View Full Version : Paperwork Clarification
When on has a new tool, I know one is supposed to keep the tax stamp COPY with the tool. The original goes into a safe/etc. My question is about the Trust/form whatever paperwork. Does a copy of that also need to reside with the tool when it goes for a walk?
I've tried Google-fu and received conflicting information. Not sure what statues to actually look up... Sorry for the seemingly stupid question.
DangerLee_Industries
02-08-2016, 16:03
When on has a new tool, I know one is supposed to keep the tax stamp COPY with the tool. The original goes into a safe/etc. My question is about the Trust/form whatever paperwork. Does a copy of that also need to reside with the tool when it goes for a walk?
I've tried Google-fu and received conflicting information. Not sure what statues to actually look up... Sorry for the seemingly stupid question.
Yes it does.
Thank you, so just to clarify again:
The copy of the tax Stamp AND a copy of the Trust BOTH need to stay with the NFA item?
DangerLee_Industries
02-08-2016, 16:58
Thank you, so just to clarify again:
The copy of the tax Stamp AND a copy of the Trust BOTH need to stay with the NFA item?
Yes
You Rock Sir. Thank you very much.
Bear I don't agree with Danger but he is the man with the license to sell these things.
I keep copies of my stamps. 1/4 size and laminated when the toys go for a walk, the copies go.
Danger (not saying you're wrong) but where is it required?
I'll piggyback on what Monky said (does). I do the same as he does, not to say Tim is wrong, but in all of my NFA research I've never found direction that requires the trust documents to be present or an actual instance where an ATF agent required that the documents be produced on demand.
I think this is where the "better to be safe, than sorry" saying comes from. lol
Thanks for the help folks.
DangerLee_Industries
02-08-2016, 20:49
Zero offense taken guys that's how these conversations always go.
I am no lawyer and your experience may vary. I'm simply speaking from the personal experience we had with an agent when my pops was approached at a range in Missouri about 5 years ago. He asked him for a copy of the stamps and the associated Trust.
I always error on the side of caution since the Trust in my mind is part of the "Registration" process and since 30ish pieces of paper don't weigh my range bag down I always keep them with.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration
I always error on the side of caution since the Trust in my mind is part of the "Registration" process and since 30ish pieces of paper don't weigh my range bag down I always keep them with.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-possessor-nfa-firearm-have-show-proof-registration
The approved Form 1/4 is the "application". The trust, in and of itself, is not part of the application. Hence you do not need to have a copy of the trust with you. Further, the Form 1/4 is a tax document so it gets special status on who gets to see it.
Further again, the trust is an estate planning document and there is no reason why local PD, or the ATF, needs to see that upon request. Last further, you want something that ties you to the trust unless the name if the trust is "Firstname Lastname Trust". In my opinion, if it ever gets that far you will not be in a ATF at the range situation - so they can wait for my lawyer to get them a copy of the docs that ties me to the trust.
All that said, I carry a scanned copy of each of my forms on a USB drive on my keychain. Legally, that suffices, until I go to court and a judge says otherwise. Again, if it ever gets to that there is an overwhelming likelihood that my lawyer would already be involved. The nicest I have seen is a reduced size scan/print-out of the document(s) (say 3x5 sized), laminated with a whole punched in them, and carried on a carabiner attached to a range bag. Looks cool, but no one needs to see my business.
As electronic copies of legal documents are typically acceptable I also keep a set on my phone and iPad. Phone is almost always with me so I figure it is probably a decent backup if something happens to the copy of the paperwork.
Great-Kazoo
02-08-2016, 22:50
Is it required, no. It's what your comfort level is.
Said it before, i'll say it again. To Date no LE entity has ever asked for any documentation. Hell most of them have no clue what it is they're looking at, till you tell them. Politely of course.
BUT, if you feel the need to have your trust in hand, do it.
DangerLee_Industries
02-08-2016, 22:59
The approved Form 1/4 is the "application". The trust, in and of itself, is not part of the application. Hence you do not need to have a copy of the trust with you. Further, the Form 1/4 is a tax document so it gets special status on who gets to see it.
Further again, the trust is an estate planning document and there is no reason why local PD, or the ATF, needs to see that upon request. Last further, you want something that ties you to the trust unless the name if the trust is "Firstname Lastname Trust". In my opinion, if it ever gets that far you will not be in a ATF at the range situation - so they can wait for my lawyer to get them a copy of the docs that ties me to the trust.
All that said, I carry a scanned copy of each of my forms on a USB drive on my keychain. Legally, that suffices, until I go to court and a judge says otherwise. Again, if it ever gets to that there is an overwhelming likelihood that my lawyer would already be involved. The nicest I have seen is a reduced size scan/print-out of the document(s) (say 3x5 sized), laminated with a whole punched in them, and carried on a carabiner attached to a range bag. Looks cool, but no one needs to see my business.
FURTHER, FURTHER, FURTHER hopefully pending form 4's don't get delayed.
Maybe I'm just in a foul mood with my back but I generally keep my mouth shut since lots of folks like to be dicks when someone simply asks for help and damn near every single thread with interpretations turns into a pissing match for no reason. I'm not someone that gets off in participating in those discussions and it seems to always be the same folks.
Threads like this are exactly why you rarely see Industry Partners try to help out around here versus just slinging gear. They don't want to get wrapped up in bs and offend potential customers. We are a huge resource and not arm chair quarterbacks so that's a shame if you ask me but don't ask me as someone will try to disprove that.
I bust my ass everyday trying to run a quality and fun shop. While trying to educate, grow the sport, and keep diapers on the babies.
So back to the original simple damn question that doesn't make shit of a difference if someone keeps a few more sheets of paper around for peace of mind....... I simply answered him with my experience where we were asked for it.
Bigbear do what helps you sleep at night buddy and have fun using your gear!
There is zero legal reason to carry any paperwork with you, whether copies of your stamp or trust. You are not obligated to.
As stated above, if you choose to carry either, it's basically a situation where you're keeping insurance on the extremely unlikely chance that someone chooses to ask to see your paperwork. Only ATF can legally ask to see your form. They should never need to see your trust. That being said, any ATF agent or grouchy LEO may choose to take your guns, cans, etc. and ask you to come down to the station and sort it out later. Many years ago, when suppressors and machine guns were less common, it was more likely that some curious LEO would think you were playing with something you shouldn't be playing with. Now, they're everywhere and not exactly uncommon anymore. Chances are near zero that you will have a problem, but not zero.
It doesn't cost you much to keep a copy, whether digital or otherwise in a bag, in your glove box, etc. I used to do that a long time ago when I got my first can and eventually got my 07/02 FFL, but I haven't for many years now. So bottom line is it's a comfort thing for you - doesn't take much effort for the extra comfort, but there's really no legal need to.
As Kazoo mentioned, it's probably worth mentioning that how you conduct yourself may speak to what you need to do. If you're a normal shooter, you'll have no problem showing any ranger/LEO/ATF guy who shows up your new toy, and they'll probably think it's cool and ask where to get one. If on the other hand, it's some idiot kid up barely off a jeep trail shooting tracers in his suppressed machine gun at an old microwave across the hiking trail, etc... well that's another story.
FURTHER, FURTHER, FURTHER hopefully pending form 4's don't get delayed.
Maybe I'm just in a foul mood with my back but I generally keep my mouth shut since lots of folks like to be dicks when someone simply asks for help and damn near every single thread with interpretations turns into a pissing match for no reason. I'm not someone that gets off in participating in those discussions and it seems to always be the same folks.
Threads like this are exactly why you rarely see Industry Partners try to help out around here versus just slinging gear. They don't want to get wrapped up in bs and offend potential customers. We are a huge resource and not arm chair quarterbacks so that's a shame if you ask me but don't ask me as someone will try to disprove that.
I bust my ass everyday trying to run a quality and fun shop. While trying to educate, grow the sport, and keep diapers on the babies.
So back to the original simple damn question that doesn't make shit of a difference if someone keeps a few more sheets of paper around for peace of mind....... I simply answered him with my experience where we were asked for it.
Bigbear do what helps you sleep at night buddy and have fun using your gear!
Yep, it's fair that this argument always comes down to the difference of "what do I have to do?" and "what should I do?" - usually it's not an identical answer!
Probably also worth mentioning that your tax stamp itself may not prove at all that YOU have a right to possess the gun, if challenged. The fact that your suppressor is registered to the "I HATE ATF TRUST" (which is on your form 4) does nothing to connect you as an individual as a right to possess it. A copy of your trust would show your name.
Side note - since you were asking for proof, at least one of the resulting key sections is 26 U.S.C. ยง 5841(e), which as you can see doesn't have a lot of detail.
(a)Central registry
The Secretary shall maintain a central registry of all firearms in the United States which are not in the possession or under the control of the United States. This registry shall be known as the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. The registry shall include—
(1)identification of the firearm;
(2)date of registration; and
(3)identification and address of person entitled to possession of the firearm.
(b)By whom registered
Each manufacturer, importer, and maker shall register each firearm he manufactures, imports, or makes. Each firearm transferred shall be registered to the transferee by the transferor.
(c)How registered
Each manufacturer shall notify the Secretary of the manufacture of a firearm in such manner as may by regulations be prescribed and such notification shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section. Each importer, maker, and transferor of a firearm shall, prior to importing, making, or transferring a firearm, obtain authorization in such manner as required by this chapter or regulations issued thereunder to import, make, or transfer the firearm, and such authorization shall effect the registration of the firearm required by this section.
(d)Firearms registered on effective date of this Act
A person shown as possessing a firearm by the records maintained by the Secretary pursuant to the National Firearms Act in force on the day immediately prior to the effective date of the National Firearms Act of 1968 [1] (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5841#fn002430) shall be considered to have registered under this section the firearms in his possession which are disclosed by that record as being in his possession.
(e)Proof of registration
A person possessing a firearm registered as required by this section shall retain proof of registration which shall be made available to the Secretary upon request.
Wow... Thanks for all the interpretations.
Yall have are a great night.
Roger Ronas
02-09-2016, 00:27
For me, I will be making copies of the Trust and the approved form to keep with each item. I will use National Geographic paper (waterproof, tear and rip proof) and keep under the foam in the hard case of each item.
Roger
Wow... Thanks for all the interpretations.
Yall have are a great night.
Ask an opinion on a gun forum and... ;)
Ask an opinion on a gun forum and... ;)
Right?! Next question: 9 vs .45
I kid, I kid.
In my opinion, better be safe than sorry so I think laminated copies in the case/bag might not be a bad idea.
/Thread closed
Great-Kazoo
02-09-2016, 08:32
Right?! Next question: 9 vs .45
I kid, I kid.
In my opinion, better be safe than sorry so I think laminated copies in the case/bag might not be a bad idea.
/Thread closed
AK-47 [Pop]
Beans in the chili
Oh hell yes... it ain't chili without beans!!! HAHAHAHA
FURTHER, FURTHER, FURTHER hopefully pending form 4's don't get delayed.
Maybe I'm just in a foul mood with my back but I ...
I'm going to take it as just that. Since no one attacked you and almost all of us backed your point about carrying the trust. Hope you feel better.
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