 19:08
‘Off the charts unbelievable': Will acquittal of Oregon refuge occupiers embolden extremists, militias? (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/%E2%80%98off-the-charts-unbelievable-will-acquittal-of-oregon-refuge-occupiers-embolden-extremists-militias/ar-AAjvWDD?li=BBnbcA1)
When the shoe is on the other foot, those that are currently concerned about this ruling don't seem to mind.
The hostile militaristic takeover of private property in the name of saving the wildlife and or water is pretty militant in hindsight.
And the justice system fails yet again....
hollohas
10-31-2016, 16:25
They will be found guilty during their trial in NV. Given the number of informants at the refuge in OR, I don't suspect the prosecution pressed all that hard for convictions...doing so may have required outing more than the 3 informants that they did.
The standoff in NV was much more organic. I don't suspect the feds have to worry too much about outing informants in that case. The situation developed quick enough there that getting informants in place would have been hard. Plus, there are pictures everywhere of folks with guns pointed at the feds during that situation. No need for informants. That situation was indeed an armed game of chicken and the feds ducked first.
The feds will get their conviction. OR wasn't the battle they really wanted to win. They want payback for NV.
Completely agree with the above.
Juries are funny things. No one can ever be totally certain what a jury will give them at the end of a trial. Selecting jury members is extremely important for both sides of any case.
If you want to gamble, Wall Street and Las Vegas have more consistent results than most juries.
He didn't draw a firearm.
He reached for a gun, it was plain as day. Just like if some guy threatens a cop and then points at them as if he's holding a pistol, he deserved what he got for being an idiot.
I think there is a big difference between a stupid action causing a predictable and justifiable reaction, and deserving said reaction.
Perhaps, but some of the people on this forum will support it, with phrases like "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and the like.
He reached for a gun, it was plain as day.
Did I miss some photos or an article somewhere? I have yet to see photos or a description of the weapon he was carrying.
Did I miss some photos or an article somewhere? I have yet to see photos or a description of the weapon he was carrying.
Not only that, but I think it's safe to question the prudential nature of the entire situation. Seems they fabricated an unnecessarily escalated situation.
HoneyBadger
11-01-2016, 08:24
Not only that, but I think it's safe to question the prudential nature of the entire situation. Seems they fabricated an unnecessarily escalated situation.
I think everyone here would agree with this. It was clearly an ambush.
Just re-read most of the Deschutes, OR Sheriff's report, although redacted. Coroner's report shows all 3 gunshots into Finicum were in the back. Statements from officers indicated that they had seen earlier TV coverage with Finicum wearing a shoulder holster and they had that expectation in the encounter. Since I still cannot place the shots and Finicum's movements, I can't determine if he's reaching or reacting to being shot in the left shoulder and neck.
The Wikipedia article for Finicum sources that report claiming that he had a semi-automatic pistol in his pocket, but I can't find that information in the sourced information.
hollohas
11-01-2016, 09:32
I think everyone here would agree with this. It was clearly an ambush.
^This.
There was no reason to initiate the 1st attempt to stop so far from the roadblock. They obviously assumed he'd run otherwise they wouldn't have planned the roadblock. And since they thought a roadblock was necessary, then the 1st attempt to stop was unnecessary. Just let them drive on their marry way at the safe speed they were until they reached the roadblock, then apprehend them there.
Did they think he was going to drive at white bronco speeds after running from the 1st stop? Because that would be a dumb assumption considering they knew he'd run. The location was poorly planned for safety.
There had to be a reason they did it the way they did. I'm guessing, since we now know the vehicle that didn't run contained an informant, they initiated the 1st stop where they did so the informant could get out safely. They didn't want him to get to the roadblock where there was the potential for a shootout that would put him in danger. But still, IMO, the location for the roadblock was extremely dangerous and acted as a catalyst for the escalation for force.
Did I miss some photos or an article somewhere? I have yet to see photos or a description of the weapon he was carrying.
Did you watch the helicopter video from that day? 6 seconds in, he reaches cross draw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5J9NHAiC4E
Did the officer in front see him pull something out? Because the guy in back with no view, and not the front, with view, is the one who shot. If so, why didn't the officer in front shoot if he saw him pull out a pistol? And if he didn't see that (since there was nothing in his hand that I can see from the video), why did the officer with no view not follow the lead of the officer with a view in not shooting (since he had no view and thus no reason to do so)? Did he reach in his coat (or move his arm to keep balance, or whatever), yes. Did he remove anything from said coat? Not that I can see, and frankly, neither could the guy who shot him. Was there a lack of communication? (WHY) Was it because one guy (front) didn't even have his damn pistol drawn and instead has his taser out (WHY)? A lot of crappy questions here that shouldn't have had a need to be asked if they'd not done the dumb.
Make no mistake, I thought the entire protest and the actions of the protesters was lacking prudence as well, but I cannot see how this was a good shoot. From fabricating an unnecessary escalated situation, to shooting a guy in the back when you cannot see him having a weapon and your partner isn't shooting despite a view (which would be different perhaps if no officer had a front view), the whole thing just smacks of an agenda to kill a man.
Myspacebarsuddenlyquitworking.Shit.
[snip]
Do you even immediate action, bro?
Myspacebarsuddenlyquitworking.Shit.
I'm having that issue on my MacBook Pro using Chrome since upgrading to Sierra. I'm back to Safari for consistent spacebar function.
Bailey Guns
11-02-2016, 06:56
This thread is a bigger train wreck than most political threads.
Stumbled upon an interesting blog concerning the occupation trial:
http://outpost-of-freedom.com/blog/
The media has moved on, but they are still stirring it up in Oregon.
http://canadafreepress.com/article/fbi-agent-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-rancher-lavoy-finicum
“A year-long investigation prompted charges of making a false statement with the intent to obstruct justice against the agent, the Oregonian reported.
“He was not immediately identified pending a federal court appearance Wednesday in Portland.
“Oregon state troopers noted multiple gun rifle casings where the FBI agents had been standing during the Jan. 26, 2016, shooting. During a later probe, the Deschutes County Sheriff’s Office determined one agent fired two shots at Finicum’s pickup truck after it crashed into a snowbank. The team of federal agents then covered up the shooting by removing the casings, the sheriff alleged.
“The initial shots the agent fired failed to hit Finicum, 54. He was fatally shot moments later when troopers opened fire.
“One bullet struck his heart.
“Finicum was traveling in a convoy with militia leaders, the brothers Ammon and Ryan Bundy, to a community meeting. Finicum, a self-proclaimed spokesman for the armed group, helped seize the Malheur Wildlife Refuge for about a month in southeast Oregon.”
hollohas
06-28-2017, 21:10
Wow. Surprised. But I remember the State police said early on that someone witnessed the feds picking up cases...hard to sweep that under the rug.
Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-pardons-oregon-men-whose-case-sparked-wildlife-refuge-takeover/ar-AAzR7Rb)
WASHINGTON — President Trump on Tuesday pardoned a pair of Oregon cattle ranchers who had been serving sentences for arson on federal land — sentences that set off the armed occupation of a wildlife refuge in 2016.
Dwight L. Hammond, now 76, and his son, Steven D. Hammond, 49, became a cause célèbre that inspired an antigovernment group’s battle with the federal government over its control of rural land in Oregon. The occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge resulted in the death of a rancher from Arizona.
The Hammonds have a long history of conflict with the federal government, but many felt their sentences for the 2001 and 2006 fires were unfair.
“The Hammonds are multigeneration cattle ranchers in Oregon imprisoned in connection with a fire that leaked onto a small portion of neighboring public grazing land,” Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House press secretary, said in a statement. “The evidence at trial regarding the Hammonds’ responsibility for the fire was conflicting, and the jury acquitted them on most of the charges.”
The pardons will shave some time off the Hammonds’ five-year sentences — Dwight Hammond has served three years and Steven Hammond has served four. But the pardons suggest the Trump administration’s support of ranchers in the battle over federal lands and also undo an Obama administration appeal to impose longer sentences for the Hammonds.
“Awesome, awesome, awesome,” said Ryan Bundy who helped lead the occupation of the federal wildlife refuge near the Hammond ranch that was meant to protest the government’s treatment of the Hammonds and grew into a protest of federal land policies. “It’s been a long time coming. It’s been a long time coming. That is good news.”
hollohas
07-10-2018, 19:42
^Great news!
I was pleased to see this.
Bailey Guns
07-10-2018, 20:16
Pretty interesting, if nothing else.
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