View Full Version : Dude gets tied up, breaks free, shoots bad guys
hollohas
01-24-2016, 17:40
http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2016/01/24/man-crashes-into-house-after-being-shot/79265402/
JEFFERSON COUNTY - One person was shot and killed in Littleton Sunday morning following a robbery attempt.
The incident happened on the 5400 block of South Taft Court. The Jefferson County Sheriff's Office says the homeowner was trying to sell an item on Craigslist when the two men who responded tried to rob him. The homeowner was tied up but broke free and confronted the suspects with a gun.
One man was shot while driving away and he crashed into a house after losing control of the car. He died a short time later.
Another suspect is still at large in a gold Mustang. It may have bullet holes in the side.
Glad he got them. Hope they don't file charges against the good guy for shooting at the cars. If someone ties you up in your own home you should get a few free shots at them, no questions asked.
It'll be interesting to see what the DA decides to do.
BPTactical
01-24-2016, 17:56
It'll be interesting to see what the DA decides to do.
Yeah, I would not want to be in the "victims" shoes.
It seems pretty clear the perps were retreating, not the right time to be dropping the hammer.
What was he selling? less then a mile from my house. wow
Yeah, I would not want to be in the "victims" shoes.
It seems pretty clear the perps were retreating, not the right time to be dropping the hammer.
Exactly.
Hopefully he won't get charged. He was tied up after all, that has to be worth something.
BushMasterBoy
01-24-2016, 18:15
Please let forum members be on the jury, if there ever is a stupid trial.
Great-Kazoo
01-24-2016, 19:02
Please let forum members be on the jury, if there ever is a stupid trial.
No it's not. Based off a brief news story, he was shooting at a threat that already left. They cover any of Use of Deadly Force in your CCW class?
hollohas
01-24-2016, 19:10
Sounds like the dude that got shot and crashed did so while stealing the victim's car.
That explains why there were two cars.
Story's lacking a lot of details, where's my surprised face.....
Bailey Guns
01-24-2016, 19:47
No it's not. Based off a brief news story, he was shooting at a threat that already left. They cover any of Use of Deadly Force in your CCW class?
I don't necessarily disagree and I'm really familiar with the law. HOWEVER...
There is a precedent for this scenario being a justifiable shooting under the "Make My Day" law. Not that I'd want to chance it with a jury myself. But the 2004 case of Gary Lee Hill is very similar:
The women returned with Padilla’s boyfriend, Knott, and Ash’s boyfriend, Anthony Padilla. The four went to Hill’s basement room where he was asleep and assaulted him. Amanda Padilla punched Hill in the head, opening a wound with brass knuckles. When they left Hill’s house, he got a high-powered rifle, loaded it and fired once from the porch into the car Knott was driving. Knott crashed the car into a house and died of a gunshot wound to the back. The jury foreman, who asked not to be identified, said jurors spent a lot of time discussing the law that allows people to use lethal force against an intruder. “That was the bulk of our deliberation,” he said. The foreman said the Make My Day law offers no clear “line” where an intruder must be before deadly force can be used. (emphasis mine) “We hope everyone understands this was a tragic case no matter what verdict we reached. There was no good outcome,” he said.
Source: http://gazette.com/springs-man-acquitted-in-shooting-under-make-my-day-law/article/9201
This was a very controversial case at the time that resulted in much talk about changing the law. Fortunately, it wasn't changed.
And the jury was correct. There isn't any thing in the statute that says force must be used against the intruder inside the home or in any other particular location.
Story's lacking a lot of details, where's my surprised face.....
This is still under investigation and the SO isn't going to release a whole lot. This could easily go before a grand jury before the DA will decide whether to proceed and with what charges, or not. They don't want too much info out before these decisions are made.
D-bag got what he deserved. Too bad he didn't shoot them both.
Reason #357 to avoid Craigslist.
DenverGP
01-24-2016, 20:32
They presumably had the guys house keys, and clearly knew where he lived, so he could make the argument he was in fear they would come back...
Great-Kazoo
01-24-2016, 21:31
I don't necessarily disagree and I'm really familiar with the law. HOWEVER...
There is a precedent for this scenario being a justifiable shooting under the "Make My Day" law. Not that I'd want to chance it with a jury myself. But the 2004 case of Gary Lee Hill is very similar:
Source: http://gazette.com/springs-man-acquitted-in-shooting-under-make-my-day-law/article/9201
This was a very controversial case at the time that resulted in much talk about changing the law. Fortunately, it wasn't changed.
And the jury was correct. There isn't any thing in the statute that says force must be used against the intruder inside the home or in any other particular location.
That was a One Shot versus multiple shots fired . Until "we" know the full story, I'll avoid armchair QB'ing.
Bailey Guns
01-24-2016, 21:36
Doesn't matter how many shots were fired if he successfully argues "make my day". But that's not the point. The point is everyone seems to insist this or that must be done this way or that way to be within the bounds of the law. The "make my day" law says one thing but it's been widely interpreted in many different cases over the years that clearly didn't follow the letter of the law.
We won't know it's justified until the DA says he won't prosecute or a jury finds him not guilty.
Teufelhund
01-24-2016, 22:11
Why in the hell would you give your address to someone on Craigslist?! I sell shit on there all the time, but I don't invite strangers to my freaking home, where my wife and kids sleep! Meet me at the crowded grocery store parking lot in the daylight, and keep your hands where I can see them.
BushMasterBoy
01-24-2016, 22:11
No it's not. Based off a brief news story, he was shooting at a threat that already left. They cover any of Use of Deadly Force in your CCW class?
In the interest of national security, the above not apply.
Great-Kazoo
01-24-2016, 22:18
In the interest of national security, the above not apply.
OK G. Gordon Liddy. what ever you say. A simple yes or no suffices.
Why in the hell would you give your address to someone on Craigslist?! I sell shit on there all the time, but I don't invite strangers to my freaking home, where my wife and kids sleep! Meet me at the crowded grocery store parking lot in the daylight, and keep your hands where I can see them.
Most people aren't going to load up a treadmill or riding lawnmower and take it to a gas station, for example.
Teufelhund
01-24-2016, 22:28
Most people aren't going to load up a treadmill or riding lawnmower and take it to a gas station, for example.
That's a good point. I think it makes more sense to go rent a $20 flatbed truck from Home Depot to cart around whatever you're selling, than to invite total strangers to your home, especially considering how prolific this type of story has become.
That's a good point. I think it makes more sense to go rent a $20 flatbed truck from Home Depot to cart around whatever you're selling, than to invite total strangers to your home, especially considering how prolific this type of story has become.
I partially agree. I think this is like any other news story. We hear it often enough because Craigslist transactions in general are happening thousands of times a day. We hear stories about bad police interactions, robberies, terrorism, etc every single day as part of the 24-hour news cycle, but mostly people aren't wronged by police, robbed, or victims of terrorism.
All that said, everyone should have a pal with them and be extra on guard for Craigslist, or any interactions with strangers.
kidicarus13
01-24-2016, 22:40
I'd be interested to know what the victim was selling. Was it a baby crib or a Rolex Mariner?
I think if I was selling something that could be carried by one person, and two dudes came to the door, I'd request that one of them can wait in the car or on the porch.
ColoradoTJ
01-25-2016, 01:18
I think if I was selling something that could be carried by one person, and two dudes came to the door, I'd request that one of them can wait in the car or on the porch.
Good point.
wctriumph
01-25-2016, 08:08
I sell stuff off of Craigslist here and there and I sell at my residence for most of it. On two occasions there were three guys that got out of the car and I asked that those that were not the buyer to stay by or in their car. They did and the sales went off without a hitch.
Once when selling a motorcycle, the proposed buyer said that he could only meet at night, after 10 PM. I agreed and three guys showed up. While one guy looked at the motorcycle the other two started looking around at other stuff and I asked that they wait outside and I was pretty much ignored. I put my hand in my pocket and grabbed my 442 Airweight (in my pocket), backed up against my tool box and asked again very firmly that they exit the garage. The looking at the motorcycle said, "there isn't anything here, lets go". I immediately called my local LE and explained the deal and gave an accurate description of the three of them and the vehicle they were driving and the direction they were traveling. The next day I was contacted by a detective and he took a report, seems that there were other reports of similar incidents with thefts and assaults in the surrounding areas.
You have to be careful out there and be always on guard, bad guys are everywhere. When I sell remotely, I will usually have my wife with me and so far no problems.
Bailey Guns
01-25-2016, 08:13
Yeah, I've had people at my home to look at/buy something I was selling on CL. Had a lot of flakes, for sure. But no one that even remotely appeared to be a threat. When possible I do try to meet them somewhere other than my home. I always have a buddy with me when someone comes to my home.
hollohas
01-25-2016, 08:29
I've seen pictures floating around the interwebs that show designated and posted internet sale areas in PD parking lots. Don't know where, but sure seems like a great idea.
PS - quick Google search provided a few sources. Here's on in Dallas.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20150909-exchangezones_0909met.ece/BINARY/w620/exchangezones_0909met
And one in Mass.
http://i.imgur.com/GW05GMBl.jpg
I've sold large items (entertainment center, treadmill, playground) on CL before. Also some listed some stuff for free/ you haul it. I don't do it anymore though. If it's not something I can take to a neutral area myself, I don't sell it on CL. I was always careful not to give my address until I was reasonably sure I had a good buyer. But so many flaked and never showed up that I got leery about giving it out at all. The last straw was when a guy that was supposed to come at 5pm one night said he couldn't make it and asked if I could do it @ 7pm. I said I was going to be gone (I wasn't really going anywhere, just didn't want to meet anyone that late on a weeknight). Sure enough, at about 715, a van backed into my driveway and two big guys got out. I assumed they thought the house would be empty. I had a long and secluded driveway but saw them from an upstairs window. I just yelled "can I help you guys?" from the upstairs window. I got an "uh, uh, wrong house. Sorry" and they turned and left.
It's interesting that Craigslist has a no firearm related items policy when the entire Craigslist environment has led to so much robbery, assault, rape, and murder. Not that allowing gun listings would change any of that. Just interesting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Douglas County Sheriff permits exchanges in their parking lot or building.
Douglas County Sheriff permits exchanges in their parking lot or building.
As does Aurora PD
Great-Kazoo
01-25-2016, 11:57
The spouse and I never do an CL or other FTF transactions unarmed. At our home the item is outside for viewing, never inside premises.
[snip]
It's interesting that Craigslist has a no firearm related items policy when the entire Craigslist environment has led to so much robbery, assault, rape, and murder. Not that allowing gun listings would change any of that. Just interesting.
[snip]
So you're saying a gun free zone, even in cyberspace, creates a security vacuum?
How many times do we have to keep learning this lesson?
--
Shooter is likely to get charged. "Imminent harm" isn't imminent when the bad guys are running away.
And this is another way the general public's ignorance on firearms (gun control) hurts them. The victim didn't bring the gun into the situation or learn about the restrictions that are on all of us, but the law will apply to him equally.
I'd do a Craigslist transaction in the local police department parking lot whether they say they allow it or not.
So you're saying a gun free zone, even in cyberspace, creates a security vacuum?
How many times do we have to keep learning this lesson?
No, I'm not saying that. Just making an observation about how meeting someone from Craigslist (and anywhere else online) can be an extremely dangerous event. And about how the anti-gun stance of Craigslist seems contrary to one of the ways to mitigate the risk.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
FYI on Saturday two people in a gold Mustang tried to rip off another cl seller. The Mustang from Sunday was recovered in Federal Heights. Accomplice is still out there.
No, I'm not saying that. Just making an observation about how meeting someone from Craigslist (and anywhere else online) can be an extremely dangerous event. And about how the anti-gun stance of Craigslist seems contrary to one of the ways to mitigate the risk.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think we're saying the same thing.
KevDen2005
01-25-2016, 19:08
As pointed out previously, I would be interested in exactly how quickly the events unfolded from being tied up, untied, then shooting. Was it a rapidly unfolding event? I would also be curious if bad guys produced any type of weapon previous to shooting and immediately previously to shooting.
I think shooter could be in hot water but at the same time I think a lot needs to be answered for. I am very curious as to the outcome. And I hope shooter has consulted with an attorney.
hollohas
01-25-2016, 20:23
From other reports I've read, it sounds like they tied him up, took his keys and went out to steal his car. Sounds like he at least shot at the guy stealing his car while the car was still on his property. Don't know about the other car. I don't know if that makes a difference or where he was in relation to the car, but I suppose he could make the case the car was being used as a weapon.
BPTactical
01-25-2016, 20:47
18-1-706. Use of physical force in defense of property
A person is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the other person to commit theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, but he may use deadly physical force under these circumstances only in defense of himself or another as described in section 18-1-704.
HISTORY: Source: L. 71: R&RE, p. 409, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 40-1-806.
Cross references: For theft, see part 4 of article 4 of this title; for criminal mischief, see § 18-4-501; for criminal tampering, see § § 18-4-505 and 18-4-506.
ANNOTATION
Law reviews. For article, "Self-Defense in Colorado", see 24 Colo. Law. 2717 (1995).
One cannot instantly kill in defense of property. While a man may use all reasonable and necessary force to defend his real and personal estate, of which he is in the actual possession, against another who comes to dispossess him without right, he cannot instantly carry his defense to the extent of killing the aggressor. If no other way is open, he must yield and get himself righted by resort to the law. Bush v. People, 10 Colo. 566, 16 P. 290 (1887) (decided under G. S. § 721).
When instruction on defense appropriate. A defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on an affirmative defense only if evidence in the record supports it. Here record does not support entitlement to instruction. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
18-1-706. Use of physical force in defense of property
A person is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the other person to commit theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, but he may use deadly physical force under these circumstances only in defense of himself or another as described in section 18-1-704.
HISTORY: Source: L. 71: R&RE, p. 409, § 1. C.R.S. 1963: § 40-1-806.
Cross references: For theft, see part 4 of article 4 of this title; for criminal mischief, see § 18-4-501; for criminal tampering, see § § 18-4-505 and 18-4-506.
ANNOTATION
Law reviews. For article, "Self-Defense in Colorado", see 24 Colo. Law. 2717 (1995).
One cannot instantly kill in defense of property. While a man may use all reasonable and necessary force to defend his real and personal estate, of which he is in the actual possession, against another who comes to dispossess him without right, he cannot instantly carry his defense to the extent of killing the aggressor. If no other way is open, he must yield and get himself righted by resort to the law. Bush v. People, 10 Colo. 566, 16 P. 290 (1887) (decided under G. S. § 721).
When instruction on defense appropriate. A defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on an affirmative defense only if evidence in the record supports it. Here record does not support entitlement to instruction. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
So charge him with misdemeanor assault. Or varmint hunting without a proper license. Or disturbing the peace.
theGinsue
01-26-2016, 00:07
Good thing I won't be on that jury. Did he break the law, as written? Yes. Did he do what needed to be done? Absolutely.
Haven't seen many better times to invoke jury nullification as this.
Great-Kazoo
01-26-2016, 00:45
So charge him with misdemeanor assault. Or varmint hunting without a proper license. Or disturbing the peace.
Discharging a firearm in city limits. Possible Reckless Endangerment. A DA with political aspirations might have field day with this. Hopefully he said Attorney, instead of his adrenaline ruling the day.
Bailey Guns
01-26-2016, 07:35
18-1-706. Use of physical force in defense of property
I don't think that's the applicable statute in this case. From the limited info it sounds like at least Kidnapping and Burglary in addition to the Aggravated Robbery. I'd be willing to bet the "Make My Day" law will be brought up here as a defense. Doesn't mean the guy can't be charged...but he has a decent chance to beat any charges with a good attorney and a little luck with a jury. And he should. ASSUMING the home owner is telling the truth and this isn't some sort of drug deal gone wrong or other such nonsense, in my opinion, he shouldn't be charged. Send a message it's open season on assholes committing these types of robberies.
If I had to guess, it was probably the car that they were trying to steal that the homeowner was selling on Craigslist. Just a guess, though.
Someone steals your car from the store parking lot while you are inside the store.
The police catch the thief down the road and he is convicted by a jury for stealing the car.
Should the thief receive the death penalty?
Someone steals your car from the store parking lot while you are inside the store.
The police catch the thief down the road and he is convicted by a jury for stealing the car.
Should the thief receive the death penalty?
False analogy. Someone threatens you with a weapon, ties you up, and attempts to flee in your car after assaulting and robbing you. Do you have the right to defend yourself and your property, and at what point does self defense become criminal assault? THAT is the question. The assailant should have to take into consideration if the possible gains from his course of action are worth the risk to his life and freedom.
There is no such thing as defending yourself against a fleeing individual.
There is no such thing as defending yourself against a fleeing individual.
Not arguing that. Clearly, if the assailant was fleeing, there is no justification for lethal force. But if the assailant was attempting to use the victim's car as a weapon against him(victim runs out and attempts to stop robber from leaving in his car(a bad idea, but it happens all the time), and the robber tries to back over him)? We don't have all the information to properly evaluate this particular situation.
BushMasterBoy
01-26-2016, 12:12
How does one not know the fleeing criminal is simply going to bring his buddies in? Gang members will bring other gang members, especially if they believe you are effectively restrained.
And this case reminds me of this case where occupants of the home were restrained, raped and then burned alive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders
RblDiver
01-26-2016, 12:43
So charge him with misdemeanor assault. Or varmint hunting without a proper license. Or disturbing the peace.
Littering. Can't just go leaving dead aholes around now can you!
Bailey Guns
01-26-2016, 17:16
There is no such thing as defending yourself against a fleeing individual.
Of course there is. Colorado statutes even allow the police to use deadly force against individuals fleeing under certain circumstances.
If you have a reasonable belief that you (or an innocent third person) is in danger of suffering death or serious bodily injury AND you have a reasonable belief that a lesser degree of force is inadequate you may use deadly force to defend yourself. Obviously you're going to have to be able to clearly articulate why the fleeing individual was still a threat, but it's certainly possible.
kidicarus13
01-26-2016, 18:20
Michael Slager... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nrqFaSRclc Oh wait, he's been charged.
cmailliard
01-26-2016, 18:27
Not sure how many shots were fired, but I hear the dead guy had two holes in his neck.
I agree with most, tough to argue "Make my day" in this case. I would hope I would have better control in that situation, but given what happened I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I am re-thinking my wife's decision to sell a kids dresser on Craigslist, anyone need one?
blacklabel
01-26-2016, 18:49
I've straight given things away to charities rather than deal with what CL would bring to my house.
Someone steals your car from the store parking lot while you are inside the store.
The police catch the thief down the road and he is convicted by a jury for stealing the car.
Should the thief receive the death penalty?
Depends on which car he stole.....
In the olden days weren't people hanged for stealing horses? I don't see any difference between a car and a horse. Maybe I just hate thieves.
http://equinelaw.alisonrowe.com/tags/texas-penal-code/
http://www.truewestmagazine.com/was-horse-theft-a-capital-offense-during-the-old-west-era/
Stealing a man’s horse was a serious offense in a land where being left afoot could be fatal. Anti-horse theft associations worked through the legal system to prosecute horse thieves. But when the law did not bring a thief to justice, vigilantes often took charge and hanged thieves.
KestrelBike
01-26-2016, 22:10
In the olden days weren't people hanged for stealing horses? I don't see any difference between a car and a horse. Maybe I just hate thieves.
http://equinelaw.alisonrowe.com/tags/texas-penal-code/
http://www.truewestmagazine.com/was-horse-theft-a-capital-offense-during-the-old-west-era/
I had an ancestor who was hung for horse thievery : (
(and I really hate thieves... have had 2 beloved motorcycles stolen from me long ago)
Any more details released? Curious what kind of weapon he used, I'm thinking maybe an AR or some kind of semiauto rifle/carbine.
I've straight given things away to charities rather than deal with what CL would bring to my house.
That's what we do. Donate to thoes in need.
Great-Kazoo
01-27-2016, 10:20
Any more details released? Curious what kind of weapon he used, I'm thinking maybe an AR or some kind of semi auto rifle/carbine.
It was an AK40glock.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lcjcCJdw66s/UB2kqnyfhdI/AAAAAAAAGlU/hWUcqg0_Jr8/s1600/Humor_funny_journalists_guide_to_firearms_ak47_glo ck.jpg
Someone steals your car from the store parking lot while you are inside the store.
The police catch the thief down the road and he is convicted by a jury for stealing the car.
Should the thief receive the death penalty?
That also applies to every two bit law such as cigarette and alcohol possession. If someone doesn't comply the police may use deadly force.
To be clear, the issue is whenever someone decides another petty law should be passed prohibiting some type of conduct or possession of an item, the issue should be is this worth someone's life if they refuse to comply. Nothing against police.
Yes, the rules are different for leos in the performance of their duties than private individuals. Next.
Great-Kazoo
01-27-2016, 18:46
That also applies to every two bit law such as cigarette and alcohol possession. If someone doesn't comply the police may use deadly force.
You don't want to open that can of worms. May not like the results.
Bailey Guns
01-27-2016, 20:21
hīˈpərbəlē
Rearing it's ugly head.
How To Pronounce Perbele In English (http://www.howtosay.co.in/pronounce/perbele-in-english/)
Second suspect in custody.
Bailey Guns
01-30-2016, 18:22
I dealt with that guy when I worked for the county...probably 20 years ago. Total asshole. I figured he'd be dead by now, most likely from a cop's bullet.
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